My 3yo is a monster

[PeterPan]

...he has been this way since he learned to crawl, literally.

 

I'm thinking about all the things that *should* have been going on in that scenario and weren't. I'm thinking the book Relationship Development Intervention with Young Children: Social and Emotional Development Activities for Asperger Syndrome, Autism, PDD and NLD would help you. It's going to be play-based and help you connect with him and really know, through a list of steps, what type of connection you're looking for and whether you're getting it. He needs more connection so he's noticing how you're feeling, how others are feeling about his behaviors.

 

A lot of the good therapies are going to be play-based. There's an org Play Project you can look up. If you found someone in that who does ODD, could be STELLAR.

Edited June 9, 2017 by OhElizabeth

[Laura Corin]

Have you considered that your easy kids are the anomaly and THIS behavior is why other parents were complaining about this age? The Attitude Fairy comes at three. Even my super easy kid had some ridiculous moments at that age. (And a few more between 14 and 16.) Don't take it personally.

 

Yes.  I had one easy kid and one hard kid.  I just assumed that the easy kid was the norm.

[HTRMom]

First, thanks for all the helpful advice and sympathy. My laptop isn't working but I'll try to address everything.

 

He absolutely gets cause and effect!!! "If you do that, I'll take the toy away" is fairly effective. I could give 100 examples but suffice it to say, his comprehension and problem solving skills are truly remarkable. We are continually shocked by what he can do and understand. I was tested for IQ at age 6 and was found over 99%. DH is a physicist PhD. This kid is really freaking smart, and he uses that in many situations. So at 9 months he had the comprehension of a 3yo in certain areas.

 

He talked late, like many gifted kids just waited for complete sentences so we tried EI. They suck in this area. At 3 it moves to the school system and that's a bad environment where he will not thrive.

 

I'm sorry many of you are offended by my descriptions. I've learned that I have to lay it out there as I'm secretly thinking to be challenged and corrected. If I didn't think I were part of the problem, I wouldn't be asking for advice.

 

Maybe malice is the wrong word because it's so charged. I'm trained in philosophy and take to mean "intent to cause harm." He will say, "I want to hurt you!" I get the difference between something being intentionally and unintentionally annoying. Signs of intentional misbehavior: He stares me in the eye, curls his lip in angry face and hurls my phone to the floor. He gets into the forbidden cabinet (locks are a joke) and makes a noise to make sure I'm watching. Etc. He's trying to get negative attention. He thinks it's funny when I lose it after the fiftieth offense of the afternoon. I only have so much patience.

 

He does go to preschool and is better those days. He needs a lot of stimulation.

 

I'd like to get a second opinion but I'm in a rural area and it will require travel, with 3 under 4.

My mom is here for the week while DH is gone, btw. :)

 

He hates cuddling. It makes him panic. He likes me to be across from him playing.

 

Any situation where he's asked to do anything that challenges him makes him anxious and he shuts down. Seriously, at 12 months we saw him practice motor skills in his room alone and he wouldn't do it for us until it was perfect. 12 months! He loves a challenge but only on his own terms. I wish we had a true Montessori preschool around.

 

My family has a ton of mental disorders including some known to be hereditary, so I'm expecting a difficult road with him. I very sincerely want to help him.

 

As far as spanking, if I say "I'll spank you if you do that," it's effective short-term. But yeah, thinking about it it may be cruel because of his touch anxiety.

[Liz CA]

I'm thinking about all the things that *should* have been going on in that scenario and weren't. I'm thinking the book Relationship Development Intervention with Young Children: Social and Emotional Development Activities for Asperger Syndrome, Autism, PDD and NLD would help you. It's going to be play-based and help you connect with him and really know, through a list of steps, what type of connection you're looking for and whether you're getting it. He needs more connection so he's noticing how you're feeling, how others are feeling about his behaviors.

 

A lot of the good therapies are going to be play-based. There's an org Play Project you can look up. If you found someone in that who does ODD, could be STELLAR.

 

Yes, I was wondering if the psychologist has done play therapy?

He may need a panel of testing so you can rule things out and realize what exactly you are dealing with.

 

[HTRMom]

I think he has many ASD symptoms and DH does too, but the psych immediately ruled that out because he has nice social interaction, back and forth conversation with eye contact. Is poor social skills always required for autism?

[HTRMom]

Double post

Edited June 9, 2017 by HTRMom

[Tanaqui]

It doesn't matter how smart your son is, or how good his comprehension - infants cannot manipulate people, nor can they "deliberately break rules just because they're forbidden", no more than cats or dogs can. They just aren't in that stage of development. If your psychologist has not explicitly explained this to you, after you stated your belief that this is how your son was acting, then they are a quack. Go to somebody else.

[gardenmom5]

have you ever looked at his diet?  some kids DO react negatively - and aggressively - to foods.   ds would get very aggressive when he ate nitrates.

 

start doing a food diary for him.  make note of dyes, artificial sweeteners, gluten, casien (protein in milk - but added to other foods), yeast, soy, preservatives.

I knew one kid who reacted horribly to sharp cheddar - but was ok with mild cheddar.

 

even what laundry detergent you use or soap on his skin.

[heartlikealion]

:grouphug:

 

I have not been around enough 2-3 yr olds to determine what is normal or not, but I will tell you that when I go out in public I feel like my toddler is exceptionally difficult. I gave up at the library program this week. We spent at least a third of it in the car with ds inside the building because she was disrupting the whole program. Yesterday we took her to the ophthalmologist and she was so upset in the dilation room. A woman sitting by us had to move because it was making her infant want to cry. That sounds normal but all this to say I feel like I can't go anywhere sometimes. Dh was with me and she wasn't listening to either of us. The other day my sister was texting me so I was trying to text her back and dd got impatient and slung the roku remote at my forehead. It hurts. I'm surprised I don't have a huge bruise across my face. I was like a foot from her when she did it. I try to make a conscious effort to not use a physical reaction (spank or swat on hand) but it's hard and I am ashamed. I took her to Early Intervention. The process is slow because the first week was just an intake and the evaluation team won't see her til later this month. I told them I am concerned she has a speech delay and thus acts out so much, screams, growls. She's having trouble communicating so she gets aggressive. I don't know if any of this applies to your dc. I know she also acts out when she wants attention from me and I'm not giving it to her. Sometimes I expect her to be way too patient for her age.

 

My only suggestion (for both of us because I need to follow my own advice) have more positive interactions. More one-on-one time. It rained the last couple of days so we haven't gone outside on our usual walk. Getting outside might be good. I have trouble with mine even outdoors. I take her to a football field and she literally runs to the track off the field from me sometimes. It's so exhausting and frustrating. I assume both my children are "spirited" aka strong willed and it will be a blessing later. Just not great now LOL

 

I have to catch her/stop her from doing things lately like turning on the bath faucets, opening the fridge, dumping the cat food in the cat's water dish, opening, opening all the band-aids and sticking them on things... ugh.

[Laura Corin]

He hates cuddling. It makes him panic. He likes me to be across from him playing.

 

 

So when he starts to do things that you don't like, would it work  to suggest that he sit with you to play?  Would being with you calm him, then you could talk through behavioural expectations and do over the things that went wrong? 

 

I just found that punishment pushed Hobbes away from me when what he needed was to be brought to the heart of the family.  He needed to want what the rest of the family wanted, and that only happened when he felt central.

[HTRMom]

At 10 months, if I said "don't touch that," he would laugh and do just that, over and over and over until we forcefully removed him. He would lock in and be incapable of doing anything else. What is that if not disobeying for its own sake? It was fun at first but then he was crying and it was a battle of wills that he couldn't stop. And if we come back into the room 30 minutes or 3 weeks later, he remembers and beelines to the forbidden thing. Even if it's something obviously not particularly appealing in itself. The forbidden fruit has clearly always motivated him.

[gardenmom5]

I think he has many ASD symptoms and DH does too, but the psych immediately ruled that out because he has nice social interaction, back and forth conversation with eye contact. Is poor social skills always required for autism?

 

find a new provider.  find one who specializes in CHILDREN with asd.  not just a random one - not even one who does 'just kids'.

I took him to the local major teaching hospital child dev center.  (another option is child dev center's associated with a children's hospital)

 

dudeling varies in his eye contact. (lack of eye contact disappeared after we did 12 weeks glutathione injections.)   he was a late talker - but not really out of range.  he does refuse to answer, and at times comes across as though he doesn't 'hear'.

 

even when he was diagnosed - he could have back and forth conversations *if he wanted to*.  but at home - he was surrounded by late teens/adults and got held a lot.  though if he was awake - he didn't like to be held, so never snuggled unless he was really upset.  so, we held him when he was asleep.

 

eta: especially if you think he may be asd - look at his diet.  many asd kids can be helped by with diet along with other things.

eta: - when he was diagnosed through the child dev center - it included dev peds, pscyh, slp, ot, +

Edited June 9, 2017 by gardenmom5

[HTRMom]

So when he starts to do things that you don't like, would it work to suggest that he sit with you to play? Would being with you calm him, then you could talk through behavioural expectations and do over the things that went wrong?

 

I just found that punishment pushed Hobbes away from me when what he needed was to be brought to the heart of the family. He needed to want what the rest of the family wanted, and that only happened when he felt central.

If I can do it early on, yes. If he's worked himselfup into a mood, he's not capable of doing anything but making weird noises and causing disruption. I haven't figured out how to break out of that.

[Laura Corin]

If I can do it early on, yes. If he's worked himselfup into a mood, he's not capable of doing anything but making weird noises and causing disruption. I haven't figured out how to break out of that.

 

When I decided to start really working on Hobbes' behaviour, I made him my focus and neglected my other child for a bit.  Catching that early moment before things escalate was the key.  Good luck.

[HTRMom]

find a new provider. find one who specializes in CHILDREN with asd. not just a random one - not even one who does 'just kids'.

I took him to the local major teaching hospital child dev center. (another option is child dev center's associated with a children's hospital)

 

dudeling varies in his eye contact. (lack of eye contact disappeared after we did 12 weeks glutathione injections.) he was a late talker - but not really out of range. he does refuse to answer, and at times comes across as though he doesn't 'hear'.

 

even when he was diagnosed - he could have back and forth conversations *if he wanted to*. but at home - he was surrounded by late teens/adults and got held a lot. though if he was awake - he didn't like to be held, so never snuggled unless he was really upset. so, we held him when he was asleep.

His preschool teacher mentioned that he withholds eye contact when he's angry or anxious or overwhelmed. He's very good at ignoring me and blocking me out. But he makes greAt eye contact and is a pleasure in a good mood.

[MedicMom]

I think he has many ASD symptoms and DH does too, but the psych immediately ruled that out because he has nice social interaction, back and forth conversation with eye contact. Is poor social skills always required for autism?

My ASD son carries on back and forth conversation and has great eye contact. I sometimes question his diagnosis, but he has so many rigid behaviors and other signs that tipped him over the line into an ASD diagnosis.

[kitten18]

At 10 months, if I said "don't touch that," he would laugh and do just that, over and over and over until we forcefully removed him. He would lock in and be incapable of doing anything else. What is that if not disobeying for its own sake? It was fun at first but then he was crying and it was a battle of wills that he couldn't stop. And if we come back into the room 30 minutes or 3 weeks later, he remembers and beelines to the forbidden thing. Even if it's something obviously not particularly appealing in itself. The forbidden fruit has clearly always motivated him.

I've never been around a baby/toddler that didn't do that.

 

I'm not saying that there isn't more going on, just that that behavior is typical for the age and developmentally appropriate.

Edited June 9, 2017 by kitten18

[MercyA]

Is poor social skills always required for autism?

 

No. It truly is a spectrum. I am not an expert, but it really does sound like your son is not neurotypical. That doesn't have to hold him back in life, though! I think you're asking a lot of good questions and noticing the right things. I hope you'll be able to get some answers and find some tools to help him.

 

I have to say, you've been very gracious considering some of the responses here. It's nice to have you on the forum! 

Edited June 9, 2017 by MercyA

[gardenmom5]

If I can do it early on, yes. If he's worked himselfup into a mood, he's not capable of doing anything but making weird noises and causing disruption. I haven't figured out how to break out of that.

 

I learned to *really really* watch the signs he was going over the edge.  there was a very small window when he had enough stimulation to be happy - but not too much to meltdown if removed.  I had to get him during that window.  it did mean he was getting an inordinate amount of my attention - but since my other kids were all much older, I was able to do that.  I could never allow him to play unsupervised with kids his age- let alone younger.  he wasn't 'safe'.  now he's fine.

 

what it sounds like is he's over stimulated and he doesn't know how to calm down.   jumping on a trampoline (we have a rebounder), epsom salt bath (water is very calming, as is the magnesium in the epsom salts - well absorbed through the skin.  add baking soda to save the skin from drying out).  a sensory table - a big container of beans/rice/etc with measuring cups and funnels etc.  you can have a lid on it when not in use.  it can actually be calming.   those are just some ideas that can help a child who is out of control.

 

His preschool teacher mentioned that he withholds eye contact when he's angry or anxious or overwhelmed. He's very good at ignoring me and blocking me out. But he makes greAt eye contact and is a pleasure in a good mood.

 

asd kids are often anxious/have anxiety - as a comorbid condition.  the witholding eye contact could well be he's feeling over stressed and trying to protect himself.  does he have a place he can go for 'quiet time" when he's feeling stressed?   can you set something up?  with a beanbag chair, cushions, quiet isolated corner somewhere?  one of those indoor kid tents?  a ball pit?  you can buy the balls if you have an area you can put them in.  it can calm the senses.

Edited June 9, 2017 by gardenmom5

[Tanaqui]

At 10 months, if I said "don't touch that," he would laugh and do just that, over and over and over until we forcefully removed him. He would lock in and be incapable of doing anything else. What is that if not disobeying for its own sake? It was fun at first but then he was crying and it was a battle of wills that he couldn't stop. And if we come back into the room 30 minutes or 3 weeks later, he remembers and beelines to the forbidden thing. Even if it's something obviously not particularly appealing in itself. The forbidden fruit has clearly always motivated him.

 

That's a child who gets fixated on something, and parents who do not see what is so appealing about an activity that he enjoys. Just because you think it's "obviously not particularly appealing in itself", that does not mean that you are correct. You're looking through your lens - not your child's.

 

When I was a child, my mother did not see what was so "obviously appealing" about my spinning mardi gras beads around and around, but I assure you, I didn't keep doing it just to annoy her. I did it because it was enjoyable in and of itself, even if she didn't understand.  (I wasn't ten months old at the time, of course. I can't remember being ten months old. I can remember the girls being ten months old. They always had to be redirected too. I didn't see what was so appealing about the wall socket, or about banging items on the table, but clearly they had a different perspective from me.)

 

His preschool teacher mentioned that he withholds eye contact when he's angry or anxious or overwhelmed. He's very good at ignoring me and blocking me out. But he makes great eye contact and is a pleasure in a good mood.

 

You mean he avoids it. When you say he withholds it, you're already framing this as a negative, something he does to annoy, upset, or antagonize others. It's better, I think, to use a neutral term. In this way, you avoid assigning motives that may be incorrect.

 

I think he has many ASD symptoms and DH does too, but the psych immediately ruled that out because he has nice social interaction, back and forth conversation with eye contact. Is poor social skills always required for autism?

 

Autism is complicated, but no, being able to have back and forth conversation with eye contact does not rule that out.

 

I think we've already established that your psych got their degree from a crackerjack box. Anybody who isn't going to immediately shut down the "manipulative baby" hypothesis is clearly not qualified. I wouldn't trust their opinion on autism either. If you think autism is a possibility, find a specialist who focuses on autism.

Edited June 9, 2017 by Tanaqui

[Tanaqui]

Also: Yes, please seriously look at diet. Even if your kid is NT, a food intolerance can cause all sorts of unpleasant behavior. What are the major culprits here? Food coloring springs to mind, but there's other common ones.

[Arcadia]

He hates cuddling. It makes him panic. He likes me to be across from him playing.

 

Any situation where he's asked to do anything that challenges him makes him anxious and he shuts down.

My sensory avoiding older boy takes touch on his terms. He likes to be surrounded by people but does not want uninvited playmates. Sometimes he wants to play alone, sometimes he want to analyze how people play. He plays well in a group when he wants to participate. He was sensitive to red dye and still has a hard time falling asleep.

 

How perfectionist is your son? Have you taken a look at overexcitabilities? http://www.gifteddevelopment.com/blogs/bobbie-and-lindas-blog/truth-about-overexcitabilities

 

My younger boy needed more attention when he was younger and my older boy would be very annoyed and asking when is his turn for mommy time. My mom came over to help and my younger was a good napper so that helped as my older doesn't need me all day but he wants his share of attention.

Edited June 9, 2017 by Arcadia

[gardenmom5]

I also have a kid who winds herself up and can't talk herself down.  At 2-3yo it would present as a half-hour screaming fit (thankfully not very often, and thankfully not violent).  Now at 10yo it manifests as very age-inappropriate backtalk.  In her case I strongly believe it has to do with blood sugar, as it happens when she's hungry, but it can also happen when she's simply stressed out.  It's not pretty, but so far we haven't figured out quite how to help her.  (Not for lack of trying.)

 

yes - absolutely low blood sugar! . . . . dudeling didn't recognize hunger - so if he didn't *really* like something - he wouldn't eat.  it wasn't pretty.   and this could go on for days.  now he's a tween - he recognizes hunger (sometimes), but he's still a super picky eater, and eats less than most boys his age.

 

At 6 months old??? They don't have a sense of right and wrong at that age. 

 

Children who are acting badly feel badly. Please continue to get him help. Seek out a developmental pediatrician or a neuropsychologist. 

 

yes - dudeing was in the special care nursery after he was born.  the nurses were commenting how he wouldn't look at anyone.  he'd rather look at the wall. they found that odd.  one did comment that babies who did that were 'avoiding' and how they were dealing with stress.  what I found interesting was when the alarms went off for the baby next to him - if you were looking at him, he didn't even flinch.  there was NO outward sign he even noticed the loud blaring alarms.  however - his monitors went nuts (skyrocketing heartrate) and his own alarms would go off.

 

dudeling does have anxiety (seems to be getting worse combined with tween hormones.) - and at school he'll pull his sweatshirt over his head and just shut down if he's stressed.

[ktgrok]

At 10 months, if I said "don't touch that," he would laugh and do just that, over and over and over until we forcefully removed him. He would lock in and be incapable of doing anything else. What is that if not disobeying for its own sake? It was fun at first but then he was crying and it was a battle of wills that he couldn't stop. And if we come back into the room 30 minutes or 3 weeks later, he remembers and beelines to the forbidden thing. Even if it's something obviously not particularly appealing in itself. The forbidden fruit has clearly always motivated him.

Um...I thought ALL babies did that??

 

They don't always get or understand or even hear "don't"...they just hear "..blah blah blah...touch that!" and so they do. 

 

serously. That's like every baby I've ever met. If your other kids didn't do that, they were the unusual ones. 

[HTRMom]

He does have a lot of quiet places available and he usually comes home from school and spends an hour in the sandbox or playing legos in his room. But if I suggest it, he's never going to do it!

 

I already know that he can't tolerate dairy or fructose. We do well with dairy but I could do better with fructose. But I've done strict elimination diets of most things with no obvious improvement. I don't think he eats food coloring very often.

 

I've never heard of overexcitability before. I'd guess he has intellectual excitability, possible sensual or emotional too.

 

I get that all kids tests boundaries, but this is just beyond the normal amount and intensity. He's unusually focused for his age. He has a very long attention span and can shut out everything around him when he's engaged with something, good or bad, in a different way from typical young children. He's very persistent. These are good qualities in a way, but tough to manage when he's fixated on a bad thing.

 

As far as not intrinsically interesting, if I told him not to touch one spot on the wall, he would do nothing else. I get that certain things are irresistible to him, but this isn't like that.

 

I'll do some poking around and see if there's an ASD specialist anywhere in the state. My ped has no idea.

 

 

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[Corraleno]

At 10 months, if I said "don't touch that," he would laugh and do just that, over and over and over until we forcefully removed him. He would lock in and be incapable of doing anything else. What is that if not disobeying for its own sake? It was fun at first but then he was crying and it was a battle of wills that he couldn't stop. And if we come back into the room 30 minutes or 3 weeks later, he remembers and beelines to the forbidden thing. Even if it's something obviously not particularly appealing in itself. The forbidden fruit has clearly always motivated him.

 

Imagine giving a baby or toddler a Rube Goldberg machine with a big red button on the front. He knows that every time he pushes it, something will happen. Sometimes it might be a loud noise (yelling) or a pop on the butt, but the important thing is that there is always a reaction and he caused it to happen. In a world where a 10 month old has very little control over anything, that big red button is one of very few things he can actually control.  When you point to something and tell him "don't touch that," you are putting a big red button on it. He doesn't think "I hate mommy and I enjoy making her unhappy, so I'm going to touch that thing just to make her suffer!" He thinks "This is a fun game — I can touch the thing and get attention!" 

 

Add anxiety and sensory issues into the mix, and kids will often try to exert control over what may appear to be trivial things in order to compensate for how out of control they feel. Have you ever felt extremely anxious about something that was totally out of your control? Now imagine feeling like that nearly all the time, for no apparent reason. Expecting a toddler to exert self-control and manage those feelings — in a way that few adults could do without professional help — is not reasonable. 

 

Yelling and spanking may also be rewarding him by causing a release of adrenaline that makes him feel calmer and more focused and less out of control, in which case you are basically training him to use your anger as a means of self-medicating. And unfortunately for him, there's no way to control the "dose" so sometimes he will hit the sweet spot, and sometimes he will not get enough (therefore keep pushing) and sometimes he will get too much and end up more out of control and unable to manage emotions that are now magnified x1000 instead of being diminished.

 

You used the phrase "battle of wills." Getting into a power struggle with kids like this is totally counter-productive; you may win some battles but you will lose the war, and you will destroy your relationship in the process. There is no win-lose outcome in this situation: it's either win-win or lose-lose, and in order for it to be win-win you need to both be on the same team. You need to be thinking in terms of "how can I help him manage his feelings and find constructive ways to get what he needs" not "how can I make him obey me." And if your psychologist really did say that a 10 month old infant was capable of conscious manipulation and disobedience-for-the-sake-of-disobedience then you need to find a different provider, because that one is a dangerous quack.

 

Signed,

Mom of The Toddler from Hell, who is now an awesome and amazing teen

 

 

[HTRMom]

What is the difference between "push the big button" and "obey to disobey?" Obviously the baby wasn't trying to make me suffer, he was trying to disobey. I just consider "pushing the button for a reaction" disobedience for its own sake and don't see a difference. I don't think me 3yo is trying to make me suffer, he's trying to make me mad and doesn't really understand that I have feelings at all. Either his empathy is very low or he does a good job pretending that it is.

 

 

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[ktgrok]

 

You used the phrase "battle of wills." Getting into a power struggle with kids like this is totally counter-productive; you may win some battles but you will lose the war, and you will destroy your relationship in the process. There is no win-lose outcome in this situation: it's either win-win or lose-lose, and in order for it to be win-win you need to both be on the same team.

 

 

This

[heartlikealion]

He does have a lot of quiet places available and he usually comes home from school and spends an hour in the sandbox or playing legos in his room. But if I suggest it, he's never going to do it!

 

I already know that he can't tolerate dairy or fructose. We do well with dairy but I could do better with fructose. But I've done strict elimination diets of most things with no obvious improvement. I don't think he eats food coloring very often.

 

I've never heard of overexcitability before. I'd guess he has intellectual excitability, possible sensual or emotional too.

 

I get that all kids tests boundaries, but this is just beyond the normal amount and intensity. He's unusually focused for his age. He has a very long attention span and can shut out everything around him when he's engaged with something, good or bad, in a different way from typical young children. He's very persistent. These are good qualities in a way, but tough to manage when he's fixated on a bad thing.

 

As far as not intrinsically interesting, if I told him not to touch one spot on the wall, he would do nothing else. I get that certain things are irresistible to him, but this isn't like that.

 

I'll do some poking around and see if there's an ASD specialist anywhere in the state. My ped has no idea.

 

 

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I haven't done elimination with my kids, but I did it for myself when I was breastfeeding. Did you allow at least a few weeks to get the body clear of the things you were eliminating?

 

As far as food dyes, they might be in things you don't suspect or didn't give any thought about. I've seen them in misc. products (food and non food) when I was reading the ingredients. I think like in my shampoo.

[Χά�ων]

What is the difference between "push the big button" and "obey to disobey?" Obviously the baby wasn't trying to make me suffer, he was trying to disobey. I just consider "pushing the button for a reaction" disobedience for its own sake and don't see a difference. I don't think me 3yo is trying to make me suffer, he's trying to make me mad and doesn't really understand that I have feelings at all. Either his empathy is very low or he does a good job pretending that it is.

 

 

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The difference is how you approach it and how you view child development.

[Arcadia]

He does have a lot of quiet places available and he usually comes home from school and spends an hour in the sandbox or playing legos in his room. But if I suggest it, he's never going to do it!

 

I get that all kids tests boundaries, but this is just beyond the normal amount and intensity. He's unusually focused for his age. He has a very long attention span and can shut out everything around him when he's engaged with something, good or bad, in a different way from typical young children. He's very persistent. These are good qualities in a way, but tough to manage when he's fixated on a bad thing.

 

As far as not intrinsically interesting, if I told him not to touch one spot on the wall, he would do nothing else. I get that certain things are irresistible to him, but this isn't like that.

He seems to be seeking control which isn't unusual. My older kid at that age wanted a very structured timetable even though he doesn't follow that schedule to the minute. Structure was his security blanket.

Also rules whether it is school rules or house rules. My kid likes explicit rules and he doesn't want parents or teachers to bend the rules for no obvious reasons. So if we say no TV time or junk food right now, he wants us to stand our ground and not be swayed. If my younger was puking and I let him watch TV, my older gets it and is obviously not interested in being puking sick to get TV time.

 

So weird as it may sound, your son may be testing you. Boundaries pushing aren't unusual. Also read up on asychronous gifted kids. The mismatch between intellect and maturity is quite a combination of entertaining and infuriating and exhausting. My extended family had a village (of relatives) raising all of us intense kids. Luckily my parents were able to come over to stay and helped when my kids were under 5. By the time my oldest was 4, we managed to figure out most of the meltdown triggers. http://www.hoagiesgifted.org/asynchronous.htm

 

I would be looking at 2E specialist if possible rather than just ASD specialist.

[zoobie]

What is the difference between "push the big button" and "obey to disobey?" Obviously the baby wasn't trying to make me suffer, he was trying to disobey. I just consider "pushing the button for a reaction" disobedience for its own sake and don't see a difference. I don't think me 3yo is trying to make me suffer, he's trying to make me mad and doesn't really understand that I have feelings at all. Either his empathy is very low or he does a good job pretending that it is.

 

 

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A 10 month old does not have the developmental capacity to obey or disobey. And a 3 year old cannot control anyone else's emotions. You're shifting the blame for your lack of control over your own feelings onto a child. If you as an adult don't have that kind of control, how on earth would a 3 year old? Much less a 10 month old.

[Lady Florida.]

It is not normal behavior. I know other kids. I've talked to lots of moms. I am actually working with a child psychologist. She says that he's exceptionally difficult and on a road to developing a defiance disorder. It's not a phase, he has been this way since he learned to crawl, literally. Spanking is somewhat effective. Obviously I don't want to yell at him, I just get angry and lash out from time to time. I'm getting my own counseling about that too.

 

 

 

If it's a disorder then it needs to be diagnosed and treated. Spanking a child is never effective though it might appear so temporarily. Spanking a child who has a disorder (or even a suspected disorder) is more than ineffective. It's abusive.

[Corraleno]

What is the difference between "push the big button" and "obey to disobey?" Obviously the baby wasn't trying to make me suffer, he was trying to disobey. I just consider "pushing the button for a reaction" disobedience for its own sake and don't see a difference. I don't think me 3yo is trying to make me suffer, he's trying to make me mad and doesn't really understand that I have feelings at all. Either his empathy is very low or he does a good job pretending that it is.

 

The difference is intent. You are assuming that a baby/toddler who is doing something to get attention and and/or manage anxiety is doing it because he has no empathy, doesn't care about your feelings, and enjoys making you mad. That is not an accurate or helpful way to frame a 3 yr old's behavior — in fact it's downright dangerous. 

 

You are making this all about you — like the goal is to make him stop behaving in ways that make you feel angry and hurt. The real goal should be finding ways to make him feel happy and secure and helping him develop the skills he needs to manage his emotions.

 

If you need professional help to manage your emotions and your response to him, then you should pursue that as well.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

My son who is on the spectrum was precociously verbal and was great at eye contact; as others have said, "high functioning" can mean that you almost forget about it until the child's particular issues are triggered. Or when you realize you've done it again, thinking he's too gifted to not understand something that you'd never expect a NT child of the same age to understand.

 

One thing that has helped me over the years (my son is 20) is to counterintuitively treat him as if he's his real age, or three years YOUNGER, when his brain hits a brick wall. Doesn't matter whether the issue is relational, logical, developmental, we dial back expectations. We lower the bar until he can clear it, and then try to progress. This can feel counterintuitive because my son is a genius. Very high IQ. Awesome at problem solving. Has cracked a lot of codes about social behavior. So capable, so smart, but that magic mind can, and does, fool us sometimes, and we have to remember what it means to be on the spectrum.

 

I suspect you may have similar issues at work here. You know your son is crazy smart, so you aren't allowing for delays in social skills and understanding. After all, he acts like he understands! But as Coralleno said, his lab studies in adult reactions to his behaviors might not be the same as his truly understanding at your level.

Edited June 9, 2017 by Tibbie Dunbar

[Lang Syne Boardie]

YES. Agreeing with Arcadia that 2E, "twice exceptional," is another search term for you. Come to the accelerated and learning challenges board to talk with others who know about ASD, 2E, and ODD.

[gardenmom5]

Um...I thought ALL babies did that??

 

They don't always get or understand or even hear "don't"...they just hear "..blah blah blah...touch that!" and so they do. 

 

serously. That's like every baby I've ever met. If your other kids didn't do that, they were the unusual ones. 

 

1dd - my *easiest* baby.  I could take her anywhere . . . . (she made up for it.)

anyway - we had a fire for supplemental heating the winter she turned one.  she was fascinated by that fire - and kept trying to reach it.  nothing we did would make her stop.  so - I'd pull her to the other side of the room (30 ft away) and let her crawl back.  at least she was getting crawling practice.

 

the challenge is finding something that is intellectually interesting to them.  sometimes it's NOT "age appropriate".  2dd . . . . had exceptional  motor skills at a young age.  I ended up giving her a peg board with pegs to insert.  she'd do that over and over and over . . . .   she was 15 months - something she wasn't even supposed to have access to until she was three.

 

I remember being fascinated by the spring door stop. . . . thwing it back and forth and watch it go .  . . . over and over.

 

OP if he's now old enough to talk - have you ever asked him about what he finds so interesting about some of the things he does?  a real description might be beyond his vocabulary - but you might also get some insight into what he would like for his intellectual stimulation.

 

 

 

He does have a lot of quiet places available and he usually comes home from school and spends an hour in the sandbox or playing legos in his room. But if I suggest it, he's never going to do it!

 

I already know that he can't tolerate dairy or fructose. We do well with dairy but I could do better with fructose. But I've done strict elimination diets of most things with no obvious improvement. I don't think he eats food coloring very often.

 

I've never heard of overexcitability before. I'd guess he has intellectual excitability, possible sensual or emotional too.

 

I get that all kids tests boundaries, but this is just beyond the normal amount and intensity. He's unusually focused for his age. He has a very long attention span and can shut out everything around him when he's engaged with something, good or bad, in a different way from typical young children. He's very persistent. These are good qualities in a way, but tough to manage when he's fixated on a bad thing.

 

As far as not intrinsically interesting, if I told him not to touch one spot on the wall, he would do nothing else. I get that certain things are irresistible to him, but this isn't like that.

 

I'll do some poking around and see if there's an ASD specialist anywhere in the state. My ped has no idea.

 

 

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do you ever say - Ok, let's all go outside and play in the sandbox or ___ (and take all the kids with you) - so he's not being forced to go by himself?  kids don't like to go off by themselves - they are much more responsive when they are led by mom going with them. 

 

HFCS has mercury in it.  (yeah . . . caustic soda is used to extract the sugar from the corn - caustic soda contains mercury.  the dr doing dudeling's blood draw mentioned it because he was drinking soda - I wouldn't have believed it.  but his mercury level was = swallowing the mercury from an old thermometer.)  it is something in small amounts our bodies are capable of excreting - but some kids can't.  (and tuna has mercury - but most people are aware of that.)   that's why we did 12 weeks of glutathione injections (naturally occurring heavy-duty anitoxidant)  after a month - I had people coming up to me and asking what was different because clearing the mercury from his system was making such a big difference in his behavior.   when his numbers were rerun - his hg level was zero.

 

read lables - the number of things that contain hfcs is aggravating.

 

 

eta: another thing I did was take him to a really good chiro.  I only knew whatever was going on was neurological.   I'd previously had a chiro who loathed and despised forceps (he made his wife's ob do a c-section before he'd let him use forceps) because of what they can do to a baby's neck.  . . . well, dudeling was forceps - four cervical vertebra were misaligned.  there was improvement afterwards. it was just one small part of the puzzle that is dudeling.

Edited June 9, 2017 by gardenmom5

[Lady Florida.]

My son (almost 20) has moderate ADHD and was diagnosed at age 5. It was obvious before his dx that many of his behaviors weren't just normal for his age. It can drive you crazy even when you know it's the disorder causing the behavior - I get that. 

 

If your son has ADHD (which he might be too young to dx) he can tell you what he isn't supposed to do. After he does it he can tell you he knows it was wrong, why it was wrong, and that he shouldn't have done it. What he can't do is stop himself from doing it in the moment. The brain chemicals that make most NT people stop and think, "Wait, this isn't such a good idea" are lacking in people with ADHD. It's not that they don't know right from wrong or choose wrong for the he## of it. They live with hindsight. As hard as it is on parents or caregivers, it's even harder on the child with the disorder. They beat themselves up over it. Having others literally or figuratively beat them for it only makes things worse. Better to help them deal with their issue than to punish them for it.

 

And I agree 100% with others - find a different psychologist. This one sounds like a quack.

Edited June 9, 2017 by Lady Florida.

[Tanaqui]

What is the difference between "push the big button" and "obey to disobey?" Obviously the baby wasn't trying to make me suffer, he was trying to disobey. I just consider "pushing the button for a reaction" disobedience for its own sake and don't see a difference. I don't think me 3yo is trying to make me suffer, he's trying to make me mad and doesn't really understand that I have feelings at all. Either his empathy is very low or he does a good job pretending that it is.

 

The difference is your understanding of child development. He wasn't trying to disobey, because, at ten months, he wasn't old enough to understand the concept of obedience. It's like a two year old taking candy from the store - it's not stealing, because at two, they just don't have the knowledge and cognitive ability to understand.

 

I don't think me 3yo is trying to make me suffer, he's trying to make me mad and doesn't really understand that I have feelings at all.

 

The first part of this sentence directly contradicts the second - unless you think your three year old doesn't understand that anger is a feeling.

 

Three year olds can be extremely frustrating. That's normal development for three year olds. (Yours might still not be typical, but the fact that he drives you up the wall IS.) You need to control your own emotions, and your own reactions to those emotions. You're the grown-up. He's the child. Getting mad at a three year old for being annoying - you may as well get mad at a cat for killing mice. And this goes doubly or even triply if he isn't NT.

[HTRMom]

I don't think it's all about me. (But let's me real, it's partly about me and the brother he terrorizes.) I know that he is doing someone in order to get an angry reaction out of me or his teacher or dad. Would it be better for him if I never got angry? Yes. Is he deliberately trying to make me angry? Yes. He has no sense that I have internal feelings. He's not really trying to hurt me, although it feels that way, because it's never occurred to him that he could. He just wants to see me get mad. I don't know why, exactly. I know some of that is age-appropriate, experimenting. But the intensity with which he does it is not normal.

 

I already said that I'm getting therapy for anger management. I never seemed to have a problem until I had this kid. Kids sure bring out the best and the worst in us!

 

I'd be shocked if there were a 2E specialist in the state of NM. Specialists of every kind are lacking. If there were someone, she would have a 1-year wait list.

 

Doesn't ADHD involve having more physical energy than other kids? DS has the same amount or a bit less physical energy as other kids his age.

 

 

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[HTRMom]

The difference is your understanding of child development. He wasn't trying to disobey, because, at ten months, he wasn't old enough to understand the concept of obedience. It's like a two year old taking candy from the store - it's not stealing, because at two, they just don't have the knowledge and cognitive ability to understand.

 

 

The first part of this sentence directly contradicts the second - unless you think your three year old doesn't understand that anger is a feeling.

 

Three year olds can be extremely frustrating. That's normal development for three year olds. (Yours might still not be typical, but the fact that he drives you up the wall IS.) You need to control your own emotions, and your own reactions to those emotions. You're the grown-up. He's the child. Getting mad at a three year old for being annoying - you may as well get mad at a cat for killing mice. And this goes doubly or even triply if he isn't NT.

He likes to see how I act when I'm mad. Maybe it makes him feel powerful? Maybe he's trying to find where I will set a limit? Maybe he feels insecure and needs to see that there are boundaries? I think maybe he just gets angry and lashes out, not knowing what else to do. He doesn't comprehend that I have an inner life like he does, or that being angry is unpleasant for me. He has no empathy. That's an observation, not a judgment. I don't know what the typical age range is for development of empathy.

[Tanaqui]

Doesn't ADHD involve having more physical energy than other kids? DS has the same amount or a bit less physical energy as other kids his age.

 

Not necessarily. (It also doesn't mean that your kid can never focus ever. Many kids with ADHD have an ability to focus very well, even to their detriment, on things they're interested in.)

 

I know that he is doing someone in order to get an angry reaction out of me or his teacher or dad. Would it be better for him if I never got angry? Yes. Is he deliberately trying to make me angry? Yes.

 

Well, what exactly is he doing? And how do you know that this is his motive? Has he told you that this is what he is trying to do? "Yes, Mommy, I love to make you mad!"

 

So, I'm autistic. And in my experience, people love to try to pin motives on me that don't in any way match up with my actual emotions and thoughts. Judging from a quick perusal of advice columns, this happens to NTs as well  - one person thinks the other is deliberately snubbing them, but the other one turns out to just be introverted. That sort of thing.

 

I don't know your son's motives for his behavior. (Heck, I don't even specifically know what he's doing!) But what I do know is this. If you approach every interaction with your son with the belief that he's deliberately out to antagonize you, and that his motive is to harm others and make you mad just for the sake of harming others and making them mad, then that's what you're going to get. You're setting an expectation. And whatever expectation you set, that's what you're going to see. And whether it's really there or not to start, eventually, that's what you're going to get.

 

Very, very few children actually act like this, especially in toddlerhood.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

HTRMom, if you don't know about empathy in childhood, you do a google search with keywords like "child development empathy teach" and find links like parentingtheatriskchild.com and start learning!

 

We parents who have btdt have learned to keep asking questions. What does he lack, why might that be so, where can I get more info, what professional help do I need, what can we work on at home, etc. We become the primary expert in our child's life. You can do this, too.

[HTRMom]

If he stares at me, scowls, and dumps juice on the floor or throws something or bites me, what motive is there besides making me angry? It's just fun to scowl and bite and throw?

 

 

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[ktgrok]

If he stares at me, scowls, and dumps juice on the floor or throws something or bites me, what motive is there besides making me angry? It's just fun to scowl and bite and throw?

 

 

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Self defense.

 

Fight or Flight

[maize]

I don't know your son's motives for his behavior. (Heck, I don't even specifically know what he's doing!) But what I do know is this. If you approach every interaction with your son with the belief that he's deliberately out to antagonize you, and that his motive is to harm others and make you mad just for the sake of harming others and making them mad, then that's what you're going to get. You're setting an expectation. And whatever expectation you set, that's what you're going to see. And whether it's really there or not to start, eventually, that's what you're going to get.

 

Very, very few children actually act like this, especially in toddlerhood.

I agree with this.

 

Three year olds in general tend to simply act on what they are feeling. Adults may project intents onto their actions (he is trying to make me mad) that have no basis at all in what is going on internally in the child.

Edited June 9, 2017 by maize

[Lang Syne Boardie]

If he stares at me, scowls, and dumps juice on the floor or throws something or bites me, what motive is there besides making me angry? It's just fun to scowl and bite and throw?

 

 

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He may think you are angry at him, or that you don't like him.

[Tanaqui]

If he stares at me, scowls, and dumps juice on the floor or throws something or bites me, what motive is there besides making me angry? It's just fun to scowl and bite and throw?

Well, I don't know. What precipitated this behavior?

 

Maybe he's scowling at you because he's unhappy. Maybe he's dumping his juice on the floor because he doesn't like that juice, and since he's already unhappy (and maybe tired, hungry, or stressed) it's easier to dump it out in an angry way than to say "I don't like this".

 

As for throwing and biting, this is normal behavior in three year olds. It usually means they're angry, scared, or frustrated (especially if they're hungry or tired). It doesn't mean they're trying to make YOU angry.

 

(Actually, scowling and dumping food on the floor in a pique is also normal behavior in three year olds, isn't it? Is this really all that's going on?)

[Tanaqui]

I mean, you've said that you yell and hit when you get frustrated or angry. If he was posting this, would he say you yell and hit to make him mad? Perhaps he'll ask "What other motive is there? Is it just fun to yell and hit?"

 

You're an adult. If you don't have the self-control to keep from yelling and hitting when you're angry and frustrated and generally stressed, why do you imagine that your three year old must have some other motive for doing the same thing you do?

 

I don't think you're being fair.

Edited June 9, 2017 by Tanaqui

[zoobie]

If he stares at me, scowls, and dumps juice on the floor or throws something or bites me, what motive is there besides making me angry? It's just fun to scowl and bite and throw?

 

 

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Exploring his environment. Teething. Sensory issues. Feeling overwhelmed/frustrated/upset/mad and having no way to express it "appropriately." Three year olds are frustratingly simple. If he's smiling, he's happy. If he's scowling, he's not. The frustrating part is figuring out why. He's acting how he feels. He's not acting in a manipulative manner to get someone else to feel a certain way. Three year olds are still babies and still selfish creatures. It has NOTHING to do with you or trying to get a certain reaction from you. It's about him and what he's feeling.

 

If a neurotypical 10 year old bites you or dumps food on the floor, that's an entirely different scenario.

 

Would researching child development stages help? You are using terms like motive that really don't belong with three year olds. I often ask whyyyyy did you do XYZ, but that's **my** way of voicing frustration. I know my three year old really isn't planning things out three steps ahead. She dumped out her bowl of pretzels because she wanted the purple bowl, not the green one. Or because she wanted crackers and not pretzels. She's not trying to piss me off.