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AnnE-girl

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Actually, that recommendation came out from the CDC months sgo and caused quite a stir. Many claimed that it was an attack on women's freedoms to make that recommendation. Obviously I disagree with that.

 

Interesting.  

 

How can a recommendation be an attack on anyone's freedoms?  (I know this is straying from the OP.)   If there is good science behind it, people ought to know. But there is nothing to enforce a recommendation, so what does it have to do with anyone's freedom?  

 

Is this similar to complaints about recommendations to breastfeed, which apparently upset some women who, for various reasons, didn't (plan to) breastfeed?  

 

Just another thing I don't get. 

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I think it is the atmosphere in our country. People are so focused on their "rights" being attacked, that they can't tolerate a recommendation based on science. People interpret that as a judgement on them personally,

 

Someone above said that this have roots in our Puritan history and is a moral argument. No, it is a scientific one first and an anecdotal one second in my case. If I can save children from suffering like my girl has, I will keep speaking the truth. If I can prevent the very real secondary trauma from the rages, I will speak again and again. (Again, the symptoms go way beyond this for her and others. The learning disabilities are staggering and perplexing. An example : my daughter learned to multiply rather quickly, but still struggles with subtraction. She's 13. ) I can't list all the effects here, but you can find them with a little searching. 🙂

 

Mild or moderate drinking is not worth the potential heartbreak.

Edited by SpecialClassical
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Interesting.  

 

How can a recommendation be an attack on anyone's freedoms?  (I know this is straying from the OP.)   If there is good science behind it, people ought to know. But there is nothing to enforce a recommendation, so what does it have to do with anyone's freedom?  

 

Is this similar to complaints about recommendations to breastfeed, which apparently upset some women who, for various reasons, didn't (plan to) breastfeed?  

 

Just another thing I don't get. 

 

The idea that safety considerations about pregnancy, even at low or uncertain levels of risk, absolutely trump a woman's personal desires and right to make judgments about her own life. At its extreme, this becomes the idea that pregnancy trumps a woman's right to life, when their medical needs conflict. There have been recent cases of that actually happening in other countries - women dying because they were denied either therapeutic abortion or medical treatment, such as for cancer, that might harm the fetus - and there is a movement of people in the U.S. who want the same rules here. The idea that the potential to get pregnant overrides everything else that might be going on in your life is at the weak end of a big hairy spectrum of ideas about women as being first and foremost incubators the young rather than persons in our own right.

 

I guess it depends on how you feel about slippery slope logic. But I wouldn't assume there is nothing to enforce it. There have been many cases of women put in jail for drug use during pregnancy. Not that I think one should use drugs in pregnancy, but addiction is a disease and should be treated rather than punished. And where do you stop? If it's true that a woman can cause FAS by having a single glass of wine with dinner when it's too early to know she's pregnant (it's not but for the sake of argument), should women be barred from alcohol entirely? What about other risky activities? Certain forms of work? What are the consequences for our society of treating "potentially pregnant" as the fundamental lens we look at women through?

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Actually, that recommendation came out from the CDC months sgo and caused quite a stir. Many claimed that it was an attack on women's freedoms to make that recommendation. Obviously I disagree with that.

That's oversimplifying the controversy with the recommendation.

 

Also, there's a wide gulf of options between the OP's current potential state in pregnancy and FAS. That also includes taking what we know from science and what we don't know.

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Is this similar to complaints about recommendations to breastfeed, which apparently upset some women who, for various reasons, didn't (plan to) breastfeed?

 

Just another thing I don't get.

I've never known anyone to be upset by the recommendation (though I don't deny the possibility). What is upsetting is judgmental busybodies who want to force the recommendation on everyone. My best friend was advised by her doctor NOT to breastfeed for specific medical reasons. And when perfect strangers in public would see her baby with a bottle, they would tell her what a lazy, selfish, terrible mother she was for not breastfeeding. Just what every insecure new mom needs to hear, not to mention none of their d--n business anyway.

 

If a recommendation gets issued for all (hetero)sexually active women of childbearing age to abstain from alcohol, there will be plenty of people who will take it upon themselves to police the new "rule". I would imagine the objection is that women shouldn't have to explain to the waiter their sexual orientation, contraception choices, or fertility status in order to get that glass of wine. ;)

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The idea that safety considerations about pregnancy, even at low or uncertain levels of risk, absolutely trump a woman's personal desires and right to make judgments about her own life.

<snip>

 

 

I've never known anyone to be upset by the recommendation (though I don't deny the possibility).

<snip>

 

OK, that all makes sense.  I just wasn't thinking of it that way.  Which is funny, because I am usually a slippery slope kind of person about other things.    

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OK, that all makes sense. I just wasn't thinking of it that way. Which is funny, because I am usually a slippery slope kind of person about other things.

I never thought about it either until that happened to my friend, and I didn't think about the points winterbaby brought up, though they are very good ones.

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I guess it depends on how you feel about slippery slope logic. But I wouldn't assume there is nothing to enforce it. There have been many cases of women put in jail for drug use during pregnancy. Not that I think one should use drugs in pregnancy, but addiction is a disease and should be treated rather than punished. And where do you stop? If it's true that a woman can cause FAS by having a single glass of wine with dinner when it's too early to know she's pregnant (it's not but for the sake of argument), should women be barred from alcohol entirely? What about other risky activities? Certain forms of work? What are the consequences for our society of treating "potentially pregnant" as the fundamental lens we look at women through?[/quot

 

 

I agree with you that a drug addiction should be treated differently. Instead of putting the mother in jail, they should be sterilised. Especially if they have already had a child removed and continue to use drugs. The result on the children is lifelong and completely devastating. Come walk in my shoes for a few hours and see what it does tochildren. Screaming for hours and hours, inability to self regulate emotions, primitive brain response to any slightly stressful situations, global development delays in all areas, IQ of less than 70 ............ I am getting sidetracked

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I'd drink a glass of wine with no guilt whatsoever. Don't binge drink, and don't get tipsy, but one glass of wine isn't the cause of FAS, alcoholism is. If you're an alcoholic and cannot stop with just one, don't drink at all.

 

 

ETA:  well I wouldn't, because wine triggers headaches for me.  But if I had a cold I would down a hot toddy in early pregnancy with no question whatsoever.

Edited by Katy
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I guess it depends on how you feel about slippery slope logic. But I wouldn't assume there is nothing to enforce it. There have been many cases of women put in jail for drug use during pregnancy. Not that I think one should use drugs in pregnancy, but addiction is a disease and should be treated rather than punished. And where do you stop? If it's true that a woman can cause FAS by having a single glass of wine with dinner when it's too early to know she's pregnant (it's not but for the sake of argument), should women be barred from alcohol entirely? What about other risky activities? Certain forms of work? What are the consequences for our society of treating "potentially pregnant" as the fundamental lens we look at women through?[/quot

 

 

I agree with you that a drug addiction should be treated differently. Instead of putting the mother in jail, they should be sterilised. Especially if they have already had a child removed and continue to use drugs. The result on the children is lifelong and completely devastating. Come walk in my shoes for a few hours and see what it does tochildren. Screaming for hours and hours, inability to self regulate emotions, primitive brain response to any slightly stressful situations, global development delays in all areas, IQ of less than 70 ............ I am getting sidetracked

 

I have a special needs child so I would never minimize what you deal with. That is a terrible thing to do to a child, I just guess the question is, is it really right to treat every woman out there as presumptively the type of person who has to be stopped by others from doing that, and does it really make children any safer to pretend that a glass of wine with dinner is remotely the same thing.

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If you feel compelled to offer an excuse, try, "Sorry, wish I could, but I'm not supposed to drink while on this antibiotic for my ear infection. Enjoy a glass for me!" 

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I'm willing to bet money that you can comb the internet and every study and not find a single case where one glass of wine caused FAS.  Would there even BE any healthy children in France?

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I'm willing to bet money that you can comb the internet and every study and not find a single case where one glass of wine caused FAS. Would there even BE any healthy children in France?

For real.

 

The hysteria also coincidentally goes with morally questionable actions that women are traditionally policed for.

 

Drink half a glass of wine? Baaaaaad incubatress...

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I'm willing to bet money that you can comb the internet and every study and not find a single case where one glass of wine caused FAS.  Would there even BE any healthy children in France?

 

 

I have a French baby bible type book similar to the baby bible books you can find in the US and there is a cartoon image of a very pregnant woman holding a glass of champagne with the caption, "Only occasionally!" I bought this while pregnant with my first, 10 years ago, so relatively recent.  Cigarettes, on the other hand, got a big red X through them...  

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Women have to make their own choices about alcohol during pregnancy. There is no scientific evidence that light drinking presents a risk to a baby. But it is reasonable (perhaps advisable) to abstain based on clear evidence that heavy drinking can be dangerous for the unborn.

 

But this whole discussion started with a post expressing concern that a husband's coworkers might notice not drinking. Why does that even matter? Pregnant or not, why do we as women even factor in what others notice or think? One woman, seeing no evidence that a glass of wine presents a risk, still worries that people will judge her if she has that glass of wine. Another decides not to drink 'just in case' but worries that a spouse's coworker might draw a conclusion.

 

Is there any way women can just live their lives without this crushing sense of being under scrutiny? Is there any hope that women can just look at data, consider the weight of scientific evidence, and make a confident decision? Am I crazy to hope the world will ever trust women to do that?

 

Why on earth does a woman need an explanation for having or not having a glass of wine.? Do people really see us so much as 'walking wombs' that not having a drink is assumed to be about pregnancy and not about a stomach ulcer, trouble sleeping, a prescription drug that should not be taken with alcohol, reflux, driving safety, or one of dozens of others reasons not to drink?

Edited by Danestress
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<snip>

 

But this whole discussion started with a post expressing concern that a husband's coworkers might notice not drinking. Why does that even matter? Pregnant or not, why do we as women even factor in what others notice or think? One woman, seeing no evidence that a glass of wine presents a risk, still worries that people will judge her if she has that glass of wine. Another decides not to drink 'just in case' but worries that a spouse's coworker might draw a conclusion.

 

<snip>

 

I get you.  But, I think so many women do this to themselves by not being confident in their choices.  (I'm not talking specifically about the OP because I've no idea.)

 

This is like many things that people do that don't have universal approval:  homeschooling; not marrying, or marrying late in life; having lots of kids, or no kids at all; eating a certain diet; medicating, or not, for ADHD; breastfeeding in public, or not breastfeeding at all... the list goes on.  Yet, people confidently do those things regardless of peoples' opinions.  

 

I had to defend myself against a relative recently for giving my kid ADHD meds.  She felt she had some authority on the topic because she's an admin at a medical school.  I told her the kid is under the care of a medical professional with expertise in the area, and that she didn't know what she was talking about.  End of discussion.  Pretty sure she still thinks I'm a bad mom for it.  But I don't care. Why would I care?  Why do women allow themselves to be intimidated?

 

(I know it's complicated.)

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Pretty sure she still thinks I'm a bad mom for it. But I don't care. Why would I care? Why do women allow themselves to be intimidated?

 

(I know it's complicated.)

I wish I could honestly say I am free from caring. But even as I recognize that caring is a burden and hinders women from making good evidence based choices (or preference based choices, for that matter), truly losing my 'care what others think' tendency seems impossibly hard.

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I would guess it is perfectly safe to "sip a glass of wine through supper."  If that means what it sounds like it means.  I mean it's just fermented grape juice.  If it's really one glass, one time, and really sipped slowly with dinner.

 

I don't know the OP but I know some people who would say they are going to "sip a glass of wine" and end up drinking a lot more, a lot faster.  So personally, I would advise just skipping it.  It's not necessary and it can be too easy to drink more than intended.

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I would guess it is perfectly safe to "sip a glass of wine through supper." If that means what it sounds like it means. I mean it's just fermented grape juice. If it's really one glass, one time, and really sipped slowly with dinner.

 

I don't know the OP but I know some people who would say they are going to "sip a glass of wine" and end up drinking a lot more, a lot faster. So personally, I would advise just skipping it. It's not necessary and it can be too easy to drink more than intended.

So it is "perfectly safe" to drink one glass of wine, but you would advise against it because normal pregnant women can't reliably count to one?

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This was her doctors thing. The only time I had heard it before was a friend whose husband was a PhD in environmental science that I worked with at UT. He wouldn't let his wife touch a gas nozzle while pregnant either. I can't remember the term she used- it's been years ago. He had to him, sound logic on it as did other friends doctor. On a plus side they didn't have to worry about getting gas for nine months. Their husbands had to do it, so there was actually a benefit on that one. :)

 

ETA- I had to fill my own car up during every pregnancy. But I enjoyed turkey sandwiches and Pinot Grigio on occasion too, so I guess we can't have it all.

 

I remember hearing about avoiding pumping gas way back when (pre-2000.)  I didn't give it much thought, because no one pumps their own gas in New Jersey!

 

I guess I forgot all about that when I was pregnant in PA!

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The warnings/advice/etc. are based on the fact that no specific amount or timing of alcohol has been proven safe, not because any amount of alcohol is dangerous. And there never will be a proven amount, because we can't ASK pregnant women to drink specified amounts of alcohol in order to get sufficient, controlled data!

 

Across 7 pregnancies, 5 to term, I had exactly 1 sip of champagne (3rd trimester, at a wedding) and 1 beer (at almost 42 weeks and dying to get that thing out of me.)  Is anyone REALLY going to tell me I endangered 2 of my babies?  REALLY?!?!

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Lots of assumptions in the "logic" mentioned above that has not been researched yet and never will because of ethics:

 

1. A finite amount of alcohol causes harm. The fallacy here is that there are not even retrospective studies to determine exactly how much alcohol was consumed in pregnancies verse the risk to the fetus. One would have to track body size, liver metabolic rate, exactly how far along in the pregnancy, how fast each alcoholic drink was consumed, (100% alcohol milliliter per hour), other factors slowing this rate such as hydration level of the mother, etc. The list goes on and on. And I guarantee there will never be any randomized controlled trials because of ethical considerations.

 

2. If there are no studies proving harm, then it must be OK. Read number 1. above. There will never be any studies.

 

3. There is something called FAS which is bad. There is nothing less than that , and alcohol does not cause harm on a continuum. In other words, we are assuming that if a concrete diagnosis of FAS is not made, Little Sally's inability to get an "A" in algebra or her temper tantrums had nothing to do with my alcohol consumption during pregnancy or breastfeeding. The whole point behind the CDC and American Academy of Pediatrician's recommendations are because there is no way to tell. We are learning that acetaminophen, some antibiotics, plastics, other chemicals, etc. cause harm which we never knew before. Why on earth would anyone want to assume alcohol is an exception?

 

4. Recommendations eliminate rights. Yes, sometimes they do. It sucks and makes me mad. But, it is what it is. There are two lives in that body, both of which are only temporarily intertwined physically. Therefore, each human will find his rights hampered from time to time if not legally, then socially and religiously. So be it. Try to not let what aquaintenances and imaginary friends think trump one's common sense.

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There actually ARE studies tracking the alcohol intake of pregnant women in Europe. The babies had no adverse affects whatsoever. So yes, light drinking is basically proven safe, inasmuch as such a thing is provable.

(One example study http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1530-0277.1994.tb00089.x/full)

 

I've had two drinks in one day on four occasions and more than that never, so yes, I can be trusted not to start with one glass of wine and end up drinking the whole bottle.

 

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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I have not read all the responses.  Honestly its very difficult to read because I am the parent of two FASD children who will struggle their whole lives because of exposure to alcohol in utero.  It is not for the faint-hearted parenting an FASD child. . . my husband and I suffer from PTSD and serious health issues because of the stress and trauma we have experienced.   But that pales in comparison to what my boys will experience their whole lives.  

 

I love a glass of wine with my meal.  No way would I risk it in pregnancy.  It is not worth the risk.  

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If your period is not due until the weekend you would not be experiencing pregnancy symptoms yet.  You would only be implanting around now an most people would not even consider the likelyhood they ,may be pregnant at this point.  Chances are it is simply hormones and pms causing your "symptoms".  Have the glass of wine and relax.

As for the connection between drinking and adhd etc, I have 4 with adhd and never drank during pg, rarely drink at all (3 glasses of wine per year at most). As well, I do not believe for 1 second that a glass of wine with dinner is going to affect a blastocyst that may have implanted a couple days before the dinner party.  Give me a break.  We may as well put a ban on drinking for all sexual women of childbearing age, (looking back I see others have said this too). 

Enjoy the dinner party with your husband, pee on a stick on Sunday and then come back and tell us what it says. Or by one of those early first response tests and pee on it on Wednesday am and decide based on that if you want a drink with dinner.

Edited by swellmomma

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If your period is not due until the weekend you would not be experiencing pregnancy symptoms yet. You would only be implanting around now an most people would not even consider the likelyhood they ,may be pregnant at this point. Chances are it is simply hormones and pms causing your "symptoms". Have the glass of wine and relax.

 

As for the connection between drinking and adhd etc, I have 4 with adhd and never drank during pg, rarely drink at all (3 glasses of wine per year at most). As well, I do not believe for 1 second that a glass of wine with dinner is going to affect a blastocyst that may have implanted a couple days before the dinner party. Give me a break. We may as well put a ban on drinking for all sexual women of childbearing age, (looking back I see others have said this too).

 

Enjoy the dinner party with your husband, pee on a stick on Sunday and then come back and tell us what it says. Or by one of those early first response tests and pee on it on Wednesday am and decide based on that if you want a drink with dinner.

I tested this morning. It could not have been more clearly negative. I'd be really surprised if my period doesn't show up on time this weekend.

 

I had some symptoms before missing my period with my last one that made me think I needed medication for horrible pms if it ever happened again. When I found out I was pregnant, it made a lot more sense. I'll chalk it up to pms and lack of sleep this time.

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I'm not expecting my period until Friday or Saturday, but I've had a few odd things that could be really early pregnancy symptoms. Or just early, bad PMS. If I'm literally a week along, and not able to verify yet, it's still ok to have a glass of wine, right? It would be too early to really negatively affect a possible baby, right? We have a dinner for DH's work Wednesday night that will have wine at the table and his coworkers will definitely notice if I'm not partaking.

 

It's probably nothing. But I've been really cranky, bloated (but it's suddenly 90 degrees, which always makes me swell up), and I had a feeling like round ligament pain when I stood up earlier. DH is going to stop by the dollar store for tests when he can get away from work this week. I'll keep you posted.

 

As soon as you can confirm that you are pregnant, then act accordingly. Which would be no alcohol.

 

If you highly suspect you are pregnant, based on the information you have, then act as if you were.  You'll know for sure in a week. 

 

There doesn't seem to be a really good reason to drink alcohol at this time. 

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