When Did High School Become Jr. College?

[Hilltopmom]

Our rural districts don't offer AP anymore, for the most part. They offer DE in the high school, taught by high school teachers.

The one high school in town (small state U town) offers a couple AP classes.

 

It's definately not available everywhere.

And they would not let homeschoolers take exams there.

Edited June 4, 2017 by Hilltopmom

[mom31257]

^^ wow. Are you in either an extremely rural area or an extremely impoverished urban area?

 

I can't look around me to get ideas, because I live in the most academic hotbed in the entire US...but even "back home" in Jersey, or the not very awesome schools back in FL, there are tons of AP courses. It's the "big thing" everywhere I look. I'm trying to even picture a public high school in the US that only has one AP offering...

 

Just curious :)

My dh's school has 750 students and is the only high school in the county. They will only offer 2 AP classes next year, American Lit and US History.

 

There is a 4 year, state college in the same town. There are many doing dual enrollment; however, quite a few have not made good grades there this year.

Edited June 4, 2017 by mom31257

[snowbeltmom]

^^ wow.  Are you in either an extremely rural area or an extremely impoverished urban area?

 

I can't look around me to get ideas, because I live in the most academic hotbed in the entire US...but even "back home" in Jersey, or the not very awesome schools back in FL, there are tons of AP courses.  It's the "big thing" everywhere I look.   I'm trying to even picture a public high school in the US that only has one AP offering...

 

Just curious :)

 

You are fortunate that you can't look around and get ideas.  :)   I attended a public high school in an impoverished area that offered no APs and no college guidance. 

 

I was curious after catching up on this thread, too, to see if things had improved in my hometown:  My alma mater now offers at least one AP, but only 4% of the school population participates in the AP program and only 3% of the students have earned a 3 or higher on an AP exam.

 

I really wish that the quality of the education a child receives in this country did not rely on the child's zip code.

 

[madteaparty]

I really wish that the quality of the education a child receives in this country did not rely on the child's zip code.

 

It's a damn shame. Makes sense though, look at the hatred common core engenders.

[creekland]

^^ wow.  Are you in either an extremely rural area or an extremely impoverished urban area?

 

I can't look around me to get ideas, because I live in the most academic hotbed in the entire US...but even "back home" in Jersey, or the not very awesome schools back in FL, there are tons of AP courses.  It's the "big thing" everywhere I look.   I'm trying to even picture a public high school in the US that only has one AP offering...

 

Just curious :)

 

I work in a statistically average public school in PA.  No AP courses any longer (we used to offer them, but switched to DE some years back).  If a student were to self study, the guidance office would order the test for them, but that's a rarely chosen option TBH.  The Powers that Be in our school feel DE is superior since it doesn't rely on any test score to give credit.  With the AP test, too few students got credit (aka very few scored a 3 or higher).  With DE, it's totally up to the teacher.

[MarkT]

I work in a statistically average public school in PA.  No AP courses any longer (we used to offer them, but switched to DE some years back).  If a student were to self study, the guidance office would order the test for them, but that's a rarely chosen option TBH.  The Powers that Be in our school feel DE is superior since it doesn't rely on any test score to give credit.  With the AP test, too few students got credit (aka very few scored a 3 or higher).  With DE, it's totally up to the teacher.

You are hinting that the DE courses are easier for the students to get a passing grade then AP ... when the going gets tough we look for an easier route  

 

Of course - AP is a single test on a particular day (student could be sick, family emergency, etc) 

AP still sets a nation wide standard for honors level high school and we have so little of that in this country 

Edited June 4, 2017 by MarkT

[MamaSprout]

Well, actually there will be zero APs next year in our district unless someone gets certified over the summer. In the past, the offered a DE class at the school, but I think that teacher also retired.

 

We're in something of a small town, but it isn't especially rural or poor, just a little clueless and ambivalent. That's why we homeschool. Even with a local private college that has generous dual credit, the ambivalence extends deeply into the district- because ya know- you throw them all in together in kindergarten and everyone evens out by third grade....

Edited June 5, 2017 by elladarcy

[Guest]

You are hinting that the DE courses are easier for the students to get a passing grade then AP ... when the going gets tough we look for an easier route  

 

Of course - AP is a single test on a particular day (student could be sick, family emergency, etc) 

AP still sets a nation wide standard for honors level high school and we have so little of that in this country 

 

You are spot on.  what guidance tells students here is that AP comes down to a single test on a single day; DE is a better bet for the money (although its double AP; $89 for AP  vs 150 for DE at the high school; full price for DE at the CC) because your passing grade will get you college credit. What they don't mention is that DE courses may transfer, but won't always transfer for credit in a particular major and you will be paying for transcripts from all the different providers.Additionally, AP is seen as unfair to those who 'don't test well'.

 

Our personal experience is that CC algebra based physics at the CC is an order of magnitude easier than Regents Physics, and that is bc the CC is aiming for a pass for future LPNs, not providing an  honors Regents course.

[Guest]

And "college" standards got watered down.

 

Not as much a problem at more selective four year colleges/universities, but I wonder if the level of CC classes and intro level classes at four year state universities dipped after vocational ed. classes were largely eliminated in favor of pushing more students towards "college" of some sort. I keep hearing about the need for all these remedial classes at four year schools and wonder how students managed to get in if so much remediation is needed to bring them up to true college level.

 

Its the case that many coming from public school need remediation since they couldnt get a seat in college prep at the public high school, but have the ability to succeed.  So, in order to fill the college class, they are admitted and steered towards the courses they need.  My kid took English 102 at U; he couldn't get a seat in AP or DE in high school despite a greater than 95% psat score on English and writing, and had no trouble with the college course (bored out of his skull with high school gen ed English)  Same for preCalc...he couldn't get a seat in the DE version, so he took the gen ed and then took the college prep version at the U.  There simply are many students who are affected by disparate impact but have the ability to succeed in college if allowed in the prep courses.  The U is providing the prep courses for those who couldn't obtain a laptop, an internet connection, an online course and a quiet space to work in lieu of one of their four senior year study halls.  My son graduated last month, along with three other high school buddies who who couldn't get college prep seats in high school.  Interestingly, several of their friends who did get seats are drop outs and won't complete --  they were socially promoted and don't have the reading comprehension skills. It really opened his eyes to the value of high school, and he now knows that he gave himself a better education reading good books than the college prep section provides for SS and English.  Cost him a year in math courses though. His bud that is now at the Air Force Academy in Engineering went to CC for two years to get his college prep courses, since the high school couldn't seat him.  We are two hours away from a private school that would offer the level of education he needed for high school, and it would cost more than college. And I was seriously ill at the time.  So, extra college courses worked for our budget.  Public high schools on our commute route do provide APs and honors courses, but they were so overcrowded that they weren't accepting transfer students (at 10k tuition) when he was in high school. I don't beleive his U is watered down, from the material I examined, the effort he needed togapfill, and his friends who transferred from regional Us and watched their grades sink until they stepped up,

Edited June 5, 2017 by Heigh Ho

[SkateLeft]

For me, high school became junior college when universities started tacking on more and more general education requirements on top of 4 years of high school. It's a waste of time and money for good students, and keeps them from exploring the fields they might really be interested in. 

 

I took some community college classes during my senior year of high school in 1990 in Silicon Valley, including English 1A and 1B, which ended up being invaluable because they were prerequisites to so many other classes once I got to the university. So dual enrollment isn't a new thing. I think it was pretty limited to folks who knew how to work the system or lived in the right areas. Now it's just more widely available. That's a good thing.

 

I *hated* general education classes at the UC. I felt like I had to spend another two years wasting time before I could actually get to the classes in my major or even just classes in other subjects that I was interested in taking. Also, many GE classes were so impacted that it was sometimes hard to get into the GE classes I needed. It took me just over 5 years to graduate as a result.

 

Doing full-time dual enrollment in 11th and 12th grade let my older kids complete their general education requirements so that when they went off to university they were able to study what they wanted to study. That enabled my oldest to pursue dual degrees in two quite different fields, and let my younger dd explore some of the different engineering fields she was interested in before deciding.

 

With that said #3 will not be doing full-time dual enrollment, because he doesn't want to. He's going to take Calc 1 and College Writing 1 at the college in the fall, but the rest of his coursework will be at home with me. 

 

Dual enrollment is not for everyone, definitely. I'm very glad it's an option though.

 

 

[creekland]

You are hinting that the DE courses are easier for the students to get a passing grade then AP ... when the going gets tough we look for an easier route  

 

Of course - AP is a single test on a particular day (student could be sick, family emergency, etc) 

AP still sets a nation wide standard for honors level high school and we have so little of that in this country 

 

At the school I work at they are essentially the exact same courses... and yes, it is easier for the kids to get credit from DE because they are unable to pass an AP test (even on a perfectly good day for them).  State colleges have to accept these credits.  Many times kids come back and their stories didn't turn out like they expected them to due to a bad foundation.  My recommendation to all (who need the credit for future classes) is to retake things like Calc/Stats in college - to use our DE course as an "Intro" so it all isn't 100% new to them.

 

But that's one data point from the school I work at.  For more general info, it would be wise for DE students to take a look at previous AP tests (from study books or similar) and see if they could have done well on the test.  If so, they're fine - as prepared as those who did well on AP.  If not - beware.  If they don't need to continue on in the courses (like History, Bio, or Chem) and merely want to use the credits to satisfy Gen Eds, then there's no problem.

[wapiti]

For me, high school became junior college when universities started tacking on more and more general education requirements on top of 4 years of high school. It's a waste of time and money for good students, and keeps them from exploring the fields they might really be interested in. 

 

FWIW, core, general education requirements are not a recent development and I'd guess that having core requirements is actually much more traditional.  It just varies widely among colleges.  Back in the 80s, my alma mater had (and still has) core requirements for all undergrads, 2 semester classes each for English, history, philosophy, theology, science, math, arts, and social science (and back then required 4 semesters of foreign language though this is now gone, I think).  The university includes separate schools of Arts & Sciences, Business, Nursing, Education and a few others; however, it does not have an engineering school - it sounds like there's much more of an issue fitting everything in with engineering.