Uh oh. My cat is not a good neighbor. UPDATE post 65

[MEmama]

I'm sorry, but I don't get the outdoor cat thing. I understand in this case you've taken in a stray and that's wonderful, but why should your cat be allowed to run free and cause preventable problems for other people? In the past couple of years there have been a few new roaming outdoor cats in our neighbor hood and I'm sick of it. They stalk and kill the birds, they demand attention, they get in my way when I'm in the garden....we don't have pets because I don't want any, and that includes having to babysit other people's.

 

Rant aside, it's nice you are trying to resolve the problem at hand. Keeping your cat inside seems like the most obvious solution.

[Hilltopmom]

I have this problem with a couple of neighbor cats peeling on my front porch steps every day. It's disgusting, it's my house & it reeks of other people's cat pee.

I'm trying cayenne pepper soon, now that the weather is nice. But dh is about ready to trap & remove their pet cats.

I don't get why people think it's ok to let cats roam but not dogs, same issues. Gross.

[Mergath]

Very few people would object if you trapped and killed a rat and one could argue that the rat was happy and hurting no one. A feral cat seems very unhappy and unhealthy and is causing damage peeing where it shouldn't.

 

I've had several pet rats during my life, so I'm not feeling any burning need to trap the wild rats in my area and kill them, either. ;)

 

As long as something isn't endangering me or my family, I live and let live, and help when possible.  And I think all cities need to have programs where you can bring in stray or feral cats and the local human society or whatever will spay/neuter them and release them. I don't think we should let feral cats breed unchecked, but killing them is extreme.

[Mergath]

I have this problem with a couple of neighbor cats peeling on my front porch steps every day. It's disgusting, it's my house & it reeks of other people's cat pee.

I'm trying cayenne pepper soon, now that the weather is nice. But dh is about ready to trap & remove their pet cats.

I don't get why people think it's ok to let cats roam but not dogs, same issues. Gross.

 

The problem with roaming dogs is that they can become territorial over other peoples' property, and that can lead to aggression. Roaming cats might be annoying, but they aren't generally aggressive or dangerous to humans.

[Laura Corin]

The problem with roaming dogs is that they can become territorial over other peoples' property, and that can lead to aggression. Roaming cats might be annoying, but they aren't generally aggressive or dangerous to humans.

 

I don't know.  I try to be live and let live about things.  But the moment when I was digging in my garden in London (yes, wearing gloves) while pregnant and realised what a considerable proportion of cat crap the earth contained... yes, that seemed dangerous to me due to the toxoplasmosis risk.  The garden was walled, so no risk of roaming dogs.  

 

I sat and watched the weeds grow for the rest of my pregnancy - Husband can't weed due to long-term injury.  I didn't feel very charitable towards my neighbours.

[Mergath]

I don't know.  I try to be live and let live about things.  But the moment when I was digging in my garden in London (yes, wearing gloves) while pregnant and realised what a considerable proportion of cat crap the earth contained... yes, that seemed dangerous to me due to the toxoplasmosis risk.  The garden was walled, so no risk of roaming dogs.  

 

I sat and watched the weeds grow for the rest of my pregnancy - Husband can't weed due to long-term injury.  I didn't feel very charitable towards my neighbours.

 

Well, in all probability, everyone's garden is probably full of all kinds of animal crap. ;) I've actually seen websites recently that say pregnant woman shouldn't garden at all because of the risk of parasites and all that stuff from different animals. I've just been wearing my gardening gloves and getting on with it because I need my summer cucumber fix. :D 

 

Of course, I'm also still drinking coffee and eating sushi and brie occasionally, so I'm probably not a good source of info for that kind of thing, lol.

[Slartibartfast]

I've had several pet rats during my life, so I'm not feeling any burning need to trap the wild rats in my area and kill them, either. ;)

 

As long as something isn't endangering me or my family, I live and let live, and help when possible.  And I think all cities need to have programs where you can bring in stray or feral cats and the local human society or whatever will spay/neuter them and release them. I don't think we should let feral cats breed unchecked, but killing them is extreme.

 

Cats running amok is devastating to local bird populations. I wouldn't mind so much if when catching and releasing they also added some sort of noisy or highly visible collar 

 

http://www.audubon.org/news/how-stop-cats-killing-birds

Edited May 27, 2017 by Slartibartfast

[Hilltopmom]

Maybe not dangerous, but disgusting.

I cant use my beautiful front porch overlooking the lake because it reeks of cat pee, & everyone coming to my house is greeted with the nasty smell.

I also cant open my front windows that overlook the porch, because of the smell, so get no breeze off the lake or fresh air at all in my living room.

 

i call that more than just a nuisance.

Edited May 27, 2017 by Hilltopmom

[Alice]

Could you talk to one of the guests/people who go to your neighbor's house who isn't the caretaker? Putting aside the outdoor cat arugument...it seems the main issue is whether or not the area smells like pee and how much of an issue that is of the people who actually live in the house.

 

 

From what you've said, the neighbors liked the cat and don't have a problem with it being in their yard. They encouraged it. 

 

It sounds like the caretaker is the only one bothered by this. It could be a real issue or it could be she just hates cats and its grumpy about it or it could be that something else (the bushes) are mimicking the smell of cat pee to her. Different people can definitely experience different smells. Smell is arguably the most complex of all our senses and tiny genetic variations mean people experience smells differently. 

 

I would talk to one of the guests, if you know them, or a family member if you know them. If no one else is bothered by the smell, it seems like you have less of a problem. 

 

[Word Nerd]

Do they have juniper-type bushes near the front door? There is a particular type that always smells like cat pee to me, no cat required.

 

I haven't tried it, but what about a product like this?

 

Erica in OR

That's what I wondered. There are some outside our ortho's office, and they smell horrid. Edited May 27, 2017 by Word Nerd

[Guest]

I am going to be brief because I don't want to come off as a snarky troll:

 

My family has always had indoor only cats. In an ideal world, this would not be the case but we don't live in an ideal world. My little boy doesn't spray at all as long as I change his litter twice a week. YMMV depending how old your own little boy was when he was demasculated or other factors I may not be aware of and whether you prefer scooping out the clumping litter or just changing the whole box.

 

I've had to bury too many cats, some of whom didn't even look like cats after they got hit by cars, to be receptive to any of the other advice on this thread or to be able to control myself enough not to come off as a troll if I read them.

 

My little boy DOES wake me up in the middle of the night and disrupt lessons sometimes because we live in a small house and don't have "another room" to put him in, but life is full of tradeoffs.

 

Thank you for rescuing a homeless cat, regardless of whether you roll your eyes and put me on your block list and try something else that somebody else suggested that I am not going to read.

Edited May 27, 2017 by Guest

[Mergath]

Cats running amok is devastating to local bird populations. I wouldn't mind so much if when catching and releasing they also added some sort of noisy or highly visible collar 

 

http://www.audubon.org/news/how-stop-cats-killing-birds

 

I agree. If they can design tracking collars for wild bears, surely there's a way to create a low-cost durable jingle collar for feral cats. It would be a good way to tell which cats have already been trapped and fixed, too.

 

(ETA: Or I could have just read your link, lol. That's extremely cute. :D)

 

And so many of these problems would be solved by people getting their cats fixed. Outdoor cats don't bother me, but good lord people, get your cat fixed so he/she doesn't get knocked up or impregnate half the other neighborhood cats. I know people who refuse to get their cats fixed, then boot them outside when they're in heat, and then dump the resulting kittens at the humane society each and every time. It makes me ragey to the point of violence. If everyone gets their pet cats fixed and we trap and fix as many feral cats as possible, the feral cat population would be a good deal lower and not nearly so annoying.

 

Edited May 27, 2017 by Mergath

[KungFuPanda]

Ugh. Nothing smells as sharp as cat pee. I can't believe people would just live with it and be OK smelling like that all the time. I wouldn't live with it just because my neighbor loved cats. I'd probably try 3 or 4 different things, then if they all failed, and the owners couldn't control the cat, I'd have the cat picked up. It doesn't seem like the op is actually a pet owner. It's more like she's just taking extreme care of local wildlife. My MIL used to do that but stopped feeding the animals when she attracted skunks to the free outdoor buffet. That's what it took for her to realize she was creating an unnatural pest problem for her neighbors.

 

Of course, since the pee-bush-neighbors started this all, I'm thinking they might not even care.

[Bensmom]

UPDATE: Good news/Bad news

 

 

The good news is the smell is not coming from my cat. The bad news is it the bushes themselves. I had never heard of this before, but stinky shrubs appear to be a real thing. I looked it up after we went over investigating (I am sure we looked a little odd to people driving by!), and it appears that they may just be particularly smelly during late spring. Hopefully, it will soon pass. Now I am curious if they have always been smelly in the spring and my elderly neighbors just don't remember or if conditions were just right this year to produce more smell.

[Bensmom]

dp

Edited May 28, 2017 by Bensmom

[JustEm]

UPDATE: Good news/Bad news

 

 

The good news is the smell is not coming from my cat. The bad news is it the bushes themselves. I had never heard of this before, but stinky shrubs appear to be a real thing. I looked it up after we went over investigating (I am sure we looked a little odd to people driving by!), and it appears that they may just be particularly smelly during late spring. Hopefully, it will soon pass. Now I am curious if they have always been smelly in the spring and my elderly neighbors just don't remember or if conditions were just right this year to produce more smell.

They were likely always pretty smelly in the spring but some people have more sensitive noses. My mil never noticed her cat pee smelling bushes until I pointed them out. Even once I pointed them out she acknowledged she could smell it but that it was a faint smell. To me it was so strong I could sit out front near them without getting grossed out.

[MercyA]

Cats running amok is devastating to local bird populations. I wouldn't mind so much if when catching and releasing they also added some sort of noisy or highly visible collar 

 

http://www.audubon.org/news/how-stop-cats-killing-birds

 

Love this collar! What a great idea! The cats don't exactly look amused, but, hey, it's better than some alternatives.

[MercyA]

I really don't understand the idea that feral cats should be killed because they kill songbirds. So do hawks, owls, snakes, raccoons, skunks, possums, and all kinds of other creatures, and I haven't seen it suggested that we kill them because of it. In any case, feral cats eat more bugs, rodents, and garbage than they do birds--those foods are much easier to come by. When cats do kill birds, they tend to kill those who are weaker and/or diseased. 

 

Cats have domesticated for 10,000+ years, but they've only been exclusively indoor animals for 60-70 years. This is not to say that an indoor life isn't much safer for cats and more agreeable for neighbors, but that ideal situation just isn't possible for all cats. I don't think killing them is the only or best solution.

Edited May 28, 2017 by MercyA

[Tanaqui]

I really don't understand the idea that feral cats should be killed because they kill songbirds. So do hawks, owls, snakes, raccoons, skunks, possums, and all kinds of other creatures, and I haven't seen it suggested that we kill them because of it.

 

Yes, but hawks, owls, snakes, etc. are part of the ecosystem. Feral cats are disruptive to it.

 

[Cecropia]

I really don't understand the idea that feral cats should be killed because they kill songbirds. So do hawks, owls, snakes, raccoons, skunks, possums, and all kinds of other creatures, and I haven't seen it suggested that we kill them because of it. In any case, feral cats eat more bugs, rodents, and garbage than they do birds--those foods are much easier to come by. When cats do kill birds, they tend to kill those who are weaker and/or diseased.

 

Feral cats are considered an invasive species -- they're part of the "100 worst" list of the Global Invasive Species Database.  An invasive species that is very successful, with a strong negative impact on native species, should be controlled.

http://www.iucngisd.org/gisd/speciesname/Felis+catus

[MercyA]

Yes, but hawks, owls, snakes, etc. are part of the ecosystem. Feral cats are disruptive to it.

 

Feral cats are considered an invasive species -- they're part of the "100 worst" list of the Global Invasive Species Database.  An invasive species that is very successful, with a strong negative impact on native species, should be controlled.

http://www.iucngisd.org/gisd/speciesname/Felis+catus

 

Feral cats are part of our current ecosystem, and no one can accurately predict the results of removing them, particularly because they prey on other predators, such as rats.

 

I don't believe in killing living beings to return the world to a more natural state. I fully support TNR programs.

 

A few interesting studies:

 

Indirect effects of invasive species removal devastate World Heritage Island from the Journal of Applied Ecology

 

Cats protecting birds: modelling the mesopredator release effect from the Journal of Animal Ecology

 

Cats protecting birds revisited from the Bulletin of Mathematical Biology

 

Edited May 28, 2017 by MercyA

[Cecropia]

Feral cats are part of our current ecosystem, and no one can accurately predict the results of removing them, particularly because they prey on other predators, such as rats.

 

I don't believe in killing living beings to return the world to a more natural state. I fully support TNR programs.

 

Are you in favor of treating other destructive invasive species like the emerald ash borer and zebra mussels the same way?

 

I feel like cats get a pass because they are cute, furry mammals and traditionally kept as companions.  Positive connotations all the way.

[MercyA]

Are you in favor of treating other destructive invasive species like the emerald ash borer and zebra mussels the same way?

 

I feel like cats get a pass because they are cute, furry mammals and traditionally kept as companions.  Positive connotations all the way.

 

I confess I didn't know anything about emerald ash borers or zebra mussels, so I did a quick google search. 

 

I can say for sure that cats feel joy and sorrow, pain and pleasure, fear and trust. They give every indication of having a soul. I can't say that for sure about insects or mollusks. I feel a similar desire to protect pigs and they are not exactly cute and furry (except maybe as babies). 

 

Generally speaking, I'm in favor of giving all living creatures "a pass," when possible, if that means not killing them. 

 

Certainly it is a topic I should consider further.

 

Have to run for the day! Thanks for the food for thought.  :)

[maize]

I would be delighted to put those bird protective collars on my cats if I had any guarantee they would stay on. I've tried collars before and they last a day or less before my cats manage to lose them (doesn't take that much effort for a determined cat to get out of a breakaway collar)

[Carrie12345]

I confess I didn't know anything about emerald ash borers or zebra mussels, so I did a quick google search. 

 

I can say for sure that cats feel joy and sorrow, pain and pleasure, fear and trust. They give every indication of having a soul. I can't say that for sure about insects or mollusks. I feel a similar desire to protect pigs and they are not exactly cute and furry (except maybe as babies). 

 

Generally speaking, I'm in favor of giving all living creatures "a pass," when possible, if that means not killing them. 

 

Certainly it is a topic I should consider further.

 

Have to run for the day! Thanks for the food for thought.  :)

 

Considering how many dead cats I regularly pass on the side of the road, the number of beat up cats that come through my property, and my constant fear of killing one when I start my car in the winter, pain is one of the reasons I'd like laws about outdoor cats and eradication of feral colonies.

[MercyA]

Considering how many dead cats I regularly pass on the side of the road, the number of beat up cats that come through my property, and my constant fear of killing one when I start my car in the winter, pain is one of the reasons I'd like laws about outdoor cats and eradication of feral colonies.

 

By eradication of feral colonies, do you mean the cats in them should be killed? I personally don't feel right about preemptively killing animals because they might die later.

 

I mean, I do understand. I killed a cat who had crawled up in my engine compartment once. It was awful, horrible, heartbreaking. It is not exaggerating to say that it is one of my worst memories--and of course was much worse for the cat. He was a barn cat who lived outside at a relative's home. Given the choice, though, I am not sure that he would have rather been euthanized early on and lost out on all his years of life to avoid a few minutes of pain. I am certain that being trapped, being held in a small cage at a noisy, confusing shelter, and finally being held down by strangers for an injection would have been a much longer traumatizing experience. When I park my car outside in the cold, now, I bang on the hood every time before starting it.

 

I adopted a stray who showed up at our house. We are allergic to cats, so we built him his own room in our garage, with a cat door leading outdoors. The room (enclosed in chicken wire, with a screen door) prevented him from getting up in our cars. We gave him a soft bed, clean blankets, tasty food, vaccinations, veterinary care, a neutering surgery, and lots of love. He loved to hunt and he loved to come home. He lived with us under a year before (we believe) he was killed by a coyote. I don't think it would have been better for him to have been dropped at the humane society to be euthanized and missed out on the good life he had with us.

 

Most feral cats are healthier than you might think. A 2006 study in the Journal of Feline Medicine and Surgery found that out of 103,643 feral cats admitted to TNR programs from 1993 to 2004, only 0.4% of cats required euthanasia because of debilitating conditions and 0.4% died during the TNR clinics. More than 99% of them were healthy. 

 

TNR programs stop feral cats from reproducing. That is the best solution, IMHO. If you catch and kill cats instead, other cats will move in to fill the vacuum (where there is food and shelter, there will be cats). Thus you have an endless--and I believe cruel--cycle.  

[Reefgazer]

Amen, sister.  If it's here, it's a biotic part of the ecosystem.

Feral cats are part of our current ecosystem, and no one can accurately predict the results of removing them, particularly because they prey on other predators, such as rats.

 

I don't believe in killing living beings to return the world to a more natural state. I fully support TNR programs.

 

A few interesting studies:

 

Indirect effects of invasive species removal devastate World Heritage Island from the Journal of Applied Ecology

 

Cats protecting birds: modelling the mesopredator release effect from the Journal of Animal Ecology

 

Cats protecting birds revisited from the Bulletin of Mathematical Biology

 

[Cinder]

UPDATE: Good news/Bad news

 

 

The good news is the smell is not coming from my cat. The bad news is it the bushes themselves. I had never heard of this before, but stinky shrubs appear to be a real thing. I looked it up after we went over investigating (I am sure we looked a little odd to people driving by!), and it appears that they may just be particularly smelly during late spring. Hopefully, it will soon pass. Now I am curious if they have always been smelly in the spring and my elderly neighbors just don't remember or if conditions were just right this year to produce more smell.

 

There's a church near us that has a number of trees which, when its flowers start blooming in spring, give off a rotten fish smell. :ack2:

[eternalsummer]

By eradication of feral colonies, do you mean the cats in them should be killed? I personally don't feel right about preemptively killing animals because they might die later.

 

I mean, I do understand. I killed a cat who had crawled up in my engine compartment once. It was awful, horrible, heartbreaking. It is not exaggerating to say that it is one of my worst memories--and of course was much worse for the cat. He was a barn cat who lived outside at a relative's home. Given the choice, though, I am not sure that he would have rather been euthanized early on and lost out on all his years of life to avoid a few minutes of pain. I am certain that being trapped, being held in a small cage at a noisy, confusing shelter, and finally being held down by strangers for an injection would have been a much longer traumatizing experience. When I park my car outside in the cold, now, I bang on the hood every time before starting it.

 

I adopted a stray who showed up at our house. We are allergic to cats, so we built him his own room in our garage, with a cat door leading outdoors. The room (enclosed in chicken wire, with a screen door) prevented him from getting up in our cars. We gave him a soft bed, clean blankets, tasty food, vaccinations, veterinary care, a neutering surgery, and lots of love. He loved to hunt and he loved to come home. He lived with us under a year before (we believe) he was killed by a coyote. I don't think it would have been better for him to have been dropped at the humane society to be euthanized and missed out on the good life he had with us.

 

Most feral cats are healthier than you might think. A 2006 study in the Journal of Feline Medicine and Surgery found that out of 103,643 feral cats admitted to TNR programs from 1993 to 2004, only 0.4% of cats required euthanasia because of debilitating conditions and 0.4% died during the TNR clinics. More than 99% of them were healthy. 

 

TNR programs stop feral cats from reproducing. That is the best solution, IMHO. If you catch and kill cats instead, other cats will move in to fill the vacuum (where there is food and shelter, there will be cats). Thus you have an endless--and I believe cruel--cycle.  

 

would have been a better life for the squirrels and birds and chipmunks and rabbits he killed, though

 

(on the whole, I agree with you, but I am not sure that it's a simple moral issue of preserving life)

[MercyA]

would have been a better life for the squirrels and birds and chipmunks and rabbits he killed, though

 

(on the whole, I agree with you, but I am not sure that it's a simple moral issue of preserving life)

 

No doubt, and I hated that he killed other animals. However, I couldn't in good conscience sentence him to death. That would be on me. It would be a very certain taking of life. His predation, on the other hand, seemed more a part of nature and less a decision, because we could not keep him inside.

 

Cats go for the easiest meals, usually--the incautious, the weak, the young. The animals may have been killed by other predators if he were not in the picture. I kept him well-fed so that he didn't need to hunt. 

 

Generally speaking, I don't like preemptive killing to attempt to save lives. But that is a whole other discussion.  :)

 

ETA: I am reminded of a conversation I had with an older farmer at our church after my cat's death. He said, "Don't you wish I had shot that coyote?" No--I would not have wanted him to go out killing coyotes on the chance that one of them might later kill my cat. 

Edited May 29, 2017 by MercyA

[GoodGrief]

A side note, some of you might enjoy the film "Kedi" about feral urban cats in Istanbul. It's in Turkish with English subtitles. I am not a cat person, but really enjoyed it.

[eternalsummer]

I agree with you in sentiment and in instinct, but I question whether that is just weakness on my part instead of responsibility, as I have not thought it through but rather just say instinctively that an outdoor cat (for a cat who is unhappy indoors) is an okay and natural thing.

[Slartibartfast]

I really don't understand the idea that feral cats should be killed because they kill songbirds. So do hawks, owls, snakes, raccoons, skunks, possums, and all kinds of other creatures, and I haven't seen it suggested that we kill them because of it. In any case, feral cats eat more bugs, rodents, and garbage than they do birds--those foods are much easier to come by. When cats do kill birds, they tend to kill those who are weaker and/or diseased. 

 

Cats have domesticated for 10,000+ years, but they've only been exclusively indoor animals for 60-70 years. This is not to say that an indoor life isn't much safer for cats and more agreeable for neighbors, but that ideal situation just isn't possible for all cats. I don't think killing them is the only or best solution.

Hawks, owls, snakes, skunks, possums kill for sustenance or to feed their young. Cats kill for fun, they are very different creatures.

 

Some songbirds nest closer to the ground and those tend to be vulnerable. Nesting boxes can help with this

 

http://nestwatch.org/learn/all-about-birdhouses/dealing-with-predators/

 

 

https://www.allaboutbirds.org/faq-outdoor-cats-and-their-effects-on-birds/

 

 

Cats are not native to North America. Because of the help they receive from humans, they exist at much higher densities than native predators such as hawks, owls, and foxes do. This means that their effect on native animals is much higher than the effect of native predators.

 

The establishment or maintenance of cat colonies encourages people to release additional cats (Castillo and Clarke 2003). In some cases, TNR may actually increase population size compared to no intervention at all (McCarthy et al. 2013).

 

TNR does not address the risks and hardships that cats face living in the wild and that contribute to an average life expectancy of as little as 2 years, including injury, disease, predation, vehicle collisions, and maiming during cat-cat fights. Certain animal welfare groups, such as People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals, also oppose TNR for these reasons.

Much of this article is actually contrary to the other article I have posted here. :lol:

 

 

On the other hand, feral cats, because they obtain a large proportion of their nutrition from what they can scavenge or kill, probably represent a significant threat to wildlife in places where they are numerous. In Australia and New Zealand, where they seem to be able to compete effectively with other predators, feral cats have been able to spread into wilderness areas. In the United States and Europe, with their much more robust sets of native predators, feral cats rarely flourish unless they are being fed by people. Thus, the real issue is how best to manage feral cats, not whether to restrict pet cats indoors.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/animalia/wp/2016/09/02/cats-are-bird-killers-these-animal-experts-let-theirs-outside-anyway/?utm_term=.763864327524

Edited May 29, 2017 by Slartibartfast

[Slartibartfast]

I kept him well-fed so that he didn't need to hunt.

Cats hunt regardless of whether or not they are hungry. It is in their nature to hunt.

Edited May 29, 2017 by Slartibartfast

[eternalsummer]

My mom's two cats kill an obscene number of small fuzzy things.  They bring them in or leave them on the porch.  At least 3-4 rabbits a week, a couple of chipmunks, dozens of mice, the occasional bird.

 

 

Seems like there are still a lot of squirrels around, though.  We used to have a lot of rabbits in the side yard, but they are gone.

 

On the other hand, they do keep mice out of the house, mostly.  That is great.

[eternalsummer]

Sometimes her cats eat the things, especially the mice.  I found one cat eating a mouse under the ping pong table - as I walked by, he was licking it.  Ugh ugh ugh ugh.  He leaves the tails.

[MercyA]

It isn't true that cats kill mostly weaker or diseased birds, I have never seen an article that stated as such. 

 

"Across species, cat-killed birds were in significantly poorer condition than those killed following collisions; this is consistent with the notion that cat predation represents a compensatory rather than additive form of mortality."

 

"Birds killed by cats had significantly lower mass, fat scores, and pectoral muscle mass scores.â€

 

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1474-919X.2008.00836.x/full

 

Cats hunt regardless of whether or not they are hungry. It is in their nature to hunt and they will do it for fun.

 

Truth.

Edited May 29, 2017 by MercyA