KarenNC Posted October 30, 2008 Share Posted October 30, 2008 Others think that God doesn't know the future but has the ability to control its outcome through divine intervention, so things will end up the way he wants them even if he doesn't always know what is coming. And others believe that God has a plan, but doesn't know what the future holds, including whether or not things are going to work out the way he wants them to. Fascinating! Learn something new every day :). Can you give me an example of specific Christian denominations that hold to these two teachings? I haven't encountered either of them before and I thought I had explored a pretty wide range of Christianity in the 3 decades that I kept trying to convince myself that I could somehow be Christian. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lovedtodeath Posted October 30, 2008 Share Posted October 30, 2008 God gives holy spirit freely to those who truly wish to understand and therefore humble themselves. I have listed scriptures that support this in earlier posts. Matt. 7:11: "If you, although being wicked [or, "bad as you are," NE], know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more so will your Father who is in the heavens give good things to those asking him?" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Governess Posted October 30, 2008 Share Posted October 30, 2008 Fascinating! Learn something new every day :). Can you give me an example of specific Christian denominations that hold to these two teachings? I haven't encountered either of them before and I thought I had explored a pretty wide range of Christianity in the 3 decades that I kept trying to convince myself that I could somehow be Christian. The book I read that discussed these beliefs was called The Openness of God. It discusses what is called Open Theism, or the idea that the future is unknown to God. People who believe this theology still believe that God is all-knowing, in that he knows everything that *can* be known. But they don't believe that anyone, even God, can know the future, because it hasn't happened yet. I'm not sure if there is a particular Christian denomination that adheres to this theology. But the book does offer an interesting viewpoint, and I'm glad I read it, even if I don't necessarily adhere to the beliefs that are presented. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lovedtodeath Posted October 30, 2008 Share Posted October 30, 2008 (edited) Sorry, I don't understand your point. Are you saying that Christianity does *not* consider God to be omniscient or that only Jesus was not omniscient (and if so, what does that do to the argument that He is fully God)? Or something else entirely? I thought the omniscience of the Deity was pretty much a requirement for monotheists. I'm afraid I am not getting how the citation ties into this? I am saying that my religion believes differently than the majority... in accord with the scriptures I cited. I have probably alienated myself quite a bit on this thread. Edited October 30, 2008 by Lovedtodeath Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarenNC Posted October 30, 2008 Share Posted October 30, 2008 The book I read that discussed these beliefs was called The Openness of God. It discusses what is called Open Theism, or the idea that the future is unknown to God. People who believe this theology still believe that God is all-knowing, in that he knows everything that *can* be known. But they don't believe that anyone, even God, can know the future, because it hasn't happened yet. I'm not sure if there is a particular Christian denomination that adheres to this theology. But the book does offer an interesting viewpoint, and I'm glad I read it, even if I don't necessarily adhere to the beliefs that are presented. Thanks. I looked it up and found that the author of the book is a Seventh-Day Adventist theologian. Any SDA members who could tell us if this is considered "orthodox" within that denomination or controversial? I hesitate to assume that it is based on one example, since, for instance, Matthew Fox's books would not be considered to be "standard" Catholic theological teachings. Other than Rice, the SDA theologian, most of the rest of the folks listed as proponents of open theism seem to fall within the Evangelical movement and be considered controversial even there. Again, interesting and thanks for the stimulating theological discussion. It's been a while since I've been able to indulge---comparative theology is a lot of fun:D. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarenNC Posted October 30, 2008 Share Posted October 30, 2008 I am saying that my religion believes differently than the majority... in accord with the scriptures I cited. I have probably alienated myself quite a bit on this thread. Ah. Which religion would that be, btw, if you don't mind my asking, so that I have a frame of reference? As for alienating oneself, try telling folks that you are a polytheist who actually believe in the Greek Gods;). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunshine Posted October 30, 2008 Share Posted October 30, 2008 I am saying that my religion believes differently than the majority... in accord with the scriptures I cited. I have probably alienated myself quite a bit on this thread. Certainly you have not alienated anyone. You believe what you believe and I would be appalled if someone, especially the members of this board, condemn you for your sincere beliefs. It would scream hypocrisy. There will be differences in beliefs. There will be different doctrines and some will be false, some will not believe. But here on this board, with homeschooling as our center common ground, we have similar beliefs in putting our children first, that usually indicates a tolerant, semi-educated person. Right WTMinders? Or at least someone with enough intelligence not to say I want nothing to do with you because you have strong Christian beliefs. If there is someone like that I am sure they are in the minority and hopefully will not last on this board. I like you just fine!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ma23peas Posted October 30, 2008 Share Posted October 30, 2008 Jumping in here just to give an analogy...we can often get caught up in theological debates but often times they distract us from our 'calling'...so I kindly impress upon those who are seeking to not rely on man but on God....it was explained well to me by a very humble older gentleman one time.. Take the knowledge of a dog. Take the knowledge of a man. Both can respond to love, both understand basic concepts of hunger/pain/comfort...but can a dog understand how to interpret the news in the WSJ or NYT..can a dog choose to send a birthday card? That is how our knowledge of God and who He is may be best correlated. Our knowledge of him is that of a dog and He is the human...we will NEVER be able to fathom His wisdom, His strength, His mercy until we are with Him...what we do have is the Bible and the Holy Spirit to reveal wisdom to us. There are many books that are touted as a "must read" to strengthen your spiritual life..I'm not trying to knock them..but they will never outlast the life the Bible has seen. There is a purpose for that. Tara Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Governess Posted October 30, 2008 Share Posted October 30, 2008 Again, interesting and thanks for the stimulating theological discussion. It's been a while since I've been able to indulge---comparative theology is a lot of fun:D. Thanks to you too! I love comparing theologies as well. :D I'm interested to see if any SDA members respond. And I wonder if the evangelicals embracing this doctrine are part of the "emerging church" movement.... seems likely to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asta Posted October 30, 2008 Share Posted October 30, 2008 Yes.. Jesus plainly did claim to be God, and those who opposed Him openly acknowledged His claim, and were outraged by it. Just tonight at youth group we read this passage from John 6:32-40: Jesus then said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, it was not Moses who gave you the bread from heaven, but my Father gives you the true bread from heaven. For the bread of God is he who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world." They said to him, "Sir, give us this bread always." Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst. But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe. All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day." So Jesus here claims... to have come down from heaven, be able to give life to the world, that people will benefit greatly by believing in Him, to be able to grant eternal life, etc. There are so many other examples of where Jesus claims deity, that the list could go on and on. I would suggest to those who think he only claimed to be a good man to reread at least the book of John. Erica I have to disagree with this. Being recorded as speaking in the first person ("I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst.") does not equate to literally saying "Hey guys, I'm GOD". And, as another poster mentioned, I'm also short on chapter verse (Catholics aren't Bible searchers, they're listeners), but I seem to recall having it drilled into my head for about 20 years that, when Jesus was arrested by the Romans and accused of calling himself God, his defense was that he, himself had never done so, his followers had. Son of God, great guy, whatever - he was human; he didn't want to die. He may have known he HAD to die, but he didn't WANT to die. Crucifixion is an ugly, ugly thing. asta Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unsinkable Posted October 30, 2008 Share Posted October 30, 2008 I fully understood that you were sharing your belief, and I truly appreciate hearing your perspective. I don't agree with many of you, but I am learning something from all of you and I am glad that the discussion has been very open and civil. BTW Unsinkable do you suppose it is a sin that I find your sig line to be hilarious?? :lol: Thank you, Cindy! About the sig line: Did you mean the 2nd part? That is just my lame attempt at live and let live (I guess except for goats.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beansprouts Posted October 30, 2008 Share Posted October 30, 2008 Thank you, Cindy! About the sig line: Did you mean the 2nd part? That is just my lame attempt at live and let live (I guess except for goats.) I laughed because I know the origin of the quote. This may be a confession, as I don't remember whether the information was given publicly or I was out snooping at the time I read it... :blush: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scarlett Posted October 30, 2008 Share Posted October 30, 2008 I laughed because I know the origin of the quote. This may be a confession, as I don't remember whether the information was given publicly or I was out snooping at the time I read it... :blush: :confused: Snooping where? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beansprouts Posted October 30, 2008 Share Posted October 30, 2008 As for alienating oneself, try telling folks that you are a polytheist who actually believe in the Greek Gods;). I am not so easily alienated, sorry! :001_smile: The Greek Gods are fascinating. How was it you came to this belief? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beansprouts Posted October 30, 2008 Share Posted October 30, 2008 :confused: Snooping where? The Social groups. Maybe I shouldn't have mentioned it. Quite a few people were sore over the whole thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scarlett Posted October 30, 2008 Share Posted October 30, 2008 The Social groups. Maybe I shouldn't have mentioned it. Quite a few people were sore over the whole thing. Oh. I thought you had access to our PMs or something. :tongue_smilie: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erica in PA Posted October 30, 2008 Share Posted October 30, 2008 I have to disagree with this. Being recorded as speaking in the first person ("I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst.") does not equate to literally saying "Hey guys, I'm GOD". I'm not sure what you're saying here... the extended passage that I posted contains Jesus claiming many things, not just "speaking in the first person"-- in the passage he claims to have come from heaven, he cames to be able to give eternal life, he says that eternal life comes from believing in Him-- if someone walked up to you on the street and started claiming these things, would you think, "Wow, what a moral man!" No, you would think he was crazy, because he was claiming to be God. And this passage is by far not the only or most clear one to demonstrate that Jesus claimed to be God. There are many throughout the Gospels, and others have posted some of them in this thread. I only posted this one because we studied it tonight at youth group, so it was fresh in my mind. Erica Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarenNC Posted October 30, 2008 Share Posted October 30, 2008 I am not so easily alienated, sorry! :001_smile: The Greek Gods are fascinating. How was it you came to this belief? Good :001_smile:. The easiest thing (since I am actually supposed to be doing schoolwork with my daughter, though theological discussions are much more fun than long division:D) is to send you to my husband's blog, in particular his posts on: http://executivepagan.wordpress.com/2007/03/09/why-polytheism/ , http://executivepagan.wordpress.com/2007/03/13/why-hellenism/ and http://executivepagan.wordpress.com/2007/03/26/why-druidry/. Much of this journey has been together and similar. This one is also interesting http://executivepagan.wordpress.com/2008/09/02/becoming-pagan-in-america-an-otherworld-journey/ (well, I think it's pretty much *all* interesting, but then I'm married to him;)). Our paths are a bit different in some ways. I came from an extremely Calvinist background, totally immersed in the Church (attending worship 2-3 x a week, plus an hour of devotionals every day from the time I was preschool/kindergarten-aged), but was never what one would call an "orthodox" Christian. As early as age 10 I can remember making offerings to the "spirits of the place" though I didn't know what to call them, despite having absolutely no idea that anyone else ever did such a thing (I specifically remember putting flowers and other small gifts in the walls of the basement that was being finished asking for protection for the house and family). I had a pretty dramatic break with the very fundamentalist Christianity of my youth when I got out of college, but went on to become very involved with liberal Episcopal Christianity for many years, hoping to find a way to be Christian there. Ultimately it did not work. While I adored the liturgy and ritual (still do), I could no longer fool myself that I actually believed the words I was saying each week, hard as I tried. As you will see if you visit my husband's blog, an attempt to remain monotheist through Reform Judaism also didn't work. Monotheism simply does not mesh with my experience of spiritual reality. The Hellenic Gods are the ones who have, for some reason, chosen to be involved with me, and for that I am grateful. There's a concept in at least parts of Judaism that converts are "Jewish souls who ended up in Gentile bodies" and they are just coming home when they convert. That's been my experience with Hellenism. After 30+ years of searching, I became finally at peace within myself without feeling as if I was constantly trying to shove a square peg into a round hole. It's not been an easy path, as the Gods know it is not exactly a popular one, either in my communities or my extended family, but it is the only way that I can *be* with integrity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ma23peas Posted October 30, 2008 Share Posted October 30, 2008 I have to disagree with this. but I seem to recall having it drilled into my head for about 20 years that, when Jesus was arrested by the Romans and accused of calling himself God, his defense was that he, himself had never done so, his followers had. Son of God, great guy, whatever - he was human; he didn't want to die. He may have known he HAD to die, but he didn't WANT to die. Crucifixion is an ugly, ugly thing. asta 15"But what about you?" he asked. "Who do you say I am?" 16Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ,[b] the Son of the living God." 17Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven. 18And I tell you that you are Peter,[c] and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades[d] will not overcome it.[e] 19I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be[f] bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be[g] loosed in heaven." 20Then he warned his disciples not to tell anyone that he was the Christ. 62Then the high priest stood up and said to Jesus, "Are you not going to answer? What is this testimony that these men are bringing against you?" 63But Jesus remained silent. The high priest said to him, "I charge you under oath by the living God: Tell us if you are the Christ,[e] the Son of God." 64"Yes, it is as you say," Jesus replied. "But I say to all of you: In the future you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven." 65Then the high priest tore his clothes and said, "He has spoken blasphemy! Why do we need any more witnesses? Look, now you have heard the blasphemy. 66What do you think?" "He is worthy of death," they answered. 67Then they spit in his face and struck him with their fists. Others slapped him 68and said, "Prophesy to us, Christ. Who hit you?" Sharing the word as He said it. Tara Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laura Corin Posted October 30, 2008 Share Posted October 30, 2008 Really? I would be interested in learning more about others that do! Have I misunderestimated, to use a Bush-ism, the number of people who view it this way? I thought it was so rare as to be virtually negligible. This is from the Church of England website: "We view the Old and New Testaments 'as containing all things necessary for salvation' and as being the rule and ultimate standard of faith." That's not at all the same as believing that every word of the bible is literally true. For example, my Anglican friends are entirely convinced of an evolutionary timeline, and quite happy to view Creation, as written in the bible, as a parable. Laura Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nmoira Posted October 30, 2008 Share Posted October 30, 2008 This is from the Church of England website: "We view the Old and New Testaments 'as containing all things necessary for salvation' and as being the rule and ultimate standard of faith." That's not at all the same as believing that every word of the bible is literally true. For example, my Anglican friends are entirely convinced of an evolutionary timeline, and quite happy to view Creation, as written in the bible, as a parable. I was brought up Anglican and this reflects my experience within the Church. Here's an excerpt from an Episcopalian sermon discussing just this question: In just what sense is the Bible “Word of God†for us? Anglicans believe that the Spirit of God did indeed inspire the authors of Scripture, but that the words of Scripture themselves are human words that bear the imprint of their human origin in particular circumstances and moments in human history. We believe therefore that it is appropriate to apply to them all the tools now available to scholars to help discern the context in place and time, and the human dynamics –the power plays, persecutions, family feuds, or realpolitik–which formed their original backdrop and could not fail to influence their authors. The words of the Bible are anchored in human history and mediate actual events, but they are words which both reveal–and conceal–events, and the human motives that prompted, and lie behind, them. It should come as no surprise that they invite us into speculation, probing research, conversation, and debate. Jesus himself, after all, rarely seems to have given a “straight answer†to any question, often responding to one question with another, always challenging and inviting people to think more deeply, to “put out into deep waters.†Today’s parable is a case in point: like so many of Jesus’ stories, it seems designed to raise questions as much as to answer them, and to puzzle as much as enlighten, through a process that Paul Ricoeur once described as “reorientation by disorientation.†Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asta Posted October 30, 2008 Share Posted October 30, 2008 15"But what about you?" he asked. "Who do you say I am?" 16Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ,[b] the Son of the living God." 17Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven. 18And I tell you that you are Peter,[c] and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades[d] will not overcome it.[e] 19I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be[f] bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be[g] loosed in heaven." 20Then he warned his disciples not to tell anyone that he was the Christ. 62Then the high priest stood up and said to Jesus, "Are you not going to answer? What is this testimony that these men are bringing against you?" 63But Jesus remained silent. The high priest said to him, "I charge you under oath by the living God: Tell us if you are the Christ,[e] the Son of God." 64"Yes, it is as you say," Jesus replied. "But I say to all of you: In the future you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven." 65Then the high priest tore his clothes and said, "He has spoken blasphemy! Why do we need any more witnesses? Look, now you have heard the blasphemy. 66What do you think?" "He is worthy of death," they answered. 67Then they spit in his face and struck him with their fists. Others slapped him 68and said, "Prophesy to us, Christ. Who hit you?" Sharing the word as He said it. Tara At the risk of splitting hairs and starting a fight... again, Jesus didn't say he was God: someone else said he was. All he did was agree with their assumption on the way to his execution. asta Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunshine Posted October 30, 2008 Share Posted October 30, 2008 (edited) Good :001_smile:. The easiest thing (since I am actually supposed to be doing schoolwork with my daughter, though theological discussions are much more fun than long division:D) is to send you to my husband's blog, in particular his posts on: http://executivepagan.wordpress.com/2007/03/09/why-polytheism/ , http://executivepagan.wordpress.com/2007/03/13/why-hellenism/ and http://executivepagan.wordpress.com/2007/03/26/why-druidry/. Much of this journey has been together and similar. This one is also interesting http://executivepagan.wordpress.com/2008/09/02/becoming-pagan-in-america-an-otherworld-journey/ (well, I think it's pretty much *all* interesting, but then I'm married to him;)). Our paths are a bit different in some ways. I came from an extremely Calvinist background, totally immersed in the Church (attending worship 2-3 x a week, plus an hour of devotionals every day from the time I was preschool/kindergarten-aged), but was never what one would call an "orthodox" Christian. As early as age 10 I can remember making offerings to the "spirits of the place" though I didn't know what to call them, despite having absolutely no idea that anyone else ever did such a thing (I specifically remember putting flowers and other small gifts in the walls of the basement that was being finished asking for protection for the house and family). I had a pretty dramatic break with the very fundamentalist Christianity of my youth when I got out of college, but went on to become very involved with liberal Episcopal Christianity for many years, hoping to find a way to be Christian there. Ultimately it did not work. While I adored the liturgy and ritual (still do), I could no longer fool myself that I actually believed the words I was saying each week, hard as I tried. As you will see if you visit my husband's blog, an attempt to remain monotheist through Reform Judaism also didn't work. Monotheism simply does not mesh with my experience of spiritual reality. The Hellenic Gods are the ones who have, for some reason, chosen to be involved with me, and for that I am grateful. There's a concept in at least parts of Judaism that converts are "Jewish souls who ended up in Gentile bodies" and they are just coming home when they convert. That's been my experience with Hellenism. After 30+ years of searching, I became finally at peace within myself without feeling as if I was constantly trying to shove a square peg into a round hole. It's not been an easy path, as the Gods know it is not exactly a popular one, either in my communities or my extended family, but it is the only way that I can *be* with integrity. I really like the stories of the Hellenic Gods, I remember them as being my favorite reading in my youth (which was NOT that long ago no matter what my Driver' license says, can't I get a fake one or something to change the date????) anyway I digress into my age phobia BUT reading this, I can't help but think of the verse in the Bible that says: " For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse," Romans 1:20 NKJV Saying that God is seen and understood in the things that are made, created. It is evident in creation that God exists. Creation is so intricate and ordered that is is impossible for it to have happened by chance. The next verse is very telling also and warns of what happens when credit is given to anyone but God for creation. But I don't want to start a debate, because my life is crazy trying to get 3 seniors into college and filling out applications and scholarships. I wish I could stay on this board for hours but alas, the deadline of 4pm approaches...... Edited October 30, 2008 by sunshine Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asta Posted October 30, 2008 Share Posted October 30, 2008 I'm not sure what you're saying here... the extended passage that I posted contains Jesus claiming many things, not just "speaking in the first person"-- in the passage he claims to have come from heaven, he cames to be able to give eternal life, he says that eternal life comes from believing in Him-- if someone walked up to you on the street and started claiming these things, would you think, "Wow, what a moral man!" No, you would think he was crazy, because he was claiming to be God. Erica I once watched a day laborer come into a restaurant and attempt to buy lunch with what little money he had (it wasn't enough). The restaurant owner tried to shoo him out, though he was clean, dressed properly, and extremely polite. Before I could get to the counter to pay for his lunch, another man who was already there motioned to him to choose whatever he wanted, and paid his bill. The man went outside with his bag of food, and sat down on the grass. One by one, a small crowd of men sat down around him. In all, there must have been ten or eleven of them. When everyone was settled, the man reached into a bag of corn chips, took one, and passed the rest of the bag around. Everyone took one. Then they all sat there a minute. Then the man opened the lunch bag, which contained a burrito. He opened it up, and everyone sitting there dipped their chips into it. Sitting inside the restaurant watching this scene unfold, I couldn't help but be struck by what I was seeing. I got up from my seat, walked over to the woman who had turned the man away, and motioned her to the window (she didn't speak English). When she looked out the window, she let out a small gasp, made the sign of the cross, and hurried to the back room. Christ is a title, not a man, not a time, not a place. God is in the details. If a person is so caught up in following a person or a book, they'll miss Mass on the grass outside of Home Depot. (e.g. Never assume.) asta Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spy Car Posted October 30, 2008 Share Posted October 30, 2008 I once watched a day laborer come into a restaurant and attempt to buy lunch with what little money he had (it wasn't enough). The restaurant owner tried to shoo him out, though he was clean, dressed properly, and extremely polite. Before I could get to the counter to pay for his lunch, another man who was already there motioned to him to choose whatever he wanted, and paid his bill. The man went outside with his bag of food, and sat down on the grass. One by one, a small crowd of men sat down around him. In all, there must have been ten or eleven of them. When everyone was settled, the man reached into a bag of corn chips, took one, and passed the rest of the bag around. Everyone took one. Then they all sat there a minute. Then the man opened the lunch bag, which contained a burrito. He opened it up, and everyone sitting there dipped their chips into it. Sitting inside the restaurant watching this scene unfold, I couldn't help but be struck by what I was seeing. I got up from my seat, walked over to the woman who had turned the man away, and motioned her to the window (she didn't speak English). When she looked out the window, she let out a small gasp, made the sign of the cross, and hurried to the back room. Christ is a title, not a man, not a time, not a place. God is in the details. If a person is so caught up in following a person or a book, they'll miss Mass on the grass outside of Home Depot. (e.g. Never assume.) asta Beautiful story Astra :001_smile: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unsinkable Posted October 30, 2008 Share Posted October 30, 2008 Beautiful story Astra :001_smile: I agree. It is a beautiful story. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erica in PA Posted October 30, 2008 Share Posted October 30, 2008 It is a nice story about kindness, but how do you think this relates to our conversation here... did the man then do what Jesus did after they ate? Did he rebuke the people for wanting to see more miracles (which assumes that He did claim to have done one)? Did he direct them to believe in Him? Did he tell them that He could give them eternal life? If not, then though this is a nice story about sharing, this man did not do what Jesus did according to the Biblical account.. 25 When they found him on the other side of the sea, they said to him, “Rabbi, when did you come here?” 26 Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, you are seeking me, not because you saw signs, but because you ate your fill of the loaves. 27 Do not labor for the food that perishes, but for the food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you. For on him God the Father has set his seal.” 28 Then they said to him, “What must we do, to be doing the works of God?” 29 Jesus answered them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.” 30 So they said to him, “Then what sign do you do, that we may see and believe you? What work do you perform? 31 Our fathers ate the manna in the wilderness; as it is written, ‘He gave them bread from heaven to eat.’” 32 Jesus then said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, it was not Moses who gave you the bread from heaven, but my Father gives you the true bread from heaven. 33 For the bread of God is he who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.” 34 They said to him, “Sir, give us this bread always.” 35 Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst. 36 But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe. 37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. 40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.” 41 So the Jews grumbled about him, because he said, “I am the bread that came down from heaven.” 42 They said, “Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How does he now say, ‘I have come down from heaven’?” 43 Jesus answered them, “Do not grumble among yourselves. 44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day." I can well understand if someone *rejects* what Jesus said about Himself... that is what many people did in his time as well, even in this very passage. But what does bother me is when people refuse to even acknowledge that the Bible even quotes Him as saying these things. I think it's much more honest to acknowledge that may be what the Bible says, but you choose not to believe it. Erica Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarenNC Posted October 30, 2008 Share Posted October 30, 2008 I really like the stories of the Hellenic Gods, I remember them as being my favorite reading in my youth (which was NOT that long ago no matter what my Driver' license says, can't I get a fake one or something to change the date????) anyway I digress into my age phobia BUT reading this, I can't help but think of the verse in the Bible that says:" For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse," Romans 1:20 NKJV Saying that God is seen and understood in the things that are made, created. It is evident in creation that God exists. Creation is so intricate and ordered that is is impossible for it to have happened by chance. The next verse is very telling also and warns of what happens when credit is given to anyone but God for creation. But I don't want to start a debate, because my life is crazy trying to get 3 seniors into college and filling out applications and scholarships. I wish I could stay on this board for hours but alas, the deadline of 4pm approaches...... Thanks. I also like many of the stories of the Jewish and Christian Scriptures (as well as Buddhist, Shinto, etc). They make for interesting reading and one can find examples of valuable lessons in many of them. I would rather say that in my experience it is evident to me in everything that something other than humanity and beyond humanity exists. That evidence and my personal experiences, however, do not point me toward a singular entity as described by monotheistic religions. Rest assured that my position is not lightly taken or because of lack of familiarity with the teachings of Christianity or its Scripture or other writings. As I said, I spent 30+ years attempting to make that evidence and those experiences fit into the mold of monotheism. This has included reading the Christian Bible (including the Apocrypha) in its entirety several times (in various versions including KJV, NIV, etc), completing 3 years of lay ministry education in the Episcopal church, studying for a year for possible conversion to Judaism and much more. Believe me, my life would be *much* simpler if I could have found any way to reconcile my experiences with Christianity ;). Once our daughter was born we even considered trying to go back to a very liberal American Baptist church in order that she would fit in better with her extended family and community, but we could not do so in good conscience or with honor. If there is a single ground of being from which both humanity and the Gods sprang, it is as far removed from any relation to my personal experience as the Horsehead Nebula is to the ant in my front yard. Note that I do not dispute that the God of the Jews or the Christians or the Muslims may exist, I just dispute that He (or They, I am not convinced that they are all indeed the same entity) is the only one. As to whether this world could have happened by chance, yes, just as any other could have. Now as to the verse about the consequences of giving credit to any but the Christian God for it, well, I would first have to start from a position that the Christian Bible is a valid source of spiritual authority, which I don't, so it really isn't any more binding to me than you consider the warnings in the Classical writers about what happens when one fails to properly honor the Gods binding to you. Not a debate, just a different worldview. Good luck with getting all the forms filled out, etc and I hope the scholarships come through.:001_smile: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jenny in Atl Posted October 30, 2008 Share Posted October 30, 2008 Beautiful story Astra :001_smile: Made me cry...:grouphug: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erica in PA Posted October 30, 2008 Share Posted October 30, 2008 LOL, well, did you notice that He also told Peter that he was was correct in saying that He was the Christ, the son of God, and that God in heaven was the one who had made this clear to Peter?? How about that he said he would be building a church on the foundation that Peter had made, one that Hell can't overcome? Or that He claims to have access to the keys of heaven? Or in the other passage, that Jesus claims not only again that He is the Christ, the Son of God, but also that he will be sitting at the right hand of God, coming on the clouds of heaven? Do those sound like the claims of an ordinary man to anyone? Again, I suggest that if a man on the street claimed these things to you, you would think him insane. And yet you continue to read these Bible verses, and claim that Jesus claimed to be nothing more than an ordinary man, *according to these very passages.* :confused: Erica Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Storm Bay Posted October 30, 2008 Share Posted October 30, 2008 At the risk of splitting hairs and starting a fight... again, Jesus didn't say he was God: someone else said he was. All he did was agree with their assumption on the way to his execution. asta Actually, not only did Jesus not say he was God, the person on his way to the execution didn't say that, either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lovedtodeath Posted October 30, 2008 Share Posted October 30, 2008 Of course the other gods are real. When Moses threw down his stick and it turned into a snake, the Egyptians were able to do the same thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Storm Bay Posted October 30, 2008 Share Posted October 30, 2008 And you wonder why people are confused on the issue of polytheism? :iagree: I've read all the arguments and gone to the scripture (not just the ones with additions not in all the texts) and it does not once say "Jesus is God." You, Bill, are the son of your father, but I'll bet you're not actually your father! The doctrine of the trinity far predates the time of Christ (so could hardly be a Mystery not before known). Its roots can be found in the Babylonian religion as well as in many others which appear to have spread from Babylon to many areas. But Constantine & his cohorts wanted to unite everyone under a common religion, and adding the trinity helped them a great deal. A good reference on the bloody battles waged to get this doctrine incorporated is called When Jesus Became God. It's a history that has been much supressed. A good read that has been used at Princeton to present an alternative view (and quite readable) is called One God, One Lord By Schoenheit, et al. fwiw, Schoenheit not only grew up as an atheist, he majored in philosophy and there's a great appendix summing up various forms of logic at the back of the book. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Storm Bay Posted October 30, 2008 Share Posted October 30, 2008 Well, I personally do not believe the Trinity Doctrine is Biblical, or is anything that Jesus actually taught or believed. . :iagree: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Storm Bay Posted October 30, 2008 Share Posted October 30, 2008 (edited) I agree. And not to throw another fly into the ointment, but how does this affect the common question about what happens to babies who die? Does their sin nature but lack of sinful *action* and ability to choose (if one believes that's the application here) save them from or send them to hell? I'm very curious how those who view their babies as actively sinning people tackle that question. Maybe their conclusion is same as those who feel that babies and very young children cannot be held to account for their lack of understanding, though? I do NOT view babies as actively sinning people, and it angers me when I hear people do that. I agree that you have to know right & wrong. But I do strongly believe that babies are born with a sin nature and that sooner or later everyone of us "sins," ie does things wrong and that this is why we need a saviour. One of the jobs of a parent is to teach children right from wrong (not with abuse, of course) because they aren't born knowing it. But there is a time in that first year when most babies start to test their parents, and they certainly don't need to be punished. If you have no original sin or sin nature, then you don't need a saviour, right? This is why not all religions have saviours, because they don't believe that that happened. But where many people go off in these extremes of trying to beat evil out of kids (you just can't do that, and having a sin nature doesn't mean you're depraved & evil--beating tends to cause more troubles!!!!) is that the Bible also teaches that it's the goodnes (also can be translated gentleness) of God that leads men to repentence. Not brute force. Not coersion. Not brainwashing. Edited October 30, 2008 by Karin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jugglin'5 Posted October 30, 2008 Share Posted October 30, 2008 All I can say is, "Bravo, Erica in PA!". That is the central argument. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lovedtodeath Posted October 30, 2008 Share Posted October 30, 2008 Yes, Erica is indeed correct and stated it wonderfully. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asta Posted October 30, 2008 Share Posted October 30, 2008 Actually, not only did Jesus not say he was God, the person on his way to the execution didn't say that, either. Yeah, I realized that about the passage when I reread what I had posted. Eh. asta (this is one of those "it all comes down to what a person has decided is truth" arguments) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beansprouts Posted October 30, 2008 Share Posted October 30, 2008 Is anyone else finding Asta's avatar extremely imtimidating??? :D (Back to your regular thread now...) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asta Posted October 30, 2008 Share Posted October 30, 2008 (edited) It's "Big Brother", the central character from George Orwell's classic novel 1984. It is a standard High School text for (modern) classical education. asta P.S. Is anyone else finding Asta's avatar extremely imtimidating??? It's quite amusing that you would write this (a passive-aggressive backhanded... hell, I don't know), as the point of Orwell's book is the danger of "group think"; and yet you write this on a thread that is centered about organized religion. That is extremely ironic. Edited October 30, 2008 by asta clarification Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beansprouts Posted October 30, 2008 Share Posted October 30, 2008 It's quite amusing that you would write this (a passive-aggressive backhanded... hell, I don't know), as the point of Orwell's book is the danger of "group think"; and yet you write this on a thread that is centered about organized religion. That is extremely ironic. You have me wrong. I am no coward. If I wanted to be aggressive, you would know it. ;) I actually didn't recognize the character, and meant to ask you who it was. I do remember the story. I truly meant my comment to be humorous, and was trying to insert a light moment into the thread. Let's stop second guessing each other and try to give the benefit of the doubt ok? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asta Posted October 30, 2008 Share Posted October 30, 2008 Ok. Sorry for the misunderstanding. asta Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lovedtodeath Posted October 30, 2008 Share Posted October 30, 2008 (edited) I think it is time for this thread to end. We seem determined to be disagreeable. Let's not give Susan any more grief. Edited October 30, 2008 by Lovedtodeath Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beansprouts Posted October 30, 2008 Share Posted October 30, 2008 I think it is time for this thread to end. We seem determined to disagree. Let's not give Susan any more grief. I don't believe we ever determined to agree from the start ;) But whatever happens, I want to say that I have enjoyed this conversation and truly appreciate seeing others' perspectives. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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