Children are sinful

[caitlinsmom]

A comment was shared with me (from another board in a religion forum) where a mom had said something to the effect of Children are sinful from birth. I had never heard this before and I am curious where this comes from scriptureally(sp??), what religion belives this and why. Can anyone shed some light?

[Heather in Neverland]

Well, technically we are all born with original sin according to the bible. So perhaps that is what she meant.

[Unicorn.]

I know that the tradition of baptizing at birth comes from the belief of " original sin", and it used to be if a child wasn't baptized, and he died, he couldn't be buried in sacred ground (church cemetery). I don't think that is in practice anymore, even for those that still believe in "original sin". I'm sure someone else will explain this much better and w/ more background very shortly.

[VaKim]

Biblical Christianity teaches this. The Bible says all are born sinners.

[OnTheBrink]

We're all born with a sin nature, stemming from the original sin of disobeying God.

[lovemyboys]

Well, technically we are all born with original sin according to the bible. So perhaps that is what she meant.

 

That's how I've heard it explained -- that since Adam and Eve "fell," sin is with all of mankind from the tiniest baby to the oldest person.

 

But it sounds so rough when people say it and you picture a sweet, sleeping baby.

[VaKim]

That's how I've heard it explained -- that since Adam and Eve "fell," sin is with all of mankind from the tiniest baby to the oldest person.

 

But it sounds so rough when people say it and you picture a sweet, sleeping baby.

 

Until they wake up and start screaming incessantly when there is nothing wrong. :D

[caitlinsmom]

hmm okay thanks for the explanations. I guess I had never thought of it like that before.'

[Pam "SFSOM" in TN]

Until they wake up and start screaming incessantly when there is nothing wrong. :D

 

Do you think that is sinful, or evidence of a sin nature?

[VaKim]

Do you think that is sinful, or evidence of a sin nature?

 

Sure do. As I said, "when there is nothing wrong." Children are born selfish, which is sin according to the Bible. The Bible says it so I do not question it. And never will.

[KarenNC]

A comment was shared with me (from another board in a religion forum) where a mom had said something to the effect of Children are sinful from birth. I had never heard this before and I am curious where this comes from scriptureally(sp??), what religion belives this and why. Can anyone shed some light?

 

Well, most of Christianity (that I know of, at least) subscribes to the teaching of original sin, that because of Adam's fall we are all in a state of sin from birth, hence the need for salvation. Now, groups differ in how they believe that manifests, or what that means.

 

Calvinism is probably the one that takes the strongest stance. The main points are known by the acronym TULIP, of which the T is total depravity. I know that Presbyterians came out of Calvin and I think he is the basis for most Reformed groups.

 

http://www.calvinistcorner.com/tulip.htm

Total Depravity:

Sin has affected all parts of man. The heart, emotions, will, mind, and body are all affected by sin. We are completely sinful. We are not as sinful as we could be, but we are completely affected by sin.

The doctrine of Total Depravity is derived from scriptures that reveal human character: Man’s heart is evil (Mark 7:21-23) and sick (Jer. 17:9). Man is a slave of sin (Rom. 6:20). He does not seek for God (Rom. 3:10-12). He cannot understand spiritual things (1 Cor. 2:14). He is at enmity with God (Eph. 2:15). And, is by nature a child of wrath (Eph. 2:3). The Calvinist asks the question, "In light of the scriptures that declare man’s true nature as being utterly lost and incapable, how is it possible for anyone to choose or desire God?" The answer is, "He cannot. Therefore God must predestine."

Calvinism also maintains that because of our fallen nature we are born again not by our own will but God’s will (John 1:12-13); God grants that we believe (Phil. 1:29); faith is the work of God (John 6:28-29); God appoints people to believe (Acts 13:48); and God predestines (Eph. 1:1-11; Rom. 8:29; 9:9-23).

 

Here's a link that compares theological points among a number of denominations, in case that is helpful.

http://christianity.about.com/od/denominationscomparison/ss/comparebeliefs2.htm

[Ria]

Do you think that is sinful, or evidence of a sin nature?

 

Neither, IMO. It's a baby thing. They cry. It's how they communicate their needs.

 

Ria

[dangermom]

Not all Christians believe in original sin or that infants have a sinful nature.

[caitlinsmom]

Karen thank you for the links. I am going to check this out.

[beansprouts]

Until they wake up and start screaming incessantly when there is nothing wrong. :D

 

How do you know there is nothing wrong ;)

 

We are all born with a sin nature, but I do tend to cringe when I hear it applied in this way to children. My problem is we tend to adopt an adversarial "us vs. them" mentality to parenting when every behavior is assumed to have a negative "sinful" intent. I do see my children's sinful nature, but I also see in them a desire to do what is right. They struggle just like I do with the desires of their flesh, and sometimes they lose the struggle. My job is not to battle against them, but to come along beside them, as a fellow sinner who understands their struggle, and encourage them to make the right choices.

[caitlinsmom]

Not all Christians believe in original sin or that infants have a sinful nature.

 

This is where I sit. I find the idea of this interesting as it is not something I ever even considered.

[Pam "SFSOM" in TN]

Sure do. As I said, "when there is nothing wrong." Children are born selfish, which is sin according to the Bible. The Bible says it so I do not question it. And never will.

 

Do you punish for this, or just ignore it, or what? I was taught this when my big children were small, and I know a number of my friends who isolated or spanked for the crying when it was for no reason that they could determine.

[beansprouts]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pam "SFSOM" in TN

Do you think that is sinful, or evidence of a sin nature?

 

Neither, IMO. It's a baby thing. They cry. It's how they communicate their needs.

 

Ria

 

 

What she said. Babies don't have the capacity for logic necessary to be manipulative. Too many parents make the mistake of assigning adult "sinful" thought processes to young children. Little ones think very simply. Their minds don't work the way ours do.

[VaKim]

Goodness gracious people!! NO I did not punish my babies for crying! YES, I come alongside them as a fellow sinner, showing them the way. I was just using that as an example of how the sinful nature is displayed even in babies!! Now stop jumping to ridiculous conclusions based on one sentence! Besides which this thread is not about parenting.

 

If you don't agree, fine. I don't care. But I believe it because the Bible says it, and will not question it or change. Even if there was no evidence.

[Soph the vet]

The Bible says we are "wayward from the womb". As soon as my children were old enough to say "no" to defy me they did. That was not taught, it was their nature. Why is disobedience so easy for kids and obedience so challenging? Why does it seem so hard to do the right thing instead of the wrong?

[tadbhoward]

How do you know there is nothing wrong ;)

 

We are all born with a sin nature, but I do tend to cringe when I hear it applied in this way to children. My problem is we tend to adopt an adversarial "us vs. them" mentality to parenting when every behavior is assumed to have a negative "sinful" intent. I do see my children's sinful nature, but I also see in them a desire to do what is right. They struggle just like I do with the desires of their flesh, and sometimes they lose the struggle. My job is not to battle against them, but to come along beside them, as a fellow sinner who understands their struggle, and encourage them to make the right choices.

 

That is beautifully put. :)

[beansprouts]

Goodness gracious people!! NO I did not punish my babies for crying! YES, I come alongside them as a fellow sinner, showing them the way. I was just using that as an example of how the sinful nature is displayed even in babies!! Now stop jumping to ridiculous conclusions based on one sentence! Besides which this thread is not about parenting.

 

If you don't agree, fine. I don't care. But I believe it because the Bible says it, and will not question it or change. Even if there was no evidence.

 

 

It's no problem Kim. Unfortunately, I have known parents who do think that way, and I was afraid that might be what you were saying. Thank you for clarifying.

[beansprouts]

Is the thread about parenting? It is usually in this context that I hear the question of a child's sinful nature asked. I am sorry if I jumped to conclusions. :blush:

[Pam "SFSOM" in TN]

Goodness gracious people!! NO I did not punish my babies for crying! YES, I come alongside them as a fellow sinner, showing them the way. I was just using that as an example of how the sinful nature is displayed even in babies!! Now stop jumping to ridiculous conclusions based on one sentence! Besides which this thread is not about parenting.

 

If you don't agree, fine. I don't care. But I believe it because the Bible says it, and will not question it or change. Even if there was no evidence.

 

Well, golly, I just wondered how you handled it. I have more than a few friends who punish very early because of sin nature as evidence by crying. I simply wondered if you felt that way, too.

 

It was not considered a ridiculous conclusion in every single church I went to before 2001. Some didn't agree with the conclusion, of course, but that's not to say that all people consider that a ridiculous question to ask.

[asta]

Not all Christians believe in original sin or that infants have a sinful nature.

 

Catholics believe in original sin, but do not believe that infants have a sinful nature. eg: a baby for a baby that dies at birth (prior to being baptised) "the Catechism teaches that infants who die without baptism are entrusted by the Church to the mercy of God, as is shown in the specific funeral rite for such children" because a baby is not thought capable of sin.

 

Hope of Salvation for Infants Who Die Without Being Baptised; The Holy See

 

 

asta

[Scarlett]

The Bible says we are "wayward from the womb". As soon as my children were old enough to say "no" to defy me they did. That was not taught, it was their nature. Why is disobedience so easy for kids and obedience so challenging? Why does it seem so hard to do the right thing instead of the wrong?

 

Exactly. Whenever I express shock at something wrong my ds has done, my mom will say, 'why are you so surprised that an imperfect human has behaved imperfectly. Your job is to teach him to obey.

 

 

And yes, I do believe that is a Biblical teaching. We are in an imperfect state, thus sinful from birth.

 

I don't believe crying is a manifestation of sin though....I think as Ria said it is a baby thing. :)

[VaKim]

I did not punish until mine were old enough to purposely defy me, which is different with each child.

[Heather in Neverland]

When ds was 3yo (and in the middle of potty-training) we were at church and he had an accident. Well, actually it didn't seem like an accident...he stood in the bathroom right next to the toilet and peed his pants. Potty-training had not been going well and I was feeling pretty discouraged.

 

Another woman at church asked me what was wrong and I said "I just don't get it. He was doing so well and now this!"

 

She responded "That's because he is a sinner."

 

??????

 

OK, I get that we are all born sinners but comments like that and comments about how babies cry for no reason because they are sinners are unloving and not very helpful. Rant over.

[Erica in PA]

 

I don't believe crying is a manifestation of sin though....I think as Ria said it is a baby thing. :)

 

I think crying *can* be a manifestation of sin. I have definitely witnessed very *angry* crying babies, arching their backs, kicking, and throwing a fit when they don't have what they want, like a toy... that's pretty much our sin nature on full display, but as adults we are just able to hide it better. It's that same kind of anger that later makes a baby hit, or pull hair, or kick, etc., even when he/she has never, ever experienced that or witnessed that before. Unfortunately that is in us from the beginning, according to the Bible, and I have seen much in practical experience among my own children and others to support that as well.

 

I do not agree with punishing babies, in any way, because though they are sinners, and acting that out in various ways, they don't have the capacity to understand what they are doing, or control themselves.

 

Erica

[Murphy101]

OK, I get that we are all born sinners but comments like that and comments about how babies cry for no reason because they are sinners are unloving and not very helpful. Rant over.

 

I agree.

 

I often think that people who say things like that are using it as justification for their behavior, not the infant/toddlers.:glare:

[Erica in PA]

When do you believe a person sins for the first time?

[VaKim]

People have different beliefs, and always will.

Edited October 28, 2008 by WTM Moderator

[beansprouts]

I do not agree with punishing babies, in any way, because though they are sinners, and acting that out in various ways, they don't have the capacity to understand what they are doing, or control themselves.

 

 

My 4 1/2 year old ds was a particularly difficult baby. There was a lot that he just didn't get, even at 2 and 3 years old. I would punish him, and he would truly have no clue what he did wrong. If asked, he would repeat whatever I had said (i.e. "I didn't obey") but without real comprehension. The only thing he knew was that Mommy was mad, and he really didn't understand why :sad: So, while there probably was "sin nature" coming into play, he was nowhere near ready to be held accountable for his actions.

[VaKim]

I think crying *can* be a manifestation of sin. I have definitely witnessed very *angry* crying babies, arching their backs, kicking, and throwing a fit when they don't have what they want, like a toy... that's pretty much our sin nature on full display, but as adults we are just able to hide it better. It's that same kind of anger that later makes a baby hit, or pull hair, or kick, etc., even when he/she has never, ever experienced that or witnessed that before. Unfortunately that is in us from the beginning, according to the Bible, and I have seen much in practical experience among my own children and others to support that as well.

 

I do not agree with punishing babies, in any way, because though they are sinners, and acting that out in various ways, they don't have the capacity to understand what they are doing, or control themselves.

 

Erica

 

:iagree: Exactly!! On all counts!

[VaKim]

I just have to say this. Just because somebody believes in the Biblical teaching of original sin, and that babies display it from birth (my 2nd one did from the day she was born!), does NOT in any way mean they believe in punishing those children before they have understanding! NOR does it mean we believe babies who die go to hell. I know some do believe that, and some do go to extremes and abuse their children. But please do not assume that we all do. It is very upsetting. I love my girls more than anything on this earth.

[LN in WI]

A bit more on original sin from a Catholic perspective:

 

Original sin is seen as more of a lack of grace (God's life in your soul). When Adam & Eve sinned, that was what was lost; hence they were unable to "pass" that gift onto their children. Thus, original sin is not anything for which an infant is guilty.

 

However, we also have a fallen nature because we lack God's grace. This makes it more difficult to choose the good. Thus, children must be helped to grow in virtues, etc. (This would contradict Rousseau's idea of childhood.)

 

HTH helps to clarify.

 

:001_smile:

Ellen

[beansprouts]

I just have to say this. Just because somebody believes in the Biblical teaching of original sin, and that babies display it from birth (my 2nd one did from the day she was born!), does NOT in any way mean they believe in punishing those children before they have understanding! NOR does it mean we believe babies who die go to hell. I know some do believe that, and some do go to extremes and abuse their children. But please do not assume that we all do. It is very upsetting. I love my girls more than anything on this earth.

 

Kim, theologically we are in complete agreement. I simply worry about how the philosophy plays out sometimes in a parenting context. I see how it is used among my IRL friends and it disturbs me a great deal.

 

But, as far as I am concerned you have clarified your position, and need not defend yourself any further. I am not referring to you at all anymore, and I am sorry if it appears that way. I respect you a great deal and do not mean to offend you.

 

You are a GOOD Mama, and we know it.

Edited October 27, 2008 by beansprouts

[OnTheBrink]

I agree.

 

I often think that people who say things like that are using it as justification for their behavior, not the infant/toddlers.:glare:

 

What behavior are they trying to justify?

[VaKim]

Kim, theologically we are in complete agreement. I simply worry about how the philosophy plays out sometimes in a parenting context. I see how it is used among my IRL friends and it disturbs me a great deal.

 

But, as far as I am concerned you have clarified your position, and need not defend yourself any further. I am not referring to you at all anymore, and I am sorry if it appears that way. I respect you a great deal and do not mean to offend you.

 

You are a GOOD Mama, and we know it.

 

Thank you Cindy. You are sweet. I just did not even think anything about such things (hitting babies and such) when I made my first post in this thread, and sure did want it to be clear that I wasn't advocating such things in any way, shape or form.

[Philothea]

I know that the tradition of baptizing at birth comes from the belief of " original sin", and it used to be if a child wasn't baptized, and he died, he couldn't be buried in sacred ground (church cemetery). I don't think that is in practice anymore, even for those that still believe in "original sin". I'm sure someone else will explain this much better and w/ more background very shortly.

 

We do this. We believe in Limbo too, which would be where an unbaptized child, not guilty of any personal sins would go. According to what we believe anyways, not really looking for a debate.

[CAMom]

I absolutely believe that children are born sinners. The Bible is clear on that.

 

Let's say, for the sake of argument, that they are not. What theological implications would that have? It would mean that, if they were to die in infancy (or before they became a sinner by deed), that they would go to heaven based on their own perfection and they would have no need for the saving work of Christ.

 

Christ said, "No man comes to the Father but by me." That includes babies. If they are not sinners until they commit their first sin, and they die before that, then they come to the Father on their own merits. Without sin, there is no need for a Savior.

 

To deny original sin is to put in serious jeopardy the work of Christ.

 

(As a side note: I did have a daughter who died in infancy. I believe with my whole heart that she is with the Father. But I do not believe that she is there because she was not a sinner. I believe that she was born a sinner (and I don't believe that she actually ever committed a sin as she was unconscious for 99.9% of her six weeks of life) and that Christ's work on the cross is what gained her entrance in to the presence of God. She died 4 years ago this coming Wednesday.)

[asta]

We do this. We believe in Limbo too, which would be where an unbaptized child, not guilty of any personal sins would go. According to what we believe anyways, not really looking for a debate.

 

I still believe in Limbo, though the Church has shied away from this concept as of late...

 

 

asta

[Cricket]

When do you believe a person sins for the first time?

 

This is what I wonder too. Also, if you don't believe in original sin then where does sin come from? Is it possible for someone to go through their entire life and never sin? Then Christ didn't actually need to die since we have it in our own power to live a sinless life.

[beansprouts]

(As a side note: I did have a daughter who died in infancy. I believe with my whole heart that she is with the Father. But I do not believe that she is there because she was not a sinner. I believe that she was born a sinner (and I don't believe that she actually ever committed a sin as she was unconscious for 99.9% of her six weeks of life) and that Christ's work on the cross is what gained her entrance in to the presence of God. She died 4 years ago this coming Wednesday.)

 

I don't know if there is any Biblical basis for my line of thinking: God knows who will come to Him, even before we know it ourselves. So, isn't is possible that we belong to Him, a God who is outside of time, long before we come to that "conversion moment"? I know as I look back I can see God working through my life even as I claimed to be an atheist. I am wondering if there is a truth here that might apply to babies and children who die...

 

This is what I wonder too. Also, if you don't believe in original sin then where does sin come from? Is it possible for someone to go through their entire life and never sin? Then Christ didn't actually need to die since we have it in our own power to live a sinless life.

 

Then Christ's prayer in Gethsemane "If there be any other way..." wasn't answered. Technically, I suppose it is possible to never, ever have as much as a single selfish thought or an inkling of pride, but no human has ever accomplished this.

Edited October 28, 2008 by beansprouts

[Joanne]

Sure do. As I said, "when there is nothing wrong." Children are born selfish, which is sin according to the Bible. The Bible says it so I do not question it. And never will.

 

:confused:

 

I'm not going to read through 5 pages of babies and children are sinful .... stuff.

 

I believe humans are born with the propensity to sin and all fall short of the glory of God.

 

However, I do not consider developmentally expected behavior (crying in infants, reaching in toddlers, doing it after hearing "no" in preschoolers) *sin*. It's childhood.

 

I believe with every fiber of my being that Jesus cried as a baby, reached as a toddler and walked off in the market place while the family shopped.

 

This, IMO, is one of the most damaging, awful, adversarial and punitive perspectives of the conservative Christian community.

[dawn of ns]

Just a note...Original sin is not an idea early Christians would have recognized. It was the development of Augustine and is biblical only in the sense that that's where he found support for his argument, not that it's a concept explicitly stated in the bible.

[mommaduck]

I have to say: I believe that we are all born into a sinful world and with our natures unnaturally bent towards sin...this is due to Adam's Fall and Original Sin. However, a babe's cries are not simply "selfish cries", but rather their only form of communication. Babes are simple being...they get hungry, their tummy hurts, their ears ache, their bottom gets wet or messy and it's uncomfortable or rashy, they get sick, they are tired, or they simply want the comfort of mom or dad holding them (mom and dad make their whole world at peace ya know ;) ). And yes, I believe Christ cried as a babe. Christ dealt with all the same discomforts and manners of communication that we dealt with. Crying in a babe is part of how they are created, not because of their sinful nature.

[Pamela H in Texas]

Original sin is not an idea early Christians would have recognized.

 

Hmmm. Romans 5:12 suggests that Paul certainly got it.

 

"just as through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men because they had all sinned"

[Greta]

We've very recently started attending a Unity Church, and I realize this isn't a mainstream Christian teaching at all, but I wanted to share with you that they teach "original blessing" rather than original sin. I just love that, on so many levels.

[Lacie]

I have a hard time expressing myself sometimes, so I copied a few things from an article written for a congregation I used to attend. Sorry it's a little long.

 

The Bible declares, "There is none righteous, no not one" (Romans 3:10). "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God" (Romans 3:23). The consequence of our sin is death (Romans 6:23). Sin occurs when we violate the commandments of God: "Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law; for sin is the transgression of the law" (1 John 3:4). God's word is our guide in all that we do as individuals and as the church. When we fail to keep the will of God, we have sinned. Therefore, one who has not reached the mental maturity to be able to understand God's will and be able to control

their actions has not sinned.

 

The Bible teaches that each person is responsible for his/her own sins. "Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee" (Ezekiel 28:15). "Perfect"-what a wonderful way to describe a newborn! Each child is born into this world pure and free from sin. Children do not inherit the sin of their parents. "The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the

righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him" (Ezekiel 18:20). "Sin is by definition, individual in nature, being either a violation of transgression of God's law (1 John 3:4), or a refusal to bring oneself into harmony with the behavior God prescribes for His people (James 4:17)" (Garner). Our spirit came from God and will return to Him (Ecclesiastes 12:7). God formed our spirit within us (Zechariah 12:1). We are His offspring (Acts 17:29).

 

Since a baby does not even know his right hand from his left (Jonah 4:11), how can he/she commit sin by not doing what he/she is incapable of doing? . . . Sin is a violation of our conscience (Romans 14:23). How can a child sin against a conscience that has yet to be developed? (B J. Clarke).

 

Each soul is responsible for his/her own sin. "Every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death" (James 1:1415). Our sins are a result of our own lust and desires, not because of the sin of Adam. There is a day coming when we will answer for our sins. We will not be able to blame our sins on Adam. Our

eternal home will be determined by how we live. "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad" (2 Corinthians 5:10).

 

Man is not born in sin. We each sin when we violate the will of God. Our sins will cost us our souls unless we believe in Christ (John 8:24), repent of our sins (Luke 13:3), make the good confession (Romans 10:9,10), are baptized into Christ for the remission of sins (Acts 2:38; Mark 16:16), and live faithfully until death (2 Timothy 4:6-8; Revelation 2:10). Jesus is the author of eternal salvation to everyone who obeys Him (Hebrews 5:9).