dual enrollment grades are in, and it isn't good

[ktgrok]

Mind you, he had all A's in the fall semester, taking ENC 1101, US Government, and Intro to Art Appreciation. This semester he took ENC 1102 and got a D, Humanities and got an F, and Intro to Art History and got an A. 

 

He said that his Humanities teacher waited until after the drop deadline then added in "a bunch of work" like "writing 800 words a week almost, and going places and taking pictures". Um, okay, so DO THAT! And he forgot about a deadline for a major paper in English, which was a big part of his grade, and then just gave up. Same kids that got an A in English the semester before! Same teacher, who he likes!

 

I'm so frustrated, and concerned, and worried. I didn't freak out. I didn't yell. But dammit! I'm also concerned about depression.although he seems happy enough he's sleeping odd hours and hanging out less with friends and such. He had two meet ups with his teen homeschool group this week and chose to sleep in rather than go. (they were at noon, not early). 

 

He may get kicked out of dual enrollment (probably will) an I have no idea what we will do if that happens. I'm repeating the phrase "don't go nuclear" over and over in my head to keep from freaking out. 

 

I'm waiting to hear back about if he is kicked out of dual enrollment, and then will go from there. He was also lying to me, of course, about how well school was going, which is a whole other issue. 

 

Anyway, wanted to post here, where people get that this isn't just a matter of being harder on him, etc. 

[OneStepAtATime]

:grouphug:  :grouphug:  :grouphug:

 

No, just being harder on him WON'T solve the issue.  I definitely understand that.  He has several learning challenges, right?  Including ADHD and Aspergers?

 

From your previous threads and the current one on the chat board it does sound to me like he got a bit overwhelmed with expectations, failed to keep up, then shut down and went into denial.  You are right, yelling doesn't fix this.  Punishment doesn't fix this.   :grouphug: 

 

I assume he really doesn't want you scaffolding him weekly, not just asking if things are going o.k.?  Is there any way he might let someone, even if it isn't you, help him out each week with checking on deadlines and creating a schedule to follow as new assignments come in?  

 

FWIW, DD is 16 and she still needs some scaffolding for her on-line classes.  Our stuff we work on at home works better but with the on-line classes, much as I have loved her teachers, some of them are often disorganized, toss stuff in at the last minute, fail to clearly convey what they are expecting, etc.  I have been through college twice and I was struggling at times to figure out what was due when and what was expected in DD's classes.  A couple of times I realized the teacher had made a mistake.  DD was lost.   Thankfully she was willing to let me help her.  With me modeling for her and working alongside her for a few semesters she has gotten better and better at staying organized and getting assignments done on time and if she is uncertain about something a teacher has said/assigned then asking questions is better than just sticking her head in the sand and hoping for the best.

[kbutton]

I'm so sorry! The ASD avoid, deny, crash, burn cycles are not fun! 

 

Is this DE on a high school campus or on a college campus/online? I am wondering if he would be entitled to or accept help from disability services on campus. 

 

Does he have trouble generalizing skills for planning and executing assignments across all of his subjects? That would be something my son would struggle with--knowing how to break down, start, and stay on track with different kinds of assignments as they come up (but my son is quite a bit younger). 

[Storygirl]

My kids are younger, so we haven't tried any college classes yet, but I wanted to offer some :grouphug: :grouphug: :grouphug: .

[Lecka]

Aw, man. How frustrating :(

[ktgrok]

I'm so sorry! The ASD avoid, deny, crash, burn cycles are not fun! 

 

Is this DE on a high school campus or on a college campus/online? I am wondering if he would be entitled to or accept help from disability services on campus. 

 

Does he have trouble generalizing skills for planning and executing assignments across all of his subjects? That would be something my son would struggle with--knowing how to break down, start, and stay on track with different kinds of assignments as they come up (but my son is quite a bit younger). 

 

Yes, it's on a college campus. I am gong to investigate the disability services angle, that's a good idea. 

 

He also has working memory problems, and issues with I want to say the coding section, when he did all his educational testing. ADHD, Aspergers, and oh, he's gifted too. 

 

I think the gifted thing is half the problem...or more. He got VERY used to being able to skate by, with minimal effort and then just gave up when that didn't work anymore. He basically told me the F in Humanities was because they assigned a lot of work. Well, kiddo, that's college. It's work. Same with his online latin class (not dual enrollment). When it got into the weeds and he had to actually study and do work versus being able to just memorize it at first glance he gave up. 

 

I'm wondering, is there such a thing as a life coach for a teen? Someone to sit with him and teach him better study habits, etc? Someone who isn't me, because everything I say is obviously wrong.  :closedeyes:

 

Or maybe a website? He has the ASD love of research, so he might be willing to read up on this on his own. Or even a book? Although a website would be better.

[Heathermomster]

My DS works with a CBT to help with executive function skills. For study skills, DS types, uses an Echo Smart Pen, and studies with Quizlet. The CBT teaches planning as well while I provide supports.

[kbutton]

Yes, it's on a college campus. I am gong to investigate the disability services angle, that's a good idea. 

 

He also has working memory problems, and issues with I want to say the coding section, when he did all his educational testing. ADHD, Aspergers, and oh, he's gifted too. 2e here too. Working memory is variable--from really amazing (verbal) to amazingly bad (stressed, new information). Just had updated testing, so we'll see how coding went. He's usually hitting highs and lows on various subtests, lol! But, he really needs a scribe for just about everything. He literally does 2x the math if I scribe it for him. I think the Livescribe Pen (Echo Smartpen) that Heathermomster mentions would be good for class notes for your son if he is willing to try it--I think coding is relatively predictive of efficient handwriting whether or not there is a true dysgraphia or written expression problem or not. Getting those thoughts into words and on paper (or computer) is not always a smooth process. We are hoping to learn how to use the smart pen soon, but note-taking has to be better in general (it's not an easy concept for him). Right now, my son types a lot of things, but he previously couldn't handle that due to fiddling with the computer (fonts, the internet, you name it!). 

 

I think the gifted thing is half the problem...or more. He got VERY used to being able to skate by, with minimal effort and then just gave up when that didn't work anymore. He basically told me the F in Humanities was because they assigned a lot of work. Well, kiddo, that's college. It's work. Same with his online latin class (not dual enrollment). When it got into the weeds and he had to actually study and do work versus being able to just memorize it at first glance he gave up. I think this is common--difficulty and volume are both "new" things that cause avoidance, denial, etc. My son doesn't do well with volume of work in particular. We have had some luck with difficulty, but he has some behaviors with new work when it's difficult--he gets snippy. But I've always been able to work through things with him eventually. It's never fun!

 

I'm wondering, is there such a thing as a life coach for a teen? Someone to sit with him and teach him better study habits, etc? Someone who isn't me, because everything I say is obviously wrong.  :closedeyes: Our behaviorist is working with my son on some academics. She used to work in a school setting (either private or an autism magnet school) where the ABA people actually designed the IEP implementation for academics so that they could work on behavior simultaneously. She has a lot of experience breaking tasks down, scaffolding them, helping a student self-monitor with new tasks (the snipping, meltdowns, walking away, avoiding, whatever it is), and then teaching the EF skills as well. Gifted kids sometimes need the ABA to take some intellectual needs into account as well, but ABA can help with a 2e kid if you get a flexible and creative BCBA. CBT can help too, but it's just different. I did see a self-help depression/anxiety book by Tony Attwood that is CBT-based and looks great, but my son could not translate a CBT style approach to something concrete like due dates and breaking a project down. It's not just a "change your thinking patterns" thing for him, and then the ABA picks up on the difficulties with self-monitoring around new or difficult tasks.

 

Or maybe a website? He has the ASD love of research, so he might be willing to read up on this on his own. Or even a book? Although a website would be better. Will try to post some things I've seen. I have not necessarily tried them all, and my son is younger, but they are on my radar if I can use them later.

 

[kbutton]

Heathermomster, can you give an example or two of how CBT teaches the planning? I have really not seen it used that way, and it seems very nebulous to me. I know you've found it beneficial, and I've always wondered how, lol! But I haven't wanted to sound like I am being skeptical--I just haven't connected the dots.

[kbutton]

https://www.amazon.com/Learning-Purpose-Self-management-Approach-Skills/dp/089455753X

From The Critical Thinking Company

 

I have a class bookmarked on another computer that looked promising. It's free. 

 

If you google study skills, a TON of college sites come up that have free resources for study skills. Some break things down more than others, but there are a lot of sites like that. 

 

This search leads to some links to various disability services on campuses, and it might give you an idea of what you want to ask for from disability services: https://www.google.com/search?q=study+skills+disability+services&rlz=1C1RXDB_enUS601US601&oq=study+skills+disability+services&aqs=chrome..69i57.5052j0j4&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

 

One site actually listed Livescribe Pen tutorials as a service. Some schools offer note-taking services. 

 

[katilac]

I'm also concerned about depression.although he seems happy enough he's sleeping odd hours and hanging out less with friends and such. He had two meet ups with his teen homeschool group this week and chose to sleep in rather than go. (they were at noon, not early). 

 

 

 

To address just this one small part, I usually just don't allow this. Often, the less you do, the less you want to do. My rule is, you have to leave the house, and you have to talk to actual human beings in person, lol. You can choose or I can choose, but you're leaving the house. 

 

My kids are NT, with tendency toward anxiety, and lots of anxiety and depression in family tree. 

[kbutton]

Often, the less you do, the less you want to do. 

 

This works in so many ways with kiddos who have ASD--our psych likes to reference it in regard to breaking habits too, like keeping things "out of sight, out of mind" to keep their impulsive things from becoming compulsive. 

 

Honestly, it's hard to use this strategy without at least a little buy-in and/or bribery sometimes. But that is why we have a tutor and a behaviorist.  ;)

 

I feel like it's a constant balance among Do This, Don't Do That, Don't Forget You Can Do This Now That You've Decided You Like It, Remember How That Went Last Time, and on and on. Balance is not in these kids' vocabulary!!! 

[Heathermomster]

Heathermomster, can you give an example or two of how CBT teaches the planning? I have really not seen it used that way, and it seems very nebulous to me. I know you've found it beneficial, and I've always wondered how, lol! But I haven't wanted to sound like I am being skeptical--I just haven't connected the dots.

See, DS isn't on the spectrum so this may be moot for you and the OP.

 

To begin with, the student has to want improvement.  Without the student's full cooperation, things won't happen.

 

The CBT sits and speaks with us to determine the specific issues.  CBT basically broke down the steps of goal setting.  He was very specific about the steps, and I took notes and created a chart for reference.  I memorized the steps and discuss them with DS whenever planning comes up. When DS expresses a wish to get something specific done that is long term, we sit down and come up with a goal and specific tasks for completion. I ask DS questions and we try to cover all of our bases.  The goal steps are spelled out with periodic checks by me to ensure that DS is sticking to his goals.  My son is highly motivated by driving, sports, and doing things outside the home.  If he does not complete his work, he does not play football or drive or whatever he wants. 

 

For sustained focus on boring tasks, DS purposefully engages in boring tasks using the computer for 30 min 4 days per week.  He schedules and completes the boring tasks in a measurable way.  DS and I have worked together to develop a doable system that he will use.  With the computer, I can log in and see precisely what work he completed.  DS also completes mindfulness meditation breathing exercises for 5 minutes, 4 times per week.  

 

CBT talks with my son and helps us both see the bigger picture.  CBT is relatable and helps me to understand how low processing and wm affects my son's ability to take in new information.  CBT is big about helping DS to raise his own awareness.   There are times when DS has not done things and I have been mighty peeved.  As his mother, I have to forgive when the forgetting was not purposeful and help reinforce the steps.  An employer will be different, so I'm shooting for DS to be functional and independent.  Progress is slow, steady, and not immediately evident, and then "Whoop, there it is." 

 

The wheels can fall off the process because life happens and we get off our schedule.  We then recommit to whatever is pressing and get going again.  December and January were horrible.  FIL died.  I had melanoma surgery and met with the surgeon and oncologist alone because DH was with his mom and traveling.  CBT work has been great as my kids lost no time during that chaos, but by the end of it, DS needed some reminders from me.  DS is getting better about telling me quickly when he encounters a stumbling block.  With the CBT, we discuss problem-solving strategies so that DS can help himself when issues arise.  We are in a perpetual state of flexibility.  

[ktgrok]

To address just this one small part, I usually just don't allow this. Often, the less you do, the less you want to do. My rule is, you have to leave the house, and you have to talk to actual human beings in person, lol. You can choose or I can choose, but you're leaving the house. 

 

My kids are NT, with tendency toward anxiety, and lots of anxiety and depression in family tree. 

Yeah, but I can't MAKE a kid a foot taller than me do anything. 

[kbutton]

December and January were horrible.  FIL died.  I had melanoma surgery and met with the surgeon and oncologist alone because DH was with his mom and traveling.  CBT work has been great as my kids lost no time during that chaos, but by the end of it, DS needed some reminders from me.  DS is getting better about telling me quickly when he encounters a stumbling block.  With the CBT, we discuss problem-solving strategies so that DS can help himself when issues arise.  We are in a perpetual state of flexibility.  

 

That is a horrible December and January! I am sorry for your loss and about your health issues. ((Hugs))

 

This is really helpful for me to hear. I think that CBT as you are describing it could work for some kiddos with ASD, but it might need to be tailored a bit, or the therapist might need to be really insightful about people with ASD. The Attwood book I mentioned earlier about depression in individuals with ASD is CBT-based, but he gets really concrete about how a person with ASD might experience emotions (including as bodily sensations). So, it's CBT principles, but it really keeps ASD differences in mind. It brings the CBT within reach. Otherwise, the person with ASD might conclude "I don't have that feeling" or "That won't help me" when really, it just needs a little tweaking. I actually thought the book was very "rational" in a way some less emotive people would find helpful, whether they are on the spectrum or not. 

 

What your son does with a therapist is not completely unlike what my son does with his BCBA, but the BCBA does more hands-on practice and teaching the self-monitoring while doing things as practice. I would guess that what your son and his therapist do in a session or two would need to be repeated in various contexts and with lots of help over quite a bit of time with my son (and probably would be far more steps). I can see something less hands-on and straight CBT working when he's older, potentially. The other thing about the ABA approach is that a BCBA can observe behavior (of all kinds) and draw conclusions. Then those conclusions can inform the approach. So, it requires less self-awareness on the part of the individual receiving the targeted therapy. My son is pretty self-aware, but he doesn't like to really face things head-on sometimes. So, the BCBA can see he's avoiding a task and put in supports that help him not avoid. It kinds of skips over his needing to be completely on board emotionally or cognitively, but it doesn't mean he won't connect the supports and the help with "Oh, the next time I feel like avoiding, I can try this strategy." But, an ABA can use reasoning, talking, goal-setting, etc. if that works. It's almost like a "try before you buy" experience for my son--he comes to a grudging acceptance that these things have been proven to help, lol! I am not sure I'm comparing those methods with all the important nuances, but that's been sort of our experience of late.

 

The things your son is allowed to do or misses out on for doing the CBT work is very ABA-like also with reinforcers. So, I think maybe CBT and ABA for someone on the spectrum who doesn't have a really high need for support would not be all that different depending who is implementing it and how well they can tailor things for someone on the spectrum.

 

Thank you for taking the time to type some of that out. I am hoping that even if this is a bit of a rabbit trail, it will be helpful to people reading, and if Katy is able to find a life-coach for her son, this might help her know what things to ask given her son's individual strengths.

[ktgrok]

Ok, in good news, he can keep doing Dual Enrollment! He is on Academic Warning and has to complete an online tutorial before he can register for classes but he can continue. Huge relief. 

[katilac]

Yeah, but I can't MAKE a kid a foot taller than me do anything. 

 

But can you bribe him? What's his currency? 

 

Ok, in good news, he can keep doing Dual Enrollment! He is on Academic Warning and has to complete an online tutorial before he can register for classes but he can continue. Huge relief. 

 

Awesome! 

[Heathermomster]

 

The CBT calls this achievement motivation goal setting.  A lot of our time is spent figuring out how to circumvent obstacles of boredom and internal motivators.  

 

Edited May 16, 2017 by Heathermomster

[ktgrok]

sigh, so the saga continues. He's hesitant to sign up for the SAT still...but then talks about how great he'll do...when he's ready. I suggested he could prep all summer if need be to be ready in August and he said he doesn't want to spend his summer studying. I may have then said something about how since he wasn't doing much school work this past semester he shouldn't need much of a break..which didn't go over well. sigh. And when I said he needs to take it within a certain amount of time to apply to college (which he was asking about...saying he wanted to apply as soon as possible) he said then well, if I am not ready for the SAT in time I'll just take a semester off and apply to college later. (mind you, not suggesting a gap year to mature, he ws just saying he'd rather not study over the summer for the SAT even if it meant delaying college.)

 

He also no longer is doing his server admin job anymore. I suggested a few places he could apply and he said he wants a job that either pays better or is easier (than bag boy at local grocery store) so is going to keep thinking. Um, kiddo, you are a teen in high school, you aren't going to find a well paying easy job! 

 

He has all these great ideas of how things will be but won't put any of it in motion, perhaps fearing it won't live up to his expectations. 

 

 

[Laurel-in-CA]

I'm sorry your student is struggling. I just wanted to say that the disability services @ the community college where my middle dd attends have been wonderfully helpful. She doesn't have an "official diagnosis" of a learning disability but they are willing to test her for it, free. She does have migraines, and that's been enough to get separate quiet rooms for tests, even one of those recording pens. She spends lots of time at the tutorial center and has gotten help with both math and english. I know her issues probably aren't the same as your son's, but I have definitely found the disability folks to be great.

 

Does your son have a mentor outside the family he would be willing to meet with weekly? Just discussing his week's assignments and study plan could possibly help a lot.

[ktgrok]

I think the disabilities office is a good idea, and to sit down with someone to plan out what the future looks like, etc. But....of course he feels he needs no help, he's got this all under control. Sigh. Will talk to him about it, but not hopeful. 

[OneStepAtATime]

:grouphug:  :grouphug:  :grouphug:

[kbutton]

I am sorry this has been so difficult. Does he have friends that are willing to (nicely) tell him that he's not judging this situation very objectively?

[katilac]

Yeah, but I can't MAKE a kid a foot taller than me do anything. 

 

My kids are tiny, but, just for the record, I don't physically make them do anything, lol. They just know that required things must be done before we accommodate the things they want to do. We control the transportation, because our public transit is pitiful, and if all else fails, we control internet access. It's not nearly as much fun staying home if there are no good snacks and no internet.

 

I know that the ASD issues make this even harder to do, but I didn't want anyone to have images of me physically dragging my teens into and then out of the car to socialize  :laugh:

 

Your latest post - that's tough. There is only so much you can do.

 

Regarding the job situation, will he start feeling the lack of incoming money soon? If so, you could let that one take its natural course.

 

Regarding school stuff - have you tried bribery? I know, it probably goes against all of your maternal instincts, but sometimes it works, and he's at a point where his next few decisions could really make a big difference. 

 

Would he meet with the disability office if you take him to lunch? Study and take a practice test for SAT if you pay cold, hard cash? 

[Guest2]

Hugs! These years are hard on us moms. Would he be willing retake English from the same teacher and humanities from a different/ better organized teacher? I think most schools will substitute the better grade.

 

Would the disability services at his school recommend teachers who would be a better fit? I would guess they may not offically recommend them, but might be able to steer him the right direction.

 

I hope you both have a great summer!

[PeterPan]

Hey, I kinda didn't stick my nose in, but this keeps popping up and I thought I'd try. :D 

 

My dd did 9 credits this semester DE plus a couple productions, and she's about the same age as your ds. When I look at your ds' list first semester, it was more concrete and I'm guessing stuff he's into. When I look at 2nd semester, it went way off the deep end with social thinking, memorization, stuff that wasn't likely to be a good fit for him. I also think you'd got some immaturity/readiness issues, some problem-solving issues, and some mom-pushing vs. dc-pushing. 

 

And you know I'm only saying things straight, saying that to be provocative and make you go hmm. Like you could totally disagree and go no, I'm here, I know. Fine. But I'm just saying there could be more takes. As an outsider looking in, I'm wondering if that list of classes was in areas where he's especially interested (hence motivated, hence having prior knowledge, hence being extra ready to do advanced work) or if it was more like oh you need this for a requirement kind of gig. I think you can think through that thought process.

 

Did he *want* to quit his admin job or you thought it wasn't healthy or he was fired? It seems like that might have been an area of special interest, and now he's left with entry level jobs. That's fine too! I'm just wondering if there's a way to get that back or to get him working in his area of special interest.

 

So I'll ask flat up, why are you pushing college? Why are you telling him to get his butt together and do the SAT now? Why *now*? Why not when he's 20? He's gonna mature a LOT between now and 20, and you could +2 this kid on everything and have a different human being to work with. It would really be something to consider.

 

As an aside, I wouldn't have him take the SAT until you'd done samples of both the ACT and SAT to know which he does better on. He's self-assessing he's very bright, but you might have a fiasco if he takes it before he has the structure (accommodations, experience with the type of test, experience with the time management, experience dealing with testing anxiety, etc.) to do it WELL and at the level his brain functions. He could have a strong reaction if there's a big discrepancy there. I wouldn't be rushing that. I'd be more concerned about getting that foundation, that READINESS to do the test. When, in the next year or two, he has that, THEN take the test. No rush. Just +2 everything and get off this crazy train. 

 

You might be able to find a test prep service with experience with autism. It sounds like that kind of structure and working with an outside mentor could ease some of this tension. You've got new mom hormones and a stressful kid. Maybe it's time to bring in mentors.

 

Speaking of mentors, now would be a good time to do some serious career testing and career counseling. I had dd do it through the university for free. If you found a psych who specializes in autism, that might be worth the money. Or take the results from the college office and say hey let's run these by someone who gets autism and get more personalized counsel, and then take them to somebody who specializes in Social Thinking or that psych.

 

At the Social Thinking workshop I went to last month, they told story after story of people who assumed getting their autistic child through college would solve everything and assure their future, and the difficulties getting through college later ended up being the issues that made them unemployable. MGW (Michele Garcia Winner) was BEGGING, literally begging, people to get off the college crazy train and just go where does this child fit, where can he function, where can he have a sense that he wakes up and contributes to society. 

 

She had a LOT of stories like that. High IQ kids, out in the Silicone Valley, way gifted. And she'd get them out of college and working at Target and the kid was happy, at peace, loved it, doing well, had well-being. And the parents are like ok now he's doing really well and can go back to college! And she's like no, let him have his well-being.

 

I'm just tossing that out to be provocative, to let you have other stories just to give you options. I don't know him. I know for my ds, I think +2 is essential. The writing is on the wall. I wanted to give my dd +1, and she's such a crazy mix of EF issues and advancement. She's just choosing to make it work. But she doesn't have autism and the social thinking and the RIGIDITY issues and the extremism issues and the self-advocacy and problem solving issues, kwim? My ds is more like your ds, sounds like. The things your ds is doing, struggling with problem solving, saying things to cover that he doesn't have the skills...

 

I would definitely connect him to some mentors. I would definitely do some career testing and get that in the hands of someone who really gets him who can give you some counsel. And I would consider more bake time. 

 

Btw, don't know what you have access to, but there are Social Thinking people (SLPs, OTs, it varies) who are teaching the 360 Thinking time management strategies. They have stuff specifically for college. Someone trained in it would literally sit and work with your ds and help him learn to apply it. And if he hasn't had any Social Thinking work in general, maybe finding someone who's exceptional with it would be helpful right now. MGW actually really loves high schoolers and adults. There are therapists who really get into it as their gig and like that challenge. There are a LOT of materials for this age now. It would be a reason to do that +2 and slow down, to give him time to access things.

 

Once you graduate him and cut that string, everything is a little harder. Like it could be easier, but sometimes *not* graduating him gives you more room to help him. Around here people will keep them ungraduated a couple more years to continue access, to continue services. So baking till they're 20 when they have ASD is not uncommon here. And it's NOT about IQ. We're already talking about it for ds.

 

[Guest]

.

Edited June 5, 2017 by Guest

[ktgrok]

To clarify HE is the one saying he wants to go to college and a 4 yr school at that. I've mentioned staying at the community college for a few years but he sort of blew me off. And he's doing dual enrollment because it was his choice. The classes were his choice this semester- he likes art history (no essays lol) and he likes the English professor. Humanities he took because a friend was taking it and it was a bad choice. Way too abstract.

 

I'm not pushing for college I'm just pushing not sitting around playing video games.

[ktgrok]

And the SAT or ACT is because he had said he didn't want to stay at the community college. And has no initiative in getting another job.

 

Oh and the server he was an admin for made money because a famous gamer played on it. When he stopped playing that game it stopped making money. I did find out my son is still acting as an admin to some extent but not making money at it really.