So if your 5yo said this to another kid...

[LMD]

really? Yes, there's a time and a place and nuances around appropriate audiences that I, as an adult, can judge with a measure of accuracy. Hence, giggling at off the wall descriptions from children = usually pretty ok. Laughing at suffering = usually not nice.

[8circles]

well, I'm feeling a bit prickly at the idea that I'm not allowed to laugh at something clearly ridiculous, except in the privacy of my own home.

I could easily see laughing as a first response, even in front of the other family, as a way to diffuse the situation and highlight the absurdity of 5 year olds.

 

I am really struggling with what people are wanting here?

a boring, safe world where people are castigated for laughing at the 'wrong' moment? I hope that the parents in question choose their audience better in future, and I hope that the child matures, but I don't see the big deal at all. Some people are sensitive? okay, some people aren't. Labelling a 5 year old relative because of a mismatch in sensitivity levels is mean imo.

If they really are a 'bad' family that the people in question can't bear to be around, well that's up to them - not up to a message board.

The op wanted to know what other people would think and was happy with the wide range of responses.

 

LMD, I agree with your assessment of the OP's situation. Just wanted to clarify that since it seems to be conflated with HSP in general - I am a HSP but this 5 yr-old is totally normal and laughing at his comment seems appropriate to me.

[Garga]

I work with kids that age and their regular old play can be about blowing up the whole planet while building some contraption on the playground to do it, kind of preschool OM style. Hot lava is a favorite topic. I can't quote you anything but I know the first couple times, I kinda was wide-eyed. The director told me it's very normal play. I would have had a different reaction if I hadn't heard this myself. None of the kids saying these things is even slightly aggressive. 

 

 

So my question would be whether it was truly an attempted threat or a statement in play that an adult got upset about.

 

Maybe this is why there is so much bullying in schools and the teachers don't do anything about it. Because their directors are telling them it's normal.

 

It's sort of like when my kids were 5 and I was told it was normal for them to start to disassociate from me. But instead, I decided to keep them home and homeschool them and "smother" them. Sometimes the experts don't know squat. Sometimes they say something is "normal" because they've never seen another way. Sort of like how my OB told me about all the interventions I'd need to give birth, so I went to a midwife and all of a sudden those "necessary" interventions weren't necessary.

[swellmomma]

Couple of thoughts as I read the thread, to me while the threat was over the top I do not think it warranted a note home, a reminder to the boy of appropriate words to be used at school by the teacher should have been enough. As well, he is a young child who is saying ridiculous things, even if he says rude things regularly that means he says rude things not that he is a terrible child.Third, I see so often in my line of work so many people crying bully when the behaviour is simply rude or mean.  Pushing into a mud puddle is mean but not bullying, saying what he did is rude but not bullying.  Bullying is not just intent to do harm, it is someone intending to do harm through the repeated and consistent targeting of someone. 

This child may have undiagnosed issues, he may simply be a child who needs more supports and guidance in prosocial behaviours, or he may be a child being raised in a home where rude behaviours are the norm.  In the end he is still a child that needs to be actively taught appropriate behaviours and not be labelled as a trouble maker, bully, etc at only 5 yrs old.  A child already clearly hated by family will not care if they learn the proper behaviours because they are already labelled in a negative way. 

[LMD]

LMD, I agree with your assessment of the OP's situation. Just wanted to clarify that since it seems to be conflated with HSP in general - I am a HSP but this 5 yr-old is totally normal and laughing at his comment seems appropriate to me.

thanks 8circles. :)

can I just clarify that I certainly wouldn't intend to offend anyone who is more sensitive, and I teach my children to choose kindness.

 

I may also be somewhat ornery about unrelated freedom issues today so I'm sorry if I come across too passionate here...

[heartlikealion]

really? Yes, there's a time and a place and nuances around appropriate audiences that I, as an adult, can judge with a measure of accuracy. Hence, giggling at off the wall descriptions from children = usually pretty ok. Laughing at suffering = usually not nice.

 

In general, yes.

 

[StaceyinLA]

Yeah, we don't know. I'm just saying that if you're not friends with someone then rude and/or mean things are not seen as funny or even necessarily acceptable. They are seen as rude and/or mean. Saying, "my eyeballs are on fire I'm so mad" is way different than, "You're driving me nuts, I want to light your eyes on fire." Yes, this child may not be able to have the judgement to discern that. I guess we can give him a pass. I was picking on the parents because they laughed at the matter in front of the parents of the other child. Laugh in the privacy of your home or with other friends if you want... but at least don't do it in front of the parents of the child that was upset. I don't even know how this happened, guess they are all linked on facebook or something.

I need to clarify; the parents did not laugh in front of the other parents. The parents were sent home a note, shared the note via group text with her siblings and in-laws (one of which is my daughter), and told them in the text that they laughed when they read it.

 

Also, the kid he said it to was a classmate or kid on the playground; not a child we know.

 

I was saying that it bothered my dd that he said this to another kid BECAUSE of the type of behaviors he has exhibited and things he has said to her son (my grandson) almost every time they are together.

 

And I have never once blamed "bad parenting" for what it's worth. I don't think they are present enough necessarily, but I wouldn't call them bad parents. In most respects, I consider them to be pretty good parents, although I mentioned I do think the dad has that "I want my son to be tough" mindset, which can sometimes be annoying.

[StaceyinLA]

And the OP says herself that she didn't hear it and doesn't know what tone was used. So perhaps we should trust people to parent their own children. Both the parents of the boy who has been labeled a "jerk" at the tender years of five years old no less. And also the parents of the other child. And the teacher or principal who sent the note. They can work it out between them.with no help from us.

 

Hopefully both boys adults in their corner who truly love them as they are and who are willing to guide them to adulthood. Personally I think that either extreme of being overly brash or overly sensitive can be somewhat of a handicap to people as they grow up. But none of it is decided on the basis of one playground incident and certainly not by five years old.

I'm really sorry that my saying the child is kind of a jerk has bothered you. Honestly, when my grandson is over here and acts rudely, I will comment to my daughter later that he acted like a jerk. I would not say this to him, nor would I say this to someone's child.

 

However, this child is, at almost 6 years old, a jerk ("person who treats others badly" according to Merriam-Webster). I hope he grows out of it.

[StaceyinLA]

I don't know why some people are saying that the boy's parents laughed about it in front of the other boy's parents. It was shared in a group text - to family - presumably to other adults. If the child's aunt is unhappy with how the boy treats her kids then she needs to deal with it directly right then and there. All the aunts I know will say something like "Kids, I want you to share your toys" or "Kids, please speak nicely to each other". And then actually supervise them.

 

As to whether family should share such stories with each other - well, that might depend on family dynamics but there is nothing wrong with asking to be kept off of the group texts if such stories bother you. But I don't have much sympathy with adults branding young children with labels. It makes me wonder if he is then treated according to those labels, making it all a self-fulfilling prophecy. (I shared stories of my daughter stealing candy from the store when she was five, and fortunately the adults all laughed and no one branded her as a thief at the age of five. I did have her take the candy back and we dealt with it, but that was not part of what really was a funny story of her going behind me and taking candies out of the open bins in the store's self serve section.)

You know, if they shared one story, it wouldn't be an issue. It's a pattern of behavior with this child. THAT is the issue. It is something that happens all the time. My daughter absolutely does watch the kids when they are together because she knows he will say and do hurtful things. Of course, once someone says "I wish you were dead," to your child, it's too late to really step in and take that away.

 

And I'M the one that called him a jerk, right here in this thread because I think he's a jerk. He's not been "labeled" by anyone else; clearly they think he's funny. This is a kid I see maybe 3 times a year, so I don't believe I'm causing him any detriment by using the term "jerk" about him here.

[StaceyinLA]

I honestly somehow didn't realize that the families were related. I know it states it in the OP but it didn't sink in. Yeah, they need to be supervised and the aunt(s) or whoever should speak up if there are issues. Now the group text chain makes more sense, since they are related. But if you know who your audience is, you might wanna rethink that text. I could see that going either way (hey it was a harmless text, don't sweat it). As for noticing laughter, they probably used a laughing emoji. The whole thing seems more harmless now that I'm understanding the group text context better but yes still questionable judgement.

 

As far as branding a kid a jerk or a thief. I think that was done after multiple interactions, not one? So if your child stole candy multiple times, yes, it's possible that other parents might whisper to each other, "keep an eye on this one, she might steal from you" or such. It wouldn't surprise me. And no, people shouldn't get stuck with a label just because of something that happened at age five.

Just making sure this is clear; the incident with the threat at school was NOT to someone related.

 

The copy of the note the teacher sent home was shared with the siblings and in-laws and that was where it was mentioned that they laughed about it - they were at home, not in front of the other parents when they read it and laughed about it.

 

The reason it bothered my daughter is because he says and does very rude things to my grandson and granddaughter regularly, so the threat he made to the other child seemed especially graphic and worrisome to her.

[StaceyinLA]

Couple of thoughts as I read the thread, to me while the threat was over the top I do not think it warranted a note home, a reminder to the boy of appropriate words to be used at school by the teacher should have been enough. As well, he is a young child who is saying ridiculous things, even if he says rude things regularly that means he says rude things not that he is a terrible child.Third, I see so often in my line of work so many people crying bully when the behaviour is simply rude or mean. Pushing into a mud puddle is mean but not bullying, saying what he did is rude but not bullying. Bullying is not just intent to do harm, it is someone intending to do harm through the repeated and consistent targeting of someone.

 

This child may have undiagnosed issues, he may simply be a child who needs more supports and guidance in prosocial behaviours, or he may be a child being raised in a home where rude behaviours are the norm. In the end he is still a child that needs to be actively taught appropriate behaviours and not be labelled as a trouble maker, bully, etc at only 5 yrs old. A child already clearly hated by family will not care if they learn the proper behaviours because they are already labelled in a negative way.

I do agree with you regarding the bullying; the term is overused. This child has gotten in trouble for "bullying," but that isn't what happened here.

 

However, no one said this child was hated by family. Seriously? Just because you think a kid is jerky and want to be sure they cause no unnecessary harm to your child does NOT mean you hate them. And clearly others in the family think he's hilarious, so I don't think he is in danger of feeling like everyone dislikes him.

 

And he isn't in my family, and only sees me about 3 times a year when I'm serving him cake and ice cream at birthday parties and treating him perfectly fine.

Edited May 13, 2017 by StaceyinLA

[SKL]

We are all a mix of good and bad.

 

I've been guilty of focusing on the not-so-good in some of my extended relatives' kids.  Now that my kids have gone through the ages that those kids were in at those times, I am a lot less judgmental.  :P

 

I have a kid who has acted like a complete a$$hole in front of people who hardly ever see her.  They will always think she is about the worst kid they know.  I sure wish I could have prevented that moment - and I did try in several ways, unsuccessfully.  It is what it is.  That whole family now thinks my kid is a jerk.  I hope my kid learns how to get control of herself so she doesn't sabotage herself further.

 

These are the times when I say that parenting is the most humbling experience I've had.

[Laurie4b]

Maybe this is why there is so much bullying in schools and the teachers don't do anything about it. Because their directors are telling them it's normal.

 

It's sort of like when my kids were 5 and I was told it was normal for them to start to disassociate from me. But instead, I decided to keep them home and homeschool them and "smother" them. Sometimes the experts don't know squat. Sometimes they say something is "normal" because they've never seen another way. Sort of like how my OB told me about all the interventions I'd need to give birth, so I went to a midwife and all of a sudden those "necessary" interventions weren't necessary.

 

No, sorry, you read something into what I wrote that wasn't there. I wonder why you did that. 

 

In the situation I describe no one was being bullied  That came from you, not from anything I wrote. And I think what you said was incredibly rude. You don't know the situation, yet you insinuate that I personally let bullying go on because I am cowed by my "expert" director into thinking bullying is normal. 

 

What I wrote about was that kids seem to be very interested in play involving explosions, volcanos,  hot lava, etc. I have myself observed the play and they are all cheerfully talking about it. There is no bullying. They are engaging in imaginative play..   I was surprised by it, but then I was also surprised by some stuff my own two year old said!

 

If you read the earlier responses on this thread, numerous homeschool mothers think it's normal for kids to talk about this stuff. 

 

In fact, the director of the preschool was a homeschool mother for the entirety of her children's education. I was a homeschool mother through 10th grade. The assistant was homeschooled. We are hardly brainwashed public school employees though I have worked in the public schools as well. 

 

You are way off base in the assumptions you made about what I said. 

Edited May 13, 2017 by Laurie4b

[heartlikealion]

Just making sure this is clear; the incident with the threat at school was NOT to someone related.

 

The copy of the note the teacher sent home was shared with the siblings and in-laws and that was where it was mentioned that they laughed about it - they were at home, not in front of the other parents when they read it and laughed about it.

 

The reason it bothered my daughter is because he says and does very rude things to my grandson and granddaughter regularly, so the threat he made to the other child seemed especially graphic and worrisome to her.

 

Thank you for clarifying. Sorry I got so confused in this thread.

 

Edited May 14, 2017 by heartlikealion

[Jean in Newcastle]

You know, if they shared one story, it wouldn't be an issue. It's a pattern of behavior with this child. THAT is the issue. It is something that happens all the time. My daughter absolutely does watch the kids when they are together because she knows he will say and do hurtful things. Of course, once someone says "I wish you were dead," to your child, it's too late to really step in and take that away.

 

And I'M the one that called him a jerk, right here in this thread because I think he's a jerk. He's not been "labeled" by anyone else; clearly they think he's funny. This is a kid I see maybe 3 times a year, so I don't believe I'm causing him any detriment by using the term "jerk" about him here.

 

No, at five years old, it isn't too late to step in if he says "I wish you were dead".  It also isn't time to label him the next Jeffrey Dahmer.  Little kids can have really big emotions.  They don't know how to handle them.  So the adults in the vicinity need to help them out.  Did he say that because the other child took a toy from  him?  Then reframe it for him, "__________, it would be better for you to tell him that you were playing with that toy.  Please ask him to wait his turn".  Did he have to wait when he didn't want to?  "__________, you will get your turn.  Perhaps you can run down to the mailbox and back while you wait."  I'm not a huge "it takes a village" person but with littles, it can be necessary esp. if the parents don't know how to do it.  Lots of little kids say "I hate you" or "I wish you were dead" at five years old.  In that sense, this too is normal.  Does it mean that the adults in the vicinity leave it be and say nothing?  No.  It means that they understand that the child doesn't really mean it and they don't get all upset about it.  Of course if the child is showing real pathological behavior - purposefully hurting ones smaller than him or animals etc. then you would want to strongly suggest professional help.  But so far nothing that has been said about this rough-and-tumble boy suggests that. 

[Daria]

I think there are many behaviors that are developmentally appropriate, and that also need to be addressed by adults.  Throwing food at 1.  Running in the street at 2.  Pointing out funny looking people in public at 3.  Pushing the limits of your curfew at 16 . . . The kid's job is to experiment with it, and the adult's job is to set boundaries, use it as a teaching opportunity, and shape the child's behavior to something safer and/or more socially acceptable.  

 

To me, this is totally in that category of behavior.  5 year olds are still figuring out so many things.  They have enormous imaginations, and haven't yet learned how and when to rein them in.  They love to play socially, but haven't figured out some of the finer points, like looking at someone's face to check that they're still having fun.  They can express all sorts of complicated thoughts, but haven't yet learned that while it's acceptable, even expected to tell people "You're going to die!"  in a game of hot lava, it's not a welcome comment when made to Nana.  

 

Given all that, if my 5 year old said these things, and it lead to another child being upset, I would not be very surprised, and would probably be amused at the creativity, while also wanting to convey to my child that I was very surprised, and disappointed.  So, it would probably go something like this.

 

"Wow Johnny, Ms. So and So just told me what you said about this.  I need a few minutes to think about this.  You wait here for me".  

 

Go into other room, reach out to someone I know loves my kid, perhaps via text or group text, to say "isn't my kid ridiculous!" and to get any laughter or amusement out of my system so my kid doesn't sense it.

 

Return to the room for a short lecture, and some thinking about how to make it right with said kid.  

 

Call the other parent, apologize profusely, ask them if there's anything they can think of (playdate, apology note, etc . . . ) that would help their child feel better and repair the relationship.  

 

 

[Bluegoat]

highly sensitive is fine, but malicious intent shouldn't be applied just because someone isn't as sensitive either. Especially over a ridiculously hyperbolic, cartoonish comment from a small child who is still learning social appropriateness. I mean really, no one thinks he actually wants to light eyeballs on fire, do they? It's a pretty common 'character is angry' cue, especially in cartoons - like this one (link to a screenshot from 'The Amazing World of Gumball' where the mother character is angry and has eyes of literal fire)

Isn't it pretty common imagery in literature, I'm sure that 'eyes lit up' is basically a cliché, can you imagine how it sounds to a literal minded 5 year old?

https://www.google.com.au/search?q=cartoon+gumball+eyes+fire&client=ms-android-samsung&prmd=ivsn&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwivx4TyruvTAhWLgbwKHaB0BBoQ_AUICigB&biw=320&bih=452#imgrc=mJRwfmm1VnjWJM:

 

I'm not sure if it matters if there was malicious intent, it's still not something to get worked up about.  I remember being that age, and even older, and being so angry at someone that I really wished that their head would explode - I felt like I was going to explode with emotion.

 

That kind of extreme emotion isn't that unusual, and it isn't developmentally abnormal.  It's also not developmentally abnormal for some kids to be more agressive at that age, and of course that comes out in their interactions.

 

What should happen is over time, maturity and direction from adults will make these things less of a problem until the kids have better control.  And it's also the time to teach other kids how to deal with problems from more agressive people, or how to ignore things that shouldn't be understood as literal or important, or sometimes those kinds have their own way of influence situations which also cause trouble, and need to be eliminated.

 

Five is very small, they are just beginning to be able to navigate these things, and dealing with them is part of how they learn to do that.

[Paige]

 

Five is very small, they are just beginning to be able to navigate these things, and dealing with them is part of how they learn to do that.

 

Right, and I would much rather a 5 yr old say this kind of stuff, get his anger out, and express it in a relatively safe way that enables the adults around him to understand what he's feeling and guide him in ways to deal with it appropriately than have a 5yr old who keeps it bottled up for fear of what others will think. The 2nd child will have a much harder time learning to deal with his super powerful angry emotions because nobody will know he needs help.