Another martial arts objective opinion needed (thank you)

[38carrots]

Our Sensei was talking to the kids about how important it is stand up for yourself and not allow to be bullied. I liked that part, it was a good message--avoid a fight at all costs, but if you are being attacked, to fight back. But then he was sort of joking / sort of not, and he was saying something like this, to another youth in the group: I will be always better than you. In ten years I will still be better than you. And if you think you can win, you won't. I will either win, or die trying. But I will win. If you wonder why aikido is non-competitive, that's because of me.

 

Everybody was laughing. Even as a joke, this grates on me a little. I need an outside perspective on this. Thank you.

[El...]

Was it a variation of "Old age and deception beats youth and ability?"  My dad says stuff like that.  (It's true, too... I would put nothing past him.)  I wouldn't think that joke was a bad thing.

[38carrots]

Was it a variation of "Old age and deception beats youth and ability?"  My dad says stuff like that.  (It's true, too... I would put nothing past him.)  I wouldn't think that joke was a bad thing.

 

Thank you for the perspective. I'm more used to DD's coach who frequently says, "I want all my students to be better than me. You might never get there, but if you do, I'll be very happy for you and will take lessons from you." But that's not in martial arts.

[Rebel Yell]

That's weird. I find it arrogant that anyone short of a tenth degree master would even say that, and even for them, I'd expect that their hope is for their students to equal or surpass them.

 

BabyBaby's (she is currently second degree black belt and instructor) first karate teacher actively encouraged her to find an additional gym to train at, in a different style, because her classmates weren't a good match for her to train with, among other reasons. When she gets a new belt at her other gym, he announces it in class and encourages her to bring some of her other training to their workouts. If she surpassed him in training he'd be overjoyed.

[Rebel Yell]

But I also get the thought that, especially in martial arts, instructors are effective through old age, unlike other sports where they have a limited career and age counts against them.

 

But still and odd thing to say, IMO

[Mimm]

Eh, maybe he had experience with some of the students walking around thinking they were hot stuff and he felt like they needed to be put in their place a little. :) If you don't have any other problems with the sensei, I would assume the best of intentions.

[38carrots]

That's weird. I find it arrogant that anyone short of a tenth degree master would even say that, and even for them, I'd expect that their hope is for their students to equal or surpass them.

 

BabyBaby's (she is currently second degree black belt and instructor) first karate teacher actively encouraged her to find an additional gym to train at, in a different style, because her classmates weren't a good match for her to train with, among other reasons. When she gets a new belt at her other gym, he announces it in class and encourages her to bring some of her other training to their workouts. If she surpassed him in training he'd be overjoyed.

 

Yes, this is the attitude that I personally admire and would like to cultivate in my kids. I do find our Sensei arrogant, but I tend to take it as a "martial arts" thing. Meaning that if DD's coach said those things to her students, DD would be out of there. But since this is martial arts, I tend to be a bit lost. Plust we have no other decent choices.

 

I just need a bit of a reality check--how common / normal / expected such attitudes are in martial arts.

 

Thank you.

[38carrots]

Eh, maybe he had experience with some of the students walking around thinking they were hot stuff and he felt like they needed to be put in their place a little. :) If you don't have any other problems with the sensei, I would assume the best of intentions.

 

This would make sense. My "problem" is that I find him insanely arrogant for a teacher, and because of that I find him somewhat intimidating. He does plenty good things too, so it is a balance. My younger two like him a lot. My oldest can't stand him and quit because of him.

[gardenmom5]

Our local psych hospital ONLY uses PAs and social workers. They have one psychiatrist that overseas the psych ER and the unit, but as he doesn't have any real patient contact I don't know that he's useful in prescribing.

 

I think this scenario is much much more common than people realize. There are not enough psychiatrists, psychologists, or mental health beds available.

 

 

I find it grating.   it's possible the message was -there will always be someone better.  and that's pretty much true - but his delivery could use work.

 

eta: - and his lack of acknowledgement there is someone better than him . . . .

Edited May 7, 2017 by gardenmom5

[mathnerd]

This would make sense. My "problem" is that I find him insanely arrogant for a teacher, and because of that I find him somewhat intimidating. He does plenty good things too, so it is a balance. My younger two like him a lot. My oldest can't stand him and quit because of him.

In my experience, all the Grand Masters that we have known (totally 3) establish a hierarchy where they are unquestionably the "boss" in the Dojo. This talk might be a method that he uses to keep all the young and upcoming talent from thinking that they can be better than him and to show unconditional respect to him. True martial artists never brag and consider humility a virtue.

 

One very senior but young instructor in my son's previous martial arts school used to talk like this and back it up with some moves (performance only, not contact sparring, ever) that no one else could come close to executing - he did this often in front of a group of preteen boys who were hard to control. He would look frustrated while trying to keep them in line and he showed off (along with bragging) to impress upon them that he knew more than them, and hence deserved automatic respect.

 

I guess, your oldest is old enough to understand that arrogance is not really a virtue in martial arts and quit.

 

Since you say that there are very few other options available, if you feel that your kids are learning good technique and are progressing, just ignore this incident.

[wintermom]

True martial artists never brag and consider humility a virtue.

 

 

This is what my Taekwon-Do masters have always said and supported through their actions and words. One of my masters trained in Korea with the founder himself. 

 

Mutual respect between the master and the students is promoted, as well as between competitors in matches. I don't see how one can cultivate an atmosphere of mutual respect by bragging that you'll always win. It's also not true. A well-trained 20 year old is going to be able to physically beat an old man, no matter how wonderful he thinks he'll still be in his 80s. The smart old man would avoid a fight altogether; perhaps die trying to avoid conflict.

 

It's possible that his little speech needs to be understood better within the context of the setting in which it was said. 

 

I would have a discussion with the man about this in order to gain a better understand of what he meant.

Edited May 7, 2017 by wintermom

[Guest]

I dunno, I say stuff like this to my kids all the time.

 

For example, a couple times (once, each) when they were screaming bloody murder, I hollered as loud as I could and pointed out that no matter how loud they could be, they'd never be louder than me because I'd always be two decades ahead of them in the screaming game.

 

Likewise, we've pointed out that while theoretically they might be bigger and stronger than their dad* some day, he has several decade's worth of study on them, and always will.

 

Really none of it matters. I'm HOPEFULLY not raising kids who will grow up to want to beat the tar out of old men.  But while they are little, they need some perspective.

 

I feel like this kind of talking replaces the actual scrapes people like DH and I found ourselves in as children, and I think it's better TBH. I want the kids to have an accurate opinion of their abilities, and they can come to those sets of realizations by getting into an actual fight and losing, or they can have it pointed out to them by someone with good intentions toward them.

 

I guess if someone has never had a cocky and/or aggro kid (or, uhm, been one :rolleyes: ) it can sound like a bit much. But if you have, you know they are going to learn sooner or later, one way or the other, and you will develop a clear preference. 

...or you won't. Different strokes.

 

*I seriously doubt this, as it happens, but it looks like their baby brother is going to have the jump on them in every way by the time he's ten :-D

Edited May 7, 2017 by OKBud

[wintermom]

Thank you for the perspective. I'm more used to DD's coach who frequently says, "I want all my students to be better than me. You might never get there, but if you do, I'll be very happy for you and will take lessons from you." But that's not in martial arts.

 

In martial arts there is a deep and important culture of respect for instructors and seniors. This could be a discussion to remind the students of this. It's not just about respecting seniors for their age, but also because their knowledge and experience is very valuable. In addition, there is very often a size difference between teens and mature males. Teens may have speed and agility, but the mass of most mature men will allow them a huge advantage over youth. 

[Paige]

Our masters have never said that, but it's likely true. Our first two were 9th and 8th degree BBs, so they were very, very good. I think even if they were 70 years old they could beat almost anyone, and my kids are not likely to surpass those instructors in their lifetimes. It just takes a long time. There's more to it than strength and if they continue to train and not stagnate then it's hard for someone who started after them to catch up. 

 

It's not just about being better physically at sparring. It's about mental discipline, self control, personal habits, etc. I would consider a 70yr old master with good personal discipline and an understanding of the art built by years of practice to be better than a 25yr old young man who may physically be able to beat an old man but doesn't have the understanding or heart to know that he shouldn't, kwim? 

 

I don't think I like the attitude of rubbing it in their faces, however. Humility is supposed to be a virtue, but perhaps context would soften it. 

Edited May 7, 2017 by Paige

[MistyMountain]

They say similar at the place my kids go to but not that they will never be better then a particular sensei that is them but that it takes a lot of work and many years to learn and there may be someone who is always better. They say if you use your techniques you can win matches but that you will lose a lot too and it is part of the process. I notice the sensei will be much harder on the kids that are farther along. The martial art they do is a version where to take much longer to earn belts and it is very low key when they do and I am ok with that. It is likely true that a kid will not surpass a sensei who is still training and working on getting better themselves. I guess it is hard to tell if he is really arrogant or if he is trying to show them to respect the sensei and humility. I would guess he is not meaning to be arrogant but maybe he does not always have a way with words at times.

Edited May 7, 2017 by MistyMountain

[Butter]

Yes, this is the attitude that I personally admire and would like to cultivate in my kids. I do find our Sensei arrogant, but I tend to take it as a "martial arts" thing. Meaning that if DD's coach said those things to her students, DD would be out of there. But since this is martial arts, I tend to be a bit lost. Plust we have no other decent choices.

 

I just need a bit of a reality check--how common / normal / expected such attitudes are in martial arts.

 

I've seen the arrogance and it drives me crazy.  Every class we recite the thing and it says "respect for juniors and seniors."  IME the most arrogant instructors are the ones who lose students (where there is competition).  Our instructor hopes his students will surpass him.  At graduation the other day he brought up how a parent had told him that Mr. Duk (my 15yo son) is looking really sharp and is almost as good as our instructor.  This is not the case.  While my son is really good, our instructor is amazing.  But our instructor brought it up to say he *wants* his students to get as good as him and get better than him.  He feels like he is training the next generation of instructors (my son has already made it clear this is his career choice) so an "I'll always be better than you" attitude is not appropriate.