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Classic books and diversity


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I think modern Americans have their own set of prejudices. The most problematic right now is Chronological Snobbery.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronological_snobbery

 

it is ironic that in an attempt to do the opposite of people of the past, many people are being even more narrow. 

 

What is we could travel through time. Aren't we talking about the people of the past even worse than people were talking about people of other cultures? if we could visit these people, would we think it was okay to talk about them the way we do? And to forbid our children to read their literature? Would we forbid our children to talk to them? Is forbidding books the same as forbidding discussion?

 

I think mainstream American society is incredibly isolated in ways they don't recognize. Not being a mainstreamer I see how different they are from me, but most of them just see me as inferior and wrong and unwholesome and damaged. A drain on society. I live daily recognizing my exclusion.

 

Mainstream television is other to me. I don't even identify with it at all anymore. I'd no more hand a child of mine all modern books than all old ones. And when broke, I'd just hand a child whatever I had. That would be more likely to be all older as they are cheaper.

 

I think wanting to restrict a child's reading to all modern books shows a lack of diverse experiences by the parent. Mainstreamers are not diverse, in my opinion. And I often find them odd. I often feel like the child in the Story of the Emperor's New Clothes. When I start really talking about mainstream society, people either laugh hysterically, dismiss me as disabled, or both.

 

People are weird. People were weird. People will always be weird. And the weirdest thing is weird people that don't think they themselves are weird.

Edited by Hunter
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Older books written by non-whites

 

Indian Boyhood

http://www.mainlesson.com/display.php?author=eastman&book=boyhood&story=_contents

Wigwam Evenings

http://www.gutenberg.org/files/28099/28099-h/28099-h.htm

and other stories by Charles Eastman

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Eastman

 

Matthew Henson

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matthew_Henson

A Negro Explorer at the North Pole

https://www.gutenberg.org/files/20923/20923-h/20923-h.htm

 

Alexandre Dumas

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexandre_Dumas

The Three Musketeers

https://www.amazon.com/Three-Musketeers-Alexandre-Dumas-ebook/dp/B004TP8ZZE

The Man in the Iron Mask

https://www.amazon.com/Iron-Mask-Alexandre-Dumas-père-ebook/dp/B0083Z50Z4/ref=tmm_kin_title_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=1493320449&sr=1-11

and many more

 

Poems by Phillis Wheatley

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phillis_Wheatley

 

Older books written by disabled people

 

Helen Keller the Story of My Life

http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/2397

 

Older books by people living in poverty

 

Jack London was born into poverty and wrote a lot of books that mainstreamers seldom mention

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_London

like the Iron Heel

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Iron_Heel

 

I don't think there is a lack of older diverse books as much as there is non-diverse people only passing along books from their OWN non-diverse upbringing. Or just assuming books like The Three Musketeers was written by a white dude. Yes, the publishing houses catered to non-diversity, but they still do, even when pretending not to.

 

 

Edited by Hunter
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Modern books that show mummies and present it as acceptable to place PEOPLE in museums among works of art. That freaks me out!

 

If future people ever hop on a chronological snobbery kick and vilify us for it, what are they going to say about mummy books?

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I think modern Americans have their own set of prejudices. The most problematic right now is Chronological Snobbery.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronological_snobbery

 

it is ironic that in an attempt to do the opposite of people of the past, many people are being even more narrow. 

 

What is we could travel through time. Aren't we talking about the people of the past even worse than people were talking about people of other cultures? if we could visit these people, would we think it was okay to talk about them the way we do? And to forbid our children to read their literature? Would we forbid our children to talk to them? Is forbidding books the same as forbidding discussion?

 

I think mainstream American society is incredibly isolated in ways they don't recognize. Not being a mainstreamer I see how different they are from me, but most of them just see me as inferior and wrong and unwholesome and damaged. A drain on society. I live daily recognizing my exclusion.

 

Mainstream television is other to me. I don't even identify with it at all anymore. I'd no more hand a child of mine all modern books than all old ones. And when broke, I'd just hand a child whatever I had. That would be more likely to be all older as they are cheaper.

 

I think wanting to restrict a child's reading to all modern books shows a lack of diverse experiences by the parent. Mainstreamers are not diverse, in my opinion. And I often find them odd. I often feel like the child in the Story of the Emperor's New Clothes. When I start really talking about mainstream society, people either laugh hysterically, dismiss me as disabled, or both.

 

People are weird. People were weird. People will always be weird. And the weirdest thing is weird people that don't think they themselves are weird.

 

Yes. I remember having a discussion with a friend 25 years ago. He was trying to convince me that every single person who lived in the 19th century was a racist and everything every single person said, thought, did, wrote and drew was racist. Everything from not the period we were living in was racist. It was crazy.

 

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Older books written by non-whites

 

Indian Boyhood

http://www.mainlesson.com/display.php?author=eastman&book=boyhood&story=_contents

Wigwam Evenings

http://www.gutenberg.org/files/28099/28099-h/28099-h.htm

and other stories by Charles Eastman

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Eastman

 

Matthew Henson

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matthew_Henson

A Negro Explorer at the North Pole

https://www.gutenberg.org/files/20923/20923-h/20923-h.htm

 

Alexandre Dumas

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexandre_Dumas

The Three Musketeers

https://www.amazon.com/Three-Musketeers-Alexandre-Dumas-ebook/dp/B004TP8ZZE

The Man in the Iron Mask

https://www.amazon.com/Iron-Mask-Alexandre-Dumas-père-ebook/dp/B0083Z50Z4/ref=tmm_kin_title_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=1493320449&sr=1-11

and many more

 

Poems by Phillis Wheatley

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phillis_Wheatley

 

Older books written by disabled people

 

Helen Keller the Story of My Life

http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/2397

 

Older books by people living in poverty

 

Jack London was born into poverty and wrote a lot of books that mainstreamers seldom mention

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_London

like the Iron Heel

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Iron_Heel

 

I don't think there is a lack of older diverse books as much as there is non-diverse people only passing along books from their OWN non-diverse upbringing. Or just assuming books like The Three Musketeers was written by a white dude. Yes, the publishing houses catered to non-diversity, but they still do, even when pretending not to.

 

You might look at Jean Little's books, including her autobiography, to add to your list of books by disabled persons.  Also, Rosemary Sutcliffe.

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Hunter, you're not being fair. If we can't criticize people in the past for writing books that express their values, then why is it fair to criticize people today for reading books that express their values? You're trying to have it both ways! You complain about "chronological snobbery", but what you're doing is criticizing people in the present for the crime of trying to pass on their values to their kids. What's that if not "snobbery"? (And if there is a single constant in all time periods, it's that people try to pass on their values to their kids, and not the values they disagree with.)

 

What is we could travel through time. Aren't we talking about the people of the past even worse than people were talking about people of other cultures? if we could visit these people, would we think it was okay to talk about them the way we do? And to forbid our children to read their literature? Would we forbid our children to talk to them? Is forbidding books the same as forbidding discussion?

 

Enough with the hyperbole. No, we aren't "talking about the people of the past even worse than people were talking about people of other cultures" - and even if we were, they're not exactly being harmed by the rhetoric. They're not being enslaved or murdered or having their children stolen from them. Mentioning specific authors who specifically wrote racist things is hardly the same as going "God, the 1800s sucked, amirite? And those people were all so stupid!" Yeah, you gotta pre-read those books. You gotta pre-read things written today. You do less pre-reading as your kids get older.

 

And we're not "forbidding our children to read their literature" either. I promise you, nobody's kid in America is going to grow up without reading at least one book written by a dead white male. And even those of us who work really, really hard to have a diverse booklist are not going around snatching clandestine copies of Narnia or Half Magic or Tom Sawyer out of the hands of our innocent little sweeties. I only have so many bookcases. My home is not a Tardis. I have a right to purchase only those books I am interested in reading. This isn't "forbidding" books - it's not being a hoarder!

 

And no, even if anybody here was "forbidding" books, that's not the same as "forbidding discussion". Seriously, do you listen to yourself? What exactly do you imagine goes on in our households? Do you think we have locked up our kids so that they'll never be exposed to Shakespeare or The Declaration of Independence? Do you think we don't teach our kids history? Be serious!

 

 

Modern books that show mummies and present it as acceptable to place PEOPLE in museums among works of art. That freaks me out!

 

If future people ever hop on a chronological snobbery kick and vilify us for it, what are they going to say about mummy books?

 

Well, at least we aren't grinding them up to make paint.

 

This issue of human remains in museums is a contentious one, but one way we have improved upon the past is that museums are increasingly taking those remains off of display and returning them to their countries of origin.

 

Edited by Tanaqui
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What I find disturbing is when people put all sorts of labels on things without taking the time to try to understand the context. For me, I am more sensitive when this happens to people who lived in the past, because I am weird like that. They're dead and are unable to defend themselves. But it happens everywhere in politics in the United States. If you put a label on a person, then it's as though you don't have to listen to them if they're not of your tribe.

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What I find disturbing is when people put all sorts of labels on things without taking the time to try to understand the context. For me, I am more sensitive when this happens to people who lived in the past, because I am weird like that. They're dead and are unable to defend themselves. But it happens everywhere in politics in the United States. If you put a label on a person, then it's as though you don't have to listen to them if they're not of your tribe.

 

 

Well, the core of the original question was how to deal with the dehumanization or belittling of groups of people in classic or quality literature. If there is children's literature coming out today that labels all people of the past in a certain way and makes young children feel superior to them and disparaging of them, rather than excited to learn more and able to recognize our common humanity/identify with them, I'm not sure I'd be able to call it "quality" or a "potential classic" on the same lines that we're discussing here. That's just lazy. And inaccurate. And unimaginative. I don't see any recommendations for that kind of nonsense in the above discussion, fortunately.

 

I actually felt like the point of this discussion was that we all are aware of certain historical contexts, and in these contexts, our beloved and brilliant writers of the past weren't racist, sexist, or otherwise small-minded and mean. The problem is that in our own historical and cultural context, when we present these works to very young children who aren't yet aware or able to fully understand these contexts, this becomes a transmission of the sorts of culture that these authors themselves would probably not cling to or wish to be known for.

 

I think the problem may be that there ARE people who call for the banning of certain books (like Mark Twain's!) for young adults, but that's not what this discussion has been (to my mind). We're talking small children, like my 7 year old who decided she likes using the word "ain't" based upon one of our read-alouds and has been faithfully using it ever since, despite the fact that I told her it's not proper grammar. Little kids imitate what they hear and love trying out new things. They internalize stories and language in many ways. I am all in for deep discussions about historical context and abhor the idea of censorship for older kids. But that's not who this discussion was about-- and that would be a very different discussion, I am sure.

 

The great news is that there are a LOT of wonderful, rich books for children being published today that add to a growing treasure trove of classic children's literature so there's really no need to limit oneself one way or the other. Modern children's lit does not exist in a vacuum!

Edited by fralala
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Last year, the then 5th grader, did several  book reports  Hardy Boys and other books.  His last report was on Matilda, Roald Dahl.  I was surprised that his comment on the book was that he was happy to read about a

 

 poor kid doing exciting things for a change. 

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Although now that I think on it, Secret Garden is really problematic from a disability perspective.

 

Although in this example the "healed disabled child" was not actually disabled. He was mostly infirm due to the mistaken assumption that he was infirm. I haven't read the book recently so perhaps my memory is distorted by the play (which we just saw last month) but dude wasn't ill. It was a case of projected hypochondria, wasn't it?

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Although in this example the "healed disabled child" was not actually disabled. He was mostly infirm due to the mistaken assumption that he was infirm. I haven't read the book recently so perhaps my memory is distorted by the play (which we just saw last month) but dude wasn't ill. It was a case of projected hypochondria, wasn't it?

 

Yes.  I think he had been ill as a child, probably with normal childhood illnesses, and his father and doctor were paranoid that he was delicate. 

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I guess I have a little different take on diversity. Yes, race (and gender) diversity were/are important. But I also looked (and continue to look) for books for my kids that illustrate the consequences of historical events on people who were on different and/or opposite sides of the particular event in question. So, when we were reading the "Little House" series, we also read books (unfortunately, I don't remember the particular title of the one I particularly liked) written from the perspective of a Native American girl who watched pretty much her entire village get decimated from disease, war and movement to a reservation (wasn't as bad as it sounded...somehow it ended on a positive note with her finding a way forward). In middle school we covered assimilation (all about desire for unity, really) vs. the loss of family, culture, connection & identity for many that occurred with the pursuit of said assimilation. 

 

And when we read about the Civil War, it wasn't just "North/South &/or white Northern/ Southern slave" (although those were included), I also included a story about a young, poor Southern girl (who was white) whose father was killed in battle. Her family battled great poverty and hardship, esp. after his death, and they had never owned any slaves to begin with, plus her love for him echoed throughout the story. 

 

My goal (I hopefully succeeded somewhat) was to show that things ASSUMED to be good often weren't to the many people caught in the consequences of those assumptions. And that many good people are often caught in terrible situations, due to nothing more than the culture of the time assumed that whatever collateral damage (not trying to be political here) that happened was worth the pursuit of the glorious-sounding goal. 

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