DH going through breakdown. Support only, please.

[Rosie_0801]

I don't know about anyone else, but that's a pattern of behavior I couldn't deal with even once, let alone every few years. I couldn't be married to a man who did that, no matter what the reason.

 

Comments like that aren't helpful and border on victim shaming.

 

Flip it the other way. What *could* you put up with to retain custody of your children?

 

 

And don't be saying "he couldn't get custody, he's mentally ill and doesn't want them." Because he can always change his mind about that.

[Guest]

Comments like that aren't helpful and border on victim shaming.

 

Flip it the other way. What *could* you put up with to retain custody of your children?

 

 

And don't be saying "he couldn't get custody, he's mentally ill and doesn't want them." Because he can always change his mind about that.

 

In all fairness though, if she's worried about her parents going after custody as well, staying with him only strengthens their case. It's amazing the level of grandparents' rights in some states. It could be seen as leaving the children at risk. It's a lose lose situation he's put her in. 

[bzymom]

Also to keep in mind: untreated manic episodes are like contractions. They tend to increase in intensity, last longer and become closer together.

 

And the end of an episode can be the start of a depression that is equally difficult.

 

I am not trying to discourage you. and I am sorry if it sounds harsh. These are things I wish I had known in time.

[Catwoman]

Comments like that aren't helpful and border on victim shaming.

 

Flip it the other way. What *could* you put up with to retain custody of your children?

 

 

And don't be saying "he couldn't get custody, he's mentally ill and doesn't want them." Because he can always change his mind about that.

I'm sorry, Rosie, but I am most certainly not victim shaming in any way, shape, or form and to be honest, I am offended that you think I would do anything like that. :(

 

I absolutely would not stay with a man who cheated on me. Period. End of story. I could also not be married to a mentally ill man who refused to seek treatment. I am entitled to have that opinion.

 

These are absolutely non-negotiable issues for me. I think it is incredibly unfair to suggest that anyone should remain trapped in a marriage like Moonhawk's and to make her feel that if she separates from her husband, she will lose custody of her children.

 

Let's not forget that her children are also trapped in this terrible home situation. They shouldn't have to deal with living with an untreated mentally ill father. We have no idea whether or not he could become a physical danger to those children, but we certainly know that he must be causing a great deal of emotional distress for them. Even if he isn't overtly upsetting the children, they see their mother hurt, upset, and crying, and that's an awful thing for kids to have to witness over and over again.

 

Sorry, but I stand by my post. Obviously, you can disagree with me.

 

(Edited for clarity - I hope!)

Edited April 25, 2017 by Catwoman

[Rosie_0801]

It is fact that anyone with children who separates from their spouse can lose custody of their children to that spouse. 

 

It is not unfair to point that out. It is an important consideration in planning strategy. It is a safety matter.

[LMD]

*gently* all of that is very easy to say from a distance though, catwoman. No one who has suffered from dv thought that they would stay through violence. Lines get crossed and it's still hard to go.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

NM, seen by intended audience...

Edited April 26, 2017 by Tibbie Dunbar

[Grover]

:grouphug: :grouphug: :grouphug:

[Guest]

I'm sorry, Rosie, but I am most certainly not victim shaming in any way, shape, or form and to be honest, I am offended that you think I would do anything like that. :(

 

I absolutely would not stay with a man who cheated on me. Period. End of story. I could also not be married to a mentally ill man who refused to seek treatment. I am entitled to have that opinion.

 

These are absolutely non-negotiable issues for me. I think it is incredibly unfair to suggest that anyone should remain trapped in a marriage like Moonhawk's and to make her feel that if she separates from her husband, she will lose custody of her children.

 

Let's not forget that her children are also trapped in this terrible home situation. They shouldn't have to deal with living with an untreated mentally ill father. We have no idea whether or not he could become a physical danger to those children, but we certainly know that he must be causing a great deal of emotional distress for them. Even if he isn't overtly upsetting the children, they see their mother hurt, upset, and crying, and that's an awful thing for kids to have to witness over and over again.

 

Sorry, but I stand by my post. Obviously, you can disagree with me.

 

(Edited for clarity - I hope!)

Saying this quietly and gently..

 

What other ppl wouldn't put up with is of no pragmatic consequence to a person in crisis. Op knows no one would love to be cheated on, and to be sure, she knows better than most that living with mental illness sucks in the extreme sometimes.

 

--------

 

(We are all just concerned, op. If my comments aren't helpful, forget they exist!)

[Mergath]

Okay guys, I'm oscillating a lot over here. The kids are gone for a few hours so I have the opportunity to indulge myself in scenarios. I have re-called the lawyer to be moved up, left voicemail.  Same with priest, but he's booked today, so called the Stephen Ministry and they said they'll see if they can get someone to talk to me today. I have to be calm again in 2.5 hours to give enough time for my nose to unredden and pick up kids, so trying to accomplish a lot in the meantime.

 

Options as I see them:

1 - he can agree to stop dating, get more intense treatment, and stay in the house.

2 - he can voluntarily admit himself to a hospital

3 - involuntary admission, but only an option if there is physical threat, and at this point there is no hint of that. 

4 - he can leave the house.

5 - I and kids can leave the house.

 

When these things could happen:

A - tonight, at 9pm (or later) when he comes home

B - tomorrow night, kids would not be in the house

C - Friday night, kids again not in the house

D - at point of crisis, i.e. unplanned.

E - later.

F - crazy right now, I drive up and just confront him. probably not the most reasonable option, ha. 

 

I think with all of these options, I will have to inform his family of the diagnosis and his current behavior either today or tomorrow; basically, I need to tell them before this explodes. Still unsure about how to handle my own family. 

 

:grouphug:  Irt option two, my advice would be to first call the hospital and make sure they have available space for him, or can find a facility that will have an opening. In many places, someone can be in the midst of an actual psychotic break and still get turned away because there are no beds free. Definitely don't cross it off your list, but call ahead and tell the hospital what's going on so they have time to make sure there's a place for him somewhere. Also, ask them to have the police drive him if the facility is out of town. They'll do it here for people being transported to mental health facilities, and it's a much safer option if the only bed is several hours out of town. You don't want to be stuck on the freeway with him somewhere if he becomes violent.

 

Another thing to be prepared for is that he might lie to them. If he hasn't had much in the way of treatment and there's no real record of his being bipolar, it's going to be his word against yours if he changes his mind when you guys get to the hospital. So if he does agree to hospitalization (and that would be a very good thing for him to agree to, because being admitted while he starts new meds will allow them to watch him and will keep him out of trouble) have multiple backup plans in mind just in case.

 

That applies to option three, as well. If he doesn't threaten himself or you in front of a medical professional or admit that he's a danger to himself or others, once again it's his word against yours and they won't be able to keep him against his will. You can call the police if he threatens you though, and don't be afraid to do that if you feel unsafe.

 

If he agrees to get help, don't let him put it off. If there's going to be a wait of more than a few days before he can get in to an actual psychiatrist, first thing tomorrow morning take him to wherever he can get in immediately- your local clinic or whatever- and get him on something. Lithium has the best overall success rate so I'd push for that. Others may disagree and say that he should wait to see an actual psychiatrist, but in my experience it's better that he be on something immediately that might help stabilize him at least enough to keep it together until he can get in to see the psych.

 

[unsinkable]

People living with domestic violence, intimate partner violence, mental illness often do end up like the proverbial frog in the pot, where the water gets turned up gradually and people don't realize it is boiling until it is too late.

 

Sometimes, hearing "hey, this isn't right and it's not normal or OK" can be a wake-up call to jump out of the pot.

 

i don't think saying, "that's not something I'd tolerate" is inappropriate.

[Anne]

Moonhawk ~

 

:grouphug:  :grouphug:  :grouphug:

 

Anne

[Rosie_0801]

People living with domestic violence, intimate partner violence, mental illness often do end up like the proverbial frog in the pot, where the water gets turned up gradually and people don't realize it is boiling until it is too late.

 

Sometimes, hearing "hey, this isn't right and it's not normal or OK" can be a wake-up call to jump out of the pot.

 

i don't think saying, "that's not something I'd tolerate" is inappropriate.

 

"That is not something I'd tolerate" is an opinion one has the right to hold, and not at all helpful when the only options the victim knows how to access is the pot and the fire.

 

That is one of the biggest myths of domestic violence. The perp would have stopped if the victim didn't tolerate it.

 

 

To be safe, the OP needs to plan for stuff she's probably incapable of currently thinking about and certainly doesn't have the answers for. But that won't keep her and her kids safe. Her lawyer won't plan this out if she doesn't ask them to, and probably isn't as qualified in the mental health stuff as other people in this thread.

 

I'd rather cause a bit of pain now by pointing this out than have her three years later wishing someone had told her this could happen. This is support, no matter how ugly it is.

[unsinkable]

"That is not something I'd tolerate" is an opinion one has the right to hold, and not at all helpful when the only options the victim knows how to access is the pot and the fire.

 

That is one of the biggest myths of domestic violence. The perp would have stopped if the victim didn't tolerate it.

 

 

To be safe, the OP needs to plan for stuff she's probably incapable of currently thinking about and certainly doesn't have the answers for. But that won't keep her and her kids safe. Her lawyer won't plan this out if she doesn't ask them to, and probably isn't as qualified in the mental health stuff as other people in this thread.

 

I'd rather cause a bit of pain now by pointing this out than have her three years later wishing someone had told her this could happen. This is support, no matter how ugly it is.

You don't speak for everyone. You don't know what message gets through to each and every victim of IPV.

[Mergath]

I'm sorry, Rosie, but I am most certainly not victim shaming in any way, shape, or form and to be honest, I am offended that you think I would do anything like that. :(

 

I absolutely would not stay with a man who cheated on me. Period. End of story. I could also not be married to a mentally ill man who refused to seek treatment. I am entitled to have that opinion.

 

These are absolutely non-negotiable issues for me. I think it is incredibly unfair to suggest that anyone should remain trapped in a marriage like Moonhawk's and to make her feel that if she separates from her husband, she will lose custody of her children.

 

Let's not forget that her children are also trapped in this terrible home situation. They shouldn't have to deal with living with an untreated mentally ill father. We have no idea whether or not he could become a physical danger to those children, but we certainly know that he must be causing a great deal of emotional distress for them. Even if he isn't overtly upsetting the children, they see their mother hurt, upset, and crying, and that's an awful thing for kids to have to witness over and over again.

 

Sorry, but I stand by my post. Obviously, you can disagree with me.

 

(Edited for clarity - I hope!)

 

It is incredibly unfair, but sadly, it happens more than most of us would like to think about. It's the main reason I stayed with my dh when I was going through something very similar. You have to keep in mind that while a manic episode might be obvious to the spouse, to people who don't know the person well they can seem cheerful, upbeat, and friendly while it's happening, especially if anger isn't a huge component of their particular mania. Mania isn't always as obvious as something like psychosis or severe depression. It's horrifying when you KNOW the person you're married to is off his rocker and down the block, but that it's also really hard for other people to see it. And with the OP's spouse not having much of a record of treatment, it's going to be hard for her to prove that he's mentally ill in court. He can just say she's making it up.

 

I mean, I was at the point (back before my dh found his current med combo) where I thought he was going to kill me during his next manic episode. I really did. But I knew the courts would take one look at our situation- dh, with a full-time, decent-paying, steady job who happened to be bipolar, and me, unemployed and with OCD and epilepsy- and it was going to be a crapshoot. I might get custody, I might not. I couldn't take that risk.

 

Another thing to keep in mind is that they call it bipolar disorder for a reason. When it's untreated, it really is like living with two different people. In my situation, my dh was great when he wasn't manic. It makes the decision even more difficult because you feel like you're abandoning the good part of the person.

 

That's not to say that the OP should stay with him no matter what, of course, but it's a harder decision to make when you're in the middle of it than it seems like it would be from outside. I'm certainly not going to judge regardless of what decision she makes. One of the best things people did for me when I was in the middle of it was to be supportive even when they disagreed with my decisions.

 

ETA: And please, no one take this as advice about what someone in an abuse situation should or shouldn't do. I'm just trying to help explain why people going through it might make decisions that, at first glance, don't seem like a good idea.

Edited April 25, 2017 by Mergath

[FaithManor]

Mergath is spot on.

 

My aunt who has been unmedicated for her bipolar for quite some time has become physically abusive. Sadly, I do believe she is going to kill someone one of these days. But to outsiders during her manic phases, she is delightfully happy, productive, and a favorite with many.

 

OP, you have to be feeling like you have the weight of the world on your shoulders right now. I wish we could all be there in person to lend our support, but since we cannot, we all hope you find it locally.

 

As for his family, I think I would be inclined to let them know tonight yet. Being in the dark about his diagnosis and behavior is not working in your favor IF there is any chance they will help you with the kids, support, finances, pressure on him to get help immediately, etc. Plus you don't want them to find out later and then be angry about being ignorant of the situation. But again, I do not know these people and you do, so ignore this advice if they are the kind of people who will make things worse.

[unsinkable]

Yeah, let's just normalize abuse.

 

That's a better idea.

 

Carry on.

[Jan in SC]

Sorry if I missed this somewhere-

 

Has he given you permission to speak with his psychiatrist? If so, call the person. Even if you don't have the same insurance, talk to the one he saw and ask for help. If your dh filled out the form that you can speak with him/her, that is a resource. In some states, a psychiatrist cannot drop a patient in a crisis without locating another doctor to help.

[bolt.]

Hey, guys, we (collectively) are crossing well over from "support only" to "multiple streams of advice" -- it comes from a good motive, but I'm not sure it's the kind of sheltered place for expressing herself that the OP needs right now.

[maize]

Oh, absolutely call the psychologist before his upcoming appointment and share everything that has been going on.

[Catwoman]

"That is not something I'd tolerate" is an opinion one has the right to hold, and not at all helpful when the only options the victim knows how to access is the pot and the fire.

 

That is one of the biggest myths of domestic violence. The perp would have stopped if the victim didn't tolerate it.

 

 

To be safe, the OP needs to plan for stuff she's probably incapable of currently thinking about and certainly doesn't have the answers for. But that won't keep her and her kids safe. Her lawyer won't plan this out if she doesn't ask them to, and probably isn't as qualified in the mental health stuff as other people in this thread.

 

I'd rather cause a bit of pain now by pointing this out than have her three years later wishing someone had told her this could happen. This is support, no matter how ugly it is.

We will have to agree to disagree. We have no way of knowing that Moonhawk has no options available to her. She has already demonstrated that she has options. She has an appointment with a lawyer. She is seeking counseling. She has posted that there is a limit to how much she is willing to tolerate.

 

Frankly, I think it's a bad idea to advise her that she has no options and that she will lose her children if she separates from her dh. That certainly doesn't happen to most women, and in the United States, the mother is still more likely than the father to get primary custody of the children despite laws which suggest equality.

 

This doesn't appear to be a case of Moonhawk's dh being incredibly wealthy and influential, thus giving him a big edge over her in a custody case, so it would appear that the worst that could happen here would probably be some sort of joint custody arrangement.

 

I'm not sure why you're trying to scare her into staying in a terrible relationship that is harming both her and her children. I know you mean well, but I don't think you are providing her with more "support" than I am.

 

I am not about to tell Moonhawk to stay with her husband on the off-chance that she might lose partial custody of her children. I'm sure Moonhawk's lawyer will advise her about her best course of action, but right now we only know what Moonhawk has shared with us, and I am shocked that anyone would suggest she stay with him based on the awful things she has told us.

[Catwoman]

People living with domestic violence, intimate partner violence, mental illness often do end up like the proverbial frog in the pot, where the water gets turned up gradually and people don't realize it is boiling until it is too late.

 

Sometimes, hearing "hey, this isn't right and it's not normal or OK" can be a wake-up call to jump out of the pot.

 

i don't think saying, "that's not something I'd tolerate" is inappropriate.

Thank you. :)

[Catwoman]

It is fact that anyone with children who separates from their spouse can lose custody of their children to that spouse.

 

It is not unfair to point that out. It is an important consideration in planning strategy. It is a safety matter.

I never suggested that she shouldn't plan her strategy, but it is unlikely that she will lose custody of her children. I'm sure her lawyer will inform her of what she should expect in terms of a joint custody agreement, but it is highly unlikely that he will gain full custody of those children, and I'm not sure why you would try to frighten her into thinking it will probably happen to her if she leaves her husband.

[Catwoman]

It is incredibly unfair, but sadly, it happens more than most of us would like to think about. It's the main reason I stayed with my dh when I was going through something very similar. You have to keep in mind that while a manic episode might be obvious to the spouse, to people who don't know the person well they can seem cheerful, upbeat, and friendly while it's happening, especially if anger isn't a huge component of their particular mania. Mania isn't always as obvious as something like psychosis or severe depression. It's horrifying when you KNOW the person you're married to is off his rocker and down the block, but that it's also really hard for other people to see it. And with the OP's spouse not having much of a record of treatment, it's going to be hard for her to prove that he's mentally ill in court. He can just say she's making it up.

 

I mean, I was at the point (back before my dh found his current med combo) where I thought he was going to kill me during his next manic episode. I really did. But I knew the courts would take one look at our situation- dh, with a full-time, decent-paying, steady job who happened to be bipolar, and me, unemployed and with OCD and epilepsy- and it was going to be a crapshoot. I might get custody, I might not. I couldn't take that risk.

 

Another thing to keep in mind is that they call it bipolar disorder for a reason. When it's untreated, it really is like living with two different people. In my situation, my dh was great when he wasn't manic. It makes the decision even more difficult because you feel like you're abandoning the good part of the person.

 

That's not to say that the OP should stay with him no matter what, of course, but it's a harder decision to make when you're in the middle of it than it seems like it would be from outside. I'm certainly not going to judge regardless of what decision she makes. One of the best things people did for me when I was in the middle of it was to be supportive even when they disagreed with my decisions.

 

ETA: And please, no one take this as advice about what someone in an abuse situation should or shouldn't do. I'm just trying to help explain why people going through it might make decisions that, at first glance, don't seem like a good idea.

As far as I know, Moonhawk has no history of physical or mental illness, so even if she was unable to document that her dh is mentally ill (although I thought she said he had a diagnosis and some history of treatment -- but I could be remembering incorrectly,) they should still be on an even playing field in terms of custody. Because her children are so young, she would most likely have an advantage because as I understand it, many judges are still very hesitant to take young children away from their mothers.

 

Whatever the case, she is seeking legal counsel and will hopefully have more information soon so she can make the best decision for herself and her children. I'm very glad to hear she is seeing the lawyer and is also seeking some counseling for herself.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

Nobody said to stay! The cautious and battle scarred people say to move carefully and know the pitfalls, do all the research and don't make mistakes. Nobody said this is normal and that all women have to stay. Nobody. The BTDT side has been about assessing risk, not about normalizing abuse.

 

There have been too many reminders, even on these forums, that those who haven't lived with this in their family are not going to understand. If anyone ever needs to talk about it, I suggest starting a private group or a private message thread with those who have weighed in with actual personal experience.

[Rosie_0801]

I never suggested that she shouldn't plan her strategy, but it is unlikely that she will lose custody of her children. I'm sure her lawyer will inform her of what she should expect in terms of a joint custody agreement, but it is highly unlikely that he will gain full custody of those children, and I'm not sure why you would try to frighten her into thinking it will probably happen to her if she leaves her husband.

 

I'm not sure why you persist in misrepresenting what I've said, but there's nothing I can do about it and most people here need to be done with this. Btw, you might check your pm box when you have a moment.

[zoobie]

I never suggested that she shouldn't plan her strategy, but it is unlikely that she will lose custody of her children. I'm sure her lawyer will inform her of what she should expect in terms of a joint custody agreement, but it is highly unlikely that he will gain full custody of those children, and I'm not sure why you would try to frighten her into thinking it will probably happen to her if she leaves her husband.

For some people, allowing any unsupervised contact is beyond what they're comfortable with. Any sort of shared custody would be inconceivable. You don't have to be rich and influential either. Kinsa's sister's ex-h isn't. Staying in a miserable situation sometimes is the best thing one can do. :(

[Catwoman]

*gently* all of that is very easy to say from a distance though, catwoman. No one who has suffered from dv thought that they would stay through violence. Lines get crossed and it's still hard to go.

  

Saying this quietly and gently..

What other ppl wouldn't put up with is of no pragmatic consequence to a person in crisis. Op knows no one would love to be cheated on, and to be sure, she knows better than most that living with mental illness sucks in the extreme sometimes.

--------

(We are all just concerned, op. If my comments aren't helpful, forget they exist!)

Sometimes a person in crisis is unable or unwilling to face the full reality of their situation. I don't think it's a bad thing for them to hear what other people would do if faced with a similar situation. Certainly, Moonhawk doesn't have to do what I would do, but I see no reason why she shouldn't hear several different perspectives on her situation. I have already posted that she should do what she believes is best for her and her children, but I don't think it's helpful for her to only hear that if she leaves her husband, she will lose custody of her kids, or that she should stay with her husband and hope that he eventually gets treatment for his mental illness.

 

I was trying to empower her, not frighten her or crush her spirit.

[Catwoman]

For some people, allowing any unsupervised contact is beyond what they're comfortable with. Any sort of shared custody would be inconceivable. You don't have to be rich and influential either. Kinsa's sister's ex-h isn't. Staying in a miserable situation sometimes is the best thing one can do. :(

The thing is, we don't know that it's the best thing she can do. I would hate to see her read the posts here and decide that all hope is lost and she is destined for a life of misery with a cheating, mentally ill spouse.

 

We don't know that she is against the idea of any unsupervised contact. We don't know what she's expecting or what she's hoping for.

 

We do know that she's seeing a lawyer, and hopefully the lawyer will be able to provide her with the information she needs in order to make a decision.

[Catwoman]

I'm not sure why you persist in misrepresenting what I've said, but there's nothing I can do about it and most people here need to be done with this. Btw, you might check your pm box when you have a moment.

I'm sorry if I misunderstood you, Rosie. I know you are only trying to help Moonhawk, as am I, even if we're approaching the situation from very different perspectives.

 

I hope nothing I posted hurt your feelings, as I would never intentionally do that. But if I did, I'm so sorry.

 

Thank you for your PM. I really appreciated it. :grouphug:

[lmrich]

:grouphug:  and strength!

[cintinative]

I was just skimming through this thread, so I am sure I missed some things.  OP, I am praying for you for wisdom. It is such a hard situation and I am so very sorry you and the kids have to deal with it.  I pray that the Stephen minister is a great sounding board for you and a safe place for you to share all your hurt and brokenness over this. 

 

It can be lost in all the advice on here, but I hope I speak for everyone on here when I say--we are FOR you and your kids.  

 

Praying for your comfort and peace in this storm.

[Catwoman]

I was just skimming through this thread, so I am sure I missed some things. OP, I am praying for you for wisdom. It is such a hard situation and I am so very sorry you and the kids have to deal with it. I pray that the Stephen minister is a great sounding board for you and a safe place for you to share all your hurt and brokenness over this.

 

It can be lost in all the advice on here, but I hope I speak for everyone on here when I say--we are FOR you and your kids.

 

Praying for your comfort and peace in this storm.

:iagree:

 

Even though some of us may differ on the approach and the details, I truly believe that we all have Moonhawk's happiness and best interests at heart.

 

It seems that others disagree with me on this, but I think it's a good thing that she is hearing many different perspectives on her situation. She can use or discard any of our opinions as she sees fit.

 

But ultimately, she is the one who will know what is the best decision for herself and her children. I'm confident that she will make the right choice.

[LMD]

 

Sometimes a person in crisis is unable or unwilling to face the full reality of their situation. I don't think it's a bad thing for them to hear what other people would do if faced with a similar situation. Certainly, Moonhawk doesn't have to do what I would do, but I see no reason why she shouldn't hear several different perspectives on her situation. I have already posted that she should do what she believes is best for her and her children, but I don't think it's helpful for her to only hear that if she leaves her husband, she will lose custody of her kids, or that she should stay with her husband and hope that he eventually gets treatment for his mental illness.

 

I was trying to empower her, not frighten her or crush her spirit.

I understand where you're coming from catwoman, and I do believe that you are genuine in your care.

But you are saying what you *think* you would do in that situation. Those of us who have been in similar situations are telling you that it isn't that cut or dried or easy.

Helping her to see with clarity is empowering. Should-ing (or 'I would'-ing) at her is patronising.

[Scarlett]

I was away for several hours and read all the responses at one time. It was easy to see that we all have our own perspective based upon our life experience. I think it is important for Moonhawk to have hope for the future---feeling trapped is the worst. We all have our own tipping point. I am sure many of you would not have tolerated what I did from xh...I put up with stuff I didn't want to because I felt by staying I better controlled my sons environment. I still feel that way and I am not sorry for staying. But there was a tipping point.....everyone has that point. So Moonhawk you have yours and know we support you as you reach that point..,even those of us who are strongly pro marriage know there are limits to what any human cna take.

[myfunnybunch]

((Moonhawk))

 

I am so sad you're facing this. You may not feel this way right now, but you sound so brave and strong and willing to keep yourself and your children safe. You can face this, whatever comes your way.

 

When you get a chance to focus on something beyond the immediate, some ongoing counseling might help you sort through some of this. It has been invaluable for me--providing some stability and a place to share things I don't feel comfortable sharing with people in the "real world." Sorting through it all is going to take time and be an ongoing process, but you will know when it's time to get to do that.

 

Love and prayers.

[jewellsmommy]

People living with domestic violence, intimate partner violence, mental illness often do end up like the proverbial frog in the pot, where the water gets turned up gradually and people don't realize it is boiling until it is too late.

 

Sometimes, hearing "hey, this isn't right and it's not normal or OK" can be a wake-up call to jump out of the pot.

 

i don't think saying, "that's not something I'd tolerate" is inappropriate.

 

This is so so accurate! 

 

Op,This is not meant to tell you what you should do -not a lesson or anything like that. This is just my experience of living with an extreme situation and making it work. We were incredibly desperate to make a normal family and great life for ds in our home. Every curve ball he threw, we did not stop and ask, "should we adjust to this?" No, of course not!  You just adjusted, you find a workable solution and create a new normal because this is your family. This is your life. God had called us to this! We did this for 5 years, always adjusting, accommodating, adapting our way to a new normal. Always saying that a milestone was around the corner! A new med, a new therapist, a new system. We have mitigated all the dangers. We have buffered dd from the damage.  It wasn't until I could no longer deny the changes in dd, dh, and myself that I knew we had adapted a few too many times.

 

But it really hit home when I had to give a detailed history to a new therapist. I sheepishly wrapped it up by saying something like, "but I'm sure you've heard all this before." (or something along those lines) After a long pause the therapist says to me, " No. I haven't. I'm going to say this as gently as possible and with all respect. My dear, your life as strayed so far from anything resembling normal that I don't think you'd know normal if you saw it. And I say this as someone who doesn't even use that word usually. But it applies here."

 

I was floored! It took me a good week to process her statement. I scoffed at first. I said, I must not have explained myself well etc. Then I realized she was so right. One step at a time...and then you're a mile off course. All it took was one good day to make me doubt that the other 364 had even existed. Were they really even that bad? Yes, they were.

 

ETA: in case my signature is confusing, we are still guardians to ds, but he is not physically in our home.

Edited April 26, 2017 by jewellsmommy

[Moonhawk]

Hi everyone.  Looks like I missed the excitement. :)  I know you are all coming from a place of caring, I will not take offense to anything said. 

 

I'm sorry to those who have gone through something similar, if it is bringing up bad memories again, but I appreciate learning from your experience.

 

I'm not quoting people, but a few thoughts that I want to address:

- As obvious as it is to us that he is pushing me towards unhappy measures, that could end in divorce, I sincerely do not believe he understands this. It doesn't absolve him from responsibility, but I need to take it into consideration when I'm planning my own moves. If I want my end game won, I can't lose sight of the playing field.

- I am certain, and don't want to explain the exact way I am certain, he is not currently in a sexual relationship with someone, and has not been in the past.

- I am certain it was his first date with this person, and he has not met with anyone else. The infidelity in thought and texting has been there, but it is not more than I have stated. Cold comfort right now, but the truth, not wishful thinking on my part.

- I know he will continue to escalate things to sexual relationship(s) unless things change, and unfortunately I can't create the change required. He'll need to come to it himself, and soon.

- I called his mom and told her.  I feel really really wretched doing this, it feels like a betrayal of trust. Maybe it makes it more real. But I know that it is necessary and we are past the whole betrayal thing (ha, to put it mildly), and my vows didn't explicitly state that I shalt not tell thy mother of thine mental illness. 

- Stephen Ministry was good. First time meeting them but it turns out I knew the people well already from my parish, so they were sympathetic, already know my kids, and generally know my husband. So it was good to talk to someone who has seen us in Mass every week for the past 8 years, and me longer, and has interacted with DH when he's stable. 

 

I think those were the main areas that needed clarity and updating. Oh, and thanks for the advice re: making sure there is room somewhere for him if he agrees to admit himself. Thank you all so so much for everything. I'm glad I reached out when and where I did, it is making all the difference in my confidence to handle this to best of my ability. 

[Seasider]

I hope that one day soon, whatever transpires, that your dh fully appreciates what a gem you are, and acknowledges that you gave him the fairest shot possible at a good outcome despite very difficult circumstances. I have immeasurable respect for your rational, kind thoughts and actions.

[Reefgazer]

I would still be very cautious about this.  My friend's ex went to stay at his mom's one night and intended to file separation papers.  My friend changed the locks on the doors that night, and the judge wouldn't allow him to return unaccompanied because he "had a place to live and had left".  The way a judge interprets a vacation could not be in her favor, especially if the left spouse lies about that.

On the leaving versus him to leave, and jeopardizing assets......you can "leave" without technically legally leaving. There's nothing legally that says you can't take the kids on a mini vacation to get away from an unstable person during an episode or mental lapse, or whatever you want to call it. In that case you wouldn't technically be leaving him with the house. You would be on a trip. Which would give you time to talk to your lawyer and to breathe away from the craziness. You're not leaving a dramatic leaving note. You're not telling him you're separating. You're taking a small trip to see Aunt Lila or whoever you can. Then if your lawyer advises you need to stay in the house, you return from your trip and then have the difficult conversation. That's pretty much all I have to add- you getting space and away from him doesn't need to entail a legal vulnerability towards future separation or divorce. Plenty of people go on short trips without a spouse. If you mentioned it to him and he somehow forgot, that's on him, if you get what I'm saying. 

 

Huge hugs to you. I'm so sorry and will be praying for you and your family. 

 

[Catwoman]

People living with domestic violence, intimate partner violence, mental illness often do end up like the proverbial frog in the pot, where the water gets turned up gradually and people don't realize it is boiling until it is too late.

Sometimes, hearing "hey, this isn't right and it's not normal or OK" can be a wake-up call to jump out of the pot.

i don't think saying, "that's not something I'd tolerate" is inappropriate.

  

This is so so accurate! 

 

Op,This is not meant to tell you what you should do -not a lesson or anything like that. This is just my experience of living with an extreme situation and making it work. We were incredibly desperate to make a normal family and great life for ds in our home. Every curve ball he threw, we did not stop and ask, "should we adjust to this?" No, of course not!  You just adjusted, you find a workable solution and create a new normal because this is your family. This is your life. God had called us to this! We did this for 5 years, always adjusting, accommodating, adapting our way to a new normal. Always saying that a milestone was around the corner! A new med, a new therapist, a new system. We have mitigated all the dangers. We have buffered dd from the damage.  It wasn't until I could no longer deny the changes in dd, dh, and myself that I knew we had adapted a few too many times.

 

But it really hit home when I had to give a detailed history to a new therapist. I sheepishly wrapped it up by saying something like, "but I'm sure you've heard all this before." (or something along those lines) After a long pause the therapist says to me, " No. I haven't. I'm going to say this as gently as possible and with all respect. My dear, your life as strayed so far from anything resembling normal that I don't think you'd know normal if you saw it. And I say this as someone who doesn't even use that word usually. But it applies here."

 

I was floored! It took me a good week to process her statement. I scoffed at first. I said, I must not have explained myself well etc. Then I realized she was so right. One step at a time...and then you're a mile off course. All it took was one good day to make me doubt that the other 364 had even existed. Were they really even that bad? Yes, they were.

 

ETA: in case my signature is confusing, we are still guardians to ds, but he is not physically in our home.

I agree with everything unsinkable and jewelsmommy posted. After you have lived a certain way for a long time, it's so easy to rationalize that your life is normal and that plenty of other people are having the same experiences you're having and they are tolerating and accepting those terrible things, so you should, too. Sometimes I honestly do believe that hearing a neutral third party say, "This isn't right and other people don't live like this," may get a person thinking that maybe there are alternatives available to them and that they don't have to spend the rest of their lives in a miserable situation.

 

In Moonhawk's case, it might mean that she ends up leaving her dh, but it might also be that she convinces him that he needs therapy and medications for his mental illness and their marriage ends up surviving and eventually thriving. It really doesn't matter which choice she makes, whether it's one of the two I just mentioned or something completely different, as long as it's what is best for her and her family. I am very encouraged by the amount of progress she has made in the short time since she started this thread, and she seems more confident in the idea of exploring all of her options. The overall tone of her posts has definitely changed since she started the thread and I am so hopeful that she will remain strong and brave and that she won't let her dh get away with trying to intimidate her into agreeing to a lifestyle she doesn't want to live.

[Stibalfamily]

OP I am so very sorry you are walking through this right now. I will be praying that you DH is open to help and change. I can see that God has made you a strong woman. I am reminded of a Bible verse, Exodus 17:12, "But Moses’ hands were heavy. Then they took a stone and put it under him, and he sat on it; and Aaron and Hur supported his hands, one on one side and one on the other. Thus his hands were steady until the sun set." I pray that those around you will hold you up when you are tired and that you feel supported and loved. Don't be afraid to ask for help and seek out support. You do not deserve this and its not anything that you have done. I will continue to pray for you and your family. May God hold you up during this time. 

[Catwoman]

Hi everyone. Looks like I missed the excitement. :) I know you are all coming from a place of caring, I will not take offense to anything said.

 

I'm sorry to those who have gone through something similar, if it is bringing up bad memories again, but I appreciate learning from your experience.

 

I'm not quoting people, but a few thoughts that I want to address:

- As obvious as it is to us that he is pushing me towards unhappy measures, that could end in divorce, I sincerely do not believe he understands this. It doesn't absolve him from responsibility, but I need to take it into consideration when I'm planning my own moves. If I want my end game won, I can't lose sight of the playing field.

- I am certain, and don't want to explain the exact way I am certain, he is not currently in a sexual relationship with someone, and has not been in the past.

- I am certain it was his first date with this person, and he has not met with anyone else. The infidelity in thought and texting has been there, but it is not more than I have stated. Cold comfort right now, but the truth, not wishful thinking on my part.

- I know he will continue to escalate things to sexual relationship(s) unless things change, and unfortunately I can't create the change required. He'll need to come to it himself, and soon.

- I called his mom and told her. I feel really really wretched doing this, it feels like a betrayal of trust. Maybe it makes it more real. But I know that it is necessary and we are past the whole betrayal thing (ha, to put it mildly), and my vows didn't explicitly state that I shalt not tell thy mother of thine mental illness.

- Stephen Ministry was good. First time meeting them but it turns out I knew the people well already from my parish, so they were sympathetic, already know my kids, and generally know my husband. So it was good to talk to someone who has seen us in Mass every week for the past 8 years, and me longer, and has interacted with DH when he's stable.

 

I think those were the main areas that needed clarity and updating. Oh, and thanks for the advice re: making sure there is room somewhere for him if he agrees to admit himself. Thank you all so so much for everything. I'm glad I reached out when and where I did, it is making all the difference in my confidence to handle this to best of my ability.

Thank you for the update, Moonhawk! I appreciate your detailed replies to our speculations and I am incredibly relieved to hear that you are certain your dh hasn't slept with anyone else yet. I was very worried about that -- the "dating" thing still disgusts me, but knowing that there's no chance you could have contracted any diseases from your dh is a big relief.

 

You are stuck in a situation that none of us would ever wish on anyone, yet you are handling the situation remarkably well, and I admire your courage and determination very much. :hurray:

 

I'm glad your meeting with the Stephen Ministry went so well, and I wish you the very best when you meet with the lawyer. :grouphug:

Edited April 26, 2017 by Catwoman

[Liz CA]

I am glad you were able to seek advice and also share the situation with family members. This is not a journey you can walk alone.

[Melissa in Australia]

You continue to be in my thoughts

 

Hugs

[Melissa in Australia]

You continue to be in my thoughts

 

Hugs

[displace]

Hugs

[FaithManor]

Good morning, Moonhawk. Much love from me to you today and lots of hugs.

[bolt.]

Prayers for you as you face today.

 

Remember that your "line" is allowed to change, and also that once he has crossed a "line" does not mean you have to act in a precipitous rush based on his timings. Your response can come at any time. Be strategic.

[maize]

Thinking of you this morning. I hope the day brings some clarity and forward progress.