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Ugh! We CANNOT decide between early ft college and regular high school path....


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My son would have to go to the CC that is kinda far enough away, with serious traffic, to make it a pretty real issue to get him there and back until he drives himself.  The other CC nearby, does not have the stuff he would need to transfer for his major...

 

We could make this decision at any time, so if we decide not to this year I can revisit again and again...each year.

 

Pros to doing homeschool at home:

Less driving

won't need his own car (and won't get one because we would need to save that money for university!) 

more time to mature

more stability.  (We moved three times in 4 years, one of ht moves being a major cross country move. I think him staying home and doing the same outsourced stuff, would be nice for stability.)

Enter college as a freshman and whatever social or research pluses that entails.

He has a great SAT score, as a freshman, so it is very likely he could get into a good school, though probably not scholarships because of how highly competitive our area is.

Safer from influence of whoever is at the CC

 

Pros to going to CC early:

More intellectual challenge- yes I know that CC first year courses are basic, but he's really not being challenged at all in his current outsourced local classes (to the point of the instructor asking him not to talk at all, because he is the only one doing the work and therefore the only one discussing, and instructor is hoping the other kids will come out of their shell more if he doesn't answer anything..but of course most of them won't answer because they really aren't doing the work)  So far none of the online classes have been a challenge either...math is always his only challenge....

Head start on Real Life - both my husband and I were "old souls" for our age and it caused problems in some ways, when you're living the life of a child but more ready to be out in the world and taking on the next phase

Will be able to get his own car (which is both a plus and minus but mostly a plus, as, in our belief it's good for those who are ready to drive themselves, as scary as it is for us)

Robotics club, Christian club, and some other technology possibilities he doesn't have currently

The pride of earning credits

 The 60,000.00 he will save over those two years at a UC 

 

If I ask him, he really doesn't have much thought one way or another.  He hesitates on the college idea because he likes the idea of having more time to solidify his study skills.  He doesn't want to be in classes with people who don't care much about their education or barely made it out of high school.  I am pretty sure he'd test into "Pre-Calculus with Trig" which is a college level course high enough that I don't think people who almost flunked high school, will be in it.   (Regentrude, does this sound correct?)

 

He loves to discuss things, and the online class scenario hampers that.  And, he is so far ahead of the kids at the local homeschool class center it's almost unbelievable.  Even my dd, whom I consider to be the less "deep" and brainy of the two (though more artistic and clever)...is in the same position of being absolutely light years ahead of almost her entire class in every class she takes.  We LOVE this place for the social aspect but honestly, not the academics.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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If I ask him, he really doesn't have much thought one way or another.  He hesitates on the college idea because he likes the idea of having more time to solidify his study skills.  He doesn't want to be in classes with people who don't care much about their education or barely made it out of high school.  I am pretty sure he'd test into "Pre-Calculus with Trig" which is a college level course high enough that I don't think people who almost flunked high school, will be in it.   (Regentrude, does this sound correct?)

 

It's better than a remedial class but it's still really high school level material. So it's going to be focusing heavily on teaching unmotivated (edit: math-disliking would probably be better than unmotivated, they want to pass the course, they just tend to be math-phobic) students the minimum for them to be able to scrape through a calculus class. He would really be much better off with a decent online precalculus class. I can't cover anywhere near as much in one semester as someone like Derek Owens can cover in a full year. 

 

That being said, if that's what necessary for him to get challenged in literally every other class, I'd probably go for it. This would apply especially if he's not looking at a STEM major. 

 

But what I'd consider instead (assuming that they let him retake the placement test after a year) is enrolling in 12cr including only 3 real classes, and taking the precalculus class from an online provider, and then retaking the math placement test after that. This would apply especially if he IS looking at a STEM major. Even if he can't retake it, he should be able to briefly study for the CLEP precalc after that, and I just think he'd get more knowledge that way. 

Edited by kiana
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We're looking at early admit + continued home school for next year.  That way, there's no impact to long-range options: since we haven't graduated him, he'd be taking courses while in high school, allowing him to enroll at a 4-year institution as a freshman on normal timelines.  The only difference would be the 100-odd hours of credit he'd have to sift through (some schools have transfer limits, others simply minimum residency requirements).

 

An interesting perk we have discovered: while some (few) unis do not accept DE credits required for high school graduation, the same is not true for early admit credits.  They weren't required, so they transfer...

 

If anyone knows firsthand of an exceptional case, we'd love to hear, but we've spoken to several admissions counselors and gotten the same answer each time.

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It's better than a remedial class but it's still really high school level material. So it's going to be focusing heavily on teaching unmotivated students the minimum for them to be able to scrape through a calculus class. He would really be much better off with a decent online precalculus class. I can't cover anywhere near as much in one semester as someone like Derek Owens can cover in a full year. 

 

That being said, if that's what necessary for him to get challenged in literally every other class, I'd probably go for it. This would apply especially if he's not looking at a STEM major. 

 

But what I'd consider instead (assuming that they let him retake the placement test after a year) is enrolling in 12cr including only 3 real classes, and taking the precalculus class from an online provider, and then retaking the math placement test after that. This would apply especially if he IS looking at a STEM major. Even if he can't retake it, he should be able to briefly study for the CLEP precalc after that, and I just think he'd get more knowledge that way. 

 

Thank you!! This is huge, because he is looking to be a STEM Major (COmp Sci) at a major U in a very highly competitive area....

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But, why would an unmotivated student want to take Calculus at all?  Wouldn't those unmotivated students not even take Calculus?  

 

I edited.

 

They're usually wanna-be doctors, vets, or engineers who are attracted by the payscale and/or the "but I want to help people/animals" (second more common with vets -- especially a large amount of people think they're going to be small animal vets, where it's hugely hard to get admitted), so they are taking the classes that you're required to take, but they're really quite unprepared and not that interested in math. They do want to pass, though -- they're not usually the "13th grade" students that you see at lower levels. That's why I said that it was nowhere near as bad. 

 

But if what he's doing at home is working great as far as math and challenging him I'd much prefer that. 

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Pros to going to CC early:

More intellectual challenge- yes I know that CC first year courses are basic, but he's really not being challenged at all in his current outsourced local classes (to the point of the instructor asking him not to talk at all, because he is the only one doing the work and therefore the only one discussing, and instructor is hoping the other kids will come out of their shell more if he doesn't answer anything..but of course most of them won't answer because they really aren't doing the work)  So far none of the online classes have been a challenge either...math is always his only challenge....

 

 

If I ask him, he really doesn't have much thought one way or another.  He hesitates on the college idea because he likes the idea of having more time to solidify his study skills. 

 

I would say that a third option is to find online courses that WILL intellectually challenge him. My son has taken several very challenging and interactive classes. I would find it a waste of my money if my son is not allowed to answer questions because the other students aren't bothering to do the work. There are other choices out there.

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FWIW, my DD is finding CC students to be highly motivated, but weakly prepared.

 

What both DW and I found, as well.  Typically, the kids at CC who don't care don't bother to show up. 

 

CC instructors are also highly focused on instruction, and will devote extra time to almost any student who expresses interest.  It's one of the really positive sides of going to a CC.  That kind of small-group teaching is not available for first- and second-year cohorts at big unis.

 

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What both DW and I found, as well.  Typically, the kids at CC who don't care don't bother to show up. 

 

CC instructors are also highly focused on instruction, and will devote extra time to almost any student who expresses interest.  It's one of the really positive sides of going to a CC.  That kind of small-group teaching is not available for first- and second-year cohorts at big unis.

Thank you so much for expanding on this thought....it really added a lot !

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I would say that a third option is to find online courses that WILL intellectually challenge him. My son has taken several very challenging and interactive classes. I would find it a waste of my money if my son is not allowed to answer questions because the other students aren't bothering to do the work. There are other choices out there.

I hear ya- but he needs some human interaction. So thus the mix of the local Class and online- I do think his current online lineup from Potters School is more challenging :)

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The need for interaction is why we're doing concurrent CC and Homeschool enrollment. The fact is, we could find equivalent or better classes online-but people to sit with in the cafeteria and practice Spanish, or who come early and discuss the state of the public education system, or who need help with their teen daughter's math homework....not so much.

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This is huge, because he is looking to be a STEM Major (COmp Sci) at a major U in a very highly competitive area....

Have you look at your son doing the prerequisites at community college as a dual enroll high school student?

E.g. from UCB https://eecs.berkeley.edu/resources/undergrads/cs/transfer-prereqs

"While there are only 3 prerequisite courses required to declare the major, there are additional lower division courses (listed below) required for the CS major. To be minimally prepared for this major, you should have completed equivalents of at least Math 1A, 1B, and Math 54 at your community college.

 

Lower Division Requirements:

 

Math 1A (Calculus)

Math 1B (Calculus)

Math 54 (Linear Algebra and Differential Equations)

CS 61A/61AS (Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs)

CS 61B/61BL (Data Structures)

CS 61C (Machine Structures)

CS 70 (Discrete Mathematics and Probability Theory)

EE 16A (Designing Information Devices and Systems 1)

 

You should assume that your first semester will be spent completing technical requirements that you were unable to take at your community college. In some cases, it will take 2 semesters to do this. Since admissions decisions for this major will be based on the technical prerequisites taken at Berkeley, it is important that you maximize your potential for doing well."

Edited by Arcadia
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But, why would an unmotivated student want to take Calculus at all?  Wouldn't those unmotivated students not even take Calculus?  

 

Just another perspective that I don't think has been shared: some 18 year olds are at CC and even 40 year olds not because they are unmotivated or remedial.  It comes down to the realities of their lives. My daughter took one DE class (all others were AP and much better fit for her).  Her experience with students there is mixed.  Some are in fact unmotivated and others are engaged. 

 

In terms of early college question, DD did not want to pursue early college so that ended conversation.  She is very happy with her decision, was engaged and greatly enjoyed AP course work with me here and with outside providers. There are great options either way.  For us, AP course work has been the best fit with research opportunities and mentoring at local university.

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Why not do a mix? One or two live classes, some challenging online classes.

Also, why does he have to take all outsourced classes? Why not actually do a homeschooled course at a level that challenges him, and get validation if you have to via subject SAT or AP test?

 

I would not take any math at CC if he is interested in a STEM field. 

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  He doesn't want to be in classes with people who don't care much about their education or barely made it out of high school.  I am pretty sure he'd test into "Pre-Calculus with Trig" which is a college level course high enough that I don't think people who almost flunked high school, will be in it.   (Regentrude, does this sound correct?)

 

 

No - this is a high school level course which strong students would have taken in 11th grade.

Students who take it at the CC will be weak math students who were ineligible to take it in high school, or who did but flunked the placement test, and whose major requires precalc or calc.

 

I would not send a strong math student to take any such classes. He would be much better off learning at home.

Edited by regentrude
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Don't judge CC students as all being unmotivated. Our experience has been that the students are engaged and motivated; just poor or middle-class and trying to save on the cost of the general education classes.

 

The quality of the instruction is high, but you have to know your own school.

 

Quality of instruction and level of classes (which are two unrelated things) varies tremendously between colleges.

Also, the fact that there is an articulation  agreement that guarantees transfer does not mean the classes are remotely equivalent.

 

We have many students at our uni who take their calculus at CC; they tell me it's because the course is so.much.easier. They may pass with a higher grade, but they learn a lot less.

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Quality of instruction and level of classes (which are two unrelated things) varies tremendously between colleges.

Also, the fact that there is an articulation  agreement that guarantees transfer does not mean the classes are remotely equivalent.

 

We have many students at our uni who take their calculus at CC; they tell me it's because the course is so.much.easier. They may pass with a higher grade, but they learn a lot less.

 

+1 for this.

 

I have people transfer in to our university who took college algebra at a CC and got a decent grade. They sign up for the precalculus class that I teach. They almost uniformly cannot factor even linear or quadratic polynomials or graph a straight line.

 

There is an articulation agreement so we have to accept it, but honestly almost everyone ends up either changing their major to one that doesn't require precalculus, retaking college algebra, or taking precalculus twice. 

 

 We also see the problem with the people who transfer in their "math for teachers" and come in with 8 credits of "math for teachers" with good grades and can't add fractions. 

 

It isn't even so much the CC's fault because they are under a massive amount of pressure from the state to get people through with their AA's, because the push-em-through culture is moving to college now :(

 

The CC my brother went to, on the other hand, was excellent and he was able to do just fine at an excellent university after their preparatory classes. 

 

CC's vary. See if you can find former students who transferred to a university in a STEM program and did well. 

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I may have missed this in an earlier post, but why are the only two choices full time early college or staying home? Does your state not offer dual enrollment so that he can retain his freshman status and choose whether to go full or part time?

 

I would ask around locally about the quality of the math classes at the CC, ours are good and the students feed into the state flagship without issue.

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This is what my friend who has graduated 6 children (all of them went the early college route).  Never take classes at a CC that would be in a future major at a regular university.  A lot of colleges want the student to take all of their classes for their major at the college/university they are going to.  That may or may not apply to you.  My son has a guaranteed transfer from the CC to any state college he attends.  

 

Also, there are plenty of places that offer dual credit online.  Bellhaven, Bryan college, Northwestern college in Minneapolis (all Christian colleges).  These are half priced credits so you still pay, but not as much.  Our CC also offers online classes.  We are fortunate here.  The CC my son is going to feeds from a Charter school in the same campus so a lot of students are the highly motivated high school students.  The other large population of students there are homeschool students.  

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No - this is a high school level course which strong students would have taken in 11th grade.

Students who take it at the CC will be weak math students who were ineligible to take it in high school, or who did but flunked the placement test, and whose major requires precalc or calc.

 

I would not send a strong math student to take any such classes. He would be much better off learning at home.

 

Yeah, Kiana said the same thing...so...I definitely trust you guys.  I want him to have a great math foundation so that pretty much settles it for me for this year at least.

 

The reason that he can't take just a few (DE) is that our colleges here are impacted by foreign millionairs who send their kids by the thousands (literally) to live with aunts/uncles/cousins/anyone, and take classes and then transfer.  They are also impacted by the usual state issue of illegals, and on top of all of that we just live in an area where the CC's are very good....so....DE students will NOT get ANY classes unless they are very high level (they don't even get Calc sometimes), or unless they are unusual (DE students have been known to get Japanese or some arts classes such as Guitar) because they are the lowest as far as seniority.

 

So, the word on the block is that of our 3 good/great CC's, you can't DE...I know tons and tons and tons of homeschool parents that attest to this. It is a fruitless endeavor.  Now, my son could possibly DE at the CC nearby our house, but then his credits may not transfer properly to the good CC, should he ever decide to go there.  And the CC by my house, doesn't have what he needs for COmp Sci.  This CC specializes in automotive, if that gives you any idea.

Edited by Calming Tea
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Thank you so much.  This completely settles it for me.  I want my son to have a great math background, and I do NOT want him to take Pre-Calc if that's going to be breezed through to get the kids through, like Kiana and Reg are saying.  Rifght now he doubles up on Saxon Math and Mathnasium and together, it's like magic.  He loves Mathnasium and of course he hates Saxon but whatever.  When you score almost 700 on your SAT as a freshman, I guess we're doing something right.  LOL 

 

We will stay the course at least for this next year and then reconsider again, depending on his desires.  The Automotive CC has a reputation for their math department being surprisingly good so maybe he can take a few DE there senior year or Physics or something like that just to get out of hte house and get a feel for college.  

 

But even if he decides on early college, at least he will have finished PreCalc/Trig at home (and with Mathnasium) and received an awesome foundation.  

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I disagree with never take classes in your major. For STEM focused kids, that would mean arriving at the four year school with all the gen eds, leaving schedules packed with math, science and engineering labs, and nothing for a change of pace or a break.

 

In addition, the first classes at a CC should be classes in an area of strength, to help make sure it's a confidence-building experience.

 

The CC has lists of classes as recommended preparation for various majors. One kid did some from that list and some of her random interests, and the other kid is following the transfer associates plan. Neither has avoided classes in a future major.

 

Not all of kid #1's classes transferred, because she went to a private school that limits the amount of early college credits they accept. The other one is looking at a number of public universities that may actually accept all the credits. Those that don't give credit can give placement into the next class.

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Our state has an entire website where you just plug in the major, and the two colleges transferring to and from and it actually gives you all the exact courses you need, and the ones from the lower college that fulfills them (even though they have different names etc.)

 

Our CC nearby my house doesn't have half the courses my son would need for comp sci.

 

One of the well regarded CC's about 20 miles away has everything he needs.  The direction of traffic that I live in however makes that a 40 minute drive in the morning until 11am and a 40 minute drive home after 3:30 when the traffic starts. (but you have to double those times if I'm driving) It's also a 2 hour ride by Public Transportation because our PT here isn't that great.  So, it just doesn't make sense to do this unless he's really ready, really into it AND he's getting a better education, not a worse one than whatever i'm doing at home.

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I would say that a third option is to find online courses that WILL intellectually challenge him. My son has taken several very challenging and interactive classes. I would find it a waste of my money if my son is not allowed to answer questions because the other students aren't bothering to do the work. There are other choices out there.

 

I completely agree with this. We use CC classes for subjects the kids wanted to get done but didn't care about. We used the local state U and online providers for classes the kids wanted deeper coverage in - or I taught them supplying resources at their interest level. I would NOT put him in a coop where he is being asked not to participate. 

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Don't judge CC students as all being unmotivated. Our experience has been that the students are engaged and motivated; just poor or middle-class and trying to save on the cost of the general education classes.

 

 

The CC student sitting next to you could be a Stanford student majoring in computer science.  

 

From the degree requirements for computer science at Stanford:

 

"In general, almost any college level, first year physics class that covers mechanics and E&M will be awarded transfer credit and count towards the physics requirement. So if you want to take physics at Foothill College [the local cc], the local community college, or at home over the summer, that is usually fine."

 

I took chemistry at Foothill and it got me into a top 5 medical school.  I was not unmotivated (nor were the other students) and the class was excellent, and prepared me well for the MCAT.  

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No - this is a high school level course which strong students would have taken in 11th grade.

Students who take it at the CC will be weak math students who were ineligible to take it in high school, or who did but flunked the placement test, and whose major requires precalc or calc.

 

There are a fair number of public high schools in CA where the highest math course offered is Algebra 2. The handful of students aiming to go beyond Algebra 2 are sent to the local CC as DE.

 

It's sad that this is the case but I would not assume that the reason students are in the CC class is due to their own failing and not the cr*ppy state of PS in CA.

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No - this is a high school level course which strong students would have taken in 11th grade.

Students who take it at the CC will be weak math students who were ineligible to take it in high school, or who did but flunked the placement test, and whose major requires precalc or calc.

 

I would not send a strong math student to take any such classes. He would be much better off learning at home.

 

At our local high school, the highest class offered is Alg 2, I think. Definitely not pre calc.

 

Strong students don't always have the opportunity to take these classes in 11th grade.

 

You may find several super bright kids in these classes who just never had the opportunity to take it before CC, and who end up being very strong in math.  They may be 'behind' but still strong, if that makes sense?

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I disagree with the general statement that CC math students are weak. There ARE many remedial courses, and students trying to catch up. But, at the precalc and higher levels, students are just as well prepared as the students in an equivalent HS course. Of course, every school is different.

I took Calc 1 through 3, linear algebra, differential equations, and probability and statistics at a cc. All transferred into my destination school, and I have multiple degrees, including math (ETA: I was valedictorian of my HS, and child of a PhD in math - I was by no means "weak," and many of my classmates were also strong math students).  DW has taught CC courses, and sees strong math students even in lower classes - they simply needed refreshing or mastery.

Edited by Mike in SA
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As to DE not being available at the CC, have you looked at DE at a 4 year college? That's where my dc have gone--our local university. The closest CC here would be 5 hours away. My kids have done anywhere from 29-65 credits. No, not all transferred, but that's not we were doing them for. 

 

Dd mentioned last night that she was glad she'd done college algebra and pre-calc at the uni, as she felt more prepared for Calc I & II. We did the college algebra to avoid a lousy professor. Navy girl went straight from Saxon Adv Math and struggled with calc. (of course she had the rotten professor). Ds took pre-calc at the uni before Calc I. 

  Great question!  Our four year stopped accepting any DE at all a while ago. They're even more full.

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Great question! Our four year stopped accepting any DE at all a while ago. They're even more full.

But if he takes CHSPE, he can have priority enrollement and take just couple of classes and do others at home. You can still issue a HS diploma and call CC dual enrollement despite CHSPE.

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Quality of instruction and level of classes (which are two unrelated things) varies tremendously between colleges.

Also, the fact that there is an articulation  agreement that guarantees transfer does not mean the classes are remotely equivalent.

 

We have many students at our uni who take their calculus at CC; they tell me it's because the course is so.much.easier. They may pass with a higher grade, but they learn a lot less.

It depends on the CC. Our CCs coordinate with the state U. The same material is covered in Calc 1 and almost all the students expect to transfer for a B.S. degree.

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Hmmm....yes if he stays home, the plan is Saxon plus Mathnasium which has been an awesome combo.

 

Since your student is STEM oriented, I would get a copy of Foerster textbooks even if only for the problem sets. Used copies are inexpensive.  Answers for odds provided so we did those. 

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Our state has an entire website where you just plug in the major, and the two colleges transferring to and from and it actually gives you all the exact courses you need, and the ones from the lower college that fulfills them (even though they have different names etc.)

 

Our CC nearby my house doesn't have half the courses my son would need for comp sci.

 

One of the well regarded CC's about 20 miles away has everything he needs.  The direction of traffic that I live in however makes that a 40 minute drive in the morning until 11am and a 40 minute drive home after 3:30 when the traffic starts. (but you have to double those times if I'm driving) It's also a 2 hour ride by Public Transportation because our PT here isn't that great.  So, it just doesn't make sense to do this unless he's really ready, really into it AND he's getting a better education, not a worse one than whatever i'm doing at home.

Anything available online from the CC?  I know your student prefers live classes (so does mine) but maybe one online per semester.

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I disagree with the general statement that CC math students are weak. There ARE many remedial courses, and students trying to catch up. But, at the precalc and higher levels, students are just as well prepared as the students in an equivalent HS course. Of course, every school is different.

 

I took Calc 1 through 3, linear algebra, differential equations, and probability and statistics at a cc. All transferred into my destination school, and I have multiple degrees, including math (ETA: I was valedictorian of my HS, and child of a PhD in math - I was by no means "weak," and many of my classmates were also strong math students). DW has taught CC courses, and sees strong math students even in lower classes - they simply needed refreshing or mastery.

I would agree here. I also think it depends on who the CC serves. In my state, the CC is the default id you need classes for DE beyond AP Calc, and there is free CC tuition, so a lot of kids start there. The one she attends is predominantly health professions, which includes nursing and paramedic training, but also includes a 2 year biotechnology degree, with a lab that has her lab bio mentor drooling, because her 4 year school can't afford to offer biotech (bio tech is a big industry, and they need technicians for lower level jobs, so they have strongly supported that program. The State U similarly has a good biomedical engineering undergraduate and graduate programs as well). As a result, DD is unlikely to run out of Math or interesting science classes-which was a major goal of going concurrent enrollment.

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Great question! Our four year stopped accepting any DE at all a while ago. They're even more full.

The state uni as well as UCs are probably already overflowing for CS but math/ sciences might still have spots. Of course UCs will be so much more expensive to DE vs CCs. At CC we pay $46/unit (as a student with CHSPE, free if without CHSPE). At UC, a 4unit class sets us back about $2900.

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Thanks quark that's true. We'd never be able to get to Berkeley from where we are :) but it's important for people not to forget that UC do actually do some DE! As far as that cost difference, wow.

 

Yes, definitely find cheaper options when you can. We opted for that pricey difference for 2 semesters because we could not get equivalents elsewhere. One of those classes could have been achieved online with a tutor but it would have come up to about 3/4s that cost anyway and this $2900 experience did wonders in other ways (e.g. peripheral skills, boost of motivation, and the oh finally a class with true peers thing).

 

After a while, it makes more sense financially, if the kid is ready, to just go ahead and graduate them for early college. We will pay about $8,000 a semester for 4 classes (freshman year). At almost $800 a unit, the 3-4 classes kiddo would have needed for DE would have cost $9,000-$12,000 a semester instead! :huh:

 

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We're looking at early admit + continued home school for next year.  That way, there's no impact to long-range options: since we haven't graduated him, he'd be taking courses while in high school, allowing him to enroll at a 4-year institution as a freshman on normal timelines.  The only difference would be the 100-odd hours of credit he'd have to sift through (some schools have transfer limits, others simply minimum residency requirements).

 

An interesting perk we have discovered: while some (few) unis do not accept DE credits required for high school graduation, the same is not true for early admit credits.  They weren't required, so they transfer...

 

If anyone knows firsthand of an exceptional case, we'd love to hear, but we've spoken to several admissions counselors and gotten the same answer each time.

 

DS1 at Virginia Tech had not issue with getting transfer credit for General Chemistry 1&2 and English 100.  I definitely listed the English 100 course on his high school transcript as his English credit for 12th grade.  I listed each semester of Gen Chem with Lab as a high school credit.  So he had two credits of science in 12th grade (one for each semester).  I don't know if the fact that he had more than the min number of science credits had an effect on how his courses transferred.  They also offered transfer credit for his calculus course, but he chose to take calc a second time anyway since he is in the College of Engineering.

 

Stanford is very stingy on any transfer credit or validation and won't accept anything that counted for high school.  But ds hasn't actually enrolled there yet, so I don't know for sure what they will do with his various college courses.  Just as an example, he will have 6 foreign language credits on the high school transcript, including 4 years of Latin (through AP level) and then 2 semesters of Mandarin (one from our local university and one from a community college).  I don't know if they will transfer or not.  He is planning on retaking Chinese 101, since that is a core part of his degree plan and it is a challenging language.

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Stanford is very stingy on any transfer credit or validation and won't accept anything that counted for high school. 

 

There are a number of selective unis that take this approach.  But, we haven't heard of any uni which wouldn't accept early admit credits (where the credit did NOT count towards HS graduation, but was taken before graduation).  However, courses at one school may not transfer to another simply due to difference in rigor.  If that were the case, I would not complain one bit - the earlier course would just be a great introduction to the more rigorous content.

 

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There are a number of selective unis that take this approach.  But, we haven't heard of any uni which wouldn't accept early admit credits (where the credit did NOT count towards HS graduation, but was taken before graduation).  However, courses at one school may not transfer to another simply due to difference in rigor.  If that were the case, I would not complain one bit - the earlier course would just be a great introduction to the more rigorous content.

 

I think this is going to vary widely based on the colleges involved, the exact student status when the course was taken, the intended major, and the course taken.

 

For example, Early Admit in my state is the term used for students from private schools and homeschools who are taking courses at the community college while still enrolled in high school.  It does not imply anything about whether the course was accepted for high school credit or not.  Public school students taking the same courses are enrolled in Running Start and are not called Early Admit.  "Dual Enrollment" is not a term used officially here by the public schools or the community colleges.

 

I don't think it is possible to make a blanket statement about whether a course will be accepted or not.

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My ds, who is planning on a stem career, took pre-calc and calculus as DE classes at our local 4-year university. We researched the professors online using Rate My Professor and Uloop to find one that would be both challenging and thorough. The prof we selected has been amazing! He has very high expectations, and my ds has been stretched in so many good ways. In addition to the calculus, he has learned important skills for navigating college classes, including how to seek additional explanation or help when encountering difficult material. The prof has become somewhat of a mentor to my ds, and he's gained so much confidence through the process. It was one of the best decisions we've made in his homeschooling journey.

 

 

 

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I disagree with the general statement that CC math students are weak. There ARE many remedial courses, and students trying to catch up. But, at the precalc and higher levels, students are just as well prepared as the students in an equivalent HS course. Of course, every school is different.

 

I took Calc 1 through 3, linear algebra, differential equations, and probability and statistics at a cc. All transferred into my destination school, and I have multiple degrees, including math (ETA: I was valedictorian of my HS, and child of a PhD in math - I was by no means "weak," and many of my classmates were also strong math students).  DW has taught CC courses, and sees strong math students even in lower classes - they simply needed refreshing or mastery.

 

But this is why I've tried to emphasize that you should contact the transfer schools -- not the general admissions people, but the department -- and ask if an incoming student would be better served to complete gen eds and save the major classes, or if completing the major classes would be good.

 

Our transfer admissions people would tell you to take everything you could at the CC and save money.

 

Our department would tell you that we strongly recommend taking classes that are going to be prerequisites for other classes with us and probably also that "cc Y students tend to be strongly prepared" -- we wouldn't say "don't take anything at cc X and cc Z" but I'm pretty sure you could figure that out. 

 

My brother had a really good experience and strong classes at his CC. They vary so much that it's impossible to give a concrete "rule". 

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I disagree with never take classes in your major. For STEM focused kids, that would mean arriving at the four year school with all the gen eds, leaving schedules packed with math, science and engineering labs, and nothing for a change of pace or a break.

 

In addition, the first classes at a CC should be classes in an area of strength, to help make sure it's a confidence-building experience.

 

The CC has lists of classes as recommended preparation for various majors. One kid did some from that list and some of her random interests, and the other kid is following the transfer associates plan. Neither has avoided classes in a future major.

 

Not all of kid #1's classes transferred, because she went to a private school that limits the amount of early college credits they accept. The other one is looking at a number of public universities that may actually accept all the credits. Those that don't give credit can give placement into the next class.

 

For someone with a STEM heart, that would be a good thing.  I remember being seriously annoyed at having to go to P.E. (p.e. was required) and Art History and Russian.  They were distractions.  

I think the British have a better university plan, your general stuff is assumed to be taken care, and you study what you need to study.  

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But this is why I've tried to emphasize that you should contact the transfer schools -- not the general admissions people, but the department -- and ask if an incoming student would be better served to complete gen eds and save the major classes, or if completing the major classes would be good.

 

Our transfer admissions people would tell you to take everything you could at the CC and save money.

 

Our department would tell you that we strongly recommend taking classes that are going to be prerequisites for other classes with us and probably also that "cc Y students tend to be strongly prepared" -- we wouldn't say "don't take anything at cc X and cc Z" but I'm pretty sure you could figure that out. 

 

My brother had a really good experience and strong classes at his CC. They vary so much that it's impossible to give a concrete "rule". 

 

 

My son's target U is UC Davis.  To transfer there as a Comp Sci Major you have to take your CA Gen Ed requirements, which in our state usually use literally the same textbooks and online stuff as the UC.  The Assist.org tells you exactly which courses match.  To get into Comp Sci you need your general Ed plus a bunch of other courses, such as Calc, Linear Algebra, and some programming stuff, etc.  You also need to maintain a minimum GPA of 3.5

 

BUT I called UC Davis Comp Sci department, and they were saying, they are getting so overrun by transfer students that less and less percentage of transfer applicants are admitted.  She said, he would need to shoot for a 4.0 and not only that but do some other computer related stuff outside such as internships, OpenSource stuff, etc. etc.  She said that they're still taking the same percentage of transfer students as a ratio to freshmen, but that's not the issue- the issue is so many more people are doing the CC-transfer route.  In fact, she said, if your student is a strong high school student, with a great SAT score, it's not any less likely they'll get in, than if they transfer.  And, she invited my son to come see them and said they are always excited to meet kids excited about Comp Sci....

 

So really, it so depends on so many factors! In our case, it's a wash as far as acceptance.  It's all about whether ds would be happier there at home, or to save money.

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:ohmy: That's crazy! I guess I will quit whining about paying $100 a credit here.

 

I've pointed out to our local ps that if they would enroll hsers at half time, they'd get $6000 for them. And then allowing them to take DE credits at our local uni, they'd shell out $800, but they refuse to do the arithmetic.

My district is offering an early college charter school at DD's CC, and the principal loved the idea of letting DD enroll on paper, take her CC classes billed through them and do whatever else she wants, and he gets the full allotment, but apparently hit snags on the fact that she wouldn't be on campus from 8:00-3:00 daily and that she wants to do classes at the Eastern campus (15 minutes from home) vs the downtown one (about an hour and 15 minutes, to get there at 8:00 on a weekday-about 45 at other times of the day).

 

Apparently, physical hours in class trumps everything else. Too bad-by my calculations, they would have gotten $7500/yr (and saved us about 2k).

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