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"It's not fair you're done with school when ps'ers have to go all day"


Soror
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Said by my MIL to my daughter (4th gr.) who had finished her work by 12 yesterday.

 

By that time she had completed 2 lessons Saxon Math 6/5(beginning of book so review), 2 lessons FLL4, 1 level spelling Apples & Pears spelling, 1 lesson Treasured Conversations(writing), non-fiction reading about Weather for science and we had a discussion about imagery, similes, and metaphors for literature. 

 

She started early and is a quick worker and we are at the end of the year so she has a bit less work. (She's already finished her history reading for the year)

 

After school, we went and did shopping along with a library trip so by the time the day was done she had done at least an hour of independent reading. As well as 2+hrs biking & walking, gardening(each kid has their own bed this year), helped with chores, an hour of electronic time and time just to goof off. I would consider it just about the perfect day. Dh said the next time she says that you need to tell her, "Ya, it sucks to be in PS." I'm just biting my tongue. We are not uber-rigorous but certainly not unschoolers either. I'm not going to add more work on just because she is a quick worker. The challenge level is just right for her, too hard and she starts crying in school, I've tweaked and tweaked and have finally got it just right for her just this year.

Edited by soror
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Is your MIL by any chance retired? If so, I'd dream of saying, "it's unfair that you're retired and plenty of other older people have to continue working at your age!!" I mean seriously. Just because others make different life choices than we do, doesn't mean we should have to bear the brunt of their repercussions for their own choice! What does she want- you to be purposely inefficient? Ugh. I'm sorry. Ignore her. Pat yourself on the back. You're doing a great job!

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Is your MIL by any chance retired? If so, I'd dream of saying, "it's unfair that you're retired and plenty of other older people have to continue working at your age!!" I mean seriously. Just because others make different life choices than we do, doesn't mean we should have to bear the brunt of their repercussions for their own choice! What does she want- you to be purposely inefficient? Ugh. I'm sorry. Ignore her. Pat yourself on the back. You're doing a great job!

Ha, yes, she is retired. Heaven help me if I brought that up! Really we have been getting along fairly well (for the first time in 18 yrs) but we certainly don't agree on everything.

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I didn't realize until we started homeschooling how seriously inefficient B&M schools are.  Heck, if I had 20 or 30 kids to teach instead of 2, I'd be inefficient too!  Even if we were all learning the same subjects at more or less the same level - it just takes forever.

 

I didn't even realize how inefficient it was when I was studying to be a teacher, or when I was teaching in a classroom, because I'd had no experience with homeschooling.  

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I haven't gotten negative comment but I've heard that tone of surprise by my MIL. We too are efficient workers. My girls have short attention spans. Our goal is to be finished before lunch. We start promptly at 8:30, take a short break or two, and are finished before noon, sometimes before 11. You can thoroughly cover a variety of subjects quickly with only a few kids. I'm quick to point out how much more they are learning since they get e one-on-one each day.

Edited by tdbates78
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I didn't realize until we started homeschooling how seriously inefficient B&M schools are.  Heck, if I had 20 or 30 kids to teach instead of 2, I'd be inefficient too!  Even if we were all learning the same subjects at more or less the same level - it just takes forever.

 

I didn't even realize how inefficient it was when I was studying to be a teacher, or when I was teaching in a classroom, because I'd had no experience with homeschooling.  

I have zillions of teachers in my family.  I taught for a bit as a substitute while I was getting my teaching degree, too (switching careers from something entirely unrelated).  I didn't realize, either, how much time is wasted in a classroom setting but you are right, with that many kids it is very challenging to keep moving on to the next thing and still provide something even remotely close to a solid education for each individual student.  My hats off to classroom teachers.  Their job is not an easy one.

 

I remember after our first week of homeschooling for the first time (3rd and 6th) I called my mom, totally stunned at how much we were accomplishing by noon.  All subjects covered, including intense remediation (dyslexic kids), by noon.  Of course, DD was so pumped at being more in control of the time table than when she was in brick and mortar that she got up at 6 and got started right away.  It was very empowering for her to be able to start early and once each thing was done she could just move on to the next thing.  My mom taught Middle School and High School language arts for many many years in the public school system.  She was amazed at how much we were accomplishing in a  much shorter period of time.

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Said by my MIL to my daughter (4th gr.) who had finished her work by 12 yesterday.

 

By that time she had completed 2 lessons Saxon Math 6/5(beginning of book so review), 2 lessons FLL4, 1 level spelling Apples & Pears spelling, 1 lesson Treasured Conversations(writing), non-fiction reading about Weather for science and we had a discussion about imagery, similes, and metaphors for literature. 

 

She started early and is a quick worker and we are at the end of the year so she has a bit less work. (She's already finished her history reading for the year)

 

After school, we went and did shopping along with a library trip so by the time the day was done she had done at least an hour of independent reading. As well as 2+hrs biking & walking, gardening(each kid has their own bed this year), helped with chores, an hour of electronic time and time just to goof off. I would consider it just about the perfect day. Dh said the next time she says that you need to tell her, "Ya, it sucks to be in PS." I'm just biting my tongue. We are not uber-rigorous but certainly not unschoolers either. I'm not going to add more work on just because she is a quick worker. The challenge level is just right for her, too hard and she starts crying in school, I've tweaked and tweaked and have finally got it just right for her just this year.

Have you tried talking to her about how efficient homeschooling is vs. trying to work in a classroom with 30 kids?  And how much that benefits your child?  Maybe when your daughter isn't around.  

 

I don't get the not fair bit, though.  She thinks her granddaughter owes other kids hours of her life each day?  

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On a side note, when we first started homeschooling one of my BILs (husband of a SIL) was really struggling to wrap his head around the concept.  Nice guy but we went round and round as he asked all these weird questions about curriculum.  I could not understand why he was so freaked out that I was picking my own materials.  Turns out he thought ALL schools EVERYWHERE used the same material to teach with (just translated into different languages) and if my kids didn't have access to that same material they wouldn't know what the other kids did.  They would have some sort of serious deficit in their knowledge.  He wasn't mean about it, just really baffled that I thought it was a good idea to pick "random stuff" instead of what "everyone else" was learning.  DH and I still laugh about his assumption.  :)

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She was probably just making conversation. If she loves your daughter, then her intent was probably just teasing, nothing serious. I say stuff like that to my grandsons all the time. They giggle and all is good.

Edited by Minniewannabe
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My kids in 4th grade b&m weren't done by noon, but they had a lot of non-academic time in their schedule (a good thing - social, movement, play/rest time between work tasks).  Library time, free reading, recess, lunch etc were part of their school day after 12pm.  Whether they may have been doing a little less or more than your daughter academically, I don't know, but I wouldn't worry about it.

 

You might come up with a response to that kind of comment in case it comes up again.  For example, "we do the 3Rs in the morning and the less academic school periods in the afternoon."

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A few possible responses...

 

"It's not actually a competition. It's just different. We're satisfied with both the method we're using and the outcomes it's producing."

 

"We're not recreating public school at home. What we do is a completely different approach, so of course it's going to look different. There are benefits and drawbacks to each, and one benefit of homeschooling is that we can be efficient with our instructional time more easily than a public school can."

 

"Okay."

 

"We're good, thanks."

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My kids in 4th grade b&m weren't done by noon, but they had a lot of non-academic time in their schedule (a good thing - social, movement, play/rest time between work tasks).  Library time, free reading, recess, lunch etc were part of their school day after 12pm.  Whether they may have been doing a little less or more than your daughter academically, I don't know, but I wouldn't worry about it.

 

You might come up with a response to that kind of comment in case it comes up again.  For example, "we do the 3Rs in the morning and the less academic school periods in the afternoon."

This is also a good point!  I don't think a lot of people think about what actually involves a brick and mortar school day.  There are quite a few things happening that are not strictly core academics and those take time, too, such as P.E., lunch, changing classes, recess, trips to the library, music, etc.  They are also needed/wanted/valuable.  Can I get more done with my daughter in a one on one setting than if I were teaching 30?  Yes.  But the school day is taken up with lots of things, not just core academics, most of which are also done in some form or fashion in a homeschool setting.  However, a layman would probably not even think to count those things.  I think a lot of people who do not work directly in a school probably just think kids are in core academics for 7-8 hours a day.

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No, it is not fair that so much time is wasted in ps and the school day for elementary kids is so ridiculously long.

 

In my home country, publicly schooled 4th graders are done by noon, too.

Do you have any insight into why time is wasted in the US and not in Germany?  Smaller classes?  Fewer different subjects and transitions? 

 

 

I think for many young children in the US we go far beyond decreasing marginal returns to negative marginal returns in the school day.  I think the last couple of hours in the day lower total learning rather than adding to it.

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Do you have any insight into why time is wasted in the US and not in Germany?  Smaller classes?  Fewer different subjects and transitions? 

 

 

I think for many young children in the US we go far beyond decreasing marginal returns to negative marginal returns in the school day.  I think the last couple of hours in the day lower total learning rather than adding to it.

  I agree.  I'm a former classroom teacher.  Even in the upper elementary years, it sometimes felt that the last 2 hours of school or so were mostly a battle.  They were DONE.  Sometimes I was done.  It felt like we were just filling time until the day was over.  I feel like it would have been more productive to end the day at around 1:30.  (We went till 3:30).

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Said by my MIL to my daughter (4th gr.) who had finished her work by 12 yesterday.

 

By that time she had completed 2 lessons Saxon Math 6/5(beginning of book so review), 2 lessons FLL4, 1 level spelling Apples & Pears spelling, 1 lesson Treasured Conversations(writing), non-fiction reading about Weather for science and we had a discussion about imagery, similes, and metaphors for literature.

You forgot to count in time you spend on music, art, PE (100 mins per week for 4th grade for public school here), keyboarding/typing, 15mins recess, 20mins lunch :) That would make the end time about the same. 4th grade dismiss at 2:15pm here.

 

My in-laws were funny. They think my kids don't need to study anything and ask why they have academic work and some classes when they were visiting for three weeks.

Edited by Arcadia
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I love your day! Perfect! That is the big advantage of home schooling. There are so many other more beneficial things for kids to do with their time than sit in a desk while someone talks at them. Play is at the top of the list. So much healthier for kids too. And perhaps it is a bit unfair to those poor public school students that their lives aren't in balance, but I feel no guilt at all as my middle school student gets all the sleep her growing body needs while they have to get up early to catch the bus for school.

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Do you have any insight into why time is wasted in the US and not in Germany?  Smaller classes?  Fewer different subjects and transitions? 

 

I think for many young children in the US we go far beyond decreasing marginal returns to negative marginal returns in the school day.  I think the last couple of hours in the day lower total learning rather than adding to it.

 

I don't think the crucial difference is that there is more time wasted in the US. The difference is that in Germany, it is considered developmentally appropriate for young children to spend only a few hours in school and not the entire day. 1st graders often only have three periods of 45 minutes and may be done at 11am.

 

Making a young child spend 7 hours in school is ridiculous; keeping them that long does not proportionally increase the amount of learning.

 

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While it could have been said in a joking manner it was passive aggressive, she has a habit of doing that (the kids then tell us and we set them straight as to why we do what we do and if it is bad enough work it into the conversation at a later date). Parenting decisions she doesn't agree with she makes passive aggressive comments to the kids. But really we get along pretty well, she's actually really cut down on the number of passive aggressive comments and throws in some praise and approval too, she's just got a negative personality, she doesn't even think about it.

Edited by soror
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When I was an elementary student, the last hour of the day was always for music, gym, and art.  Nowadays they mix these up throughout the day and end with something more academic.  I guess it's fine as long as they do have some mental down time during the day.

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When I was an elementary student, the last hour of the day was always for music, gym, and art.  Nowadays they mix these up throughout the day and end with something more academic.  I guess it's fine as long as they do have some mental down time during the day.

 

But it would be more efficient (and more pleasant for the children) to get school done and have the mental downtime at home free of the restrictions of school.

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But it would be more efficient (and more pleasant for the children) to get school done and have the mental downtime at home free of the restrictions of school.

 

That assumes the kids would be at home doing age-appropriate free play during the afternoon hours.  Not likely for most American elementary school kids.

 

ETA: Curious:  what do kids of working moms generally do in the off-school hours in your home country?

Edited by SKL
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I think the need for childcare is part of the reason the school day is so long, but I think it would be much better to have intensive learning in the morning, and then activities in the afternoon for elementary school students. Things like sports, music lessons, gym games, field trips, etc. could all be from 1-5 pm and parents could take advantage of this as much or as little as they wanted.

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Not dissing PS though.  My kids enjoy going to school and do not have a problem with the length of the school day.  It's just different, not better or worse, in my opinion.

I agree.  Different kids/families have different needs.  Many kids do well in a brick and mortar school.  Lots of people who homeschool have found sometimes their kids actually have done better for a season or even permanently in a brick and mortar setting vs. homeschooling.  And the other way round too.  :)  Depends on the kid/family/school, etc.

 

My son was soooo much happier in a brick and mortar setting.   It was just a better fit for him.  DD?  Nah.  She thrives in a homeschool setting.

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While it could have been said in a joking manner it was passive aggressive, she has a habit of doing that (the kids then tell us and we set them straight as to why we do what we do and if it is bad enough work it into the conversation at a later date). Parenting decisions she doesn't agree with she makes passive aggressive comments to the kids. But really we get along pretty well, she's actually really cut down on the number of passive aggressive comments and throws in some praise and approval too, she's just got a negative personality, she doesn't even think about it.

 

As DH says, his mother thinks that every silver lining has a cloud.  

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I hear people talking about downtime built into the B&M school day.    I guess as an introvert NONE of it was downtime.  Gym was probably the most stressful part of the day.  Most of lunchtime was spent in line, then inhaling the food or not eating.    

:iagree: 

 

I did have a lot more recess and longer P.E. than my own kids did but no I didn't consider any of it "down time".  :)   I'm not really an introvert.  I love hanging out with people.  School was not downtime.  I didn't have an issue with no down time.  We might have :15 minutes to read a bit but that was it.  Even lunch was loud and busy.  I enjoyed it but if a child needed downtime school probably isn't going to provide that.  And there are a lot of hours in a school day of being bombarded with noise and people, etc. 

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I consider the library visit, reading, and walking as school. Elementary kids have library visits, reading, and PE. I would have informed MIL of that.  She likely never thought of that. Homeschool doesn't always take place in the home nor at the same times as school. So if you took off to shop, then did the library and PE time after 3:00 it still counts as school. :)

 

I have to explain this to some. But I like your dh's remark too. 

 

Dh has an aunt that never says anything bad. But she asks questions. I remember explaining to her back when the olders were preschool aged, that they DID have preschool. I took them to library storytimes religiously. They also had music teachers and yoga teachers that rotated through those library times at ours back then. We read books and learned our letters and did art at home. I took them to the craft day at the local craft store weekly on the way to their weekly dance class. They went to Sunday school. We went to the park at least once a week with our playgroup friends.  They did preschool. I just did it with them. She was satisfied with that, and hadn't thought of that. People only know their own experience. In her experience, her kids went to preschool to do arts and crafts and play with friends and go to the park and to do music and songs. She only knew that in her world, home wasn't the place for that stuff. Once I explained it to her that they weren't missing anything she got it. She still asks dh interested questions about what we are doing. 

Edited by 2_girls_mommy
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I consider the library visit, reading, and walking as school. Elementary kids have library visits, reading, and PE. I would have informed MIL of that. She likely never thought of that. Homeschool doesn't always take place in the home nor at the same times as school. So if you took off to shop, then did the library and PE time after 3:00 it still counts as school. :)

 

I have to explain this to some. But I like your dh's remark too.

 

Dh has an aunt that never says anything bad. But she asks questions. I remember explaining to her back when the olders were preschool aged, that they DID have preschool. I took them to library storytimes religiously. They also had music teachers and yoga teachers that rotated through those library times at ours back then. We read books and learned our letters and did art at home. I took them to the craft day at the local craft store weekly on the way to their weekly dance class. They went to Sunday school. We went to the park at least once a week with our playgroup friends. They did preschool. I just did it with them. She was satisfied with that, and hadn't thought of that. People only know their own experience. In her experience, her kids went to preschool to do arts and crafts and play with friends and go to the park and to do music and songs. She only knew that in her world, home wasn't the place for that stuff. Once I explained it to her that they weren't missing anything she got it. She still asks dh interested questions about what we are doing.

I have never felt the need to explain anything to anyone. No one is entitled to know all of the details of my ds's education. Often, explanations end up sounding like excuses. Why would I have to justify myself to anyone else or explain how our trip to the library storytime or the craft store was educational?

 

It's nobody's business, and if they try to make it their business, don't let them get away with it. You can smile and be polite, but you don't owe anyone an explanation.

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I hear people talking about downtime built into the B&M school day.    I guess as an introvert NONE of it was downtime.  Gym was probably the most stressful part of the day.  Most of lunchtime was spent in line, then inhaling the food or not eating.    

 

YES! Fellow introvert. All the peopling wore me out. 

I consider the library visit, reading, and walking as school. Elementary kids have library visits, reading, and PE. I would have informed MIL of that.  She likely never thought of that. Homeschool doesn't always take place in the home nor at the same times as school. So if you took off to shop, then did the library and PE time after 3:00 it still counts as school. :)

 

I have to explain this to some. But I like your dh's remark too. 

 

Dh has an aunt that never says anything bad. But she asks questions. I remember explaining to her back when the olders were preschool aged, that they DID have preschool. I took them to library storytimes religiously. They also had music teachers and yoga teachers that rotated through those library times at ours back then. We read books and learned our letters and did art at home. I took them to the craft day at the local craft store weekly on the way to their weekly dance class. They went to Sunday school. We went to the park at least once a week with our playgroup friends.  They did preschool. I just did it with them. She was satisfied with that, and hadn't thought of that. People only know their own experience. In her experience, her kids went to preschool to do arts and crafts and play with friends and go to the park and to do music and songs. She only knew that in her world, home wasn't the place for that stuff. Once I explained it to her that they weren't missing anything she got it. She still asks dh interested questions about what we are doing. 

 

I go back and forth on this. For younger kids, I count it under school hours just because we don't do enough seat work to meet the requirements where I live but really I think it is just life for the most part. 

I agree.  Different kids/families have different needs.  Many kids do well in a brick and mortar school.  Lots of people who homeschool have found sometimes their kids actually have done better for a season or even permanently in a brick and mortar setting vs. homeschooling.  And the other way round too.   :)  Depends on the kid/family/school, etc.

 

My son was soooo much happier in a brick and mortar setting.   It was just a better fit for him.  DD?  Nah.  She thrives in a homeschool setting.

 

I completely agree, hs isn't the best for every kid. 

But it would be more efficient (and more pleasant for the children) to get school done and have the mental downtime at home free of the restrictions of school.

Yes, while I do think that hs isn't the best for everyone for a variety of options I do not think it is developmentally appropriate or good for young children to spend several hours a day of seat work. We need to stop looking at more schoolwork as the answer. Some teachers are working to change the tide but the system works against them. I teach a monthly yoga class to a group of k'ers that have a phenomenal teacher, she has a variety of seating options in her class and brings all kinds of extras to her class. She'd love for me to come more but I haven't had the time and energy to do any more than monthly classes as of yet(she does videos and reinforces what I teach in the off times). She gets the "problem" kids and works hard to help them all succeed if my own kids were going I'd love for them to have her as a teacher. Likewise my sister in law is another one of those good teachers, her 1st graders don't have a textbook for math, she works through problems with manipulatives and definitely stresses understanding over memorization. But from what I've seen those teachers are very rare. The k teacher I know catches some flack for her unorthodox ways but she gets results and the children thrive. So, there are ways to improve the system for sure but so many are so entrenched in it to see the options.

My reply would be "I know, right? We're lucky, hooray!"

My kids say that every time they see the school bus drive, super early and really late.

Edited by soror
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I have never felt the need to explain anything to anyone. No one is entitled to know all of the details of my ds's education. Often, explanations end up sounding like excuses. Why would I have to justify myself to anyone else or explain how our trip to the library storytime or the craft store was educational?

 

It's nobody's business, and if they try to make it their business, don't let them get away with it. You can smile and be polite, but you don't owe anyone an explanation.

Ya, I don't feel like explaining either, I'm really over that, we do our thing, people agree or not. Over the years she has softened her stance as she has seen my children aren't entirely ignorant and anti-social :) 

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ETA: Curious:  what do kids of working moms generally do in the off-school hours in your home country?

 

They can voluntarily attend after school care offered in the school (or nearby after care place)

 

Slightly older kids go home; it is societally accepted that kids spend a few hours unsupervised. Elementary age kids walk on their own to school; elementary schools are neighborhood schools and normally not more than 20 minutes walk.

Edited by regentrude
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You don't have to justify here what your dd did during her school day.  :)  Just smile and tell your MIL how thankful you are homeschooling can be so efficient. You have time for a full's day work and time for other pursuits and interests.  

 

I can give you a couple of real world antidotes about the public school system.  One of my dd's attends our local Vo-tech.  She and a few members of her class were selected to attend a movie at the movie theater, yet when I tried to get her excused to be an extra in a movie they denied it.  So she can see a popular movie, but can't see first hand how they are made?  Also, her Vo-Tech is one that several school districts filter into. This means that high school students are only required to attend if their individual school district is in session.  It doesn't matter what school district dd is in, she is homeschooled so there are different rules for her.  When the Vo-Tech is in session she is required to be there regardless. :rolleyes:  Near Christmas break last year most of the districts let out a couple of days before the Vo-tech, which meant her friends were allowed to stay home, but she was required to be there.  (Whatever, right?) Well, because most of the class was gone that day, they spent the day ordering pizza and playing X-box.  She had fun, and it didn't matter to me, but it wasn't exactly like they spent the day in crucial learning or even tutoring.

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My personal rules for situations with family:

 

1.  Don't assume malice or snarkiness.  Even if you are 99% sure it is there.  I answer cheerfully.  I like the "I know, right.  We're lucky" answer.  If the person persists and won't let it go after that answer, then I will be firmly but politely direct about setting boundaries.

 

2.  Grandparents and other relatives in a close family are interested parties.  I think that it is reasonable to answer some basic questions and to alleviate some fears.  As interested parties I assume that their questions are coming from a place of love.  Obviously if there is no love there but is control instead then set boundaries.  Some times I will ignore the fearful question if it is stupid and will answer the fear behind it. 

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I'm so glad you've figured out just the right level of rigor for your dd this year.  :hurray: I know it has been difficult!

 

One of my kids finished an entire year of history before Thanksgiving and another was done by Christmas. They worked hard & consistently. When a non-homeschooler overheard this fact, they asked what I was going to have them do for history during the second semester.

 

How about nothing? They earned their free time.

 

To quote DJ Jazzy Jeff & the Fresh Prince, "parents just don't understand."  :lol:

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I have never felt the need to explain anything to anyone. No one is entitled to know all of the details of my ds's education. Often, explanations end up sounding like excuses. Why would I have to justify myself to anyone else or explain how our trip to the library storytime or the craft store was educational?

 

It's nobody's business, and if they try to make it their business, don't let them get away with it. You can smile and be polite, but you don't owe anyone an explanation.

I do think that concerned relatives or friends deserve polite answers to reasonable questions. Not intrusive ones meaning to start some drama, but I'm fine with, said nicely and with a smile, " so if child isn't going to preschool, what are you doing at home for preschool?" A discussion Of all the fun things you are doing instead,cheerfully and enthusiastically has been enough to turn most people I know into acceptors of homeschooling. Maybe it's not the way you meant it, but intimating that you don't have to explain anything to anyone might make people suspicious of you. I prefer to try to get people to join me in my enthusiasm. Now if that doesn't work and they become nasty and manipulative it's another matter.

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