How important are rankings?

[creekland]

This is dd's greatest strength.  She is an incredibly hard worker.  She has aptitude, yes, but mostly she has an unmatchable work ethic.  Since she has a passion for learning, it doesn't feel like "work" as much.  I don't imagine her tiring of it any time soon.  I have a DS that I believe has an equal aptitude to DD, but not nearly the work ethic nor desire to focus on studies (he has "more important things to do").  

 

I expect she'll do well.  That's the exact way I could describe my guys.

[Pawz4me]

This is dd's greatest strength.  She is an incredibly hard worker.  She has aptitude, yes, but mostly she has an unmatchable work ethic.  Since she has a passion for learning, it doesn't feel like "work" as much.  I don't imagine her tiring of it any time soon.  I have a DS that I believe has an equal aptitude to DD, but not nearly the work ethic nor desire to focus on studies (he has "more important things to do").  

 

Your kids sound just a bit like mine -- DS21 is driven to succeed and thrives on competition of any kind. He's very conscientious, but he says he needs external competition to really do his best. That was his reasoning for wanting to do something other than homeschool for high school, and it's why he limited his college search (other than a couple of safeties) to top thirty schools.

 

DS18 is totally different. Intellectually he's probably more gifted than his older brother (oldest has never been tested, so I don't know for sure). But he's also 2e and doesn't care one whit for competing with others. He knows himself well enough to know he would hate a highly competitive environment. So he's focused his college search more on how comfortable he feels about a school than rankings.

 

I really think rankings are like anything else (academics, finances, fit,  etc.) -- something to be considered. But I think most kids would not be well served to base their choice only on rankings. We've always told our boys that they're going to be spending several years wherever they choose and you don't get do-overs on years of your life. And so we've encouraged them to make happiness their top criteria--to pick somewhere they'll be happy. For us everything else is secondary to that.

 

As far as the love of Chapel Hill -- you mostly know how I feel about that. But I think some of it has to do with the whole package. CH has great academics, sports and a fabulous college town. Duke has the academics and the sports but Durham will never be a college town. It will never have its version of Franklin Street. And I'm sure the third grade field trips to Morehead Planetarium that untold numbers of NC kids take doesn't hurt. ;) Duke isn't inviting all those kids to come to its campus every year as far as I can tell. I think it comes down to what Charles Kuralt said about UNC-CH: "Our love for this place is based on the fact that it is as it was meant to be, the university of the people." And it's been that university here for way, way longer than Duke has even been around. So while (I guess ;)) Duke may lead them in most rankings, it's really not fair to compare them in that respect. Duke will never, ever be "the university of the people" and they'll never have the following in NC that Chapel Hill does. In lots of ways they're on an unlevel playing field in that regard, and maybe it's not really fair to Duke to expect them to have that following.

Edited April 5, 2017 by Pawz4me

[8filltheheart]

This is dd's greatest strength. She is an incredibly hard worker. She has aptitude, yes, but mostly she has an unmatchable work ethic. Since she has a passion for learning, it doesn't feel like "work" as much. I don't imagine her tiring of it any time soon.

She sounds like an amazing young woman with a promising future ahead of her. She has all great options. She really can't make a bad choice. She just needs to revisit and make the best choice for her personality and wants. None of the rest of it matters.

[Ann.without.an.e]

As far as the love of Chapel Hill -- you mostly know how I feel about that. But I think some of it has to do with the whole package. CH has great academics, sports and a fabulous college town. Duke has the academics and the sports but Durham will never be a college town. It will never have its version of Franklin Street. And I'm sure the third grade field trips to Morehead Planetarium that untold numbers of NC kids take doesn't hurt. ;) Duke isn't inviting all those kids to come to its campus every year as far as I can tell. I think it comes down to what Charles Kuralt said about UNC-CH: "Our love for this place is based on the fact that it is as it was meant to be, the university of the people." And it's been that university here for way, way longer than Duke has even been around. So while (I guess ;)) Duke may lead them in most rankings, it's really not fair to compare them in that respect. Duke will never, ever be "the university of the people" and they'll never have the following in NC that Chapel Hill does. In lots of ways they're on an unlevel playing field in that regard, and maybe it's not really fair to Duke to expect them to have that following.

At the Scholars dinner, Stephen Farmer gave a very compelling speech about the importance of being public. He is such a humble, nice man. I was convinced that CH was a great choice. Dd would love it if it was smaller, I think?

 

I'll have to get ideas from you about colleges for ds, younger ds that is.

Edited April 5, 2017 by Attolia

[swimmermom3]

According to Malcolm Gladwell in "David and Goliath," it is more important to find a university where you can be a "big fish in a small pond" than to go to one with a higher rank. He has some interesting statistics to back up his idea, and my personal experience agrees. I went to the university of Kentucky for an undergraduate degree in biology while my best friend went to Duke for the same degree. I received individualized attention, was quickly noticed and guided into labs and classes where my teachers thought I could flourish. My friend struggled to look better than average. After college, I received a scholarship to medical school at Northwestern. My friend took out loans to go to med school at the University of Kentucky. It seems to me that if you plan to do post graduate education, the ranking system is trivial.

 

I have mixed feelings about the "big fish in a small pond."  At one of the LACs that ds was accepted at, his numbers were fairly high and the scholarship given would have made our lives easy, really easy. They had his major, only in a much more limited scope than where he is now. He could sail and he would be 30 minutes from a major city. Our impression from our very charming guide and ds's talk with a professor left us with the feeling that many of the students were there because they came from money and didn't have the academics or the motivation for the Ivies.  The students in the class ds went to were some of the least prepared ds saw in all his tours.

 

We know that our son does better when he is surrounded by kids who are motivated and sharp. There is a competitive element that pushes him to keep up.

 

[Ann.without.an.e]

I have mixed feelings about the "big fish in a small pond."  At one of the LACs that ds was accepted at, his numbers were fairly high and the scholarship given would have made our lives easy, really easy. They had his major, only in a much more limited scope than where he is now. He could sail and he would be 30 minutes from a major city. Our impression from our very charming guide and ds's talk with a professor left us with the feeling that many of the students were there because they came from money and didn't have the academics or the motivation for the Ivies.  The students in the class ds went to were some of the least prepared ds saw in all his tours.

 

We know that our son does better when he is surrounded by kids who are motivated and sharp. There is a competitive element that pushes him to keep up.

 

 

 

So do I.  And dd hasn't been in enough truly rigorous environments to know how she will fair.  I will say that her best times have been at the super selective scholarship competitions.  She finally, for the first time ever, sat down and had deep conversations about things with like minded people.  That makes me think she would love a Duke? I am sure plenty of this would be a Davidson and Wake as well! 

Edited April 5, 2017 by Attolia

[regentrude]

I don't want to comment on the rankings, because PPs have already said everything, but I wanted to say something about the "big fish"

 

I have mixed feelings about the "big fish in a small pond."  ..

We know that our son does better when he is surrounded by kids who are motivated and sharp. There is a competitive element that pushes him to keep up.

 

I do not buy into this advice either. One thing is positioning the student for visibility and chances to stand out of the crowd - but the development of the student's personality and potential is a different thing.

 

My DD would have been huge fish at our university. She won the undergrad research competition in the humanities division as a 16 y/o homeschooler and was tutoring engineering physics since age 15. She would have been a stellar student here, graduated with a top GPA, and probably in less than  four years. She would have been able to do everything to perfection. She would have gotten a good education, would have had lots of time for her interests, and it would have been easy.

 

At her school, she made, for the first time in her life, the experience that there are students who are smarter than her. That was quite an adjustment during first year, and I think it is a good thing to have this experience. I do not think it is beneficial or healthy always to be the best. She was confronted with a workload and expectations that forced her to limit her perfectionism because, finally, it was impossible to get done everything to perfection. Classes are hard, and she learned things about studying, time management, triaging and prioritizing that she would not have learned at a less demanding school. For her, jumping into the big pond helped develop and mature her in ways that another school would not have.

(And as it turns out, she grew into a pretty big fish in the big pond and will graduate in four years with a double major in two unrelated disciplines.)

 

There are plenty of reasons to choose a school. Finances are definitely to be considered. But the advice to go for the small pond is not universally applicable for all students. Being in the big pond gives opportunities for personal growth that have nothing to do with ranking or job prospects.

 

 

 

Edited April 5, 2017 by regentrude

[Ann.without.an.e]

I don't want to comment on the rankings, because PPs have already said everything, but I wanted to say something about the "big fish"

 

 

I do not buy into this advice either. One thing is positioning the student for visibility and chances to stand out of the crowd - but the development of the student's personality and potential is a different thing.

 

My DD would have been huge fish at our university. She won the undergrad research competition in the humanities division as a 16 y/o homeschooler and was tutoring engineering physics since age 15. She would have been a stellar student here, graduated with a top GPA, and probably in less than  four years. She would have been able to do everything to perfection. She would have gotten a good education, would have had lots of time for her interests, and it would have been easy.

 

At her school, she made, for the first time in her life, the experience that there are students who are smarter than her. That was quite an adjustment during first year, and I think it is a good thing to have this experience. I do not think it is beneficial or healthy always to be the best. She was confronted with a workload and expectations that forced her to limit her perfectionism because, finally, it was impossible to get done everything to perfection. Classes are hard, and she learned things about studying, time management, triaging and prioritizing that she would not have learned at a less demanding school. For her, jumping into the big pond helped develop and mature her in ways that another school would not have.

(And as it turns out, she grew into a pretty big fish in the big pond and will graduate in four years with a double major in two unrelated disciplines.)

 

There are plenty of reasons to choose a school. Finances are definitely to be considered. But the advice to go for the small pond is not universally applicable for all students. Being in the big pond gives opportunities for personal growth that have nothing to do with ranking or job prospects.

 

 

I love this, thanks for sharing.  DD has a lot to think about on this small pond/big pond argument.  Honestly though, I think all of the ponds she is looking at are fairly big.  I guess she could take the full tuition at Furman, be at an excellent school with amazing opportunities, and probably be a bigger fish there than at her other options, right?  So many good thoughts on both sides of this argument.

[creekland]

So do I.  And dd hasn't been in enough truly rigorous environments to know how she will fair.  I will say that her best times have been at the super selective scholarship competitions.  She finally, for the first time ever, sat down and had deep conversations about things with like minded people.  That makes me think she would love a Duke? I am sure plenty of this would be a Davidson and Wake as well! 

 

Many top students from our school (and my own middle son) go to higher caliber schools and come back incredibly enthusiastic about how they've found their tribe - some for the first time in their lives.  There's definitely a subset of kids who love such things.

 

These are also the types of students who come back disappointed in college if they ended up somewhere far beneath their capability.  They openly question what the big deal of college is all about.  To them, it was just as easy as high school with peers who were not on their level of either ability or dedication.

 

But again, you're only looking at really good schools, so I still think anywhere she chooses will be fine.  One of our tippy, tippy top students chose Wake over Stanford (full ride vs full pay - outside scholarships) and loves it at Wake.

[Ann.without.an.e]

Many top students from our school (and my own middle son) go to higher caliber schools and come back incredibly enthusiastic about how they've found their tribe - some for the first time in their lives.  There's definitely a subset of kids who love such things.

 

These are also the types of students who come back disappointed in college if they ended up somewhere far beneath their capability.  They openly question what the big deal of college is all about.  To them, it was just as easy as high school with peers who were not on their level of either ability or dedication.

 

But again, you're only looking at really good schools, so I still think anywhere she chooses will be fine.  One of our tippy, tippy top students chose Wake over Stanford (full ride vs full pay - outside scholarships) and loves it at Wake.

 

 

Thanks for sharing.  I could see dd finally finding her tribe at a good college.  

 

Wake is fantastic. It is good to know that you know someone who chose it and is happy with that decision.  It is dd's cheapest option and it is such a great school.  

Edited April 5, 2017 by Attolia

[lewelma]

DD has a lot to think about on this small pond/big pond argument.  Honestly though, I think all of the ponds she is looking at are fairly big. 

 

We are in the middle of this discussion also.  DS is a huge fish in the small pond of NZ, and he is pretty sick of it.  But you have to wonder how a young adult will handle the big pond.  Will he rise to the occasion? Will his sense of self be demolished as happened to my dh at Duke?  I know my ds needs a tribe, and that is what we are hunting for, but in the end it is up to *him* to take advantage of all that a big pond has to offer. He has to put himself out there, approach professors, seek out opportunities, take advantage of what is offered.  This will require some gumption, motivation, and self-assurance, in addition to time management, social skills, and general executive function skills.  He will not be handed opportunities in a big pond like he would be in a small pond.  So I've been talking to my ds about whether he can actually *do* this.  If not, then he will be a small fish and probably not like it.  What does your dd have to say about seeking out opportunities vs being sought out?

 

ETA: *If* ds can actually do this, it would be a huge part of his education - learning how to seek out and obtain what you want. And what an excellent skill to learn when you are young.

Edited April 5, 2017 by lewelma

[GoodGrief]

In the end, there are pros and cons, potential risks and benefits to each potential path. It's scary making some choices, even those that aren't necessarily lifetime commitments. For the college thing, at some point the student just has to bite the bullet and make the decision.

 

And in the coming years, you figure out what those good things and bad things turn out to be!

 

FWIW, my '16 daughter chose the smallish-sized, but rather intense and entirely different from home, pond of big fish. She is not one to adjust readily to change, and she wasn't entirely thrilled with her first semester (despite having many good things going for her.) We were both thinking about the "what could have beens" (because, of course, I want to fix things.) She gritted her teeth and went back after the holidays, and, what do you know? Her outlook changed over the course of a few weeks, and she began to embrace the differences there.

 

And, it turned out she could swim with the big fish too, ending up with grades in the top of the freshman class (gratuitous brag ;-) )

 

All this to say, your kiddo has good choices, and there will likely be adjustments wherever she goes, and wonderful stretching and growing experiences! Hopefully both of you can have fun as this final choice is made!

 

I have GREAT memories of the college road trip my daughter and I were on a year ago! At one point we met Jimmy Carter! :-) I liked all the schools, and wished she could have attended all, haha.

[Gwen in VA]

In the end, there are pros and cons, potential risks and benefits to each potential path. It's scary making some choices, even those that aren't necessarily lifetime commitments. For the college thing, at some point the student just has to bite the bullet and make the decision.

 

 

And do remember that you can switch paths. Nothing is set in stone.

 

I started life at an LAC and ended up at an engineering school. Dd2 started out at a LAC and ended up at a conservatory. Both of us did or will graduate in four years. I thought that transferring meant that you had to say goodbye to any merit aid, but dd2 was offered merit aid at every college she applied to AS A TRANSFER STUDENT!

 

Encourage your student to make the best decision he can at the moment. And if it doesn't work well, he can start moving in a different direction.

[snowbeltmom]

I also wanted to comment on the big fish in a small pond conversation. From some of the comments I read online when my oldest was going through this process, I got the impression that you needed to be a big fish in order to get the big opportunities. This has not been my son's experience at all. There are many opportunities available at his school for anyone who seeks them out. These opportunities are not limited to the big fish.

[Gratia271]

I also wanted to comment on the big fish in a small pond conversation. From some of the comments I read online when my oldest was going through this process, I got the impression that you needed to be a big fish in order to get the big opportunities. This has not been my son's experience at all. There are many opportunities available at his school for anyone who seeks them out. These opportunities are not limited to the big fish.

 

Oldest DD discovered early in her high school years that pursuing profs and opportunities at our downtown uni opened up many doors.  There's a lot of opportunities for students who take the initiative, reaching out to profs and people in industry. :)

 

[Ann.without.an.e]

DD decided her side on the "big fish, small pond" concept while at Davidson.  She's decided that she doesn't want to be a big fish in a little pond. She feels likes she has been this her entire life in homeschool circles (I know, we probably should have sought different circles) and she didn't find the experience fun.  She loves being with like minded, equally intellectually curious people. She thinks she will have this at Davidson.  I think that realization made the final decision on Furman for her.  Furman is a great school but she didn't feel the academic interest of those around her as strongly as she did while at Davidson.  The kids at Furman are smart, but she didn't see that passion for learning that she has seen at Davidson.  She would be on their highest, most selective scholarship.  She would stand out there for sure, but she would rather have more like minded people than to stand out.  I am glad she's settled this.  I am not sure where Wake is on this?  It might come down between Davidson and Duke.  At least we are narrowing down  :coolgleamA:

Edited April 10, 2017 by Attolia

[GoodGrief]

Sounds like the decision is getting closer!

[Arch at Home]

We are moving there also. DD wants to be a group of highly motivated, academically focused students. Truman State did not cut it. TSU also lacked in the quality of academic advising. It could easily work if you know your major but an undecided could easily flounder. Truman has gluten-free options in its cafeteria but there were a lot if hoops to jump through - no gf toaster, gf foods kept in the kitchen, needing to request separate condiments.

 

She appears to be down to Grinnell and Wellesley. She is headed to Wellesley next week and just in time to decide.

Edited April 10, 2017 by Arch at Home

[Ann.without.an.e]

We are moving there also. DD wants to be a group of like-mind, highly motivated, academically focused students. Truman State did not cut it. TSU also lacked in the quality of academic advising. It could easily work if you know your major but an undecided could easily flounder. Truman has gluten-free options in its cafeteria but there were a lot if hoops to jump through - no gf toaster, gf foods kept in the kitchen, needing to request separate condiments.

 

She appears to be down to Grinnell and Wellesley. She is headed to Wellesley next week and just in time to decide.

 

 

DD is gluten free as well.  We didn't get to explore GF at Davidson as much as we wanted because the food was mostly catered or out of the grill.  She does need to check up on this.  Emory was the best for GF we've seen.

Grinnell and Wellesley are both great options.  :thumbup1:

Edited April 10, 2017 by Attolia

[Arch at Home]

The best gluten-free we tried was Drake followed by St. Olaf. Too bad neither girl liked Drake. Your DD has some great choices also. DD looked at Davidson for a short time because Grinnell considers it to be a peer school.