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Memoria Press Latin Placement (and compare with CAP Latin for Children)

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Hi Everyone,

 

I have a 5th and 4th grader who I am going to combine in Latin.   They have both been through Song School Latin 1 and 2.   (Language, Reading, and Spelling are not their strong suit, so keep that in mind when making recommendations.)   

 

The original plan was to continue on with Latin for Children next year.   However, looking at the samples, I get the feeling that I am going to have to supplement the program quite a bit in order to give my kids enough practice.    My kids do NOT pick up on spelling naturally.   They need a ton of practice and repetition for anything language based to stick.   We will do daily oral latin vocabulary flashcard review using ANKI, but I think they will need more written practice too.    I have a feeling I will probably have to make a bunch of homemade conjugation and translations worksheets if we use LfC......similar to the way Simply Convivial supplements.)

 

SO---I am considering, possibly switching to Memoria Press next year for Latin since those programs look like they include more review/drill.   (I at least want to explore the MP Latin path before I buy anything.)    We have always used the ecclesiastical pronunciation, so that will make the switch somewhat easier if we do. 

 

My questions are:

 

1)  Where would I place my children if we went with MP Latin products?   Latina Christiana or First Form?  

2)   Is Latina Christiana a one-year or two-year program?   I can see one program on MPs website, but I keep reading reviews online which refer to Latina Christiana I and Latina Christiana II.    

3)   Some reviews say that it incorporates studies from Famous Men of Rome.  That sounds pretty cool.   Can anyone tell me more?  Does the Latina Christiana program direct you to complete specific lessons in Famous Men of Rome?   Or is it just assumed you are using that program at the same time?

4)  What about prayers and songs?   My kids always like singing in their target language.   Does Latina Christiana includes songs on their pronunciation CD?  Are the lyrics in the student book?  Or do I have to purchase Lingua Angelica?

 

 

 

 

 

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I can only answer a little bit:

In the past the order was:

Prima Latina

Latina Christiana 1+2

Henle books

 

Their current order is what you see on the website.

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Well I started to say Latina Christiana, but then I read again about you wanting them to have more written work. I taught Latin at co-op for four years using MP products, from Prima Latina to Second Form Latin. My opinion based on that follows.

 

Prima and Latina Christiana move more slowly and allow more time for things to sink in. They don't have a lot of written work, I think just a two-page spread for each lesson. It is intended to be a one-year program. FF does have more written work, including charts and things to copy. But FF moves a lot faster through the material, and IME younger students had a harder time retaining as the book progressed. My most successful FF students were in middle school and had done either Prima or Latina already. I do recommend the Famous Men of Rome book--I used this as a supplement and the students really enjoyed the stories. We didn't do Lingua Angelica, but LC does incorporate a number of prayers in their memorization lessons.

 

 

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For a 4th and 5th grader I would start with LC and do it at a one year pace. You can buy the lesson plans on their website which I found very helpful when scheduling out our lessons. The actual student book is only 2 pages per lesson, but if you add in the review worksheets and Ludere Latine and they will have plenty of practice. 

 

LC II was from before they developed the Forms and is no longer really used. Once you get LC down you should go right into First Form. There is a track for LC to be taught over 2 years, but that's for younger (3rd grade) students and still only uses LC. 

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Well I started to say Latina Christiana, but then I read again about you wanting them to have more written work. I taught Latin at co-op for four years using MP products, from Prima Latina to Second Form Latin. My opinion based on that follows.

 

Prima and Latina Christiana move more slowly and allow more time for things to sink in. They don't have a lot of written work, I think just a two-page spread for each lesson. It is intended to be a one-year program. FF does have more written work, including charts and things to copy. But FF moves a lot faster through the material, and IME younger students had a harder time retaining as the book progressed. My most successful FF students were in middle school and had done either Prima or Latina already. I do recommend the Famous Men of Rome book--I used this as a supplement and the students really enjoyed the stories. We didn't do Lingua Angelica, but LC does incorporate a number of prayers in their memorization lessons.

 

Do you recommend Famous Men with FF, PL, or both?

 

I mean, I know you like the books so it'd be good with anything but which Latin program does it compliment specifically well?

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I teach with MP at co-op, and have for 7 years now. 

 

1. I don't know those programs to tell you where to start for sure. But a LC would be good level for both. First Form would probably be ok, but not as fun and a lot of work for a 4th grader. I have had a 4th grader do First Form with our class.  But now in Second Form for 5th grade with us, it is tougher for her.   Both LCI and First Form are beginning levels. Neither needs any previous exposure to jump in. It is just that FF is a bit more boring, more studious. LC is lighter and younger. Both are at an age for either.

 

2. MP order is now PL, LCI, FF, SF, TF, FF, Henle II (Fourth Form incorporates Henle I) 

 

LCII was replaced by the Form Series. I have taught LCII for one of my classes before moving into the Form series, but just because I had a boy who was going to be a senior, and LCII would quickly take him through more of the grammar in one year than First Form. It isn't as deep as going through the Form Series, but at least he was exposed. So then the rest of the class went on to FF the next year.  My current 9th grader is taking two years on Fourth Form/Henle I. She took and aced the NLEs level one last year, only half way through Fourth Form/Henle I. She took NLE level II this year, and will use Henle II as her Latin III next year. FourthF is probably meant to be done in one year, but there was plenty there to make it a full year using only half of the book. 

 

2. Yes, LCI incorporates readings from FMOR into the study. The tests include history questions from it. It will only take you halfway through, because the 2nd half of the book was covered in LCII. But you should just continue reading it into the next year with First Form. My students LOVE these stories. I usually read in advance and retell. I have them keep a timeline book, memorize the 7 kings and the 7 hills and what happened on each hill. We recite those at the beginning of each new story. Stuff like that as we come across it. There are maps in LCI for them to fill out as you are going and learning. 

 

3. The songs and prayers are on the pronunciation CDs. The lyrics and prayers are in the student books and teacher books. They are scheduled into the daily lessons. The TMs are so easy to follow. They start with greetings, then prayer and song, then a list of recitation practice before you even get into going over the lesson with them. After we have done all of that and worked some grammar examples on the board in class, we end with 10-15 min. of history. 

 

NB,  if you are wanting to get into taking the Exploratory Latin Exams and later the National Latin Exams, you have to do a lot more studying of different vocabulary and history. There is a lot of history in FMOR for a good start. But you will need to know lists of colors and nature words, geography in detail in the ancient names, etc. I usually just print the syllabus from the website and we form another hour a week just for learning the materials on those for a few months before the exams. I have also formed a Latin Club many years where kids interested in the exams have gotten together to study for them. We have had a lot of fun playing memory games, writing and acting out our own play, and going to plays and making films on mythology to learn them. I don't think my kids would have lasted as long as they have through the grammar if they didn't have the fun of learning the culture too. 

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I am moving on to LFC A next year. I am planning to subscribe to Headventureland for online practice. My son really loved the Headventureland for SSL1. The first 3 chapters for the program are here. It's $19.95 for the year.

 

http://headventureland.com/moodle/course/view.php?id=3&section=1

My kids loved it too.  It was fun to be on the computer, but it didn't necessarily help them retain much.    CAP products are DEFINETLY more fun.   

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I teach with MP at co-op, and have for 7 years now. 

 

1. I don't know those programs to tell you where to start for sure. But a LC would be good level for both. First Form would probably be ok, but not as fun and a lot of work for a 4th grader. I have had a 4th grader do First Form with our class.  But now in Second Form for 5th grade with us, it is tougher for her.   Both LCI and First Form are beginning levels. Neither needs any previous exposure to jump in. It is just that FF is a bit more boring, more studious. LC is lighter and younger. Both are at an age for either.

 

2. MP order is now PL, LCI, FF, SF, TF, FF, Henle II (Fourth Form incorporates Henle I) 

 

LCII was replaced by the Form Series. I have taught LCII for one of my classes before moving into the Form series, but just because I had a boy who was going to be a senior, and LCII would quickly take him through more of the grammar in one year than First Form. It isn't as deep as going through the Form Series, but at least he was exposed. So then the rest of the class went on to FF the next year.  My current 9th grader is taking two years on Fourth Form/Henle I. She took and aced the NLEs level one last year, only half way through Fourth Form/Henle I. She took NLE level II this year, and will use Henle II as her Latin III next year. FourthF is probably meant to be done in one year, but there was plenty there to make it a full year using only half of the book. 

 

2. Yes, LCI incorporates readings from FMOR into the study. The tests include history questions from it. It will only take you halfway through, because the 2nd half of the book was covered in LCII. But you should just continue reading it into the next year with First Form. My students LOVE these stories. I usually read in advance and retell. I have them keep a timeline book, memorize the 7 kings and the 7 hills and what happened on each hill. We recite those at the beginning of each new story. Stuff like that as we come across it. There are maps in LCI for them to fill out as you are going and learning. 

 

3. The songs and prayers are on the pronunciation CDs. The lyrics and prayers are in the student books and teacher books. They are scheduled into the daily lessons. The TMs are so easy to follow. They start with greetings, then prayer and song, then a list of recitation practice before you even get into going over the lesson with them. After we have done all of that and worked some grammar examples on the board in class, we end with 10-15 min. of history. 

 

NB,  if you are wanting to get into taking the Exploratory Latin Exams and later the National Latin Exams, you have to do a lot more studying of different vocabulary and history. There is a lot of history in FMOR for a good start. But you will need to know lists of colors and nature words, geography in detail in the ancient names, etc. I usually just print the syllabus from the website and we form another hour a week just for learning the materials on those for a few months before the exams. I have also formed a Latin Club many years where kids interested in the exams have gotten together to study for them. We have had a lot of fun playing memory games, writing and acting out our own play, and going to plays and making films on mythology to learn them. I don't think my kids would have lasted as long as they have through the grammar if they didn't have the fun of learning the culture too. 

 

 

Wow!  That was really helpful!  Tibi gratias ago!   

 

So it sounds like I do not need to purchase the separate "Lingua Angelica" because the prayers and lyrics are already in the core TM and SM.  That is really helpful to know, and it will save me some money.   I also really like that the Famous Men of Rome is scheduled in.   But, do I still need the Famous Men of Rome teacher and student books though?

 

I think I am going to put both kids in LC after reading what you wrote....assuming I don't go with CAP's Latin for Children.  I am still trying to decide.   But I at least have it narrowed down to those two programs.  

 

How long do you think I would spend on Latina Christiana per day?    Would it be possible to finish in 30 minutes?  Or would it be more like an hour?

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I did LC with my 3rd grader last year.  The lessons were perfect for him.  They are supposed to write the vocabulary and charts 3x each week, so they get a lot of practice.  They also have recitations with each lesson, so my son retained a LOT.  He is doing FFL this year as a 4th grader.  It repeats a ton of what he learned last year, which started him off with a lot of confidence to move forward. 

 

 

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Do you recommend Famous Men with FF, PL, or both?

 

I mean, I know you like the books so it'd be good with anything but which Latin program does it compliment specifically well?

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Do you recommend Famous Men with FF, PL, or both?

 

I mean, I know you like the books so it'd be good with anything but which Latin program does it compliment specifically well?

They are written specifically into the lessons for Latina Christiana. I don't recall that they are for Prima or FF. It's been a few years since I taught.

 

I think I posted more than once, sorry if I did. Not used to posting from my phone!

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They are supposed to write the vocabulary and charts 3x each week, so they get a lot of practice.  They also have recitations with each lesson, so my son retained a LOT.  He is doing FFL this year as a 4th grader.  It repeats a ton of what he learned last year, which started him off with a lot of confidence to move forward. 

Is this writing prompted in the student workbook?  (Is there a space for it I mean?)  Or is this just something extra you do in a composition notebook or something?   (I am asking because I could add something like this to any program we use.)   

 

Also, since you just went through the program, how much time per day did you set aside for Latin/Classical studies with famous men of Rome?    (I'm trying to set a reasonable time budget so I don't plan too much which is my tendency.)   

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Wow!  That was really helpful!  Tibi gratias ago!   

 

So it sounds like I do not need to purchase the separate "Lingua Angelica" because the prayers and lyrics are already in the core TM and SM.  That is really helpful to know, and it will save me some money.   I also really like that the Famous Men of Rome is scheduled in.   But, do I still need the Famous Men of Rome teacher and student books though?

 

I think I am going to put both kids in LC after reading what you wrote....assuming I don't go with CAP's Latin for Children.  I am still trying to decide.   But I at least have it narrowed down to those two programs.  

 

How long do you think I would spend on Latina Christiana per day?    Would it be possible to finish in 30 minutes?  Or would it be more like an hour?

I've never had any teacher or student book for FMOR. I just read the stories from the book and write notes on the board for them to copy into their history sections. I have latin students keep a binder.  One section is for vocabulary or notes on grammar. One section is for history notes. I also have them make their own vocabulary flashcards in our "class time." 

 

Since I teach it at co-op, it is generally about an hour a week. We do the recitations, vocab, and grammar straight from the MP TM. Then I read as much history as possible. I write lists and notes and a timeline on the board as I go which they copy into their books.  That is sufficient for the history portion of the latin class. But it isn't our whole history in my family.  We continue on with whatever history cycle we are on. Latin studies are in addition to it. If you wanted to expand FMOR into your whole history, you might want the TM and guides for that. 

 

For LCI, I think a one hour class once a week to go over all new material would be good which could include the history reading. Then 30 minutes a day the other days should be more than enough. I believe there are two workbook sheets per lesson. I would have my kids listen to the CD the first day and repeat the vocabulary with it and review their flashcards. Then the next day do a worksheet. Then the next day another worksheet. (reviewing flashcards for 5 min. each day is a good idea.) Then the last day you can copy the blank grammar sheets that are in the TM and have them fill one out for the week. 4 days of work, plus one hour class once a week. 

 

Because we study for the national exams each year I found it necessary to add more time to history studies and additional vocabulary, mythology and other topics. Each year in the ELEs the 5th and 6th graders test on the same materials as the 3rd and ups, but they have an additional 20 questions. The 1st 10 are in latin and the 2nd 10 are on a special subject each year. I found taking that special subject syllabus from the website and dedicating an extra hour each week to study it, plus to review the vocab and sayings and such that are covered on the exams that aren't in the MP materials was a bonus. My kids do 1-2 extra study sessions a week on specifically those materials before the exams each year, again, extra from whatever history cycle we are on. 

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Lingua Angelica (which I have but have never used,) seems like it could have been made to give more translation work to LCII before the Form Series. It has a lot more songs than are on LCI.  I have never actually ended up needing it.  

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Well I started to say Latina Christiana, but then I read again about you wanting them to have more written work. I taught Latin at co-op for four years using MP products, from Prima Latina to Second Form Latin. My opinion based on that follows.

 

Prima and Latina Christiana move more slowly and allow more time for things to sink in. They don't have a lot of written work, I think just a two-page spread for each lesson. It is intended to be a one-year program. FF does have more written work, including charts and things to copy. But FF moves a lot faster through the material, and IME younger students had a harder time retaining as the book progressed. My most successful FF students were in middle school and had done either Prima or Latina already. I do recommend the Famous Men of Rome book--I used this as a supplement and the students really enjoyed the stories. We didn't do Lingua Angelica, but LC does incorporate a number of prayers in their memorization lessons.

There are supplements to LC if you want more practice--the Review Worksheets and Ludere Latin. They are an almost necessary addition in my opinion. You can use LC for a year or spread it out for 2, and then go on to First Form. They say you can start with First Form but even I found that to be a little intimidating.

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Is this writing prompted in the student workbook?  (Is there a space for it I mean?)  Or is this just something extra you do in a composition notebook or something?   (I am asking because I could add something like this to any program we use.)   

 

Also, since you just went through the program, how much time per day did you set aside for Latin/Classical studies with famous men of Rome?    (I'm trying to set a reasonable time budget so I don't plan too much which is my tendency.)   

 

There is not space in the workbook for the writing. It is just mentioned in the teacher guide.  I had my son use a separate notebook. 

 

We did not use the Famous Men of Rome.  There are questions about it on the tests, so we just skipped those.  (or at least there are Roman history questions that I assumed came from that book!) For the Latin only, we spent 15-30 minutes daily depending on the day.  Monday would take us longer than other days because that is when I taught the lesson.  The rest of the week took less time because it was primarily the writing and recitation and some bookwork spread that we spread out over the week. 

 

Also, I have a sllllooooowww worker!  He lives in his own little world without clocks. :)

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Memoria Press updated the Latina Christiana l and it's now Latina Christiana, 4th edition. Here.

The Rome history of the old LC1 tests are not in the new LC tests anymore. The Rome history notes and maps are still in the student and teacher books but not part of the weekly lessons.

What my 3rd grade is using for LC, 4th edition: DVD and CD, student book, LC Review Worksheets, flash cards, and Ludere Latine. For the Lingua Angelica when scheduled (not every week), we just listen to it from the Lingua Angelica cd and then recite it (some prayers were memorized when we did Prima Latina) because we do the translation in 4th grade with FFL (for us, anyway). Here.

Everyday we drill, recite, memorize...Latin is as important as Math if you follow Memoria Press. Day 1 is the longest if you let the DVD teacher teach, it will then be followed by writing the vocabulary. You can also check MP sample lesson plans- 3rd grade accelerated track.

My 4th grader is using FFL right now and Lingua Angelica is also scheduled per week under Enrichment section, and it's a separate book. 4th grade accelerated track.

Maybe you can do the drilling with CAP Latin everyday (I don't know how CAP does it) and stay with it if you like it. In the beginning of our homeschool (only doing it for 3 years so far), I thought of switching to CAP but didn't. Now I am used to MP guides' layout and loving it.
 

 

 ETA: The Roman History test of the new LC is separate and not mixed in with the Latin tests, but it's there. The test is two pages long and on its own.

Edited by Ambrosia
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I knew they had redone LCI. I didn't know they had taken out the FMOR on the tests. I still use an older edition. :) I would still read it alongside. It's a good book for any age group.

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I knew they had redone LCI. I didn't know they had taken out the FMOR on the tests. I still use an older edition. :) I would still read it alongside. It's a good book for any age group.

 

I agree.  :thumbup:

 

But since we follow Memoria Press core subjects (mostly), the Famous Men of Rome is done in 4th grade (accelerated track) and Greek Myths is done in 3rd grade. So, I made sure we cover just the Latin during Latin.

 

ETA: The Roman History test of the new LC is separate and not mixed in with the Latin tests, but it's there. The test is two pages long and on its own.

Edited by Ambrosia
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I have taught LC twice to 3rd graders.  It takes us about 15-20 minutes per day where we are working together, and then extra time for them to complete the written work (although that could be done together as well).  We do oral recitation and flashcards every day, then go over some translation exercises together.  There is plenty of practice if you include the review worksheets and games.  I do find that my kids need to do some extra copywork at least once or twice per lesson in order to spell the words correctly on the quizzes.

We do First Form Latin in 4th grade and so far that has worked well.  It is a nice follow-up to LC because so much of it is a repeat, but more in-depth.  The form series is nice because there is so much written work, aka review, per lesson.  I think a 4th or 5th grader who has not done LC could still be very successful in FFL as an introductory course, but it does include much more material.

My 5th grader has been doing SFL this year, and we're very pleased with that as well.  It really is just the right amount of daily work to cement the material.  I already have Third Form on hand and have been studying it myself to prepare for next year.  It looks like it is a much bigger leap than the other years- LOTS of workbook pages for every lesson and some tricky grammar.  I think that being a bit older when hitting that TFL would probably be a benefit!

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