How would you approach this negotiation? Master negotiators and Wise Women needed!

[38carrots]

This is what we've got.

 

1. House / hobby farmfor sale that we like and would like to buy.

2. 2 acres

3. Sold privately by "Lola" and "Bob"

4. Adjacent 12 acres that belong to Bob's parents.

5. Seems like either Lola and Bob are separated / divorced or at least Bob is away on a job and there's friction (but very civil) between Lola and his Parents (in their late 70s).

6. The Parents are well off. They have a camper on their 12 acres and they come once week to ride their 3  horses.

7. The horses belong to the Parents, but Lola takes care of them. The Parents bought the 12 acres after Lola and Bob bought the house--to have a place to go to on weekends and ride their horses.

8. The Parents are worried that they won't find a good boarding place for their horses and therefore were worried about Lola and Bob selling the house. The horses are very important to them.

 

Enter us, farmers wannabes, with great horse experience that philosophically matches the Parents' (and rare to find in our area). The Parents are in awe of our horse keeping and training experience. They think that if we bought the hobby farm, and boarded their horses, their horses would be continuing with the excellent care they have been receiving.

 

The Parents allow Lola and Bob the use of their land. Some of it is already fenced as horse paddocks (small portion), the rest is used for pasture and riding.

 

Both us and the Parents acknowledge that we can only board their horses if we can use the extra 12 acres. They have no intention of selling the land and at the moment we are in no position to buy it (but hope to be in the future.)

 

This is what we actually want, brutally honest:

1. buy the 2 acres hobby farm

2. board their 3 horses (in addition to the two of our own)

3. train their horses and use them as a promotion to our horsemanship (videos)

4. have the use of their 12 acres in the process

5. build a grass riding ring on their 12 acres (well, ideally a sand ring, but yeah lol)

6. give lessons with our horses on their 12 acres.

7. use their 12 acres as pasture / paddocks

8. have the opportunity to buy the 12 acres in the next 5 years at market value.

 

The Parents do want us to board (and possibly train) their horses. We had one meeting with Lola, and one with the Parents when we suggested that we would be interested in boarding their horses.

 

We are to meet with them next weekend "to discuss further." We see a small training facility there--matching THEIRS and our training philosophy. We see a business opportunity for ourselves, but we also feel that this could actually be in their interest as well.

 

Personally, I'm would feel bad bringing up what we actually want. Like, seriously? We want to BUILD A RIDING RING on their property??? Yeah, I know this sounds insane. But that would be our ideal.

 

Are we CRAZY??? (I know we are lol)

 

Other details--horribly slow market for sellers; very idiosyncratic house / property; poor Lola probably wants to get out of this mess with her Bob and the in-laws. Well to do elderly Parents who have other children and grand children. The 12 acres on its own is nothing--not very picturesque, not close to anything of interest. In other words--not a cottage material.

 

Can this potentially be worked out?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest]

No. If you can make do with 1-4, fine.

 

But if you won't be completely happy without 5-8, no.

 

Say they "let" you build the ring, then sell the twelve acres. You are up the creek without a paddle and out the substantial $$$ it took to build the ring. Now your horses are confined to your own 2 acres, too unless you plan to board them out.

[BusyMom5]

If I were the parents, there is no way I would accept liability for a riding ring on my property that was used for commercial purposes.  Sorry,but the answer would be a resounding no, no matter how great of people you are or how wonderful you are with the horses.  LEtting you ride on my property would be a much different scenario than allowing you to building a riding ring on my property to use in a small business.   I think you should make an offer on the house, agree to board the other horses on their property, and building the riding facility on your property, if that is your goal.   If you can't do the ring on your property, then you need to either buy their property or find another place that is more suitable to your goals.

Best of luck, sorry to be so negative, but you need to make wise business decisions.

[Shelly in IL]

I agree with OKBud. I see liability as a concern as well. Possibly land contract the 12 acres now? If they are open to selling in 5 years, perhaps they would do a land contract?

[PrincessMommy]

Would it be possible to get a long-term lease from them for the 12 acres?  Maybe draw it up so that all these different components are part of the agreement.  They're in the 70s.  They may be very willing to work with you on this.

[wintermom]

I'd keep looking for a better house, land and situation. If it is a buyer's market then wait and find something perfect for what you actually dream for.

[zoobie]

You'll need a lawyer to draw up a lease agreement contingent upon the sale of the land.

[Carol in Cal.]

I think that it's reasonable to ask for what you want, but that that should include a 'lease with option to buy' for their land, particularly if you want to build/conduct business on it.  After all, how would you get insurance otherwise?  You could rent it for a dollar a year or something.  Then you're legally in charge of that property, which is what you want, and you can buy it later, which is also what you want.  

[38carrots]

I think that it's reasonable to ask for what you want, but that that should include a 'lease with option to buy' for their land, particularly if you want to build/conduct business on it.  After all, how would you get insurance otherwise?  You could rent it for a dollar a year or something.  Then you're legally in charge of that property, which is what you want, and you can buy it later, which is also what you want.  

 

Thank you for suggesting this option.

 

 

[38carrots]

You'll need a lawyer to draw up a lease agreement contingent upon the sale of the land.

Yes, definitely won't go into this without a lawyer.

 

My feeling is that either it will all fall into places beautifully, or it will be one hot mess. If it is a hot mess, we are stepping away.

[38carrots]

If I were the parents, there is no way I would accept liability for a riding ring on my property that was used for commercial purposes.  Sorry,but the answer would be a resounding no, no matter how great of people you are or how wonderful you are with the horses.  LEtting you ride on my property would be a much different scenario than allowing you to building a riding ring on my property to use in a small business.   I think you should make an offer on the house, agree to board the other horses on their property, and building the riding facility on your property, if that is your goal.   If you can't do the ring on your property, then you need to either buy their property or find another place that is more suitable to your goals.

Best of luck, sorry to be so negative, but you need to make wise business decisions.

 

This is actually a great idea. If they allow us to use their property as a pasture / paddocks, we can build a ring on our side of the property. That's even better logistically.

 

However, we will need some kind of an assurance that we can buy that land from them at some point. Doesn't even have to be in 5 years, as long as it is coming.

[Catwoman]

Yes, definitely won't go into this without a lawyer.

 

My feeling is that either it will all fall into places beautifully, or it will be one hot mess. If it is a hot mess, we are stepping away.

I know you really want this, so I hope you can get everything worked out. It will be so disappointing for you if you can't get it. :grouphug:

 

Is there any way the parents would sell you at least part of their 12 acres now?

[38carrots]

I'd keep looking for a better house, land and situation. If it is a buyer's market then wait and find something perfect for what you actually dream for.

 

That's the thing--it is pretty perfect. Except the in-laws lol

 

As DD wisely put it, they could be boarders from h*ll, only they'd be also the land owners. Yikes.

 

But for now my goal is to go into the negotiations positively and with an open mind. I believe that one never knows how things can turn out. I think we need to try to see if they would accept what we want--and thank you to those who said we shouldn't even mention building a ring on their land! lol

[38carrots]

I know you really want this, so I hope you can get everything worked out. It will be so disappointing for you if you can't get it. :grouphug:

 

Is there any way the parents would sell you at least part of their 12 acres now?

 

This is a great point. We will ask.

 

I'm prepared for all of this to totally NOT work out, but as I said, I want to give it a good try. They seemed like reasonable people who would have literally no boarding options for their horses, plus they are in awe with DD training skills.

 

IF this crazy thing works out, it will be a great story to tell our grandkids. If not--something even better will come up, I'm sure.

Edited March 19, 2017 by 38carrots

[Guest]

One thing that caught my eye- Have you checked the deed restrictions for the county? Two horses on two acres wouldn't fly a lot of places assuming the house is on part of the two acres.

 

Also- I know you're experienced with horses, but have you ever provided boarding for someone? People can be more insane about horses than they can about kids. People also have a spectacular habit of late payment for boarding. You have a lot of what ifs in your scenario so I would be cautious. You could potentially be stuck with 5 horses on two acres if things go south and say the elderly people can no longer care for them or something else happens and Bob and Lola don't step up. We have a hobby farm and have seen lots of crazy things happen with the people around us. There are so many ifs in your situation I would keep looking. For what you want, I would want more acreage too. Two acres isn't much for horses and having a place to ride because you can't assume the other property.

[zoobie]

What about a life tenancy? They sell it to you but live there until their deaths or they choose to move out.

[Guest]

I'd consider asking them about leasing to own and letting them stay as long as they want, but counting the lease/use fees against what they value the land at.

[wintermom]

That's the thing--it is pretty perfect. Except the in-laws lol

 

As DD wisely put it, they could be boarders from h*ll, only they'd be also the land owners. Yikes.

 

But for now my goal is to go into the negotiations positively and with an open mind. I believe that one never knows how things can turn out. I think we need to try to see if they would accept what we want--and thank you to those who said we shouldn't even mention building a ring on their land! lol

 

What are the perfect things? I'd list those, and go looking for it elsewhere. 

 

You're so right about never knowing how things will go. I'd assume that the worst is going to happen, and then where are you? You can't go into a multi-thousand dollar property assuming that only the best will ever happen. 

[Selkie]

I wouldn't put an offer on the house unless you could purchase the adjacent twelve acres at the same time. Two acres is not enough for two horses, and being dependent on using someone else's land is too risky because so many things could go wrong. I would want to own enough land to support my horses. Since you said the IL's have no intention of selling the twelve acres at this time, I think you should look elsewhere for another property that is big enough to meet your needs.

 

Secondly, I would never ever ever want to board someone else's horses. Do you board at a barn now? If so, surely you know how often the relationship between barn owner and boarder goes sour. Then add in the fact that you want to use their land for lessons, build a ring, use their horses in videos, etc., and the potential for disaster is just too large.

 

I hope you do find a property that works for you! 

[38carrots]

One thing that caught my eye- Have you checked the deed restrictions for the county? Two horses on two acres wouldn't fly a lot of places assuming the house is on part of the two acres.

 

Also- I know you're experienced with horses, but have you ever provided boarding for someone? People can be more insane about horses than they can about kids. People also have a spectacular habit of late payment for boarding. You have a lot of what ifs in your scenario so I would be cautious. You could potentially be stuck with 5 horses on two acres if things go south and say the elderly people can no longer care for them or something else happens and Bob and Lola don't step up. We have a hobby farm and have seen lots of crazy things happen with the people around us. There are so many ifs in your situation I would keep looking. For what you want, I would want more acreage too. Two acres isn't much for horses and having a place to ride because you can't assume the other property.

 

Thank you. The way the horses are set up, with a track system instead of the paddocks, offers them enough space, but I haven't checked with the county. Good point.

 

I have my concerns with boarding, for sure. We haven't boarded anyone, but we've seen enough craziness, for sure.

 

If they stop paying for the horses, we would actually want them. They are DD's dream breed, has been for years. But so true that there are so many ifs in the situation.

[38carrots]

I wouldn't put an offer on the house unless you could purchase the adjacent twelve acres at the same time. Two acres is not enough for two horses, and being dependent on using someone else's land is too risky because so many things could go wrong. I would want to own enough land to support my horses. Since you said the IL's have no intention of selling the twelve acres at this time, I think you should look elsewhere for another property that is big enough to meet your needs.

 

Secondly, I would never ever ever want to board someone else's horses. Do you board at a barn now? If so, surely you know how often the relationship between barn owner and boarder goes sour. Then add in the fact that you want to use their land for lessons, build a ring, use their horses in videos, etc., and the potential for disaster is just too large.

 

I hope you do find a property that works for you! 

 

All true, but at this point the Parents want to meet up one more time to discuss options. So I assume they see some benefit for themselves. So this gives us some grounds for negotiation. I'd like to go into this most prepared and most open. I'm okay if things don't work out.

 

I am also not convinced they have no intention of selling. I want to see what they are going to say and what they'll put on the table.

 

I want to make sure we don't alienate them. I'm a rather weird person (lol) but I can see myself in their situation even gifting the land to a young talented horse trainer who would maintain their horses happy and healthy for years to come. Obviosly I'm absolutely not expecting anyone to give me anything, but since I know that I might do this if I could afford it, hey, I just want to see what they have to say. All I know is that they watched DD's training videos and said that in their opinion she is better than the big name trainers that they know. (Well, that's definitely not true, but that's what they think lol).

 

[Guest]

If you do work this out and board their horses, I would highly suggest having an attorney draw up the boarding agreement. Also talk to your insurance company before any agreements are signed and see if your property insurance will cover a claim if something happens to their horses in your care or if you need another policy.  Some horses (AND RIDERS) seem more prone to disaster than others, and you never know how people will react if they're baby suffers misfortune in your care, or if they fall off in your arena.

 

Everything with horses and owning property costs far more than people usually plan for, so just another set of ducks to get in a row so their boarding with you doesn't cost you money in the end. A friend of mine owns 150 acres down the street and boards about 100 horses on average, give or take. Oh, the stories......... I know I sound like the world's biggest pessimist. I promise I'm not though. But moving to a farm is a lot of stress as it is, and adding someone as a paying customer from the onset, it just makes things more complicated. You will have fences, and tractors, and drainage, and water supplies and so much other stuff going on when you first move in, and that's assuming everything is in working order. Just offered my two cents on covering your bases as a boarding facility. I love our place, but it's a LOT of work and it's not that big. But we don't have a staff and we don't have outside help so it's all me and DH. Every two years I begin entertaining thoughts of living in suburbia, until I realize I would have neighbors I can see!!  :scared:  :scared:  :scared:  Nobody wants that! So here we stay. It's worth it, but man. Neighbors make or break it. I hope it works out for you. Sending you good luck vibes! 

[38carrots]

If you do work this out and board their horses, I would highly suggest having an attorney draw up the boarding agreement. Also talk to your insurance company before any agreements are signed and see if your property insurance will cover a claim if something happens to their horses in your care or if you need another policy.  Some horses (AND RIDERS) seem more prone to disaster than others, and you never know how people will react if they're baby suffers misfortune in your care, or if they fall off in your arena.

 

Everything with horses and owning property costs far more than people usually plan for, so just another set of ducks to get in a row so their boarding with you doesn't cost you money in the end. A friend of mine owns 150 acres down the street and boards about 100 horses on average, give or take. Oh, the stories......... I know I sound like the world's biggest pessimist. I promise I'm not though. But moving to a farm is a lot of stress as it is, and adding someone as a paying customer from the onset, it just makes things more complicated. You will have fences, and tractors, and drainage, and water supplies and so much other stuff going on when you first move in, and that's assuming everything is in working order. Just offered my two cents on covering your bases as a boarding facility. I love our place, but it's a LOT of work and it's not that big. But we don't have a staff and we don't have outside help so it's all me and DH. Every two years I begin entertaining thoughts of living in suburbia, until I realize I would have neighbors I can see!!  :scared:  :scared:  :scared:  Nobody wants that! So here we stay. It's worth it, but man. Neighbors make or break it. I hope it works out for you. Sending you good luck vibes! 

 

I do know what you mean! We've been boarders for years, and it seems that within 12 to 18 months things start going wrong and we move barns. This is why we are looking into buying our own place lol The idea of having boarders mightly terrifies me from time to time.

 

 

[Guest]

I do know what you mean! We've been boarders for years, and it seems that within 12 to 18 months things start going wrong and we move barns. This is why we are looking into buying our own place lol The idea of having boarders mightly terrifies me from time to time.

 

 

 

We boarded with my friend for a couple of years before buying our place. He assured me we would spend far more and ride far less here than we would staying with him. Oh he was right! But you know what? I don't miss the barn drama at all. I totally get it. It was never the owners that caused us grief. It was the other batshit crazy boarders. I just wanted to ride my horses and be left alone!! :) I think not dealing with that and never knowing who was moving into the barn next makes all of the extra work and expense worth it. 

[Supertechmom]

Another thought is a first right to refuse.......a line can be added in the contract that if the 12 acres are put up for sale, it has to be offered to you first.  If you refuse, they put it on the market.