How to become fluent in French?

[Flowergirl159]

Today my 7th grader told me she would like to speak fluent French by end of grade 12. She doesn't just want exposure, she really wants to converse and be fluent in the language. Our French lessons have been very minimal up to this point. As this is really important to her, I want to guide her along the right path. What would be a suggested program to follow? Online lessons or private tutoring can not be a part of the equation at this stage. I am looking more at immersion in the language or curriculum she can follow through on. Suggestions for the next six years would be great lol But ideas for the upcoming year would be wonderful :)

[Monica_in_Switzerland]

The only way for her to be fluent would be for her to spend 6-12 months in a French speaking country with very little chance to speak English AFTER studying French seriously with high school texts for at least 3, preferably 4 years.  

 

I don't think your curriculum matters much, as long as you keep moving forward and use high school level texts as appropriate.  The only way to fluency is immersion.  

 

The exchange program I participated in had us sign a contract that we would speak French even amongst ourselves (American students), we stayed in local family homes, and our classes were all in French. We were required to participate in at least one local club and do one local volunteer activity weekly.  I joined a rock climbing club and a local (tiny) gym, and went and sat with and talked to an elderly woman each week.  When I left France after one semester (after 5 years of classroom French in the US), I was fledgling-fluent.    

 

I am now married to a French speaker, speak French at home when he is home, live in a French speaking country, have close French speaking friends, and have been here 14 years.  I still consider myself fledgling fluent, simply because the more I learn, the more I realize I don't know.  :-)  

 

The only other counsel I would provide is that she read, read, read in French.  Get children's novels, like Series of Unfortunate Events, Harry Potter, etc, in French.  She can also read along as she listens to an audio book.  

 

 

[8filltheheart]

My Dd is fluent in French and she got there independently. We created a mishmash approach that seems to have been incredibly successful.

 

She used texts like Breaking the Barrier and some advanced grammar texts along with more immersion teaching like French in Action. (She used the videos on Annen berg but I purchased the audios.) https://www.learner.org/resources/series83.html

 

But, in addition to that she started off reading children's books she knew in English that had been translated into French. (The entire Chronicles of Narnia) She took the same approach with children's movies. I would go to the library and find children's movies dubbed in French. (Most Disney movies are.)

 

Those were her "crutches." Eventually, she started watching movies she didn't already know. (Depending on your perspective, my Dd is very cautious about just sitting and watching French produced movies. She finds reviews of content before she decides what to watch. Let's just say my Dd has a higher filter for content. Just a heads up.)

 

She found a local Alliance Francaise. They have chapters around the country. She would go every month even though they are all elderly. She would just go up and start talking to them bc it was her only opportunity for French conversation. Her now French tutor (not really a tutor. More like their own book club where they get together and discuss books, politics, etc. She really isn't a teacher) moved here from France a yr ago. They meet 1 time week to talk for about an hour. She will also read essays Dd has written in French and mark them for grammatical errors.

 

She went to 2 1-2 week summer camps, 1 at Concordia and 1 at BYU.

 

She now listens to all of her news online in French. I'll come back and link. If your Dd can get to the point that she can understand all of the Flashnews, I'd say she has been pretty successful.

 

Anyway, that is our unorthodox approach that despite conventional wisdom has led to fluency. :) (She has reached somewhere in the ACTFL advanced levels. Not exactly sure which tier. We just know based on her latest brief assessment she is at least adv-low. When she goes to her college orientation they will do a more thorough assessment for placement. She obviously still makes mistakes or sometimes relies on circumlocution, but that is normal even at the advanced levels.)

 

ETA: http://apprendre.tv5monde.com/fr/niveaux/a1-debutant (this is introductory level cont

 

This link includes a better list and the Flash News.

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/605981-teaching-languages-you-dont-speak/?p=6979799

Edited March 17, 2017 by 8FillTheHeart

[madteaparty]

The only way for her to be fluent would be for her to spend 6-12 months in a French speaking country with very little chance to speak English AFTER studying French seriously with high school texts for at least 3, preferably 4 years.

 

I don't think your curriculum matters much, as long as you keep moving forward and use high school level texts as appropriate. The only way to fluency is immersion.

 

This. I'm very opinionated ;) about this but for maximum benefits of an exchange, 1. needs to be very strict (we could only speak to DS once a week, no texting or emailing. I about lost my mind, because he is my buddy, but his spoken French now,years after, is beautiful) 2. Kids need to go to school (or be homeschooled I guess, but that's so hard to do properly 3. It helps if kid knows the language a bit beforehand.

[Monica_in_Switzerland]

My Dd is fluent in French 

 

I don't doubt at all that 8's daughter is fluent.  But I believe she is the exception, not the rule.  It is extremely hard to have the self-discipline to seek out and engage in a foreign language regularly, in the goal of improvement.  And it also requires local sources for a French club with mostly French speakers vs a group of French learners.  

[8filltheheart]

I don't doubt at all that 8's daughter is fluent. But I believe she is the exception, not the rule. It is extremely hard to have the self-discipline to seek out and engage in a foreign language regularly, in the goal of improvement. And it also requires local sources for a French club with mostly French speakers vs a group of French learners.

She really didn't have the opportunity to speak much in French until the last yr and a half. Her conversational skills were much weaker until that point. I was surprised, however, how quickly her conversational skills did catch up to her other skills once she did have the chance to talk to her tutor all of the time.

 

Flowermom, uneven language acquisition of skills is pretty normal. My Dd has nowhere near the oral conversational skills in Russian, her other favorite language, compared to her 3 other areas (reading, listening, and writing, and writing lags behind reading and listening). And that uneven level exists even with a teacher. (To give an idea, she has passed whatever the test is required to enroll in a Russian university, but her Russian is absolutely nowhere close to her French level. Her Russian is where I would guess her French was maybe 3 yrs ago. Not sure exactly. But for French, she doesn't need "to think" anymore. She can simply converse without "trying to find" the words she wants. She can read as fast in French as in English. I would say her writing is her weakest level in French.)

 

My Dd is very serious about language acquisition. Her pronunciation is very good bc she used to walk around reciting poems or sounds in order to improve. She would record herself to see how she sounded compared to how she wanted to sound. (I don't know any French at all, so this was how serious she was about learning.) It might be bc she is gifted linguistically, but I think a huge part of it is just grit and determination.

 

When she would meet with college depts, whether French or Russian, they would ask her certain questions, and then they would interrupt her answer to make a comment about her excellent pronunciation.

 

Anyway, from her experience it is possible, but it was not easy. She was serious about it and found creative ways to supplement whatever area she felt was lacking. Conversational skills are the biggest part of self-study that you have to find a way to overcome. Composition, otoh, has not been extrmely difficult for her but she is an incredibly strong writer in general and grammar is one of her absolute strengths. (It is why her Russian is at the level it is.)

 

Not sure if that is at all helpful. I just wanted to encourage you bc most people do say it is impossible.It is at least worth the effort to try and see if she is able to progress at all.

[J-rap]

My dd is fluent in French, but didn't get there until she had some immersion experience (which came the year after high school).  She spent more time on French than anything while in high school.  It wasn't that her classes were anything special;  she just really committed to it and worked very hard, probably 2 hours/day.  She had three years of high school.  Her first year of French was online, her second year she participated in a televised classroom, and the third year she was actually in a real classroom.  During the summers, she watched American movies that she was familiar with that had been dubbed in French, and listened to French-speaking radio.  She read English novels that she was familiar with that had been translated into French.  We live in a small town, and there were no French clubs or French-speaking people.

 

After high school, she attended an immersion school in France for a semester, where she was not allowed to ever speak English except in her bedroom, and that's what really started her on her way to fluency.  Those were some very challenging months for her, but they were great.  By the time she attended college the following year, she could jump right into the higher-level classes of French lit, etc.  During her second year of college she attended a French-speaking semester abroad in Senegal.  Throughout college, she always jumped at chances to tutor people in French, or work with French people who were trying to speak English, etc.  

 

So as you can see, she was definitely not fluent by the time she graduated from high school, but was on a good path, and just kept plugging away.  She is now a teacher in France!

Edited March 17, 2017 by J-rap

[CadenceSophia]

M

Anyway, that is our unorthodox approach that despite conventional wisdom has led to fluency. :)

 

Your DD's approach is not unorthodox. It actually aligns with modern language research and those are all methods adult autodidact polyglots use.

 

It may be an easy way, but the idea that you cannot become "fluent"* without extended time in country or special immersion programs is a myth. Completely a myth.

 

I am a language learning nerd. I spend my free time hanging out talking about language learning research and methods, chit-chatting with people who speak and study 4-12 languages, many at high levels. For most people, if they get to spend a lot of time in the country it is AFTER reaching a high level independently. Some even complain their level declines in country :)

 

Frequent speaking is really not necessary. I know a girl with her C2 (highest level certification for foreign language learners) in French who did it with extremely limited speaking opportunities and just 15 hours on italki for test prep help near the end. She got so good at speaking by watching TV. She's not actually an exception.

 

Now as Monica is saying, the gap between a proficient foreign language speaker and a native speaker is big. Even if you make it to C2 on the CEFR scale, that is still as a foreign language speaker and not equivalent to native level. That's not a bad thing though. Getting to the C levels means you can happily live and work in a French speaking country. Even a B2 might be enough for what your DD wants to do.

 

*fluent is a lousy word to use as it means something different to everyone and is something of a moving target. You might be "fluent" in travel language meaning that your can handle all your hotels, meal orders and train tickets. It might mean something like Benny Lewis's Fluent in Three Months, which is a rather low level where he can speak and make himself understood but not necessarily write well or have good listening comprehension, all the way up through what ever high standard you have.

[8filltheheart]

Your DD's approach is not unorthodox. It actually aligns with modern language research and those are all methods adult autodidact polyglots use.

That is really neat to hear. We actually just sort of stumbled onto doing those things. She would talk about things she felt were weaknesses and we would try to find ways to improve them. The kids books helped with vocabulary bc she would figure out meaning of new words in context. Same with movies.

 

I am not sure she will get as fluent in Russian without actually going abroad, but we'll see when she actually takes classes on campus and has more interaction. She finds Russian a much more challenging language.

 

She is planning on attending a French university for a yr and her classes will be in French. She is excited about that adventure. We are trying to figure out when she will be able to study in Russia.

[MinivanMom]

*snip*

 

She went to 2 1-2 week summer camps, 1 at Concordia and 1 at BYU.

 

*snip*

 

How did your daughter feel about the experience at Concordia versus BYU? My dd is wanting to do one or the other next summer. I imagine Concordia being a more immersive experience, but it's a bit more expensive.

[CadenceSophia]

That is really neat to hear. We actually just sort of stumbled onto doing those things. She would talk about things she felt were weaknesses and we would try to find ways to improve them. The kids books helped with vocabulary bc she would figure out meaning of new words in context. Same with movies.

 

I am not sure she will get as fluent in Russian without actually going abroad, but we'll see when she actually takes classes on campus and has more interaction. She finds Russian a much more challenging language.

 

She is planning on attending a French university for a yr and her classes will be in French. She is excited about that adventure. We are trying to figure out when she will be able to study in Russia.

That's awesome. I just started studying Russian at the beginning of this year. It is definitely a harder language but the methods don't change. If you ever need help with contacts or info for Russian, some of my language nerd friends are living in Russia and one is a diplomat in Moscow. Feel free to PM me and I can probably find people to put you in touch with.

[Flowergirl159]

Oh my! Thank you so much everyone, the responses here are amazing :) I truly appreciate your help.

 

I understand that at some point she will need to have time with someone who speaks French, but for now, I want her to learn what she can on her/our own as that will set her up for when we can outsource.

 

Okay so I think having her memorise such things as songs, nursery rhymes, poetry, stories, all in French will be a great start. Last year she watched tv shows that she was familiar with (such as Peppa Pig, Madeline) in French for up to half an hour a day. We had also tried a few different curricula: Learn French with Paul Noble; First Start French - too grammar heavy which became a bore to her; So You Really Want to Learn French - haven't gotten my head around how to use that one; Getting Started with French; and Cherry dale Speaking French with Miss Mason - which I will use during our group time to teach everyone basic French.

 

So in a group format we could: sing a song; learn basic greetings; work through both Speaking French with Miss Mason and Getting Started with French.

 

Independently: She could watch shows, memorise a story (we used to listen to Goldilocks in French and I was amazed at how much we picked up and understood) such as Goldilocks. Any of the programs I have mentioned above, or would this be enough? Perhaps listening to Paul Noble each day? Maybe I should also get board books from the library regularly to read and practice with?

 

I know I asked about French, but as Russian was mentioned I might as well ask about that too. My 10yr has wanted to learn Russian for a couple of years now, and just asked the other day when she can begin learning Russian. Now I understand that Russian is more difficult and I know absolutely nothing about Russian. How would I approach this for her? She is currently using Skoldo for French and picking it up really well, but Russian is where her heart is :)

Edited March 17, 2017 by Flowergirl159

[momacacia]

Idk why someone can't just create a Whellocks for French, a related Lukeion class and then be done with it. I feel your pain Flowergirl. There are a plethora of resources for Spanish and Latin it seems and nothing for French. Very frustrating.

[CadenceSophia]

 

 

So in a group format we could: sing a song; learn basic greetings; work through both Speaking French with Miss Mason and Getting Started with French.

 

Independently: She could watch shows, memorise a story (we used to listen to Goldilocks in French and I was amazed at how much we picked up and understood) such as Goldilocks. Any of the programs I have mentioned above, or would this be enough? Perhaps listening to Paul Noble each day? Maybe I should also get board books from the library regularly to read and practice with?

 

Unfortunately, no that will not be enough. She needs a combination of direct instruction in grammar and vocabulary, as well as an enormous amount of input. Think somewhere between a thousand and two thousand hours between now and her goal of 12th grade. The longer she dilly dailies memorizing greetings, the longer it will take.

 

Forget memorizing songs and stories. It is a waste of time unless she loves it and is a quick memorizer. Her first goal should be to get through a program with a grammatical overview and accumulate a decent vocabulary (~1000-3000) words as quickly as possible. There are lots of choices but the most important factor is that she likes it and is interested to keep going. Whatever you choose should be convenient, fun, and even addictive. After that she can work with native media and books while completing coursework for writing and grammar.

 

Duolingo is horrible for pronunciation but good for first into to grammar if she doesn't find it too boring. I think a lot of kids like it.

 

Memrise is a flash card memorization type site that has courses users have made. The best thing about it is that many have audio. There are plenty of good French ones with native pronunciation. That will really offset duolingo's machine voice.

 

Cartoons for two year olds are a great start but don't let her get stuck there. Working through a dubbed series with transcripts like Buffy can be great once she has some basics. Same with books, your don't want her to get stuck with library books for babies. There aren't enough words in them. Once she has some grammar and vocabulary, she can work through Magic Treehouse or Animorphs with the goal of getting to YA literature like Harry Potter asap.

[Flowergirl159]

Unfortunately, no that will not be enough. She needs a combination of direct instruction in grammar and vocabulary, as well as an enormous amount of input. Think somewhere between a thousand and two thousand hours between now and her goal of 12th grade. The longer she dilly dailies memorizing greetings, the longer it will take.

 

Forget memorizing songs and stories. It is a waste of time unless she loves it and is a quick memorizer. Her first goal should be to get through a program with a grammatical overview and accumulate a decent vocabulary (~1000-3000) words as quickly as possible. There are lots of choices but the most important factor is that she likes it and is interested to keep going. Whatever you choose should be convenient, fun, and even addictive. After that she can work with native media and books while completing coursework for writing and grammar.

 

Duolingo is horrible for pronunciation but good for first into to grammar if she doesn't find it too boring. I think a lot of kids like it.

 

Memrise is a flash card memorization type site that has courses users have made. The best thing about it is that many have audio. There are plenty of good French ones with native pronunciation. That will really offset duolingo's machine voice.

 

Cartoons for two year olds are a great start but don't let her get stuck there. Working through a dubbed series with transcripts like Buffy can be great once she has some basics. Same with books, your don't want her to get stuck with library books for babies. There aren't enough words in them. Once she has some grammar and vocabulary, she can work through Magic Treehouse or Animorphs with the goal of getting to YA literature like Harry Potter asap.

 

 

Wow! Thank you so much! I'm so glad I asked :D

 

Okay so I'll do my plan as above to get going and use the First Start French we have. It looks like there are over 3000 vocab words in that alone, and it is quite grammar heavy. My 12yo memorises really quickly and enjoys the process, so I will include that for her.

 

Thanks for the tips on getting her past the little kiddie shows and books quickly. I feel like I have a goal for this next year or so now: to accumulate 1000-3000 words; to work up to reading level similar to magic tree house and harry potter, with the goal of advancing to young adult literature.

 

She has been using Duolingo but is finding that its becoming boring and not learning much from it. She had noticed that the pronunciation of Duolingo is not accurate :/ I'll take a look at Memrise.

Thanks again, I really appreciate your help :)

[8filltheheart]

How did your daughter feel about the experience at Concordia versus BYU? My dd is wanting to do one or the other next summer. I imagine Concordia being a more immersive experience, but it's a bit more expensive.

 

I asked her and she said it really depends on your language level and what you want from it. Concordia is definitely camp. But, she found the kids cliquey (many had been attending camp for yrs and all knew each other) and they didn't want to speak French when they were not in group activities. That really surprised her bc she really wanted to find kids who wanted immerse themselves. She did come back with better language skills, but no, it was not really immersive, either. But it is what she would recommend for a lower language student.

 

BYU is what she would recommend for a higher level student. Kids still often speak English.She and her roommate made a pact to only speak French and bc of that she got more out of it that way. Madame Thompson was the teacher for her level and she said she was fabulous. Afterward at on college visit we went to, they started talking to her about her. Turns out she has authored many of the intermediate college level French textbooks. Made Dd feel wonderful bc she had tried to convince Dd to consider BYU. (Absolutely would not have worked. Camp was great, but as a non-Mormon, she would never have fit in.). Anyway, she got a lot of finer pt grammar gaps filled at that camp and in class was all French.

 

Wow! Thank you so much! I'm so glad I asked :D

 

Okay so I'll do my plan as above to get going and use the First Start French we have. It looks like there are over 3000 vocab words in that alone, and it is quite grammar heavy. My 12yo memorises really quickly and enjoys the process, so I will include that for her.

 

Thanks for the tips on getting her past the little kiddie shows and books quickly. I feel like I have a goal for this next year or so now: to accumulate 1000-3000 words; to work up to reading level similar to magic tree house and harry potter, with the goal of advancing to young adult literature.

 

She has been using Duolingo but is finding that its becoming boring and not learning much from it. She had noticed that the pronunciation of Duolingo is not accurate :/ I'll take a look at Memrise.

Thanks again, I really appreciate your help :)

I don't think that approach will get her anywhere near fluency. First Start French is fine for little kids that want to dabble in French and play around with it, but it is the weakest French program I have seen and the grammar is its absolute weakest part. To actually learn the language, I would want a grammar focused text and then build other components around the grammar text. My Dd never used kiddie resources. She used children's books and movies, but they were older kid level. she preferred controlled vocabulary audio like French in Action. (Kiddie shows would have pushed her over the edge!). The A1 level videos on TV5 would have been better for her. (We didn't find TV5 until a yr and a half ago.) I would use programs like Mango, etc with caution. My 5th grader has been doing French with her sister as teacher and they were trying to supplement with Mango bc she has been so busy. Dd says several things they have taught her are just plain wrong.)

 

For Dd, grammar was the key to serious progression. Grammar, hand in hand with vocabulary and listening. She didn't find French in Action by itself helpful. It is more immersion focused. Dd felt limited bc she didn't understand the why's behind some of what she was hearing. She needed to be able to piece everything together and analyze what she was hearing/reading. But combining its immersion approach with a traditional grammar text worked.

 

Which brings me to your Russian question. My honest answer is that the best approach for a 10 yr old would be Latin grammar. I would spend the next 3 yrs on serious Latin study. Russian is intensely grammar heavy. Finding an accessible Russian program for a 10 yr old will be difficult. If they can master Latin grammar, mastering Russian will be that much easier. I stated upthread that grammar has been the key to my dd's language success. It is true. Her first language study was Latin. She studied Latin intensely for 5 yrs. Her Russian teacher would tell you flat out that the reason she is such a strong Russian student is bc she has such a strong grasp of grammar that all she has had to do was apply her Latin knowledge to Russian. She didn't have to learn it along with Russian. At 13 and with a mastery of Latin grammar, finding Russian resources or tutors would be easier and progression in Russian would be more rapid.

Edited March 18, 2017 by 8FillTheHeart

[madteaparty]

How did your daughter feel about the experience at Concordia versus BYU? My dd is wanting to do one or the other next summer. I imagine Concordia being a more immersive experience, but it's a bit more expensive.

We are trying Concordia for the first time this summer but not for French. I view it as fun summer camp with some language instruction thrown in. It's not really immersive and how could it be?

[8filltheheart]

We are trying Concordia for the first time this summer but not for French. I view it as fun summer camp with some language instruction thrown in. It's not really immersive and how could it be?

And they are all not equal. Dd's Russian tutor absolutely does not recommend the Russian camp.

[tdemauro]

My 13yo dd has been studing Russian with Mrs. Denne since the age of 10.  My dd had taken a Russian course through CurrClick with Mr. G at the age of 9.  His class provided a wonderful introduction to the language.  After two semsters with him, my dd switched to private tutoring with Mrs. Denne, who is highly recommended on these boards.  Based on the initial assessment, Mr. Denne indicated the my dd's pronunciation was quite good, but she needed more practice reading and speaking Russian.  She pointed out that my dd's being on the younger side would allow for plenty of time to concentrate on and hone her phonetic skills.  She stated that her main goal is to ensure that her students acquire the best pronunciation possible.  Please do not let your dd's age deter you from seeking instruction for her.

 

As for the grammar component, my dd has spent years studying English grammar.  According to Mrs. Denne, dd has a natural talent for grasping grammar concepts, even suggesting that dd could be a linguist.  Mrs. Denne also stated that hard work is the most important factor for learning a language --- much more important than talent.  My dd is also studying German and French, so she has an affinity and passion for learning languages --- as long as she chooses the language.  I tried relentlessly to get my dd onboard with learning Latin, but it was a futile attempt.  I truly believe in the value of learning a classical language; if your dd has an interest in learning Latin, I suggest pursuing that avenue.  However, forcing my dd to continue with her Latin studies would have been disastrous.  She pleaded with me for months before I allowed her to drop it.  I have no doubt that she would have done well, as is her nature, but it would not have been worth all the misery.  In addition to hard work being a crucial factor in language learning, INTEREST is critical as well.

 

If your daughter is serious about learning Russian, I am not sure that spending three years studying Latin is the best approach.  I suggest you contact Mrs. Denne for her recommendations.  Here is her website: https://bytheonionsea.com/about/

 

 

[8filltheheart]

My 13yo dd has been studing Russian with Mrs. Denne since the age of 10.  My dd had taken a Russian course through CurrClick with Mr. G at the age of 9.  His class provided a wonderful introduction to the language.  After two semsters with him, my dd switched to private tutoring with Mrs. Denne, who is highly recommended on these boards.  Based on the initial assessment, Mr. Denne indicated the my dd's pronunciation was quite good, but she needed more practice reading and speaking Russian.  She pointed out that my dd's being on the younger side would allow for plenty of time to concentrate on and hone her phonetic skills.  She stated that her main goal is to ensure that her students acquire the best pronunciation possible.  Please do not let your dd's age deter you from seeking instruction for her.

 

As for the grammar component, my dd has spent years studying English grammar.  According to Mrs. Denne, dd has a natural talent for grasping grammar concepts, even suggesting that dd could be a linguist.  Mrs. Denne also stated that hard work is the most important factor for learning a language --- much more important than talent.  My dd is also studying German and French, so she has an affinity and passion for learning languages --- as long as she chooses the language.  I tried relentlessly to get my dd onboard with learning Latin, but it was a futile attempt.  I truly believe in the value of learning a classical language; if your dd has an interest in learning Latin, I suggest pursuing that avenue.  However, forcing my dd to continue with her Latin studies would have been disastrous.  She pleaded with me for months before I allowed her to drop it.  I have no doubt that she would have done well, as is her nature, but it would not have been worth all the misery.  In addition to hard work being a crucial factor in language learning, INTEREST is critical as well.

 

If your daughter is serious about learning Russian, I am not sure that spending three years studying Latin is the best approach.  I suggest you contact Mrs. Denne for her recommendations.  Here is her website: https://bytheonionsea.com/about/

 

I agree.  I love Ms. Denne.  The problem, however, is that OP stated that a tutor was impossible at this time for even the older student.  I think learning Russian independently at 10 would be next to impossible and Latin resources are plentiful.  Understanding grammar would make the leap into Russian easier and allow for much faster progression.

Edited March 18, 2017 by 8FillTheHeart

[73349]

Better than memorizing French songs, poems, etc., is to get into the habit of translating English ones to French when she hears/reads them. Another good habit is looking around a room (or an outdoor space like a park) and naming in her head every item possible. That will identify for her nouns that are missing from her vocabulary, and reinforce the ones she knows.

 

Does anybody in your family speak French? If so, try to get that person talking to her as much as possible. If you do yourself, play games like I Spy in French. ("Je vois quelque chose...")

Edited March 18, 2017 by whitehawk

[Flowergirl159]

I don't think that approach will get her anywhere near fluency. First Start French is fine for little kids that want to dabble in French and play around with it, but it is the weakest French program I have seen and the grammar is its absolute weakest part. To actually learn the language, I would want a grammar focused text and then build other components around the grammar text. My Dd never used kiddie resources. She used children's books and movies, but they were older kid level. she preferred controlled vocabulary audio like French in Action. (Kiddie shows would have pushed her over the edge!). The A1 level videos on TV5 would have been better for her. (We didn't find TV5 until a yr and a half ago.) I would use programs like Mango, etc with caution. My 5th grader has been doing French with her sister as teacher and they were trying to supplement with Mango bc she has been so busy. Dd says several things they have taught her are just plain wrong.)

 

For Dd, grammar was the key to serious progression. Grammar, hand in hand with vocabulary and listening. She didn't find French in Action by itself helpful. It is more immersion focused. Dd felt limited bc she didn't understand the why's behind some of what she was hearing. She needed to be able to piece everything together and analyze what she was hearing/reading. But combining its immersion approach with a traditional grammar text worked.

 

Which brings me to your Russian question. My honest answer is that the best approach for a 10 yr old would be Latin grammar. I would spend the next 3 yrs on serious Latin study. Russian is intensely grammar heavy. Finding an accessible Russian program for a 10 yr old will be difficult. If they can master Latin grammar, mastering Russian will be that much easier. I stated upthread that grammar has been the key to my dd's language success. It is true. Her first language study was Latin. She studied Latin intensely for 5 yrs. Her Russian teacher would tell you flat out that the reason she is such a strong Russian student is bc she has such a strong grasp of grammar that all she has had to do was apply her Latin knowledge to Russian. She didn't have to learn it along with Russian. At 13 and with a mastery of Latin grammar, finding Russian resources or tutors would be easier and progression in Russian would be more rapid.

 

Thanks for your response :)

I suggested First Start French because I have it :) And I don't know French, so I need all the assistance I can get! What do you recommend as a grammar focused text? Or what do recommend I use for this component for her? At this stage I would rather use something we already have, just to get her moving. She has been playing around with Mango the past two weeks, and she is aware that some things may not be accurate.

 

My 10yo did Prima Latina last year and loved it. We are just started Latina Christiana. I was going to have her move onto Visual Latin after that. Thanks for the suggestion :)

[CadenceSophia]

I feel like I have a goal for this next year or so now: to accumulate 1000-3000 words; to work up to reading level similar to magic tree house and harry potter, with the goal of advancing to young adult literature.

 

 

 

 

So, what I meant by "as quickly as possible" was more like 3-6 months. Not "a year or so".  I totally agree with 8FillTheHeart's post. I think it is always hard to express exactly HOW MANY hours of commitment it really is to learn another language to high proficiency. She'll need to be spending a MINIMUM of 1h/day 7 days a week. Honestly, more would be better. 2-3 hours a day. 1 being (really good, intensive) grammar, the other 2 being TV and book reading.  Having this be her first foreign language is a real hurdle. 

[tdemauro]

I agree.  I love Ms. Denne.  The problem, however, is that OP stated that a tutor was impossible at this time for even the older student.  I think learning Russian independently at 10 would be next to impossible and Latin resources are plentiful.  Understanding grammar would make the leap into Russian easier and allow for much faster progression.

 

Thank you for pointing out that a tutor or class is not possible at this time.  I missed that in the original post. 

 

Yes, learning Russian independently at 10 appears daunting.  As long as her daughter is not vehemently opposed to learning Latin as mine was, I think it is a terrific idea!  If her daughter is not keen on that idea, I feel studying English grammar thoroughly will be incredibly helpful.  Also, if learning a spoken modern language is more preferable, my dd has found that studying Russian has made learning German much easier.  Maybe studying German, another inflected language with cases and gender, will make the leap into Russian easier?  I just want to throw other options out there.

 

Also, no harm in her daughter learning the Russian alphabet, both spoken and written (cursive as well).  I am trying to think of ways to satisfy her daughter's yearning for learning a language that is so challenging to do on one's own. 

[Flowergirl159]

My 13yo dd has been studing Russian with Mrs. Denne since the age of 10.  My dd had taken a Russian course through CurrClick with Mr. G at the age of 9.  His class provided a wonderful introduction to the language.  After two semsters with him, my dd switched to private tutoring with Mrs. Denne, who is highly recommended on these boards.  Based on the initial assessment, Mr. Denne indicated the my dd's pronunciation was quite good, but she needed more practice reading and speaking Russian.  She pointed out that my dd's being on the younger side would allow for plenty of time to concentrate on and hone her phonetic skills.  She stated that her main goal is to ensure that her students acquire the best pronunciation possible.  Please do not let your dd's age deter you from seeking instruction for her.

 

As for the grammar component, my dd has spent years studying English grammar.  According to Mrs. Denne, dd has a natural talent for grasping grammar concepts, even suggesting that dd could be a linguist.  Mrs. Denne also stated that hard work is the most important factor for learning a language --- much more important than talent.  My dd is also studying German and French, so she has an affinity and passion for learning languages --- as long as she chooses the language.  I tried relentlessly to get my dd onboard with learning Latin, but it was a futile attempt.  I truly believe in the value of learning a classical language; if your dd has an interest in learning Latin, I suggest pursuing that avenue.  However, forcing my dd to continue with her Latin studies would have been disastrous.  She pleaded with me for months before I allowed her to drop it.  I have no doubt that she would have done well, as is her nature, but it would not have been worth all the misery.  In addition to hard work being a crucial factor in language learning, INTEREST is critical as well.

 

If your daughter is serious about learning Russian, I am not sure that spending three years studying Latin is the best approach.  I suggest you contact Mrs. Denne for her recommendations.  Here is her website: https://bytheonionsea.com/about/

 

Thanks for your response! Yes I agree that interest is a huge component to learning a language. My 12yo has not had a lot of interest in Latin, however loves learning other languages. She will be finishing Visual Latin this year and if she doesn't want to continue with Latin, that's fine with me. I am happy for her to use her language learning time on other languages that she is interested in. I will look into your suggestion, however, I won't be able to hire a tutor at this stage. Perhaps I could begin her with immersion in Russian so she can hear the language while she is still young.

[Flowergirl159]

Better than memorizing French songs, poems, etc., is to get into the habit of translating English ones to French when she hears/reads them. Another good habit is looking around a room (or an outdoor space like a park) and naming in her head every item possible. That will identify for her nouns that are missing from her vocabulary, and reinforce the ones she knows.

 

Does anybody in your family speak French? If so, try to get that person talking to her as much as possible. If you do yourself, play games like I Spy in French. ("Je vois quelque chose...")

 

Thanks for the ideas! Translating poems into French she might find fun :) I like your idea of naming things around our house, that would show her what she knows and what she needs to learn :) 

 

Unfortunately, no one we know speaks French, otherwise, we would already be onto that ;/

[Flowergirl159]

Thank you for pointing out that a tutor or class is not possible at this time.  I missed that in the original post. 

 

Yes, learning Russian independently at 10 appears daunting.  As long as her daughter is not vehemently opposed to learning Latin as mine was, I think it is a terrific idea!  If her daughter is not keen on that idea, I feel studying English grammar thoroughly will be incredibly helpful.  Also, if learning a spoken modern language is more preferable, my dd has found that studying Russian has made learning German much easier.  Maybe studying German, another inflected language with cases and gender, will make the leap into Russian easier?  I just want to throw other options out there.

 

Also, no harm in her daughter learning the Russian alphabet, both spoken and written (cursive as well).  I am trying to think of ways to satisfy her daughter's yearning for learning a language that is so challenging to do on one's own. 

 

My 10yo really likes Latin, at this stage :D Thanks for the suggestion of introducing her to the Russian alphabet, that will help her to feel like she is getting started :) 

 

I had intentions of introducing German to them all this year as my 12yo and 8yo were keen to learn the language. Just haven't made time for it yet. So this is very helpful to know that German would help with Russian :)

[Flowergirl159]

So, what I meant by "as quickly as possible" was more like 3-6 months. Not "a year or so".  I totally agree with 8FillTheHeart's post. I think it is always hard to express exactly HOW MANY hours of commitment it really is to learn another language to high proficiency. She'll need to be spending a MINIMUM of 1h/day 7 days a week. Honestly, more would be better. 2-3 hours a day. 1 being (really good, intensive) grammar, the other 2 being TV and book reading.  Having this be her first foreign language is a real hurdle. 

 

Thank you! Do you have a suggestion for really good, intensive grammar?

[tdemauro]

Thanks for your response! Yes I agree that interest is a huge component to learning a language. My 12yo has not had a lot of interest in Latin, however loves learning other languages. She will be finishing Visual Latin this year and if she doesn't want to continue with Latin, that's fine with me. I am happy for her to use her language learning time on other languages that she is interested in. I will look into your suggestion, however, I won't be able to hire a tutor at this stage. Perhaps I could begin her with immersion in Russian so she can hear the language while she is still young.

 

You're welcome!  8filltheheart clarified that a tutor is not possible at this time...I missed that when reading the original post.  Red Kalinka offers self study video tutorials, ebooks, and other resources.  I am not sure if it is in your budget, but maybe you can look into their offerings.  It may be similar to Visual Latin set-up?  Here is their website: http://www.redkalinka.com/Learn-Russian-With-Us.html

 

Maybe your daughter can find a course on Memrise to learn vocab and get a feel for the spoken language aspect.  Bookbox has videos in a dozen languages, including Russia.  She could watch those in English to understand the story and then watch again in Russian.  http://www.bookbox.com/

 

Have you searched for podcasts that teach Russians, preferably by a native speaker?  Maybe they will have some free pdf worksheets to go along with it.

 

Another option is the FSI Russian language course since it is free.  http://www.fsi-language-courses.net/fsi-russian-language-course/

 

If I think of other resources, I will post them. 

[CadenceSophia]

I don't have middle school kids, nor any particular need to have text/teacher's manual in English so it is not an area I am familiar with. I am sure other ladies can give you better advice there.

 

The CLE series Grammaire Progressive du Français is awesome and goes all the way up through C1/C2 grammar but I doubt she can start there because it is all in French. Eventually those will be great books to have. 

 

The book I am using for Russian would probably be great, but it is from a French base. I hope you find something that works. In the mean time, you could start her on a page like this:   http://www.russianforeveryone.com/RufeA/Lessons/Introduction/Alphabet/Alphabet.htm 

Which has the cyrillic alphabet + cursive handwriting. This is the only page I have found that shows little videos of the stroke order.

[4KookieKids]

One progression that really helped my kids get in the language-mindset I wanted was the following:

1) Take all favorite or well known movies, and watch them in minority language. Several times.

2) Rip audio of minority language track on movie and burn to CDs or Ipod for car trips or listening to while cooking/cleaning/walking/etc.

3) Register with the minority language audible site (e.g., audible.fr) and start purchasing audio versions of her favorite books. Many mp3 players can play things slower if she would like to slow the audiobook down to help her register more of what is being said.

4) Transition to audiobooks that are more advanced and originally written in minority language (instead of translations of favorites that were presumably written in English still). When I want to stretch myself, I even (quickly) repeat the audiobook (i.e., it says a line, I repeat line under my breath, repeat).