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There might be some preferential packaging amg some schools, but it is a fallacy that they make things work for students they really want. 

 

This is not a fallacy.  I've seen it happen enough.  What can be a fallacy is someone thinking their student is really wanted.  When top students (score-wise, etc) are a dime a dozen, it's not just scores that do it.  It's other things (including geographical, etc) that stand out.  The school that wants kids from all 50 states and is missing ND will give that student a nice package.  If they have 20 from PA, they have options and probably don't have to spend as much.

 

Here in PA it seems that many private schools will offer enough to match state school costs.  Since our state schools don't meet need, this isn't terribly difficult.  In general, parents in this state need to be prepared to fund the equivalent of a state school - and can try privates to see if they match.  A private OOS (farther out) is likely to give more aid than local ones since most students want to stay local.

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This is not a fallacy. I've seen it happen enough. What can be a fallacy is someone thinking their student is really wanted. When top students (score-wise, etc) are a dime a dozen, it's not just scores that do it. It's other things (including geographical, etc) that stand out. The school that wants kids from all 50 states and is missing ND will give that student a nice package. If they have 20 from PA, they have options and probably don't have to spend as much.

 

Here in PA it seems that many private schools will offer enough to match state school costs. Since our state schools don't meet need, this isn't terribly difficult. In general, parents in this state need to be prepared to fund the equivalent of a state school - and can try privates to see if they match. A private OOS (farther out) is likely to give more aid than local ones since most students want to stay local.

I don't know anything about financial aid (though I'd love to know if parents' own student loans go into the calculation 😂) but I think schools are pretty open about their desire for geographic diversity. At the last school I attended lo so many years ago, they made the lone admit from...Iowa, I think? stand up to much applause and wonderment.
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I don't know anything about financial aid (though I'd love to know if parents' own student loans go into the calculation 😂) but I think schools are pretty open about their desire for geographic diversity. At the last school I attended lo so many years ago, they made the lone admit from...Iowa, I think? stand up to much applause and wonderment.

 

At one of the info sessions we attended the person speaking literally used the ND example...

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I think it depends on how you define "make it possible for you." If you are talking offering $5000 extra in grant $$ and lower amt in loans, that sort of preferential packaging does exist. Equally someone else might receive a soft reject by the school not offering any aid at all, anti-preferential packaging.

 

But, if your EFC is $35,000 and the school is a meets need, no-merit school, they are not going to provide a package where the parental contribution is now $18,000.

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I agree with the others.

 

It's a bit of a game where you won't find out the results for awhile. 

 

We got even less aid from the private schools than the public ones, and the public ones weren't at all close to what we hoped to pay from our own funds. We are loan-adverse for most undergraduate degrees.

 

Every school is different, and every family has different views on what they want to pay and/or borrow. 

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I don't know anything about financial aid (though I'd love to know if parents' own student loans go into the calculation 😂) .

I'm not totally positive, but iirc, I think I read on CC that parental student loan interest might be protected (not added back to your income), but that the debt itself does not factor into the calculation. That might be completely wrong, though. I just remember there was a conversation last yr about a family where the parents had huge student debt and their Dd did not qualify for aid.

 

That would be an easy question to post on the CC FA forum and get someone with accurate information to answer.

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But, if your EFC is $35,000 and the school is a meets need, no-merit school, they are not going to provide a package where the parental contribution is now $18,000.

 

Perhaps with no-merit schools.  Most schools offer merit aid and they indeed can go below EFC.  They just can't offer federal aid when they do so.

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Perhaps with no-merit schools. Most schools offer merit aid and they indeed can go below EFC. They just can't offer federal aid when they do so.

Then I agree with you. But the post I was responding to said private universities were famous for making it work and had started that post with a discussion about Cornell not altering FA. My entire response was in terms of tippy top, meets need, no merit schools. My sentence you quoted about preferential packaging followed a sentence stating non-merit, need aid only schools.

 

Otherwise, be in the top % of students and bring what they want, and yes, you will get more aid. It is exactly how my kids attend college. But, that strategy is not going to work at "privates" that don't offer merit.

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I don't get your idea that a student would waste money applying 8Fill.

 

To me the 100.00 is worth it.  If your student varies his or her options, and you never know what kind of packages you'll get (especially from Private U's), why not apply?

 

One of our best friends' daughter had this happen to her.  She applied to several expensive Christian private U's. She is poor, poor, on paper --below the poverty line.  (lived a good life because her mother is awesome and amazing with her stewardship, etc. etc.)...

 

This girl was offered so many different packages from WHEATON that she was going to be able to make it work!  I think being "poor" helped her, but also being a great student that they really wanted.  They threw numerous different packages, scholarships, etc. at her.  

 

The same thing happened with a college in TN...they had a scholarship weekend for all the top students they were recruiting and had numerous scholarships and coached the kids all weekend how to apply and what was available.  There was a main scholarship from the U itself, not them coaching them how to get outside scholarships.  She came away not getting "THE" scholarship but getting some other big one, that she didn't even know existed.  

 

She ended up taking the TN offer because it was even better than Wheaton and although she is an excellent student, (also also poor which helped with grants) it was all these other stuff they kept adding to the package that made her finally go there.

 

So, I don't get why this is a fallacy.  It happened this month to one of my best friend's daughter.

 

I am no expert and finances aren't my big talent in life.  But to me, it IS worth it to apply.  

 

And yes, being poor is never "better" overall...all I was saying is that, if you are poor, you will get more grants and less EFC, that's all I meant...that's all the OP meant.  Obviously no one here is advocating becoming poor as a life choice :)

 

 

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Perhaps with no-merit schools. Most schools offer merit aid and they indeed can go below EFC. They just can't offer federal aid when they do so.

So if our EFC is higher than COA, would my oldest still be eligible for automatic merit scholarship if he meets the stipulated criteria? Or is there priority based on qualifying applicants with the lowest EFC? We can full pay for private for oldest but have to start saving now for youngest as they are a year apart.

 

E.g the first webpage I found was UNF and oldest could potentially qualify for $24k spread over 4 years based on his SAT and ACT. He would have to retake again of course and meet the weighted GPA criteria.

http://www.unf.edu/admissions/scholarships/Freshman_Automatic_Scholarships.aspx

Edited by Arcadia
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Otherwise, be in the top % of students and bring what they want, and yes, you will get more aid. It is exactly how my kids attend college. But, that strategy is not going to work at "privates" that don't offer merit.

 

I know private colleges can work amazing things if they want someone.  Schools that don't offer sports scholarships can give awfully nice "other" packages to students who happen to be good at a sport...  

 

It wouldn't surprise me at all if a tippy top school (those have awesome endowments) would offer a decent package to a student they really wanted.  It's just that grades, etc, aren't out of the norm there - other things might be - and it wouldn't be called merit aid.

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I don't get your idea that a student would waste money applying 8Fill.

 

To me the 100.00 is worth it. If your student varies his or her options, and you never know what kind of packages you'll get (especially from Private U's), why not apply?

 

One of our best friends' daughter had this happen to her. She applied to several expensive Christian private U's. She is poor, poor, on paper --below the poverty line. (lived a good life because her mother is awesome and amazing with her stewardship, etc. etc.)...

 

This girl was offered so many different packages from WHEATON that she was going to be able to make it work! I think being "poor" helped her, but also being a great student that they really wanted. They threw numerous different packages, scholarships, etc. at her.

 

The same thing happened with a college in TN...they had a scholarship weekend for all the top students they were recruiting and had numerous scholarships and coached the kids all weekend how to apply and what was available. There was a main scholarship from the U itself, not them coaching them how to get outside scholarships. She came away not getting "THE" scholarship but getting some other big one, that she didn't even know existed.

 

She ended up taking the TN offer because it was even better than Wheaton and although she is an excellent student, (also also poor which helped with grants) it was all these other stuff they kept adding to the package that made her finally go there.

 

So, I don't get why this is a fallacy. It happened this month to one of my best friend's daughter.

 

I am no expert and finances aren't my big talent in life. But to me, it IS worth it to apply.

 

And yes, being poor is never "better" overall...all I was saying is that, if you are poor, you will get more grants and less EFC, that's all I meant...that's all the OP meant. Obviously no one here is advocating becoming poor as a life choice :)

The difference is that it isn't "privates." It depends on the school and what types of aid they offer. If a school does not offer any aid other than need based aid, the amt received is based on FA, not merit.

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So if our EFC is higher than COA, would my oldest still be eligible for automatic merit scholarship if he meets the stipulated criteria? Or is there priority based on qualifying applicants with the lowest EFC? We can full pay for private for oldest but have to start saving now for youngest as they are a year apart.

 

E.g the first webpage I found was UNF and oldest could potentially qualify for $24k spread over 4 years based on his SAT and ACT. He would have to retake again of course and meet the weighted GPA criteria.

http://www.unf.edu/admissions/scholarships/Freshman_Automatic_Scholarships.aspx

 

Yes.  All students are still eligible for merit awards - even if you make a gazillion dollars.  Those awards come from the school and they can do what they want to with their money.  The Federal Gov't sets the EFC.  A school can't go below your EFC (adjusted if one has special needs) and still offer federal aid to a student (except unsubsidized loans that are available to all up to a dollar amount).

 

This is how students get free rides to places.  The school wants them enough that they offer them their own money (not federal anything).  They don't have to be poor on paper or otherwise.  They have to be really wanted.

Edited by creekland
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So if our EFC is higher than COA, would my oldest still be eligible for automatic merit scholarship if he meets the stipulated criteria? Or is there priority based on qualifying applicants with the lowest EFC? We can full pay for private for oldest but have to start saving now for youngest as they are a year apart.

 

E.g the first webpage I found was UNF and oldest could potentially qualify for $24k spread over 4 years based on his SAT and ACT. He would have to retake again of course and meet the weighted GPA criteria.

http://www.unf.edu/admissions/scholarships/Freshman_Automatic_Scholarships.aspx

Yes, your child can receive automatics scholarships below your EFC if the school allows that policy.

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I know private colleges can work amazing things if they want someone. Schools that don't offer sports scholarships can give awfully nice "other" packages to students who happen to be good at a sport...

 

It wouldn't surprise me at all if a tippy top school (those have awesome endowments) would offer a decent package to a student they really wanted. It's just that grades, etc, aren't out of the norm there - other things might be - and it wouldn't be called merit aid.

People need to research schools and understand the policies before they apply thinking that they will get aid beyond their EFC.

 

For example, this is from Brown's website:

 

Q. Does Brown award merit-based financial aid, such as academic and athletic scholarships?

 

A. No. As a member of the Ivy League, Brown does not award academic or athletic scholarships. All financial aid awarded by Brown is need-based meaning that no factors are considered except the family's demonstrated financial need. Brown only takes into account a family's ability to pay before awarding any financial aid funds to a student.

 

In that case, it would be a waste of money to apply if you know that your calculated EFC is unaffordable.

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2. mom is re-entering the work force because the student was an only child, or

 

 

This is a good point that I forgot to mention - we have two kids, but I will be returning to work when the youngest enters college. Some families are double income all along, of course, but a lot of us on these boards are not. 

 

We know people with big mortgages, (expensive area) and 3 kids in college at the same time, including a set of twins. she's an eye Doctor and businessman...making good  money...

 

Despite financial stability, savings, excellent jobs, and a big salary, They couldn't meet the out of pocket requirements (EFC) for their girls and had to take out some parent loans, ---and their girls won significant scholarships and all chose the least expensive flagship state universities (despite being accepted to Cornell, etc.) because they just couldn't make it work.  But the financial aid powers to be expected them to pay literally thousands of dollars out of pocket for each girl, and wouldn't give them any more student loans because they had "too much assets" ...THEY LITERALLY told them to sell their house (and live where?)

 

You are absolutely, abysmally penalized for looking wealthy.  If you have retirement savings, they count that against you.  If you have a house, they will literally say, "Sell that because it is an asset and gets counted against you"....basically yes  not only is it "the poorer the better" but it is also actively hurting middle and upper middle class kids.  

 

BUT all that said, private universities are famous for trying to make up the difference and make it possible for you, if they want your student.  So you should ALWAYS apply, and see what happens, to any university you are interested in, since you never know.

 

I don't see why an affluent family would be surprised that they are expected to pay "thousands of out pocket" for each of their offspring to attend college? We aren't particularly affluent, and dd got an amazing scholarship, but we still pay thousands out of pocket, and certainly assume that we will do so for the next kid as well. 

 

Federal student loans are limited for EVERYONE. They can take out as many private student loans or other types of loans as they qualify for, which should be quite a bit with a good income and 'too many' assets. 

 

You say they were admitted to Cornell, but chose an inexpensive state school because that's what they could afford. Well, that's just the way it goes, really. Cornell is Ivy League, they are going to expect a family of means to make significant contributions (as it should be, imo). An elite education with vast resources is an expensive proposition. They most definitely expect you to pay a significant amount out of pocket, via savings, current income, and loans (sometimes called past, present, future). 

 

If you want your kids to go to a very expensive school, then yes, you might have to sell your house. And live where? In a less expensive house, lol. 

 

With Cornell stats, they certainly didn't need to default to the least expensive state school - there are lots of great public schools that would have offered them tremendous scholarship packages. There are many options for high stats kids with a good family income.

 

 

I don't get your idea that a student would waste money applying 8Fill.

 

To me the 100.00 is worth it.  If your student varies his or her options, and you never know what kind of packages you'll get (especially from Private U's), why not apply?

 

One of our best friends' daughter had this happen to her.  She applied to several expensive Christian private U's. She is poor, poor, on paper --below the poverty line.  (lived a good life because her mother is awesome and amazing with her stewardship, etc. etc.)...

 

This girl was offered so many different packages from WHEATON that she was going to be able to make it work!  I think being "poor" helped her, but also being a great student that they really wanted.  They threw numerous different packages, scholarships, etc. at her.  

 

The same thing happened with a college in TN...they had a scholarship weekend for all the top students they were recruiting and had numerous scholarships and coached the kids all weekend how to apply and what was available.  There was a main scholarship from the U itself, not them coaching them how to get outside scholarships.  She came away not getting "THE" scholarship but getting some other big one, that she didn't even know existed.  

 

She ended up taking the TN offer because it was even better than Wheaton and although she is an excellent student, (also also poor which helped with grants) it was all these other stuff they kept adding to the package that made her finally go there.

 

So, I don't get why this is a fallacy.  It happened this month to one of my best friend's daughter.

 

I am no expert and finances aren't my big talent in life.  But to me, it IS worth it to apply.  

 

And yes, being poor is never "better" overall...all I was saying is that, if you are poor, you will get more grants and less EFC, that's all I meant...that's all the OP meant.  Obviously no one here is advocating becoming poor as a life choice :)

 

I don't want to speak for 8, but what I took away from her post is that you can get a very good idea of what will be offered at elite schools by looking at the scholarship page and running the NPC. The only help they offer is grants. If the number is crazy high, it's just true that they will rarely offer substantially more. At schools that do not offer merit aid (which is what she was talking about), a $28,000 estimated cost is not going to turn into a $8,000 cost. You are talking about something different, schools that offer a mix of merit aid and grant aid. 

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8 is also in a different situation than a kid who is poverty-line poor.

 

The bigger the gap between the financial aid formula EFC and what your own personal budget says, the more carefully you need to hunt for your options.

 

"You never know exactly what the financial aid offer is until you go through the process" is true, but with research, you can ballpark it pretty well. Applying to college is a ton of work - tests, applications, essays, recommendations, etc. It's in your best interest to concentrate your efforts where they are most likely to pay off.

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So awful that that happened to your family. Did you have the scholarship offer in writing or was it part of the financial aid package and called an institutional scholarship? One caution is the unethical practices of some schools. These schools will call institutional grant money scholarships. FA is variable yr to yr and some schools are notorious for front loading freshman yr offers and gapping sophomore to sr yrs. (a horrible and unfair practice)

 

http://hechingerreport.org/in-a-college-bait-and-switch-financial-aid-often-declines-after-freshman-year-2/

https://www.usnews.com/education/best-colleges/paying-for-college/articles/2015/04/01/watch-out-for-front-loaded-financial-aid-packages

https://www.usnews.com/education/best-colleges/paying-for-college/articles/2015/06/16/10-colleges-where-upperclassmen-get-less-financial-help

 

Anything represented in a general FA offer is typically a yr by yr assessment. Otoh, admissions' scholarships are typically offered in writing as $x or in the value of tuition for 8 semesters as long as the following requirements are met (usually minimum GPA and full time enrollment.)

 

Wording is definitely key. Even scholarships offered as a fixed number can be more risky than scholarships in the value of tuition bc if costs go up, fixed numbers will leave you gapped unless the school has a fixed for 4 yr price guarantee (some are doing this now.)

First we got a letter saying that due to excessive costs, the school had decided to "rent" textbooks instead of having students purchase them to save money.  A few days later, we got a letter saying scholarships had been cut.  The next week, we got a letter saying that tuition had gone up.  Definitely a scrupulous practice, at best.  It coincided with dh losing his job, which they would not take into consideration.  I don't like the system...

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Our experience...

 

If you are a good student (not even top, but a mostly A's, some B's student with a few interesting extra curriculars) going to a solid, (certainly not top, but solid) generally in-state private liberal arts college (but this sometimes works for out-of-state, too), you can get a good merit scholarship that will pay at least half.  We counted on that, because even though my dh is on disability and I am not currently employed, we didn't qualify for any federal grants;  just loans.  

 

After that, it was actually pretty easy to get one or two extra scholarships from the school based on music, art, or sports.  (The mid-range private liberal arts colleges are looking for students who will be committed to these programs.)  After that, we apply for special circumstances scholarships due to our situation, which then gives us an extra scholarship above and beyond the others.  If I re-apply for this scholarship yearly, the amount is generally increased.

 

With our dd working in the summer and very part-time during the school year, she can earn her own spending money for the school year (for all extras).  What is left is about 1/4 of the total tuition/room & board cost, which we are able to pay monthly instead of one lump sum.

 

That's how it has worked for us, anyway.

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I don't want to speak for 8, but what I took away from her post is that you can get a very good idea of what will be offered at elite schools by looking at the scholarship page and running the NPC. The only help they offer is grants. If the number is crazy high, it's just true that they will rarely offer substantially more. At schools that do not offer merit aid (which is what she was talking about), a $28,000 estimated cost is not going to turn into a $8,000 cost. You are talking about something different, schools that offer a mix of merit aid and grant aid. 

 

Yes, this is what I was attempting to convey.  I think I have come up with a better way of explaining (which I am going to attempt to do in response to Calming Tea).

So, I've put all my college info into an Evernote so I don't have to explain it over and over...

 

8 is also in a different situation than a kid who is poverty-line poor.

 

The bigger the gap between the financial aid formula EFC and what your own personal budget says, the more carefully you need to hunt for your options.

 

"You never know exactly what the financial aid offer is until you go through the process" is true, but with research, you can ballpark it pretty well. Applying to college is a ton of work - tests, applications, essays, recommendations, etc. It's in your best interest to concentrate your efforts where they are most likely to pay off.

Evernote=Brilliant woman!!   :)

 

Yes, we are in a completely different situation than someone who is poverty-line poor, but at the same time, I suspect the % differential is probably equally hard for some families.  Full pay families would probably look at our expected contribution and think, "Wow!! That is such a bargain!!  Can you imagine an Ivy League education at that price??"  It doesn't mean the amt is anywhere close to being realistically affordable for our family.  Someone in our EFC range might look at the EFC of someone who is poor and think the exact same thing, but the feasibility for that poor family who is trying to factor in travel expenses, health insurance, and miscellaneous expenses on top of their EFC might feel as equally unable to bridge that gap as we do b/c their financial resources are just that much more limited.

 

.all I was saying is that, if you are poor, you will get more grants and less EFC, that's all I meant...that's all the OP meant.  

 

This is the point where I think confusion is occurring bc it is here (poor and less EFC) where I think the conversation gets muddied.  It all comes down to what schools you are talking about.

 

Take your two stories--dr/businessman and the single poor mom.  Their EFC means different things depending on the school being applied to.  It is not simply a matter of the poorer you are, the more grants you will get, and the less their EFC.  

 

Approximately 70 schools in the country are "meet need."  How that is exactly defined varies by school, but in broad (slightly inaccurate) terms, that means that the school will take the FAFSA EFC and the CSS Profile information and calculate their own institutional parental/student contribution.  Some have a no loan policy below a certain income.  Some don't.  So it is a bit more complicated than I am about to portray.  But for ease of explanation, I am going to create a 100% fictional scenario.

 

Let's say the cost of attendance at elite meets need school is $70,000.  The dr's family's EFC is determined to be $55,000.  The single mom's family is $5000.  Both of those numbers exclude the student contribution.  

 

The dr's dd is expected to contribute $5500 in loans, $3000 of summer employment.  That comes to $63,500.  The school offers an institutional scholarship or grant of $6500.  Now say that their dd is awarded an alumni scholarship from that school.  The scholarship is valued at $5,000.  Depending on the school, one of 2 things might happen.  At one school, the $6500 institutional grant is now reduced to $1500 and the $5000 alumni scholarship replaces the rest of the grant $$.  At another, they might allow the $5000 to replace part of the student expected contribution.  At most strictly meets need schools (like Cornell), you will see wording to the effect of 

  • "A named endowed scholarship does not change the total amount of financial aid awarded.
  • Funds awarded through endowed scholarships replace the amount of any Cornell grant or self-help component (loans and work-study) on a dollar-for-dollar basis based on fund restrictions."

In essence, their EFC as calculated by the school is what they will pay.

 

The single mom's EFC is $5000.  The dd receives a $5815 Pell grant, a $3000 FSEOG grant, $3000 work study, $3500 subsidized student loan, and the balance is covered by institutional scholarships or grants.  Say that dd receives an alumni scholarship of $25,000.  Again, the school might allow her work study or subsidized loans to be replaced, but the balance will simply swap places with the institutional grant $$ or she might lose the FSEOG $$ and have it replaced by part of the scholarship. That mother's $5000 is going to remain fixed. 

 

The ONLY way the parental contribution at these types of schools will ever be reduced is if an outside scholarship is received that exceeds ALL institutional support. Otherwise, the school will simply reduce the student need by the scholarship and there is zero parental net gain.

 

The above is the scenario you are going to see at most of your tippy top elites: Ivies, Stanford, MIT, etc.

 

Then you can switch to the opposite extreme type of school, an avg public university that does not meet need with a cost of attendance of $25,000 (let's pretend this school does not offer merit scholarships for the sake of simplicity.)  Those exact same to students will end up the virtually identical FA packages with the exception of Pell grant $$ and possibliy additional grant $$ that the school might have available for their very low income students.  The cost of the this school for the dr's family compared $ to $ % of income to the single mom's family is radically different.  EFC does not make any significant difference for the poor b/c the school does not meet need.  The dr's family's dd can take out her federal student loan.  The single mom's family received the fully subsidized portion of $3500 + $2000 in unsubsidized loan, $5815 Pell grant, $3000 work study, and a $500 state grant.  That total is $14,815.  This student faces a crisis though.  The work study $$ has to be earned.  It isn't there to pay the tuition or housing bills when they are due.  They are already facing a gap of over $10,000 between the grant $$ and federal loans.  This student's EFC did not actually mean much other than receiving a little over $6000 in grant $$.

 

Then you have the vast majority of schools that fall somewhere in between.  Those schools offer a mixture of merit and need based aid.  

 

 

So if our EFC is higher than COA, would my oldest still be eligible for automatic merit scholarship if he meets the stipulated criteria? Or is there priority based on qualifying applicants with the lowest EFC? We can full pay for private for oldest but have to start saving now for youngest as they are a year apart.

 

 

At most schools, need is not guaranteed to be met or need and merit are more blurred.  Take Vanderbilt as an example.  Vanderbilt meets need.  But Vanderbilt also has merit scholarships.  So at Vandy, unlike the earlier example above, scholarship $$ can take a student's cost below their EFC.  This is from Vandy's site:

"No, financial need is not a factor in the merit scholarship selection process. Because the number of merit scholarships is so limited, however, we strongly encourage students to apply for need-based financial aid as well. Over 40% of the 2015-2016 entering freshman class is receiving need-based financial aid to make Vanderbilt affordable. We are committed to meeting 100% of each admitted student’s demonstrated financial need."

 

Some of the competitive universities have extremely competitive scholarships that can even lead to full-ride coverage.  Robertson at Duke and UNC,  Stamps at several different universities, etc.  Those scholarship have nothing to do with EFC and everything to do with the qualifications of the student.  

 

Some schools have automatic scholarships like Alabama's guaranteed full tuition scholarship for a 32.  (Though ds told me yesterday that they are revamping their scholarship awards for next yr.)  

 

Some schools allow scholarships to stack; some don't.  That can matter significantly as well.  Bama allows non-admission scholarships to stack on top of admissions scholarships.  

 

Some schools waive out-of-state tuition for certain test scores.  Then they might start stacking scholarships on top of that.  J-rap's description at privates can also be found at publics.  

 

In the above scenarios, EFC is irrelevant. Those scholarships are based on merit. It is why katilac's comment about the dr/businessman's family is important.  If they had a dd who was able to be admitted to Cornell, that student had the stats to be eligible for competitive merit $$ at other schools.  That is where understanding how financial aid works and what type of school you are applying to.  For our family, applying to meets need only schools is a waste of time (do NOT underestimate the amt of time applying well takes) and $$.  We know up front we cannot afford our EFC.  Our kids' time is much better spent applying broadly to schools that offer merit scholarships that we estimate they are competitive to receive.  They can apply to a couple that are insanely competitive (like schools that offer 2 full-ride scholarships), several less competitive but still pretty intensely competitive (where maybe 50-100 kids are invited to compete for the scholarships at a scholarship weekend), and then automatic scholarship schools where they know they can afford to attend if nothing else is awarded at all.  (NMF scholarships are helpful for this last category.)

 

It really pays to spend time understanding the process and researching individual schools well before your student starts applying.  College application fatigue is a real thing.  They get sick of all the essays, interviews, etc.  Spending the time on the front end educating yourself as guidance counselor and financial aid counselor will lead to more options for your student when acceptances start rolling in.  An acceptance that you can't afford is really nothing more than a rejection in another package.  Understanding common data sets and where your student fits in a school's profile, reading the profiles of students who have been awarded competitive scholarships, and understanding how a school's financial aid and merit works will all lead to better application outcomes.

Edited by 8FillTheHeart
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Not wanting to quote such a long post, but just adding to 8's last, this is also why it can be super important for students who need finances to work out to apply to more than three schools (as in that other thread about the school wanting to limit applications).  One never knows how the aid is going to work out - merit - CSS - whatever.  One can know that at a school like Brown or Cornell it's extremely unlikely to get extra $$ unless you really do have a rare snowflake (and grades/scores/high accomplishments are not rare), but for other schools - thousands of them - there is an unknown factor.  For my relatively high achieving middle son, that unknown factor meant the difference of 33K per year that we were expected to pay (with basic student loans on top of that - but all schools he applied to included those).

 

You can't apply to thousands of schools, so need to whittle down.  It's worth it to do homework to come up with most likely options IME.  We are paying less than a quarter of what his school costs on paper... a significant amount still, but not nearly what it could be.  The total we needed to pay was the least of any of his six schools - including less than the automatic full tuition at U Alabama and Pitt (one of our state related schools).  However, I can't say they will come up with a package like he has for every high scoring Hive student.  He had some extras that made him wanted there (but that 33K expectation school didn't find noteworthy).

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I'm not totally positive, but iirc, I think I read on CC that parental student loan interest might be protected (not added back to your income), but that the debt itself does not factor into the calculation. That might be completely wrong, though. I just remember there was a conversation last yr about a family where the parents had huge student debt and their Dd did not qualify for aid.

 

That would be an easy question to post on the CC FA forum and get someone with accurate information to answer.

I was asking in gest; I happen to know exactly what's expected of us. 😳And our own loans should maybe be paid by then. Edited by madteaparty
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We end up talking past each other in these threads because paying for college means such different things to different people. To some it might mean that they only have $100,000 to spread over four years. To others it might mean that they are trying to scrape up a few thousand dollars to pay.

 

Likewise private schools very often can get in range of state flagships but most state flagships are still very expensive.

 

I don't really have much to add. Lots of good info here and I encourage people to just keep reading. It eventually starts to make more sense.

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Likewise private schools very often can get in range of state flagships but most state flagships are still very expensive.

 

This is the problem many students/parents face in my state (PA).  For many, loans do come into the picture TBH.  Such is life.  Granted, for some college is not the best path, but for others it is and not all that many get it for free.  Not all that many can save up all the $$ required.  Going to college is an investment that often pays off.  I know it was a different era, but my hubby graduated with over 5 digits in college loans.  We paid them off in 5 years and have been reaping the benefits ever since.  For us, it was important that our kids go to college (since they are capable, etc).  They feel the same way - even my youngest who wasn't sure at all about going to college after high school.  He's very grateful now as a junior with two standing job offers and having seen first hand just how many jobs (he likes) require a degree.

 

As an extra, we also wanted them to have four years at the same school (totally different experience than 2 + 2 --> CC to 4 year).  Not everyone wants that, but for us, it was also worth the investment both in what we paid and the basic loans they've taken on.

 

No regrets on that end here.  But I also have no regrets putting the time and effort in to finding affordable options they like(d).  I'd have had massive reservations about going into high 5 digits or 6 digits of debt when there are less expensive options.

 

YMMV

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We end up talking past each other in these threads because paying for college means such different things to different people. To some it might mean that they only have $100,000 to spread over four years. To others it might mean that they are trying to scrape up a few thousand dollars to pay.

 

Likewise private schools very often can get in range of state flagships but most state flagships are still very expensive.

 

I don't really have much to add. Lots of good info here and I encourage people to just keep reading. It eventually starts to make more sense.

Yes, this. We're all coming from different places.

 

It's starting to make sense. And it's depressing. Just sayin'

 

NY really needs to pass the governor's proposed free tuition plan. (Yeah, I know free's not really free, but it would be a huge help to our family)

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We end up talking past each other in these threads because paying for college means such different things to different people. To some it might mean that they only have $100,000 to spread over four years. To others it might mean that they are trying to scrape up a few thousand dollars to pay.

 

Likewise private schools very often can get in range of state flagships but most state flagships are still very expensive.

 

I don't really have much to add. Lots of good info here and I encourage people to just keep reading. It eventually starts to make more sense.

So very true. Budget really impacts the entire conversation.

 

Our family has had kids attend publics, not privates. Our oldest cost around $3500 per semester, iirc, with scholarships covering the remainder. Our current college student has multiple stacking scholarships and attends on full scholarship. Our 12th grader will be attending almost on full scholarship ($1000-$3000 short depending on room choice, food plan, and books). Both are flagships that offer large merit $$. The publics for them were way cheaper than their offers from privates.

 

(We equally have 2 whom we spent far more on bc they were not scholarship type students.)

Edited by 8FillTheHeart
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Thanks for that post, i really apreciate the time.

 

It's all pretty depressing If you ask me. :(

 

In our state it's the most competitive state in the nation. My kid has no hope of merit aid from

Our big Unis.

 

Privately, if he went to a really mid-tier school

He could get scholarships since he is high achieving. But, then he wouldn't get a job in his field.

 

So he will go to CC and transfer. My dd will

Take the same path.

Edited by Calming Tea
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Privately, if he went to a really mid-tier school

He could get scholarships since he is high achieving. But, then he wouldn't get a job in his field.

We all have to evaluate circumstances the way we see them, but the premise that attending a mid-tier school means not finding a job in a given field is not one that is a given. The main field where people stress name on diploma is finance. Even that is debatable. At one of the scholarship weekends we attended, one of the srs who majored in international business with a finance concentration gave a presentation and discussed all of the offers he has received.

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If you are a good student (not even top, but a mostly A's, some B's student with a few interesting extra curriculars) going to a solid, (certainly not top, but solid) generally in-state private liberal arts college (but this sometimes works for out-of-state, too), you can get a good merit scholarship that will pay at least half.

 

The in-state and out-of-stats distinction doesn't work quite like that at private liberal arts schools:

 

Schools in less desirable states are more likely to have scholarships. Everyone wants to go to California, so it's harder to hunt for discounts there.

 

Some schools are trying to expand their recruiting regions and will be more likely to give scholarships to out-of-state while trying to get their name out.

 

At least half is probably an overstatement as well. Half tuition or less is more common. Some schools give 90% or more of their students scholarships, but most of them are smaller amounts.

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In our state it's the most competitive state in the nation. My kid has no hope of merit aid from

Our big Unis.

 

Privately, if he went to a really mid-tier school

He could get scholarships since he is high achieving. But, then he wouldn't get a job in his field.

 

What state and what field?

 

Sometimes an out-of-state flagship can make sense. My second daughter is in a pretty niche field that tends to exist only at larger schools. There are merit awards for out-of-state students. Alabama is the poster child nationally, WUE can be a bargain in the west.

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We all have to evaluate circumstances the way we see them, but the premise that attending a mid-tier school means not finding a job in a given field is not one that is a given. The main field where people stress name on diploma is finance. Even that is debatable. At one of the scholarship weekends we attended, one of the srs who majored in international business with a finance concentration gave a presentation and discussed all of the offers he has received.

 

It is a given, for his field and in our area.  a given.  I know because my husband is a manager at the company my son aims for.  It's a total given.

He won't even get an interview if he goes to a mid tier college/uni

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Schools in less desirable states are more likely to have scholarships. Everyone wants to go to California, so it's harder to hunt for discounts there.

 

Some schools are trying to expand their recruiting regions and will be more likely to give scholarships to out-of-state while trying to get their name out.

 

 

  Good point!  Makes sense.

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WUE can be a bargain in the west.

 

Example of one through WUE:  a CA student can attend Colo State Univ at Ft Collins for 20k tuition/35k COA, before automatic scholarships (among others, a 3.8 and 29 act = 10k automatic scholarship, bringing COA down to 25k).

 

That's still expensive for many people's budgets; there are much cheaper deals out there through WUE and full tuition/full rides for high scores for OOS students at some schools.  I just thought of Ft Collins because many kids view the location as quite desirable.  I know someone attending for engineering with very high scores - could have gone elsewhere, but his deal was too good to pass up.

 

ETA, I wonder whether many CA students even know about WUE?  I don't see it discussed much compared to the CA state colleges.

 

Montana State U at Bozeman and University of New Mexico are bargains too.  See the list here which doesn't include auto scholarships: http://wiche.edu/info/wue/WUEsavingsChart.pdf  Scholarships for OOS students at UNM:  https://scholarship.unm.edu/scholarships/non-resident.html

Edited by wapiti
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Wow! Thanks for all the info and explanation in this post, 8! And your other very informative posts throughout this thread.

 

 

The ONLY way the parental contribution at these types of schools will ever be reduced is if an outside scholarship is received that exceeds ALL institutional support. Otherwise, the school will simply reduce the student need by the scholarship and there is zero parental net gain.

 

Some schools allow scholarships to stack; some don't... [stacking] allows non-admission [outside] scholarships to stack on top of admissions [inside] scholarships.  

 

Just putting these two thoughts of yours TOGETHER, to make sure families understand that helpful the first quote is true *when a college does NOT allow stacking* (the concept in the second quote).

 

When a school DOES allow stacking of scholarships, parental net contribution IS reduced, as the outside scholarship is applied *without* reducing the college's contribution.

 

:)

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My best advice would be to keep reading stories of how people pay for college. Ask lots of questions. Run the net price calculators on the college websites as it'll give you an idea of automathic grants and scholarships (sometimes). Look around at all sorts of options.

Apply for scholarships. 

 

Do you know of a good scholarship list?

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At one of the scholarship weekends we attended, one of the srs who majored in international business with a finance concentration gave a presentation and discussed all of the offers he has received.

So that would be a red flag, in my view. Every school has one superstar that beats the odds. Unless your own kid is made of such superstar material (as yours are, eight), then it doesn't matter at all where they go to school, and I'm not at all interested in anectodes because...odds.

There were only two people, over several then-recent undergrad classes, back in the day, that were admitted to grad schools ranked a certain rank. Profs would drag us out for presentations, too. Pretty silly.

Edited by madteaparty
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We know people with big mortgages, (expensive area) and 3 kids in college at the same time, including a set of twins. she's an eye Doctor and businessman...making good money...

 

Despite financial stability, savings, excellent jobs, and a big salary, They couldn't meet the out of pocket requirements (EFC) for their girls and had to take out some parent loans, ---and their girls won significant scholarships and all chose the least expensive flagship state universities (despite being accepted to Cornell, etc.) because they just couldn't make it work. .

UCB's cost of attendance for staying in residence hall is $34,400

Multiplying that by 3 kids in college simultaneously is going to cost $103,200 which would be a hardship for many people. It is like paying full tuition for three kids at Harker School or Quarry Lane School or Neuva School (even though 3 kids simultaneously at those schools would cost more than the UCs).

 

Big mortgage and 3 kids in college at the same time are going to be a financial pinch for most people. People in my city are likely to have big mortgages. They won't told to sell but to take out HELOC as all the properties in my area are having equity. The sales prices for the past two years has exceeded the previous property boom.

 

A family friend's husband works for Google and their single family house was bought for about million in 2011 (which is a low price). She went back to work full time when her youngest entered public middle school and she has a 4 year gap between her two kids. Full pay for one kid at a time isn't so painful. Her husband still have some Google stocks to liquidate too. Her oldest is in 10th grade.

 

Another family friend couple bought their single family home when property prices were low ($500k), before 2004 and it is all paid up. Their first home was a condo which they sold at a slight profit since they didn't want to be landlords and wait for property price to go up. Their kids are 6 years apart and their family income is above $250k which would still be in the middle income range for our region. Paying full for an Ivy or for nearby Stanford for each of their children won't be a hardship if their kids get in assuming no layoffs. Her oldest is in 7th grade.

 

My kids are a year apart. It is now between buying a bigger condo and having a mortgage all over again or save that money to pay for college for both kids.

It is a given, for his field and in our area. a given. I know because my husband is a manager at the company my son aims for. It's a total given.

He won't even get an interview if he goes to a mid tier college/uni

Employee referrals works for tech companies in our region. Edited by Arcadia
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UCB's cost of attendance for staying in residence hall is $34,400

Multiplying that by 3 kids in college simultaneously is going to cost $103,200 which would be a hardship for many people. It is like paying full tuition for three kids at Harker School or Quarry Lane School or Neuva School (even though 3 kids simultaneously at those schools would cost more than the UCs).

 

Big mortgage and 3 kids in college at the same time are going to be a financial pinch for most people. People in my city are likely to have big mortgages. They won't told to sell but to take out HELOC as all the properties in my area are having equity. The sales prices for the past two years has exceeded the previous property boom.

 

A family friend's husband works for Google and their single family house was bought for about million in 2011 (which is a low price). She went back to work full time when her youngest entered public middle school and she has a 4 year gap between her two kids. Full pay for one kid at a time isn't so painful. Her husband still have some Google stocks to liquidate too. Her oldest is in 10th grade.

 

Another family friend couple bought their single family home when property prices were low ($500k), before 2004 and it is all paid up. Their first home was a condo which they sold at a slight profit since they didn't want to be landlords and wait for property price to go up. Their kids are 6 years apart and their family income is above $250k which would still be in the middle income range for our region. Paying full for an Ivy or for nearby Stanford for each of their children won't be a hardship if their kids get in assuming no layoffs. Her oldest is in 7th grade.

 

My kids are a year apart. It is now between buying a bigger condo and having a mortgage all over again or save that money to pay for college for both kids.

Employee referrals works for tech companies in our region.

Exactly. To be honest I think some states are so specific and some regions are so different from the rest of the world these conversations start to lose meaning.

 

---you can't refer your own kid :) although maybe someone else can do it outside his org :)

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Exactly. To be honest I think some states are so specific and some regions are so different from the rest of the world these conversations start to lose meaning.

 

The financial background situation is different in different geographic areas, which is going to affect availability of financial aid.  However, it pays to consider the bigger picture, all the options that might be available, including looking beyond your own state's borders for colleges.  (For example, while CA is a big place, the world of college options really is much bigger than CA.)

Edited by wapiti
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I've been following this as ds is a junior this year and I am overwhelmed with everything at the moment.

 

I have a question regarding the net price calculators, though. Some of the colleges send me to the college board NPC and others have their own. Are both of these pretty accurate? The colleges that have their own on their websites are showing aid but not nearly enough for ds to attend. The ones that take me to the CB NPC are showing aid that would cover almost all expenses, so I'm really wondering if those are at all accurate. 

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So that would be a red flag, in my view. Every school has one superstar that beats the odds. Unless your own kid is made of such superstar material (as yours are, eight), then it doesn't matter at all where they go to school, and I'm not at all interested in anectodes because...odds.

There were only two people in my undergrad class, back in the day, that were admitted to grad schools ranked a certain rank. Profs would drag us out for presentations, too. Pretty silly.

I disagree. Most people are blinded by elite name recognition. Most people either are unaware or don't really accept that USCarolina's undergrad IB program has been ranked #1 in the country for 18 yrs.

 

Additionally, kids who are competitive enough to be admitted to top programs, the ones where supposedly name of school opens all the doors, are the very kids who can shine at mid-tier schools. My personal POV on the matter is that is far better to be a top student at an avg school than just another student at a top school.

 

Of course, my POV is totally NOT objective bc my kids can't afford top schools, anyway. ;)

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ETA, I wonder whether many CA students even know about WUE? I don't see it discussed much compared to the CA state colleges.

There is very little cost savings for WUE for us compare to staying in-state. The example COA of $25k you gave would be higher than the nearest commuter state university for us.

 

San Jose State U which is within commuter distance to us has a cost of attendance of $17,210 (including $4,968 for room and board with parents). We are not going to charge our kids rent to attend a commuter university so food (lunch, snack, dinner) would cost each child about $20/day during term time estimating on the high side since one kid is a picky eater. Insurance is a non-issue since the university is only 8 miles away and kids can stay on our insurance (unless the law changes again). If they get a summer internships near to SJSU, they can definately stay home rent free. Internships in my area pay well.

 

CalPoly SLO has a cost of attendance of $26,148 for in-state staying on/off campus. They are a three hours drive south of us so no air fare required for kids to come home for term breaks. I'm assuming insurance won't be a problem as kids are still in-state but they would just need to locate in-network doctors near to campus.

Edited by Arcadia
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Do you know of a good scholarship list?

 

Remember that most financial aid comes from the federal government (Pell grants and student loans), next comes the schools themselves (the hunt for schools that offer merit aid), and not even close in third (2-4 percent of funds depending on who is measuring) is so-called "outside" scholarships. And many of these outside scholarships are for very small amounts (1000) or are highly competitive (you have to be the best in America to get a Coca-Cola scholarship, for example).

 

The game is won or lost when you build your school list. Do not start with outside scholarship lists. Start with knowing your EFC versus your budget, then focusing on need-based or merit-based aid schools or a combination as appropriate to your individual situation.

 

diycollegerankings.com - read the archives of this blog to learn tons about merit aid

mykidscollegechoice.com - sells a list of full tuition school-based scholarships

http://wiselikeus.com/collegewise/2017/03/how-to-search-for-scholarships-safely.html

Edited by JanetC
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---you can't refer your own kid :) although maybe someone else can do it outside his org :)

"Barter trade" employee referrals (sad but true, which parent won't give their kids a leg up by legal means). My kids aren't interested in my husband's current employer so no headache for us there.

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There is very little cost savings for WUE for us compare to staying in-state. The example COA of $25k you gave would be higher than the nearest commuter state university for us.

 

FWIW, that's potentially the most expensive one; I just identified it because it's a popular location.  Many others are much cheaper.  UNM can be almost free (for certain scores, 18k scholarship on a WUE COA of 23-ish k, bringing cost down to 5k).  I often get the sense that, due to population, there is a certain amount of difficulty getting into some CA state colleges and/or graduating on time due to course availability and such that I wonder whether WUE schools in less-populous states might be more smoothly-navigated, i.e., a better experience for the price.

 

(As I say all this, we have the irony that one or more of my kids will want to attend college in CA - if they do, it would probably be a private.)

Edited by wapiti
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I've been following this as ds is a junior this year and I am overwhelmed with everything at the moment.

 

I have a question regarding the net price calculators, though. Some of the colleges send me to the college board NPC and others have their own. Are both of these pretty accurate? The colleges that have their own on their websites are showing aid but not nearly enough for ds to attend. The ones that take me to the CB NPC are showing aid that would cover almost all expenses, so I'm really wondering if those are at all accurate. 

 

Remember that Net Price Calculators return a net price, not an EFC. It could be that the CB schools are schools that meet a higher percentage of need than the non-CB ones.

 

CB NPC's are based on the institutional methodology. This methodology usually results in a higher EFC, not a lower one. The big exceptions are: if you do not own a home or if your assets are low for your zip code (CB has a cost-of-living adjustment).

 

Run the college board EFC estimator here:

https://bigfuture.collegeboard.org/pay-for-college/paying-your-share/expected-family-contribution-calculator

 

Schools that return Net Prices close to your EFC are being generous. Those that are higher than your EFC know that you could use more money, they just won't give it to you.

 

EFC estimators and NPC estimators are often mistaken in cases of divorce or family-owned businesses. Be sure to talk to the financial aid office directly in that case.

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We know people with big mortgages, (expensive area) and 3 kids in college at the same time, including a set of twins. she's an eye Doctor and businessman...making good  money...

 

Big mortgages NEVER qualify you for more financial aid. Ever. It is considered voluntary debt. You could have chosen to rent or live in a cheaper house. Ditto car loans, credit cards, etc.

 

The only debt that counts towards more aid is INVOLUNTARY debt, which means medical debt or debt incurred to pay living expenses during unemployment.

 

Yes, they absolutely expect families to have a lower standard of living while putting their kids through college. Did you see my evernote about "poverty level from 1960"?

 

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