If you pretty much agree with John Taylor Gatto...

[shinyhappypeople]

...that institutionalized schooling (and public schools in particular) is inherently dysfunctional, what's the best way to communicate this to a young teen?  I tend to agree with him.  It's the biggest reason I homeschool, even though I'd never even read or listened to JTG until much later.  

 

Edited March 13, 2017 by shinyhappypeople

[Peaceseeker]

Why not have them read one of his books for themselves and have a book discussion?

[Guest]

Why not have them read one of his books for themselves and have a book discussion?

 

I agree. Have him read Dumbing Us Down. If he gets really interested,  buy him copy (you can find them still on Amazon new and used) of The Underground History of American Education. 

 

As an aside, JTG is what started me on the direction of homeschooling. I was completely frustrated by our *excellent* public school system and couldn't figure out the logic behind most of their reasonings on things. Being the nerd that I am, I started researching "the history of American public school education," which is by the way not as easy to research as you would think- I think they want it this way, and found JTG. I was hoping to find logic behind the ways of the public school. Instead I found things I never dreamed of and a whole new lifestyle for our family. 

 

They're powerful books. I say just let them speak for themselves and see what his thoughts are after he's read the first one. 

[Bluegoat]

Yup, read them himself.

 

That's the age I started reading John Holt.  THough, once I went to university, it changed my views in some significant ways.

[fralala]

The first answer that came to my head was, "Send them to school." :laugh:

 

Seriously, though, the PPs have good advice-- I haven't read JTG in years, and my brain is sleep-deprived mush so I really can't remember how readable it would be for a young teen, but another option is to get Nicholson Baker's book The Substitute, which is highly entertaining and perceptive . Even just reading a chapter or two could be the start of a great discussion.

[justasque]

...that institutionalized schooling (and public schools in particular) is inherently dysfunctional, what's the best way to communicate this to a young teen?  I tend to agree with him.  It's the biggest reason I homeschool, even though I'd never even read or listened to JTG until much later.  

<OP - this is more of a vent than an answer to your question - please don't take it personally - I"m sharing it, as my immediate reaction to your question, to contribute thoughts around the issue in general, but it may not be relevant to your situation>

My first question would be why do you want to teach this, and what is the teen's experience with public schools and institutionalized schooling?  

 

I'm a huge proponent of the many advantages of homeschooling, including all kinds of advantages to informal learning, especially for younger children, as well as self-teaching throughout one's lifetime.  However, I am a little wary of always-homeschooled teens who have been taught the negatives about institutional school without also getting a sense of the positives that can be found in a thoughtfully-run school that has a well-thought-out philosophy of education and the freedom to implement it.  (Especially if they have been taught "school is bad" by parents who make a good living based on skills and credentials they got from institutional schooling.) 

 

I've read Gatto's work, and heard him speak.  He has some good things to say - quite a bit that I agree with - but he is decidedly on one side of a wide spectrum of ideas and experiences, and especially for a younger teen I'd want to put his thoughts in context.  

 

Sometimes school of one kind or another is a good choice for a particular person in a particular set of circumstances.  By understanding the pros and cons of a wider variety of educational philosophies and settings, one can be empowered to seek out and choose educational options that may be a good fit for specific needs or desires at any given time, with full awareness of the trade-offs involved (and therefore a certain motivation and stamina to endure the negative side of those trade-offs should it be worthwhile, big-picture-wise).  

 

My goal would be more to educate and empower the teen to make choices for their future that will help them both attain their goals and also enjoy walking the path towards those goals, even if that path includes some less than ideal settings or circumstances.  So yes, go ahead and teach Gatto, and Holt, and all of their wonderful peers.  But consider also adding in some works about positive experiences with public/institutional schooling.  

[Guest]

The first answer that came to my head was, "Send them to school." :laugh:

 

Seriously, though, the PPs have good advice-- I haven't read JTG in years, and my brain is sleep-deprived mush so I really can't remember how readable it would be for a young teen, but another option is to get Nicholson Baker's book The Substitute, which is highly entertaining and perceptive . Even just reading a chapter or two could be the start of a great discussion.

 

You know there's something to that though......I do think some people have to experience things for themselves, no matter how overwhelming the evidence presented. You're going to have to update us on his thoughts if he reads it. 

 

At the time I was in high school I didn't see much of an issue with public school. (Of course zero tolerance and lot of other things hadn't started yet and the school administrations were still allowed to use some common sense). It wasn't until much after the fact that I realized a lot of what went on there was NOT beneficial at all to any student. But I was an easy student- I made good grades easily, and everyone told me I went to one of the best high schools in the state, so I assumed everything was hunky dory. I followed the steps and went right on through grad school. It wasn't until a couple of years later I started feeling a bit sold out by the adults who had told me for 20 years that's what I was supposed to do and I realized working for someone else wasn't the great thing to strive for. I think JTG could give a teen a lot to think about in the way that, high school, college, job working for some schmuck company or school district or fill in the blank isn't necessarily the only course of life to pursue. That is an extremely radical concept for a lot of people to ponder. I think it's pretty cool you're talking about this stuff with him. 

[shinyhappypeople]

Thank you :) 

 

Has anyone here read The Teenage Liberation Handbook? 

 

I don't know how engaging she'd find Dumbing Us Down or Underground History of American Education <--- my favorite.  But, then again, maybe I'm underestimating her. I might try anyway, as the audiobooks are both on hoopla.

 

fralala, thanks for mentioning The Substitute!  I found it on hoopla, too, and am enjoying it so far :) 

[Farrar]

I've read The Teenage Liberation Handbook.

 

It's more of a practical guide and source of encouragement than a treatise against institutional education like Gatto's work. There is some of the "why institutionalized schooling is bad" stuff in there, but more in a pro-unschooling, learning through life kind of way than in a systematic critique of schooling itself kind of way.

 

I personally have mixed feelings about Gatto's views and work, but I do think it's worth reading Dumbing Us Down for anyone who is interested in education generally, just because it's a thought-provoking book.

[Rebel Yell]

Yup, read them himself.

 

That's the age I started reading John Holt.  THough, once I went to university, it changed my views in some significant ways.

Mindif I ask how your views have changed?

PM me if you prefer

[Thismare89]

 I think that so. return man 3 unblocked

Edited September 6, 2017 by Thismare89