How do they know?

[kfeusse]

This might seem like a really dumb question...but I was really curious about something.  Another homeschooling family close to us doesn't take their job as seriously as we do in our home, and they have high schoolers who are college bound.  The mom was talking to me about filing out transcripts and how she might sort of fudge on some information like, Biology with labs....she told me they sort of did some of the labs, but not all of them...but she still planned on putting "Biology with labs" on her child's transcript.  Granted this child is not a STEM student, so the fact that they didn't do the labs won't really matter as far as future studies...but my question is....how will the college know that she fudged on that information?  or will they? and does it really matter...other than the fact that she is misrepresenting her child's high school science?

 

Does that make sense?

 

thanks.

 

 

[8filltheheart]

The kids will know when they start college and can't handle their classes.

 

For schools where admissions is competitive, they will look at test scores including subject test scores to see if there is a discrepancy.

[Julie of KY]

I don't think colleges know for sure. They know some do fudge, just as some brick and mortar high schools fudge. Ultimately, I think colleges rely on test scores to validate that the kids have learned and are capable of continuing to learn in college. If it's important to your degree, the student will learn it at some point.

Edited March 10, 2017 by Julie of KY

[regentrude]

The  college will not know. A parent could put blatant lies on the transcript.

But it does matter:

The college might become suspicious when the student's test scores are not matching up to glowing mommy grades.

The child will know that he got into college with a dishonest transcript (don't parents think what that does to a young person's sense of self??? )

The child will know when he finds himself unprepared for the college courses.

 

 

 

Edited March 10, 2017 by regentrude

[regentrude]

If it's important to your degree, the student will learn it at some point.

 

or they will not and flunk out of the degree program.

[kfeusse]

her argument is that her child is not going into a science field, and the required science classes in college are so basic that it simply won't matter.  

[8filltheheart]

If the student doesn't know how to do a lab or write a lab report, it will matter.

[regentrude]

her argument is that her child is not going into a science field, and the required science classes in college are so basic that it simply won't matter.  

 

She is modeling some strange ethics for her student. THAT would concern me most. It is basically telling the kid "we did not care to educate you or we did not think you could hack it, so we're just lying on your transcript and that's fine. You cannot be proud of the work you did but have to lie."

and "you're such a special snowflake that rules don't apply to you".

 

Required science classes may be easy, or they may not. That's not the point. The point is that she is modeling lying to her kid as a valid way of getting through life.

[swimmermom3]

This might seem like a really dumb question...but I was really curious about something.  Another homeschooling family close to us doesn't take their job as seriously as we do in our home, and they have high schoolers who are college bound.  The mom was talking to me about filing out transcripts and how she might sort of fudge on some information like, Biology with labs....she told me they sort of did some of the labs, but not all of them...but she still planned on putting "Biology with labs" on her child's transcript.  Granted this child is not a STEM student, so the fact that they didn't do the labs won't really matter as far as future studies...but my question is....how will the college know that she fudged on that information?  or will they? and does it really matter...other than the fact that she is misrepresenting her child's high school science?

 

Does that make sense?

 

thanks.

 

My son isn't a STEM student. All students at his university are required to take 2 science courses as part of their General Education requirements: one with a lab and one without.  He was pretty happy to have 4 years of lab experience behind him.  Yes, you can learn the skills that you should have already learned before you got to college, but it makes the transition even harder.

 

Also, many colleges require placement exams so for any student with "fudged" transcripts it becomes apparent when you take the tests. If you have a transcript with "A's" in Calculus, but your placement exam scores you into precalculus, the school knows.

 

 

The kids will know when they start college and can't handle their classes.

 

For schools where admissions is competitive, they will look at test scores including subject test scores to see if there is a discrepancy.

 

Absolutely!  Several of the schools that Sailor Dude applied to had moved to test-optional in the past year or two. We still submitted a ton of test scores anyway. ACT math scores lined up with SAT Subject Math I score and they both made sense in light of his math grades and the university's placement exam. Spanish grades were confirmed with placement exam.  AP Biology grades of C, then B were confirmed with a 3 on the AP exam and a 730 on the SAT Subject test.  His top notch ACT English score was reflected in grades, AP exams, and a SAT Subject exam.  I made sure that we had a test score in every discipline. 

 

I really worried the last two years of high school about ds's work load and the impact on his GPA. I didn't know if we were taking the right path.  It turns out his reading and writing load for college is exactly on par with the workload of 4-5 AP/honors courses.

 

ETA: I am an accidental homeschooler with two kids that went through the school system and I am a huge worrier. Exams eased some of that anxiety.  This isn't the best plan for everyone. My dd would have absolutely wilted under the testing schedule - Sailor Dude doesn't care much.

Edited March 10, 2017 by swimmermom3

[regentrude]

If the student doesn't know how to do a lab or write a lab report, it will matter.

 

I don't think so; since colleges cannot be sure a student had a certain lab science, instruction will usually start without the assumption of any prior knowledge.

Certainly what we require for lab reports in intro courses is something a  halfway intelligent and literate student can figure out without prior lab report experience.

And the OP's student will only have to take science-for-poets.

 

But still, that is not the main point.

Edited March 10, 2017 by regentrude

[teachermom2834]

I have been thinking this through myself. I have to cram in some biology labs for my 11th grader this year to call it a lab science. This kid is doing mostly dual enrollment and just slogging through a couple last classes at home.He is not planning on taking hard lab sciences in college. He is a very bright kid planning to go to a pretty average college. I think he will be able to get through whatever labs he has for his required gen ed sciences even if we don't do those biology labs we need to.

 

He has done the written work to my satisfaction and the only reason we are doing the labs is so he has that third lab science. It is totally about integrity for me. I think he would do fine without them.

 

Now, there are other subjects that I know fudging a transcript would be apparent. I just don't think this is one. The other side of that is that traditional school students are sometimes unprepared in a particular area. The school or student didn't fudge the transcript, the course was just poor. That must happen all the time.

 

In the case of my kid and his destination and transcript I do not think anyone would know that the lab portion of the course was fudged on the transcript. But ds and I would know and that is why we will do enough to feel truthful.

[Julie of KY]

I don't think you should misrepresent anything on your transcript, but I know it happens sometimes. 

 

Ultimately, it's the students that have to live with the consequences of not having learned certain material or to a certain level.

[swimmermom3]

I don't think so; since colleges cannot be sure a student had a certain lab science, instruction will usually start without the assumption of any prior knowledge.

Certainly what we require for lab reports in intro courses is something a  halfway intelligent and literate student can figure out without prior lab report experience.

And the OP's student will only have to take science-for-poets.

 

But still, that is not the main point.

 

Is that really how all survey courses are for science?

 

Ds took Physics 100: Introduction to Modern Physics. It used the Hewitt book so he was a little disappointed in thinking that it would be really basic. He met the math requirement for this one, but only has precalculus and stats. He ended up loving the class and was surprised that of all the Gen Ed science courses with lab, the physics classes were the only ones not full. He hadn't done physics since 9th grade and said the labs were excellent, but he still had to put in the work.

 

[marbel]

I don't think so; since colleges cannot be sure a student had a certain lab science, instruction will usually start without the assumption of any prior knowledge.

Certainly what we require for lab reports in intro courses is something a  halfway intelligent and literate student can figure out without prior lab report experience.

And the OP's student will only have to take science-for-poets.

 

But still, that is not the main point.

 

I don't think people should lie on transcripts.

 

But Regentrude's comment reminded me of my own experience.  I took the bare minimum of science required to get out of my public high school.  I hated it. IIRC (and it was a long time ago) our labs were pretty simple.   Dissecting a worm.  Maybe a frog - I have a vague memory of once claiming to be sick from the smell of the formaldehyde and was excused to the hall to read.    But I got my credit in Biology or maybe it was just called "Life Science."

 

When I went to college, I was invited to a special science program for liberal arts honors students.  It was a year of fun, fluff science. We did some labs.  We went to the beach.  I tolerated it and then moved on.

 

"Science-for-poets" is a beautiful name for it.  

 

But I also understand that many public high schools have minimal labs, and sometimes use virtual labs instead of the real thing.  

 

Still, no one should lie on a transcript.   Sciences without labs are called "conceptual," aren't they?  

[kfeusse]

so, just wondering...if she had her child watch some labs on you tube or something, could she call them virtual labs?  And would that be acceptable to most colleges?  especially if they don't specifically say no virtual labs?  I was trying to see if I could give her an option so she doesn't have to lie on the transcript if getting the materials and doing the labs are just too much.  I bet I could find a generic lab report form too, that could be used, right?

[Tess in the Burbs]

This is where I debate how much to put into our schooling some days.  I plan to be honest on the transcript.  My son is doing Environmental Science this year.  We did a few labs in the beginning but they were boring.  He's done all the online virtual investigations and we will do a few more labs before we are done, but I wasn't planning to list it as a lab class b/c in my mind we didn't do a lot of labs, and certainly nothing fancy/special.  Maybe I need to give ourselves some slack...  

 

This is where more guidance on what is expected for high school level classes from the colleges would be helpful.  If they want a lab science, then how many labs and how deep do they need to be?  It seems like there is such a grey area for homeschoolers and high school classes and how we can count something or not on a transcript...  But I have no intentions of lying.  Sad for those kids.  

[Bristayl]

How many labs did they do? If they really did "some labs but not all," they may be able to put "with labs" without lying.

 

But her willingness to lie is still a concern, regardless of whether colleges will know.

[Bootsie]

Unless they have video cameras in her house, there is no way that they will know for sure.  But, the children are learning that checking boxes is more important than honesty.  

 

However, the university also does not know for sure that any student from any school really did what is on the transcript.  Neighbor's child took biology with labs at community college--the professor was sick, had a death in the family, etc. all semester--only one lab was held--the students walked around campus discussing which muscles they were using in different activities.  Child has dual credit for biology with lab appearing on transcript.

[kfeusse]

I don't think she wants to lie...but is feeling like in order for her child to have a "good transcript" she feels like she has no choice.  Up to this point, as far as I know, the child has no idea that the mom was thinking about doing this...that is why I was wondering if I could suggest an alternative that would be better than nothing.  

 

I have no idea just how many labs were done...I could find out for sure.  One thing I do know, is that the labs weren't very good in the program she chose and to her they seemed sort of dumb....and useless and the kid was learning the concept without the labs. 

 

 

[GoodGrief]

The colleges don't have a way to know. It could come up in interviews, possibly, if there are inconsistencies in the transcript and the student's "story" as presented elsewhere in the admission process, but that's unlikely.

 

Unfortunately, this is why many schools still rely heavily on standardized testing. It's an attempt to compare apples to apples. This is not just an issue with homeschooled students; certainly there are variances among various schools and classes. Biology is not biology is not biology. The colleges have to have some means, however imperfect, to compare students.

[regentrude]

Sciences without labs are called "conceptual," aren't they?  

 

No, "Conceptual" has nothing to do with lab or not lab, but with math or no math.

 

You can simply have "Science". You don't have to mention a lab if you didn't do one.

[EKS]

her argument is that her child is not going into a science field, and the required science classes in college are so basic that it simply won't matter.  

 

You never know what a kid will do.

 

I was a "humanities type" (in my geophysics professor father's words) all through high school.  I failed every high school math course and had to retake it with the exception of Algebra II, where I got a D.  I only took biology (regular biology, marine biology, botany, and AP biology) in high school because it was the "easy" science (and because I didn't have the math to deal with the others).  I wrote and painted and made music.  I was most definitely *not* going into science.

 

And then I decided to major in biochemistry.

[Bootsie]

No, "Conceptual" has nothing to do with lab or not lab, but with math or no math.

 

You can simply have "Science". You don't have to mention a lab if you didn't do one.

The public high schools in our area do not list whether a science class has a lab.  They are simply listed as biology, chemistry, etc.  In university work, where there are often 2 separate grades, it is more common to see that.  

 

FWIW, I did not put "with lab" on any of my son's homeschooled courses.

[regentrude]

The public high schools in our area do not list whether a science class has a lab.  They are simply listed as biology, chemistry, etc.  In university work, where there are often 2 separate grades, it is more common to see that.  

FWIW, I did not put "with lab" on any of my son's homeschooled courses.

 

I put "with lab" because many of the colleges to which DD applied specifically required that a certain number of science courses must have a lab. That seemed to me the easiest way to convey this information.

[Grantmom]

I definitely don't agree with lying on the transcript.  However, I think this is not a homeschooling issue.  I know there are public school classes that don't get to the end of the book; they just stop when they get to the end of the year.  There are just so many variables.  Not every high school biology lab course is equivalent.  One may be easy with a lenient instructor, where another is really difficult with an instructor who has really high expectations.  There is just no barometer except for standardized tests, which is why I think they still look at those so much, despite the talk saying they want to get away from them.

 

However, I do think that, as homeschoolers, learning occurs in a lot of different ways that we then have to translate into language that at least somewhat aligns with their public school counterparts.  So, learning might look different or happen over a non-standard period, but the child is still having a rich learning experience.  I think that is just what it comes down to.  Doing the best you can to provide your student with a rich, engaging learning experience and not just checking off boxes.

 

 

[TammyS]

When I went to school "with labs" was implied in all sciences, but the truth is we only did 2-3 labs per year.  And from what I hear from my school friends, that's pretty common.

 

I imagine for a non-STEM student it doesn't matter much.

[TammyS]

. The point is that she is modeling lying to her kid as a valid way of getting through life.

 

I think the OP says they didn't do all the labs, that doesn't mean the mom is lying.  It means that like any teacher she made a choice about how much class time to devote to labs.  Just because the labs are available doesn't mean you have to do them all. 

 

Or maybe I'm misunderstanding?  Did she do "less labs than available", or "no labs"?

 

[kfeusse]

she didn't do many labs...but she did do a few.  She just felt the kids were learning the concepts without the labs and the labs were just to solidify the concepts...not teach something more.  Does that make sense?

[marbel]

No, "Conceptual" has nothing to do with lab or not lab, but with math or no math.

 

You can simply have "Science". You don't have to mention a lab if you didn't do one.

 

Ah, OK, thanks for the clarification.    It doesn't really matter for me, as I didn't use that designation.  But I'm glad to be corrected so I don't mislead anyone in the future.  :-)

[foxbridgeacademy]

So going to get flamed for this....

 

DSD had been taking Honors Bio at Public School. It's listed as a lab science.  The only lab they had done when we pulled her out last week was punnet squares(with no plans to do any wet labs).  So if the OP's friend says they did some labs, it's still better than a lot of PS's (DSD's school gets a 9 out of 10 on all the school grading websites).  Also where is the official course description that says "you must teach science this way with this many labs"?  Just because some of us have particular standards does not mean that OP's friend is lying when she says her DC did Biology with lab. 

 

Also, if I drop the ball and don't do a good job of teaching a class (we're having particular trouble with Chemistry this year) why should my kid suffer?  I would not list Chem just because we only half-a$$ed it.  I might try to come back to it or encourage him to take Intro Chem at CC but I wouldn't leave it off his transcript and have that be a reason he doesn't get into College.

 

Lastly, most Universities don't care what's on your transcript as a HSer unless it's from an accredited source, all they care is that the boxes are checked and you having passing test scores (this obviously doesn't apply for highly selective schools). I was "homeschooled" from 10th grade on (my mom tried for a couple months then gave up) I went on to do well in Bio for Majors and Chem for non-majors.  I had very little science in the year of H.S. and none at home (fundamentalist christians, they had trouble finding something that fit their particular world view back then).  

 

So if the mom wants to put Bio with lab even though she doesn't meet this boards idea of a lab science I don't see the problem.... FYI, we'll be putting Chem with Lab even though I've mostly given up on it this year, we will get back to it later but my umbrella wants it on there with a grade, he's getting an A-.

Edited March 10, 2017 by foxbridgeacademy

[MerryAtHope]

This might seem like a really dumb question...but I was really curious about something.  Another homeschooling family close to us doesn't take their job as seriously as we do in our home, and they have high schoolers who are college bound.  The mom was talking to me about filing out transcripts and how she might sort of fudge on some information like, Biology with labs....she told me they sort of did some of the labs, but not all of them...but she still planned on putting "Biology with labs" on her child's transcript.  Granted this child is not a STEM student, so the fact that they didn't do the labs won't really matter as far as future studies...but my question is....how will the college know that she fudged on that information?  or will they? and does it really matter...other than the fact that she is misrepresenting her child's high school science?

 

Does that make sense?

 

thanks.

 

I don't think it's dishonest to say "Biology with labs" if they did some but not all labs. The truth is that there just isn't a standard out there for how many labs have to be done in order to make this designation.

 

I find it more concerning that she thinks she has to "fudge," and that she thinks it's appropriate to purposefully (whether actually or just in her mind) misrepresent information. I'd encourage her to find ways to represent what they honestly did in ways that she can feel good about. I think she can honestly say "with labs" for example, if they really did "some" labs (real hands-on labs--not merely virtual ones. I'd be okay with SOME virtual--but there needs to be at least some actual hands on work to call them labs). And I think that more casual learning (interest-led, incorporating experiences and not just textbooks) can count, putting in enough time but not finishing a book can count, and so on. 

 

To me, the important part is not whether or not the school knows up front (or figures it out later). The important part is that SHE will know and her STUDENT will know. Does she want to live with that? Does she want her student to think that he/she really didn't get a valid high school education because mom had to fudge/lie about/misrepresent said education? There's a lot that truly COULD be valid, even if it was done casually--but to discredit all of it by lying is the more concerning part to me. Better to find ways to represent it and feel good about it (she obviously felt good enough about it for the last however many years). 

[swimmermom3]

I put "with lab" because many of the colleges to which DD applied specifically required that a certain number of science courses must have a lab. That seemed to me the easiest way to convey this information.

 

Our schools specified "with labs" as well, so that is how we listed them on the transcript.

 

Purdue requires 6 semesters of "laboratory science." The breakdown depends on your intended major.

University of Washington requires 2 units of lab science.

Arizona State requires 3 laboratory-based sciences

University of Illinois requires 2 years of lab sciences with 4 recommended

University of Oregon requires 3 years of science with one of them with labs

American University requires 2 units of laboratory science

 

These are just for example.

 

[teachermom2834]

So going to get flamed for this....

 

DSD had been taking Honors Bio at Public School. It's listed as a lab science. The only lab they had done when we pulled her out last week was punnet squares(with no plans to do any wet labs). So if the OP's friend says they did some labs, it's still better than a lot of PS's (DSD's school gets a 9 out of 10 on all the school grading websites). Also where is the official course description that says "you must teach science this way with this many labs"? Just because some of us have particular standards does not mean that OP's friend is lying when she says her DC did Biology with lab.

 

Also, if I drop the ball and don't do a good job of teaching a class (we're having particular trouble with Chemistry this year) why should my kid suffer? I would not list Chem just because we only half-a$$ed it. I might try to come back to it or encourage him to take Intro Chem at CC but I wouldn't leave it off his transcript and have that be a reason he doesn't get into College.

 

Lastly, most Universities don't care what's on your transcript as a HSer unless it's from an accredited source, all they care is that the boxes are checked and you having passing test scores (this obviously doesn't apply for highly selective schools). I was "homeschooled" from 10th grade on (my mom tried for a couple months then gave up) I went on to do well in Bio for Majors and Chem for non-majors. I had very little science in the year of H.S. and none at home (fundamentalist christians, they had trouble finding something that fit their particular world view back then).

 

So if the mom wants to put Bio with lab even though she doesn't meet this boards idea of a lab science I don't see the problem.... FYI, we'll be putting Chem with Lab even though I've mostly given up on it this year, we will get back to it later but my umbrella wants it on there with a grade, he's getting an A-.

While I don't whole heartedly agree I won't flame you for this at all. I might have a few years ago. We have had a chaotic few years and I've got a kid with a good ACT who is doing very well in university dual enrollment classes. He just kind of went straight to college and some of the high school basics are lacking. He is working and paying many of his own bills. He knows where he wants to go to college and he can get good scholarships. Getting in every last high school requirement feels unnecessary at this point.

 

I am not at the point where I would list something he hadn't really done but I can understand it in a way I didn't before. So I do see where you are coming from.

[creekland]

Is now the time to mention that we didn't do all the labs with our science courses?  We picked and chose what we did.

 

FWIW, so do our ps science teachers at the school where I work.  What labs are done vary based upon teacher and whim of the semester - maybe even snow days.

 

It hasn't been a problem for any of my guys.

 

ETA  And one is heavy science - still not a problem - even at a top research school.  Having all the other fundamentals (and some lab experience) has been important.  Very important.

Edited March 11, 2017 by creekland

[Tiramisu]

I thought I was a slacker when it came to labs because I had to rely mainly on coops due to my own weak background. Sometimes teachers had medical or family issues so not all labs were done. Occasionally, we supplemented at home when necessary to meet a requirement and it was rather pathetic because I was so clueless. But I was honest even though the level was low.

 

Same child has taken two science classes at college and did fine. In fact, she is planning to head in a heavier research direction in her field for grad school.

 

Then when my second dc took a biology class at a b&m school, I started to think what we had done at home with dd#1 wasn't so bad after all. I wasn't impressed. The hsers we knew did more.

 

Then dd#2 took chemistry and the beauty of labs and a careful report became clear to me. It was all the teacher.

 

There's just so much variation and there can be limits to what particular ha moms can do, but I believe in being honest.

[MysteryJen]

No flames from me. If she did some labs, but not all. She can say with labs certainly. I was an absolute stickler for completing the labs and making sure that the hours were right for every class and I could be 100% honest about the transcript. This board has really, really high standards. I try very hard to live up to them.

 

And then I sent a kid to ps school. One lab was cancelled (not postponed) because of a snow day. One was virtual. One was watching the teacher do the lab and writing about it. There might be another before the end of the year. The honors class has not done more. AP Bio is not available for freshmen.

 

It is not that this is a bad school, it is that we forget that a homeschooler can do a lab everyweek and they can do all of it. The logistics are much, much different in a crowded classroom.

 

I did very, very few labs in high school and yet was absolutely able to learn and be successful in my required lab science class. If the kid is STEM bound, classes at cc are (ime) excellent at teaching lab sciences to beginners.

[Night Elf]

My ds who homeschooled high school did Biology only, no lab. The college never even asked. I'm assuming they assume Biology or Chemistry automatically have labs. My dd who went to public high school didn't have labs listed on her transcript either. In fact, the school didn't do separate science labs. Chemistry and Physics had a couple of projects in the class.

[goldberry]

We did biology with lab, and I thought we were rather light on labs and almost felt bad about it.  DD is now in College Biology with Lab, and her peers from public school who also had high school biology with lab knew less about the lab equipment, procedures, etc, than she did.  She ended up taking the lead.  So, I wonder about the quality and coverage that even traditional high school students get.  

 

I think if you know your kid KNOWS something, but maybe you didn't check all the boxes to get them to that point, fudging a little isn't that harmful.  But just flat out padding the transcript will only hurt the kid, as well as the reputation of the homeschool community in general.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

I wanted to share a site that we used for biology labs.  http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/sci_edu/waldron/

 

I think science labs scare a lot of parents.  They seem like something that need a lot of equipment and expert knowledge.  It is possible to approach them as an exercise in curiosity and well, experimentation.

 

Take for example a common experiment using vinegar to dissolve an egg's shell, then corn syrup to demonstrate osmosis.  Does it matter how long an egg is in the corn syrup?  What effects do you get from several other liquids?  Take measurements.  Record what happened.  Create a hypothesis and then come up with an experiment that tests it.  

Many labs in textbooks and science curriculum are more demonstration than experiment.  There can be a place for this.  It's hard to come up with a hypothesis if you have no frame of reference.  But also allow some time for "what if I did this?" kind of exploration.

Edited March 11, 2017 by Sebastian (a lady)

[GoodGrief]

I wanted to share a site that we used for biology labs.  http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/sci_edu/waldron/

 

I think science labs scare a lot of parents.  They seem like something that need a lot of equipment and expert knowledge.  It is possible to approach them as an exercise in curiosity and well, experimentation.

 

Take for example a common experiment using vinegar to dissolve an egg's shell, then corn syrup to demonstrate osmosis.  Does it matter how long an egg is in the corn syrup?  What effects do you get from several other liquids?  Take measurements.  Record what happened.  Create a hypothesis and then come up with an experiment that tests it.  

Many labs in textbooks and science curriculum are more demonstration than experiment.  There can be a place for this.  It's hard to come up with a hypothesis if you have no frame of reference.  But also allow some time for "what if I did this?" kind of exploration.

 

This is really good advice!

 

[hopskipjump]

I was a stickler for dd1. I ran a co-op for specific non-science classes. And a friend was always asking what we did for science labs so she could "just jot it down" for her ds's labs. I wrote him a letter of recommendation later (as a teacher) and later found out they'd written me down as a science teacher. 😡 My letter didn't specifically state what class I'd taught him and I guess it worked. But, MAN, it ticked me off. This kid gets everything handed to him on a silver platter, while MY daughter is working her backside off DOING all this science stuff, and she just wants to "jot it down??" for her snowflake??? Grrrrrr.

 

I caught her several times - while I was teaching a class, she would flip through my planner and copy things out of it. No joke.

 

(I no longer teach co-op classes... 😄)

 

With that said, my science expectations are very different for dd2. We are doing a co-op for Chemistry next year where I know full-well it won't be as hands-on as dd1s was. For dd2, that's gonna be just fine. My *hopes* are that the demonstrated labs might spark an interest for DS and he can come home and do those (or other) labs on his own.

 

I will have them write up lab reports for some of they aren't doing them in class.

Edited March 12, 2017 by hopskipjump

[GinaPagnato]

I personally wouldn't be able to put anything on my kids' transcripts that they hadn't actually done to *my* satisfaction. This is mostly because I think my kids would way too easily see it as a pass to slack in certain subjects and/or feel slightly diminished (as in, I couldn't handle the class, so Mom just lied about it).

 

I don't much care what other people put on their transcripts. That's been a more recent way of thinking for me, after my friend who has ps kids told me that her son's history teacher told him he gave him an A rather than the B+ he deserved because the kid says hello to him (the teacher) everyday when they pass in the hallway. :blink:

[MysteryJen]

I personally wouldn't be able to put anything on my kids' transcripts that they hadn't actually done to *my* satisfaction. This is mostly because I think my kids would way too easily see it as a pass to slack in certain subjects and/or feel slightly diminished (as in, I couldn't handle the class, so Mom just lied about it).

 

I don't much care what other people put on their transcripts. That's been a more recent way of thinking for me, after my friend who has ps kids told me that her son's history teacher told him he gave him an A rather than the B+ he deserved because the kid says hello to him (the teacher) everyday when they pass in the hallway. :blink:

:lol:

 

And certainly that teacher is not sitting up at nights wondering if colleges will think he is a slacker. 

[Ann.without.an.e]

I haven't read the other answers but they don't.  I have friends who have sat down end of junior year and created a transcript, out of thin air.  Their kids are no where near ready for college level work.  I think this is why colleges are so picky about outside validity for homeschoolers.  We can get upset that they want extra information sometimes, but people like this have caused the problems for homeschoolers.  Many schools wanted subject tests, require test scores, like to see outside classes or AP exam scores, etc because it gives validity to the curriculum.  

[lmrich]

It is just wrong to misrepresent the truth; it is a lie. 

 

I felt odd that my son was in advanced biology (called Magnet Biology for a science and math school) which was a required freshmen class. They did two labs! 

[Kassia]

It is just wrong to misrepresent the truth; it is a lie. 

 

I felt odd that my son was in advanced biology (called Magnet Biology for a science and math school) which was a required freshmen class. They did two labs! 

 

Yes!  My sons took honors biology in ps.  It was a total waste of a class - the teacher had learned how to do absolutely nothing and still get through the school year.  

[creekland]

I haven't read the other answers but they don't.  I have friends who have sat down end of junior year and created a transcript, out of thin air.  Their kids are no where near ready for college level work.  I think this is why colleges are so picky about outside validity for homeschoolers.  We can get upset that they want extra information sometimes, but people like this have caused the problems for homeschoolers.  Many schools wanted subject tests, require test scores, like to see outside classes or AP exam scores, etc because it gives validity to the curriculum.  

 

But colleges also want validity from scores or similar from ps students.  They rarely accept an A from an unknown school to be an A without confirmation from something else.  Even SAT optional schools want to see "something else" from students.  When the college knows a school (has had several students from that school), then they accept the assessment (or adjust accordingly), but unknown schools they look at more carefully - just like with homeschoolers.

[JumpedIntoTheDeepEndFirst]

They don't know.  They look at all the available information and make a call.

 

However, I am very careful when judging what other homeschoolers say about their work.  I think we put a significant amount of pressure on ourselves as educators.  Did we only complete one chem lab per unit?  Was that enough?  Surely some people out there do several...  I should do more... I'll put with lab but maybe I'm fudging a bit since that seems too little.

 

It is hard to compare since there isn't even a standard for what constitutes "with labs".  Could one teacher be slacking, could one be overachieving?  Yes, absolutely.  Where is the "goldilocks zone" for teaching standards? I'm not sure.  (Note-I'm picking on science courses since that was the example but could the same be said about number of novels read in an English course, number of translations in a foreign language, number of papers written in history, etc. --yes.)

 

In the end, if you fudge too much or are otherwise unprepared, it will show once you begin college courses.  How will that fudging play out in the college admissions game?  It might seem like an unfair advantage but, in the end, admissions is anything but fair.

Edited March 14, 2017 by JumpedIntoTheDeepEndFirst

[Ann.without.an.e]

But colleges also want validity from scores or similar from ps students.  They rarely accept an A from an unknown school to be an A without confirmation from something else.  Even SAT optional schools want to see "something else" from students.  When the college knows a school (has had several students from that school), then they accept the assessment (or adjust accordingly), but unknown schools they look at more carefully - just like with homeschoolers.

 

 

They use rank with most schools.  I asked more questions about this once and got an ear full.  Do you know that in some public schools a kid with over a 4.0 can still be 150th in a class of 300?  They really can't just look at GPAs at all.  In most schools they need to look at class rank more than GPA because so many schools inflate the GPAs or grade super easy. Most of the schools around here will let anyone take any AP and there is a huge grade inflation for it (and the classes are easy and no one even plans to take the exam).  In smaller schools that don't rank and home schools they must lean on other factors more heavily (test scores, letters of rec, AP exam scores, sat subject tests, etc, etc).   Basically, she said that GPA is only a factor in schools that rank because they know that a 4.0 at one school is no where near equal to a 4.0 at a different school.  

Edited March 14, 2017 by Attolia

[MysteryJen]

The above is why test scores are important. When you know people with over a 4.0 and yet well-below average scores in public school and home school, that can be a flag for admissions.