Strong-willed Child or Dreamer? - if your child fits the profile in this book ...

[FindingMyWay]

I read this book on the recommendation of someone here, and it describes my 8yo to a T. It's opened my eyes tremendously and helped me see the patterns and motivating factors behind many of his behaviors. However, I found the books somewhat lacking in suggestions as to how to actually handle/respond to some of the behaviors my ds is exhibiting. I would say his biggest struggle is that he is angry a lot. He flies off the handle really easily, and his reaction to a small irritation and a legitimately big offense are about the same. I have a pretty laid-back personality, and I don't even know how to respond to someone flipping out over being asked to put their breakfast dishes in the dishwasher, you know? 

 

Any suggestions of what worked for your dreamers - even if it wasn't specifically dealing with anger - would be great. Example dialogue would be wonderful, too! I'm looking for really concrete examples of how you handle these behaviors. This boy is such a loving, affectionate, kind-hearted kid when he's NOT angry. I really want to help him control his temper so that other side of him can shine!

[Guest]

I haven't read the book you referred to, but I have three strong willed kids. This doesn't directly deal with anger issues, but of definance and is quite practical- Cynthia Tobias's book You Can't Make Me (But I Can be Persuaded....). It is from a Christian perspective, if that matters one way or another.

 

Another book I haven't read, but see referred here often is The Explosive Child. Those both might be worth checking out.

[PeterPan]

If you go to SocialThinking.com they have materials that would work for this. 5 Point Scale, size of the problem, We Can Make it Better, Social Detective, a bunch of them would work. 

 

Texas mentioned Green's book The Explosive Child, and it's good. Thing is, you're working through a progression of materials on what's going on. Some kids have those behaviors, and their gap in social thinking and self-regulation is smaller and responds more readily. Then the gap gets bigger and we get evals and realize maybe there is some ADHD or maybe some OT issues like retained reflexes or something going on. Then the gap gets bigger and we realize maybe there's ASD going on. 

 

So me, I'm personally not keen on the non-technical terminology, because, like you're finding, it doesn't really answer why or what specifically fits your situation. But are you seeing more to warrant evals? Don't know, and that's not what you asked for, lol. It sounds like you've raised two other kids and are noticing some differences. That, to me, is when I start wanting evals, when there's something really different from their peers.

 

If there's more going on with how they respond to things, how they self-regulation, how they respond to sensory, weird things with their writing, vision, or attention, people would be happy to help talk it through. So is "dreamer" code for ADHD-inattentive? I think I only skimmed that book. I think I found it late with my dd (ADHD-inattentive) and didn't find it a good fit with my ds (ASD+ADHD). You could start reading some materials on ADHD-inattentive and see what fits. Hollaway's stuff (ADHD Superparenting, etc.) is particularly good. 

 

The Social Thinking materials are going to span a variety of labels and kids with no labels. You don't need labels to have them fit. For instance, in 5 Point Scale we talk about the size of the problem. So we actually stop and say ok, is this a 5? A 5 means CALL THE POLICE. It means it's so bad and SUCH a big deal that even an adult needs help! We practice size of reactions and talk about what they look like, what a 1 looks like and what might be a 1 and what a 5 looks like. 

 

An 8 year old is totally ready to have that type of discussion, even in the moment, and to let it slow down and check his behaviors. But he's going to have to have some TEACHING beforehand. That's what the materials are for. So yes, absolutely you want 5 Point Scale. Perfect for that. Also I would want him to go through a basic social thinking course like We Thinkers https://www.socialthinking.com/Search%20Results#q=we%20thinkers  Right now, he's in his world, his thought process, and he's not thinking about anyone else and how they feel about his behaviors. So he's going to need lessons to begin to notice that OTHER people have thoughts about his behaviors and remember them. 

 

There are also really good social stories you can use. Amazon sells them, and maybe ST does. Just something to get you started. Once you realize the genre exists, you'll find limitless options. https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_ss_c_1_16?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=my+mouth+is+a+volcano&sprefix=my+mouth+is+a+vo%2Caps%2C152&crid=29YGWDLUNZAU4  Again, a book like that can be a really good starting point and enough for some kids. If it's NOT enough, just reading that book and discussing, then that's a really good time to say ok, let's back up and bring in a curriculum for it. If it clicks with the books, you don't need the more in-depth curriculum. My ds' starting point was lower, so the full curriculum was better for him. It built the concepts more carefully.

 

Definitely look into 5 Point Scale. You don't actually need the materials. There's a story book. See what your library has. Just getting the concept yourself and explaining it might be enough. It's something they literally do in a day as far as instruction. Then they just apply, apply, apply. You can also google and find lists of calming strategies. You want to go through them and find things that work for him and PRACTICE them during the day. You don't wait till he's hot under the collar, kwim? You practice them 2-3 times a day at OTHER times. Like you finish breakfast, and you practice. Then tell him to do the dishwasher, lol. Just make some check points in your day and practice. 

 

For my ds, calming strategies are really important. He needs to know that it's ok for him to say he needs a break, that he can leave, go cool down for 3-5 minutes, then come back and do the task. Practicing throughout the day is pre-emptive and may keep him more calm overall. It also helps him feel what calm is, so he realizes when he's not. You can also google behavioral relaxation techniques. Our psych has us doing something that starts with mindfulness (close your eyes, notice how each body part feels) and extends to them tightening and part and breathing it out then *humming* the tension out. Sounds corny, but it's super effective and something an 8 yo can do discretely anywhere. You can literally just say hey, I think we need to close our eyes and hum and calm down, kwim? But you can't do that if you haven't PRACTICED it before. So that's why you practice the strategies 2-3 times a day while he's CALM. 

 

It will take time to work through a list and find things he really prefers. He'll like some things or have ideas of his own. My ds wants to be able to work with wood. The banging is really calming to him! I haven't made it happen yet. You can have that give and take and collaborate. The list is just a starting point.

 

If he is ADHD, meds can sometimes made a big difference in self-regulation. The data shows that people are actually *more* satisfied with results with meds if they do behavioral interventions first, before meds. So the stuff I listed above is good stuff to look into, no matter what. However it's just something to know and bring onto your radar and again a reason to consider evals. Sometimes kids will have more pop up in evals. Many kids with ADHD and other issues will have low processing speed relative to IQ. That discrepancy makes it *look* like non-compliance or behavioral issues, when really they're frustrated! So the data you get with evals can be really helpful. We didn't do evals on my dd till she was 11, which was really waiting too long, sigh. Lotsa water under the bridge at that point. She turned out to have wicked low processing speed and very poor word retrieval. So some of what was coming out as behavior was actually physical in cause. :( Again, that's why I'm so in favor of evals. Until you do them, you don't know what's really contributing. 

Edited March 6, 2017 by OhElizabeth

[Jean in Newcastle]

I have a dreamer. A lot of what comes out as anger is actually frustration. We spent a lot of time in younger years brainstorming together on how to tackle problems outside the box. It took her awhile to realize that I was not trying to shoehorn her into the box anymore and that we could collaborate instead of butting heads. Now in high school, she is really coming into her own as a leader and innovative thinker.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[FindingMyWay]

If you go to SocialThinking.com they have materials that would work for this. 5 Point Scale, size of the problem, We Can Make it Better, Social Detective, a bunch of them would work. 

 

 So is "dreamer" code for ADHD-inattentive?

 

 

(Sorry, mulit-quote isn't working for me so I have to do this in separate posts.)

 

Lots of tips in your post, OhElizabeth - thanks! Some we've tried or do use, but lots we haven't. I'll sift through that thoroughly. The website in particular sounds interesting. As far as dreamer being code for ADHD-inattentive, though, no, it's not. Some kids are both, but this boy is not. The book just presents this as a personality type, not a diagnosis of anything.

[FindingMyWay]

I haven't read the book you referred to, but I have three strong willed kids. This doesn't directly deal with anger issues, but of definance and is quite practical- Cynthia Tobias's book You Can't Make Me (But I Can be Persuaded....). It is from a Christian perspective, if that matters one way or another.

 

Another book I haven't read, but see referred here often is The Explosive Child. Those both might be worth checking out.

 

I've heard Cynthia Tobias interviewed on the radio, but I can't remember if I read her book. I'll look into it. Thanks! I started The Explosive Child with great hope - because that's how I would describe ds - but was very disappointed. Somehow, what they were describing was not what he's like at all. I don't remember specifics as it was a while back, but maybe I should check it out again.

[FindingMyWay]

I have a dreamer. A lot of what comes out as anger is actually frustration. We spent a lot of time in younger years brainstorming together on how to tackle problems outside the box. It took her awhile to realize that I was not trying to shoehorn her into the box anymore and that we could collaborate instead of butting heads. Now in high school, she is really coming into her own as a leader and innovative thinker.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

That's interesting. Some of his reaction may be fueled by frustration, but it's hard for me to tell. It looks a lot like anger that the world doesn't run exactly the way he wants it to. Can you give me an example of what this looked like when your daughter was younger? 

[PeterPan]

I've heard Cynthia Tobias interviewed on the radio, but I can't remember if I read her book. I'll look into it. Thanks! I started The Explosive Child with great hope - because that's how I would describe ds - but was very disappointed. Somehow, what they were describing was not what he's like at all. I don't remember specifics as it was a while back, but maybe I should check it out again.

 

It's a matter of degrees. I read The Explosive Child and went wow, there's my ds. But my ds is even FARTHER than that, so he needed more strategies, more tools. It wasn't enough for him. There's just a wide range of how far this goes. When my ds explodes and has meltdowns, it's very dangerous. We're finally getting breakthroughs, and I don't have any bruises on me. 

 

The foundational techniques are the same (building awareness and calming strategies), but it's just a matter of how far you have to go, how well the dc can self-regulate with the amount of intervention and instruction he's given. That's good that you don't see him in Green's book. It's a GOOD sign! :)

 

Even though you're thinking not ADHD, honestly I'd pick up the Superparenting ADHD book by Holloway. It's really, really good, and you never know. There are plenty of ADHD kids who don't ring as ADHD. My dd is that way. And say it's not. Well maybe the ideas there on self-regulation and supports might be that nice middle ground between typical parenting books and something more. 

 

I like to read widely, across labels. Then I can just pick what works. :)

[PeterPan]

Btw, if you actually want a strategy to help you, you can behavior log. It will take a little effort, so you might want to keep a pad out or your iphone or something. Basically you want to start watching and look for ABC: antecedent, behavior, consequence. And when we log my ds, we then log his *response* to the consequence and the duration. 

 

I think logging like that might give you some valuable information and help you find patterns. Just the very act of doing it, even without paying for professional analysis, will help you see more at a meta level and catch things you were missing. Since this is happening pretty frequently, really I would make the effort.

 

antecedent = what was going on before the behavior occurred

behavior = what precisely he did. If you're really feeling golden, see if you can note the function of the behavior (escape, attention, getting something, etc.)

consequence = how you responded, what happened after his behavior. This might not be negative. It might be something like ignoring him or you redirected or distracted him with something.

 

So then, in your columns 4 and 5, log, what his response was to the consequence. Like when you tried to redirect him, what response did he have? And how long did that behavior response continue?

 

If you'll do that, even though it's a pain in the butt, it will give you some data to figure out what's really happening. You might notice a pattern, like maybe they're all during times when he's waiting or when he's bored. You might notice a common strand, like behaviors occurring when he's trying to request things or when demands are made abruptly when he's in the middle of somethign else. The data will help you see that, and it costs you nothing. 

 

If you do this, collect your data for a week and report back at LC. People can help you interpret and apply it. :)

[PeterPan]

That's interesting. Some of his reaction may be fueled by frustration, but it's hard for me to tell. It looks a lot like anger that the world doesn't run exactly the way he wants it to. Can you give me an example of what this looked like when your daughter was younger? 

 

I think you can get to the bottom of it by behavior logging. Behaviors happen so quickly that we really miss the antecedent unless we're watching carefully. And then to figure out the FUNCTION of the behavior, that's even harder. It takes us slowing down and reflecting and noticing. 

 

When I'm behavior logging my ds, I try to stop and make data after major incidents (because of course at that point I need a BREAK!) or after a few hours if things are milder. Like if you can remember things that happened for 2-3 hours, then just take a mid-morning or lunch break and log the data. But having a notebook out and really planning to notice helps.

Edited March 6, 2017 by OhElizabeth

[fralala]

Well, the Kazdin method has worked wonders for helping my child like this shine, and also my other children be their best selves.

 

The bare-bones of this is "ABC" -- you create a positive antecedent (focus on the positive opposite of the behavior you dislike: so you think about what you do want your son to do when he gets that super angry feeling inside and then you focus on helping him practice the positive behavior, including when he's not actually angry, and then you give consequences-- focusing again on positive, tangible consequences for the improved behavior).

 

Losing control and getting angry aren't integral parts of anybody's personality-- they're responses that can actually be unlearned. I think of Kazdin's method as free cognitive behavioral therapy for our family.

[J-rap]

I wish I knew about these books when my kids were growing up.  I have a strong-willed dreamer!   :)   I guess it's never too late though.

[Jean in Newcastle]

That's interesting. Some of his reaction may be fueled by frustration, but it's hard for me to tell. It looks a lot like anger that the world doesn't run exactly the way he wants it to. Can you give me an example of what this looked like when your daughter was younger? 

 

Well, my dreamer is a girl so her reactions tended more to the crying/ shutting completely down spectrum with some stomping and slammed doors mixed in.  It's hard to know if any of my experience will directly translate to yours since different people are involved. 

 

In my dd's case, I could see that it was not defiance.  She really wanted to do what I wanted her to do but somehow could not.  Even when it seemed so easy to me and I had a hard time seeing why she couldn't just do it.  So I focused more on how can we have the end result needed while getting to it in an alternative way.  My dd is a visual-spatial thinker.  She is not a linear thinker.  (My Aspie/ ADD son is also a visual spatial learner but dd is most definitely not an aspie or ADD.) 

 

A specific example?  Math comes to mind.  Oh the meltdowns we had in math until I found a program that worked for her (Khan Academy).  (There is a current thread up on Khan Academy where I outlined how I used it.)  Anyway. . . she still had to do math but finding a program where she could rabbit ahead on those things she knew, helped a lot.  We also did some of the Simply Charlotte Mason programs where you run a sports store etc.  I added in my own scenarios where we were remodeling the store for example, to bring in other math skills like area, perimeter etc.  Dd is still not linear on math but she's doing well in algebra even though she does not always solve the equations in a linear fashion.  I've had to learn the math well enough to see how she is applying other mathematical principles to get the right answer even if it doesn't follow the set "rules". 

 

More recently we've had huge meltdowns over writing.  I've learned to tell her "this is the end result I want" and then walk away.  (I have to confess that sometimes I've sat out in the car where she can't see me and have cried.)  But if I do that, she figures out a way to do it.  NONE of the linear "how to write" programs out there worked for her.  She would go on strike with those and while that might look like defiance, it really wasn't.  She just couldn't think that way and forcing her to do it was torturing both of us.  BTW - when she is left on her own, her writing is smart and communicates just fine. 

[FindingMyWay]

Well, the Kazdin method has worked wonders for helping my child like this shine, and also my other children be their best selves.

 

The bare-bones of this is "ABC" -- you create a positive antecedent (focus on the positive opposite of the behavior you dislike: so you think about what you do want your son to do when he gets that super angry feeling inside and then you focus on helping him practice the positive behavior, including when he's not actually angry, and then you give consequences-- focusing again on positive, tangible consequences for the improved behavior).

 

Losing control and getting angry aren't integral parts of anybody's personality-- they're responses that can actually be unlearned. I think of Kazdin's method as free cognitive behavioral therapy for our family.

 

I'll look at this, thank you. Just wanted to clarify ... the dreamer personality isn't inherently angry. That's not what the book talks about. :) It's how he is responding to things, but I didn't mean that it's just part of his personality. It's a great book, and I don't want to give the wrong impression about it.

[FindingMyWay]

Well, my dreamer is a girl so her reactions tended more to the crying/ shutting completely down spectrum with some stomping and slammed doors mixed in.  It's hard to know if any of my experience will directly translate to yours since different people are involved. 

 

In my dd's case, I could see that it was not defiance.  She really wanted to do what I wanted her to do but somehow could not.  Even when it seemed so easy to me and I had a hard time seeing why she couldn't just do it.  So I focused more on how can we have the end result needed while getting to it in an alternative way.  My dd is a visual-spatial thinker.  She is not a linear thinker.  (My Aspie/ ADD son is also a visual spatial learner but dd is most definitely not an aspie or ADD.) 

 

A specific example?  Math comes to mind.  Oh the meltdowns we had in math until I found a program that worked for her (Khan Academy).  (There is a current thread up on Khan Academy where I outlined how I used it.)  Anyway. . . she still had to do math but finding a program where she could rabbit ahead on those things she knew, helped a lot.  We also did some of the Simply Charlotte Mason programs where you run a sports store etc.  I added in my own scenarios where we were remodeling the store for example, to bring in other math skills like area, perimeter etc.  Dd is still not linear on math but she's doing well in algebra even though she does not always solve the equations in a linear fashion.  I've had to learn the math well enough to see how she is applying other mathematical principles to get the right answer even if it doesn't follow the set "rules". 

 

More recently we've had huge meltdowns over writing.  I've learned to tell her "this is the end result I want" and then walk away.  (I have to confess that sometimes I've sat out in the car where she can't see me and have cried.)  But if I do that, she figures out a way to do it.  NONE of the linear "how to write" programs out there worked for her.  She would go on strike with those and while that might look like defiance, it really wasn't.  She just couldn't think that way and forcing her to do it was torturing both of us.  BTW - when she is left on her own, her writing is smart and communicates just fine. 

 

That's helpful; thank you. I don't think he is intending to be defiant, either. He got angry today and stomped off to his room after shouting at me, but he was back apologizing within three minutes. He wants to be good and do the right thing. He feels his failure to do that very keenly.  :sad:

[Jean in Newcastle]

That's helpful; thank you. I don't think he is intending to be defiant, either. He got angry today and stomped off to his room after shouting at me, but he was back apologizing within three minutes. He wants to be good and do the right thing. He feels his failure to do that very keenly.  :sad:

 

In our house, taking a time-out is an acceptable way to diffuse some frustration.  So going to the room is ok.  Even some stomping is ok (this is because in our house we've had trouble with stuffing emotions and not acknowledging them) but shouting at someone is not.  Coming back to apologize in 3 minutes is very good.

 

Right now we're having a problem in algebra.  Dd is older and didn't actually melt down, but we agreed to have a time out of sorts.  She is spending her time out with other school books.  I'm spending my time out with her algebra book.  ;)  If we had stayed together to try to figure it out, there would have been more frustration etc.  Now that I've had a chance to teach myself how to graph an equation and find it's slope, we will try again.  Beating our head against a wall is counterproductive.  Being rigid is counterproductive.

Labeling her frustration as anger is counterproductive.  Finding a way to actually move forward is productive.  Even if it takes a bit longer and we have to set things aside.  (Some times I can't figure things out immediately and have to spend a few days googling and catching myself up to speed on a problem.  It just so happened that today all I needed was 5 minutes to look over the material without anyone looking over my shoulder.)

Edited March 6, 2017 by Jean in Newcastle

[PeterPan]

That's helpful; thank you. I don't think he is intending to be defiant, either. He got angry today and stomped off to his room after shouting at me, but he was back apologizing within three minutes. He wants to be good and do the right thing. He feels his failure to do that very keenly.  :sad:

 

See that's really good! If you were doing ABC and looking at duration, look how little time it took him to calm down and recover and come back. That's really good!

 

I think I'd work on calming strategies. Google and find some charts/lists and talk through, making a list of 8-10 things he thinks would work for him. I even have some calming apps, like one where you count backward from 10 to 0 and then blow out. You tap the screen and it walks you through the steps. Make a list of strategies like that to practice.

 

Fwiw, mindfulness, as a practice, done just 10 minutes a day, can bump EF (executive function) and hence emotional regulation by 30%!! So literally, if you took 10 minutes each morning to practice mindfulness in whatever way pleases you, you might find it improves his self-regulation just enough to get him where he's trying to go. There are some really good mindfulness CDs for kids. I think amazon has some of them to stream for free. 

 

This one is good, and she puts it all online for free! http://www.shambhala.com/sittingstilllikeafrog

 

Literally just give it a whirl. You could try practicing before bed and then again in the morning as part of your morning routine. Just do maybe one of the exercises, just a few minutes. Then, in the moment, he might find it would be something he could do or choose with a prompt.

 

If you can start to notice his physical signs of stress, you can prompt him to use the calming strategy BEFORE he explodes. 

[PeterPan]

In our house, taking a time-out is an acceptable way to diffuse some frustration.  So going to the room is ok.  

 

Yes, agreed! Think about what he's NOT doing, when he chooses to go to his room. He's not hitting, not yelling, not pounding. There's a lot he's not doing. He's just not quite ready to calm himself with someone in the room, so he makes a choice to do what he can, which is to calm himself privately and then return. 

 

We as adults do this too. We'll say oh, I need to give myself a timeout. Give Mom a minute and then I'll come back. We choose this for ourselves. It's a really good strategy. 

 

If he's needing a *long* time in his break area, then maybe it's time for more supports. That's why we notice duration. Like 3 minutes, that's really good! If he's using it to escape a demand (something you told him to do), that's no good. If he goes into his room and starts throwing things and breaking things, that's no good. But if he goes in, maybe listens to some music, calms down, then returns, those are good choices!

[PeterPan]

That's helpful; thank you. I don't think he is intending to be defiant, either. He got angry today and stomped off to his room after shouting at me, but he was back apologizing within three minutes. He wants to be good and do the right thing. He feels his failure to do that very keenly.  :sad:

 

So what was the consequence for that?? That's kind of odd to say he's not intending to be defiant, if in fact he's, um, using his behaviors to escape a demand. ;) I don't know what happened in the full situation. I'm just saying look at what was really going on, what his behavior was, and what function it served. Was he struggling with a demand (request)? Was he in the middle of something else and struggling with a transition? 

 

It's really not a perjorative thing. Like someone could struggle with demands and we see that in our data and go ok, he struggles with demands. So maybe we decide to use more positives. We can make easier demands to get some momentum going. We can use more positive supports, things that motivate him like hugs or praise. 

 

It's really not about saying your kid is BAD. It's about being HONEST about what is going on with the behavior. Once you figure out the situations when he's having those problems, you can bring in some positive supports. And maybe if he just understood how bad it was, he'd get there. I'm kinda assuming you already did that, lol. So then we go ok, even when he knows and wants to, he's having a hard time getting there. So we quantify when those situations are occurring and we bring in more supports. 

 

For perspective, my ds, before our behavioral work, was non-compliant and explosive for ANYTHING we asked of him. Like, you can't really imagine what it's like till you live it. Imagine those explosions, but with a duration of 30-40 minutes or more (sometimes 2 hours before he's calm again), and imagine it was over ANYTHING non-preferred. It was ugly! 

 

I like Kazdin btw. It's all a matter of degrees, but the idea is the same. How much positive momentum could you give and how much could you support till he actually CAN get there, from right where he is. For my ds, that meant really sneaky stuff like asking him to do a task he had ALREADY STARTED DOING. I kid you not. Like he's already doing it and you tell him to do it. And then you praise him for doing it!! You can back up that far, with a lot more positives, a lot more praise, and smaller whatevers of whatever is the antecedent for his behavior. Then, when you get back on a positive track, then you increase demands. 

 

I would start thinking about consequences, natural consequences. With my ds, working with his person (me, an ABA worker, whatever) is pretty high value. So if he yells at us, we can say "Wow, when you yell at me, I feel scared and don't want to be around you. I'm going to need some time to calm down and rest till I feel better again." So then he loses time with me to do fun things we WOULD have been doing together. And as part of that, obviously you have to be doing more fun things! You up the positive (praise, fun activities, etc.) so that you have something you can pull back as a natural consequence. 

 

I would definitely look for some natural consequences. He's old enough that he can understand and see cause/effect. Nothing protracted or severe. Just a small, natural consequence, so he can make the connection. 

Edited March 6, 2017 by OhElizabeth

[FindingMyWay]

See that's really good! If you were doing ABC and looking at duration, look how little time it took him to calm down and recover and come back. That's really good!

 

I think I'd work on calming strategies. Google and find some charts/lists and talk through, making a list of 8-10 things he thinks would work for him. I even have some calming apps, like one where you count backward from 10 to 0 and then blow out. You tap the screen and it walks you through the steps. Make a list of strategies like that to practice.

 

Fwiw, mindfulness, as a practice, done just 10 minutes a day, can bump EF (executive function) and hence emotional regulation by 30%!! So literally, if you took 10 minutes each morning to practice mindfulness in whatever way pleases you, you might find it improves his self-regulation just enough to get him where he's trying to go. There are some really good mindfulness CDs for kids. I think amazon has some of them to stream for free. 

 

This one is good, and she puts it all online for free! http://www.shambhala.com/sittingstilllikeafrog

 

Literally just give it a whirl. You could try practicing before bed and then again in the morning as part of your morning routine. Just do maybe one of the exercises, just a few minutes. Then, in the moment, he might find it would be something he could do or choose with a prompt.

 

If you can start to notice his physical signs of stress, you can prompt him to use the calming strategy BEFORE he explodes. 

 

We've do some mindfulness exercises (not sure if that's the right word) as a group. Maybe I need to do some just with him.

[FindingMyWay]

So what was the consequence for that?? That's kind of odd to say he's not intending to be defiant, if in fact he's, um, using his behaviors to escape a demand. ;) I don't know what happened in the full situation. 

 

No, he wasn't trying to escape a demand. He had been rude to his brother, and when he was corrected, he got angry with me. The only consequence was that when he came back and apologized we talked about what he could have said instead. And yes, I realize that isn't particularly a consequence. I am often at a loss as to how to respond to him. This is not how my brain or emotions work, and I am literally speechless sometimes. By the time I pull my thoughts together at all, he's put himself in time-out. That's why I'm asking how others talk to their dreamers - I want ideas for how to talk with him in the moment in a way that gets through to him. I appreciate the ideas for dealing with issues before the explosions, so to speak, and I know that's where a lot of the work happens, but it's in that moment when he's yelling that I really need some words.

[Jean in Newcastle]

No, he wasn't trying to escape a demand. He had been rude to his brother, and when he was corrected, he got angry with me. The only consequence was that when he came back and apologized we talked about what he could have said instead. And yes, I realize that isn't particularly a consequence. I am often at a loss as to how to respond to him. This is not how my brain or emotions work, and I am literally speechless sometimes. By the time I pull my thoughts together at all, he's put himself in time-out. That's why I'm asking how others talk to their dreamers - I want ideas for how to talk with him in the moment in a way that gets through to him. I appreciate the ideas for dealing with issues before the explosions, so to speak, and I know that's where a lot of the work happens, but it's in that moment when he's yelling that I really need some words.

When someone is upset, they often cannot listen to words.  So him going to calm down alone and then coming back to apologize and then talk about it was the best.  The only thing I would add is that if he apologized to you, he also needs to apologize to his brother since he was rude to him first.

 

With my aspie, we did what I believe is called social stories.  Ie.  We just talked about situations that might come up - like getting upset with a sibling and we would practice how to handle those situations.  With my aspie I often had to give him a specific script of words but you wouldn't necessarily have to do that to that degree. 

 

 

[FindingMyWay]

It makes sense that he wouldn't be able to hear words, I just feel so helpless. I wish I knew how to defuse the situation or help him calm down in the moment. 

[Jean in Newcastle]

He doesn't seem at all out of the ordinary for an 8 year old. I wouldn't make a big deal out of it. 8 year olds are still learning how to handle frustrations and big emotions.

 

 

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[PeterPan]

No, he wasn't trying to escape a demand. He had been rude to his brother, and when he was corrected, he got angry with me. The only consequence was that when he came back and apologized we talked about what he could have said instead. And yes, I realize that isn't particularly a consequence. I am often at a loss as to how to respond to him. This is not how my brain or emotions work, and I am literally speechless sometimes. By the time I pull my thoughts together at all, he's put himself in time-out. That's why I'm asking how others talk to their dreamers - I want ideas for how to talk with him in the moment in a way that gets through to him. I appreciate the ideas for dealing with issues before the explosions, so to speak, and I know that's where a lot of the work happens, but it's in that moment when he's yelling that I really need some words.

 

 

It makes sense that he wouldn't be able to hear words, I just feel so helpless. I wish I knew how to defuse the situation or help him calm down in the moment. 

 

I'm losing the flow of what happened. I'm not trying to pry, but I think it might be helpful to you to back up further and figure out what's really happening, first with the brother, then when you came in. At either of those points you could look for ways to do better. Could you pre-teach those situations to head off behaviors? Are you using a lot of words when he's already hot? 

 

There's just a bunch there to look at.

Edited March 7, 2017 by OhElizabeth

[sbgrace]

I have a child who fit/fits that book, though it's been a long time since I read and loved it.

 

He does have dx's on top of being a dreamer. He's melting down with his dad right now. I guess I'm going to say do what you can to try to teach him how to deal with his emotions--the more in place before puberty the better I imagine. I wish I had known how to do more when mine was younger. It's true that he can't think when his emotional brain is in gear, so teaching and talking in the moment is worthless (still, guess what I just tried to do with my melting down kid just now...) Actually, I used a hand model to teach my son about the emotional and thinking parts of the brain. I can't find it now. I did find this one, but it's young and not as good as what I had before. video link:

 

I do have some resource ideas:

here is a book "What to Do When Your Temper Flares," that teaches kids cognitive behavioral techniques to deal with anger. https://www.amazon.com/What-When-Your-Temper-Flares/dp/1433801345 My son feels everything more, and "What to Do If you Grumble Too Much," has been quite helpful too when negative thinking became a habit for him. I'm using Zones of Regulation to try to help with emotional regulation. Mindfulness seems like it might help these types of kids, or at least my son, but we haven't waded into it as much as I should. He recently asked for more help in dealing with negative feelings and memories (he's so sensitive, and everything hurts and sticks), and I purchased a book on Tapping geared toward kids to try with him. Mostly, I guess, I would encourage you to try to work on helping him learn to process and mange emotions.

Edited March 8, 2017 by sbgrace

[tammyw]

I have an incredibly strong-willed child. I think I need to check this one out.

[FindingMyWay]

Thank you for those links and resources, sbgrace! I truly appreciate all the suggestions and ideas from everyone.