If you are okay with drinking as an adult, how do you think about alcohol and teens?

[Janeway]

My inlaws all drink heavily. They dont even know what an alcoholic is, but they all are alcoholics. The heavy drinking is so normalized in that family that they dont think any of them have problems. My side rarely drinks. On the rare occasion someone is involved in the family that drinks too much we all notice. The alcoholics never stick around as alcoholicd have little interest in non drinking get togethers. I think when alcoholism is normalized, the statistics show there is no problem. Just like the notion that there was no child abuse 200 years ago. When beating a child is normalized, statistics will show no abuse. It is not that child abuse is at a high now but rather that people are aware of it.

[QueenCat]

I believe the legal drinking age should be 19 and that moderate drinking is fine in college. Raising the age to 21 was stupid because it just drove all the college partying underground where there is less adult supervision and no paid bartender to cut people off after they've had too many.

 

I am against minors and young adults still in high school consuming alcohol.

 

I'd lower it to 18. If you can go to war, you should be able to have a legal drink.

[regentrude]

I would prefer that the drinking age be lowered to 18.  I do not see how it is rational to say that an 18 year old can vote and can join the military (and be taught to use weapons to kill people) but say that the same individuals are not able to make wise choices regarding their own consumption of alcohol.

 

This.

If the person is deemed mature enough to be able to judge when and how to use a deadly weapon, that person should be deemed mature enough to have a beer.

If the person cannot be trusted with a beer, he should most definitely not be trusted with a gun.

[Ravin]

My kids are offered sips of alcohol when they participate in religious rituals. Most of the drinking they have been around has been in a sacred space context, or not-excessive social drinking. They often see me modeling choosing not to drink or drinking only a little and waiting a set period before driving when we are out somewhere with friends.

 

I have/had extended family with alcohol problems, and as I grew up I was told about it and saw some of the consequences (my maternal grandmother only stopped drinking when she developed a seizure disorder). My parents drank very little when I was growing up. I was in the military from age 17, and acutely paranoid about getting in that sort of trouble, so the handful of times I drank before I turned 21, it was in moderation and far from any need to drive. 

 

Addiction is an important ongoing conversation to have. With DD, her medications mean it would be a very bad idea for her to drink much quantity of alcohol, even aside from age, and her mental health makes "self-medicating" and addiction something to be particularly worried about. She is, however, a rule-follower and hopefully keeps that tendency, as it will help keep her out of trouble.

[wintermom]

I'd raise the age for gun use, military service (not training) and driving, tbh, in line with drinking.

 

We know a lot more about how the brain is still developing at 18, 19, 20 +. 

 

Of course, this would require cultural change - HUGE cultural change, so it will never happen.

 

For all intents and purposes, however, our brains are not 'grown up' at 18.

 

Just because the brain is still developing doesn't mean people can't learn and be accountable. Look at all the colleges and universities around the world full of 17 - 20+ year olds studying to be doctors, nurses, lawyers, engineers, etc. Something is surely seeping into their developing brains?

[Joyofsixreboot]

I drank and partied because it was rebellious and my self concept was that I was a rebel, an intellectual stuck in the sticks, a poet. Ack! It was image just like cigarettes or whatever. I can't say it is the same for every teen. So far being open, allowing sips or a drink at home past 18 has mostly kept my older kids reasonable. Or maybe it's blind luck.

[wintermom]

Of course people can learn. 

 

That's a strange thing to take from what I said. 

 

Learning to drink responsibly is the key, isn't it? Supposedly Americans don't believe their youth can learn to do this until they are 21, though they can learn to be a soldier.

Edited February 21, 2017 by wintermom

[The Girls' Mom]

We don't drink any longer, but we did when the kids were younger.  We don't have a problem with other people drinking socially, but we don't allow it in the house.  We both have our own personal reasons for it, but it isn't because we think no one should drink or that it is sinful.

For us, we've done a couple of things.  

1. We have always emphasized following the law.  It is illegal to have/drink alcohol under 21.  You can cause the adults in your life to get arrested if it is thought that they are providing drinks.  Be responsible, don't do it.  

2.  We've talked a lot in our family about addiction and consequences of it. Genetically, our kids are pre-disposed to addiction problems.  They've seen some horrible results in family members.  Again, don't go down that road.  If you choose to drink as an adult, that is fine, but you need to be extremely aware of how you view it and be sure you aren't self-medicating.  

 

3.  We've taught them, and shown them, that you can have fun, throw parties, and be social, without a single sip of alcohol.  I think this is the draw for a lot of teens.  It seems like every fun occasion has a drink or three involved.  

4.  We've talked a lot about how it can dull your senses and cause you to lower your threshold of things you are willing to do.  It is more about personal responsibility and not putting yourself or others in compromising situations.  

So far, knock on wood, drinking hasn't been an issue at all for my kids.  One is 20, and has said she might have a drink or two with one of her close friends on her 21st birthday just to try it, but she hasn't had the urge to drink before now.  My younger two are almost 17, and their friend group as a whole doesn't drink.  They don't see it as something they have the desire to do.  

[Anne in CA]

You know, this is a really good point. There are kids of teetotalers who go crazy and kids of alcoholics who go crazy and everything in between. It can't JUST be the "forbidden fruit" thing. For most people, the effects of alcohol are enjoyable. Your point about self-control is a good one. (You just have to watch a teenager eating chips or ice cream to see why teenaged drinking can be problematic!) 

 

I think a big part of why my dd hasn't succumbed to the pressure to drink is that she's outgoing and confident. I think she would be a lot more tempted if she were shy. And you are so right about the "nothing else to do" thing. Spare me.

 

Do you think your teen would drink at the senior camp? Would you tell her not to? My senior wants to go to beach week. She thinks there probably will be alcohol present, though not everyone in her group would partake. Even though she doesn't drink (or hasn't yet), I'm uneasy. There will be parental supervision but I don't know the parents so that could mean anything. Sigh.

I am thinking of letting her go. I haven't decided yet because things can be so moment to moment with teens I need to know how our communication is between then and now. It is three months away. 

[Spryte]

I'd raise the age for gun use, military service (not training) and driving, tbh, in line with drinking.

 

We know a lot more about how the brain is still developing at 18, 19, 20 +. 

 

Of course, this would require cultural change - HUGE cultural change, so it will never happen.

 

For all intents and purposes, however, our brains are not 'grown up' at 18.

 

 

I agree that it's ludicrous that an 18 year old can be sent to war, drafted, etc, but can't drink.  

 

I also think it's not a good choice to throw alcohol into a still-developing brain.   Even though I find it somewhat counter-intuitive, as I've already said, I can understand that we are learning more about brain development and see that we may need to change some cultural ideas about drinking and when it's best introduced.

 

I see no reason for 18 year olds to need to go to war, so raising that age to match the drinking age, when the brain is more developed, makes sense to me.  And I say this as one coming from a military family.

 

That time between high school can be well spent in ways not holding a gun, and if military service is in one's future, that time can be spent learning things that will make that military service more valuable.  

 

I'm sure many will disagree with me.  

 

And that's okay, because those changes aren't happening anyway.  :)

[Guest]

I was just reading an article about this in The Atlantic. (I think it was Sept 2016 issue.) It did say that there is no connection at all between being allowed to have wine with dinner and not binge drinking in college. The kids just compartmentalize the activities. Being allowed to sip wine at home has nothing in common with binge drinking at a party. When young people binge drink, it's because they want that experience, not because they were or were not allowed to sip wine with family.

 

I do not/would not endorse underage drinking, full stop. I do not/will not knowingly allow my kids to go to parties with Get-Real parents who think they're doing some public service favor by allowing the kids to get drunk in the family room, safely driven home by Uber. No. If I know there will be alcohol served to minors, my kid is not going.

 

I am not religiously or otherwise opposed to alcohol. I drink mild drinks myself from time to time, and DH drinks beer regularly. But I don't model drunkenness to my kids and I am not a fan of that at all. It's one reason I did not repeat an extended-family trip to OBX. I'm not keen on my kids watching their aunts and uncles play beer pong and cackling up a storm.

[Guest]

I agree that it's ludicrous that an 18 year old can be sent to war, drafted, etc, but can't drink.

 

I also think it's not a good choice to throw alcohol into a still-developing brain. Even though I find it somewhat counter-intuitive, as I've already said, I can understand that we are learning more about brain development and see that we may need to change some cultural ideas about drinking and when it's best introduced.

 

I see no reason for 18 year olds to need to go to war, so raising that age to match the drinking age, when the brain is more developed, makes sense to me. And I say this as one coming from a military family.

 

That time between high school can be well spent in ways not holding a gun, and if military service is in one's future, that time can be spent learning things that will make that military service more valuable.

 

I'm sure many will disagree with me.

 

And that's okay, because those changes aren't happening anyway. :)

I'm with you. And I'm no dove. But yeah - no chance they will raise the military service age to 21.

[Guest]

I drank and partied because it was rebellious and my self concept was that I was a rebel, an intellectual stuck in the sticks, a poet. Ack! It was image just like cigarettes or whatever. I can't say it is the same for every teen. So far being open, allowing sips or a drink at home past 18 has mostly kept my older kids reasonable. Or maybe it's blind luck.

I think this is a big part of it - what the person's self-concept is. My self-concept was that I was a "good girl" and also very health conscious; plus, I was very protective of my brain cells! :)

[Guest]

I saw a counselor about another issue (not drinking) a couple of years ago, and one of the things he said is that if a person doesn't drink until they are 25, they stand a much better chance of avoiding alcoholism/addiction/irresponsible drinking.  While the brain is being formed (until about age 25), it's easier to get the brain trained to want alcohol.  

 

So.   I am not opposed to it for adults, but I definitely am for teens.  In general.  I also don't have a hard-and-fast stance, but a "muse" here.

[regentrude]

I think this is a big part of it - what the person's self-concept is. My self-concept was that I was a "good girl" and also very health conscious; plus, I was very protective of my brain cells! :)

 

I've been thinking about his some more, and you saying this reminds me that I never heard anybody back home in Germany say they "do not drink" as a matter of principle. Of course people temporarily don't consume alcohol when they are pregnant, nursing, on medication, or have to drive, but I can't recall ever encountering a teetotaler among friends, family, or my parents' friends circle. It may have to do with the cultural attitude that there is no moral judgment associated with alcohol consumption.

 

So, not drinking to be a "good girl" would not be a thing, because there is no judgment that alcohol=bad. I was a "good girl", and when I was 15, I got drunk for the only time in my life - because I had one glass of home made blackberry wine (which my good boy bf had created with parental permission in their apartment). It had absolutely nothing to do with rebellion, or with partying, or with drinking in order to get drunk - it was sheer inexperience: it tasted good (sugar content!), and I  had no idea what effect a single glass of wine would have. It was quite embarrassing and a great learning experience. I never ever missed the point where I should stop, and since I have an extremely low tolerance to alcohol, sometimes this point is before the first glass is empty.

But even making wine was considered a perfectly acceptable hobby for a well behaved 16 y/o "good kid".

 

Edited February 22, 2017 by regentrude

[wintermom]

When the PFC is under-developed, accurately assessing risk and behaving soberly (pun intended) is a real challenge. 

 

'Learning' to drink poses fewer risks the later it is done. I can't see any good reason why people want to fire that neurological trigger - the brain's reaction to alcohol - sooner rather than later.

 

Part of 'learning' can be understanding brain development, and encouraging teens to delay their first drink. 

 

Of course, part of 'learning' could also be society examining the way it enables and normalises drinking. 

 

So why decrease the legal drinking age in Australia so recently? It used to be 21 and now it's 18.

[wintermom]

That's not recent. It's been 18 since I was 18, and that's a while ago.

 

I'd prefer it to be higher.

 

You didn't state why the legal drinking age changed, though. 1970 is relatively recent, at least historically speaking.

Edited February 22, 2017 by wintermom

[bibiche]

DS has always been able to taste wine with dinner if he wanted, usually just with a finger dipped, occasionally the tiniest of sips. Wine complements food, and we like good food and encourage discussion about food and wine pairings. We do model responsible drinking. Most importantly, he is aware of brain research that shows that drinking and drugs are not good for brains before they are fully developed. I am not worried about him - he is a sensible, even-keeled fellow and not prone to peer pressure - but of course we will continue to have a close relationship and open conversations about drinking and drugs as he gets older.

[bibiche]

I'm fine with alcohol consumption as an adult but completely opposed to it under the legal age, except in unusual circumstances like religious practice or weddings.

 

For me it's about teaching them to observe the law and respect it, not judge whether it has merit enough to be followed. I feel the same way about speed limits. You can safely drive much faster, but that doesn't mean you should.

FYI, in your state of Alaska it would not be breaking the law to let a child consume alcohol at home with parents.

[Guest]

I've been thinking about his some more, and you saying this reminds me that I never heard anybody back home in Germany say they "do not drink" as a matter of principle. Of course people temporarily don't consume alcohol when they are pregnant, nursing, on medication, or have to drive, but I can't recall ever encountering a teetotaler among friends, family, or my parents' friends circle. It may have to do with the cultural attitude that there is no moral judgment associated with alcohol consumption.

 

So, not drinking to be a "good girl" would not be a thing, because there is no judgment that alcohol=bad. I was a "good girl", and when I was 15, I got drunk for the only time in my life - because I had one glass of home made blackberry wine (which my good boy bf had created with parental permission in their apartment). It had absolutely nothing to do with rebellion, or with partying, or with drinking in order to get drunk - it was sheer inexperience: it tasted good (sugar content!), and I had no idea what effect a single glass of wine would have. It was quite embarrassing and a great learning experience. I never ever missed the point where I should stop, and since I have an extremely low tolerance to alcohol, sometimes this point is before the first glass is empty.

But even making wine was considered a perfectly acceptable hobby for a well behaved 16 y/o "good kid".

Well, two things. First, my parents are teetotalers, so I'm sure I had a notion that drinking was flat-out sinful when I was a young teen. (I wasn't conscious of thinking this, but just saying I probably did because that was the model in my early teen years.) I'm sure in any case, I thought drunkenness was not principled behavior, in addition to just seeming unwise. (I still think this.)

 

Additionally, though, the law when I was a teen was 21, therefore, back to the "good girl" self-image. I wasn't into breaking the law; wasn't attracted to sneaking and risking getting caught and trying to find a way to get alcohol. My boyfriend in my late teens was the same way (probably the one good thing about him; okay, also he was buff) and we just had this unified idea that we could have all the fun we wanted sober.

 

So, for me, the "good girl" self concept did go a long way towards my attitudes towards alcohol and drugs use. Paired with high standards about being healthy and an avid learner, there wasn't anything appealing to me in drunkenness. I still feel this way; I'm not prone to overindulging in alcohol.

[Crimson Wife]

I'd lower it to 18. If you can go to war, you should be able to have a legal drink.

 

To join the military it is not just 18 but 18 AND a high school graduate. With a drinking age of 18, how would sellers enforce keeping it away from high school students? Require a copy of the diploma?

 

The reason for a legal drinking age of 19 is that most 19 y.o.'s are out of high school.

[regentrude]

Well, two things. First, my parents are teetotalers, so I'm sure I had a notion that drinking was flat-out sinful when I was a young teen. (I wasn't conscious of thinking this, but just saying I probably did because that was the model in my early teen years.) I'm sure in any case, I thought drunkenness was not principled behavior, in addition to just seeming unwise. (I still think this.)

 

Additionally, though, the law when I was a teen was 21, therefore, back to the "good girl" self-image. I wasn't into breaking the law; wasn't attracted to sneaking and risking getting caught and trying to find a way to get alcohol. My boyfriend in my late teens was the same way (probably the one good thing about him; okay, also he was buff) and we just had this unified idea that we could have all the fun we wanted sober.

 

Oh, I totally understand where you are coming from - my comment was not criticizing that. I was more musing about the very different attitudes towards alcohol I encountered growing up where I have never known anybody who considered alcohol sinful and where there was no law against alcohol consumption. (Both are still true for my home country)

 

So, for me, the "good girl" self concept did go a long way towards my attitudes towards alcohol and drugs use. Paired with high standards about being healthy and an avid learner, there wasn't anything appealing to me in drunkenness. I still feel this way; I'm not prone to overindulging in alcohol.

 

I do not find drunkenness appealing either, and I don't know anybody in my circle of friends (who all drink alcohol on occasion) who would find drunkenness or overindulging appealing.

But also, I have never even seen anybody get drunk at a party I attended. Not once. Not in college, not as an adult.

Edited February 22, 2017 by regentrude

[regentrude]

With a drinking age of 18, how would sellers enforce keeping it away from high school students? Require a copy of the diploma?

The reason for a legal drinking age of 19 is that most 19 y.o.'s are out of high school.

 

what does having finished highschool have to do with it?

If the issue is brain maturity, how does it matter whether the student has completed high school or not?

[Guest]

FYI, in your state of Alaska it would not be breaking the law to let a child consume alcohol at home with parents.

Legal drinking age is 21. Just because there is an exception for a parent or spouse if they intentionally serve their own minor doesn't make it legal in the broad sense for a minor to choose to drink. The parent can choose to allow it, but the minor cannot choose if their own volition and have it be legal.

 

Therefore illegal - because I am not giving them an opening to be an exception to the law.

Edited February 22, 2017 by Arctic Mama

[Crimson Wife]

what does having finished highschool have to do with it?

If the issue is brain maturity, how does it matter whether the student has completed high school or not?

 

I think it is a lot more feasible to try to keep high school students (who are most likely living under their parents' roofs) away from alcohol than it is college students. My parents had a lot of control over my access to alcohol when I was in high school but none after I went off to college.

 

[Guest]

I think it is a lot more feasible to try to keep high school students (who are most likely living under their parents' roofs) away from alcohol than it is college students. My parents had a lot of control over my access to alcohol when I was in high school but none after I went off to college.

 

I agree they need to raise the age of military service OR lower the drinking age. Until they do though, we deal with them as written. It's silly they aren't uniform.

[Joyofsixreboot]

I think this is a big part of it - what the person's self-concept is. My self-concept was that I was a "good girl" and also very health conscious; plus, I was very protective of my brain cells! :)

Considering my propensity to enter a room and wonder why that protection was a good call. 😊

[QueenCat]

To join the military it is not just 18 but 18 AND a high school graduate. With a drinking age of 18, how would sellers enforce keeping it away from high school students? Require a copy of the diploma?

 

The reason for a legal drinking age of 19 is that most 19 y.o.'s are out of high school.

 

The logistics shouldn't be the determining factor. I just don't buy into the idea that one is old enough to go to Iraq but not to walk into the 7Eleven and buy a beer.

[ktgrok]

Well, our oldest HAS been around drunk people, and has seen how they act. I then asked him, "do you think drinking made that person act older or more mature?" He definitely didn't think so, so hopefully that helps kill the myth that drinking makes you grown up or whatever. 

 

He has had sips of good wine and good single malt scotch...hopefull we are training him to have expensive taste so he can't afford to binge drink, lol. 

 

But really, that's just how I grew up...a few sips, maybe a tiny sherry glass of wine at Christmas (like...a few sips worth) and thanksgiving. Saw my parents have a drink or two at most. It just wasn't a big deal. I got drunk once in high school, again in college a few times, and then most of my life have stuck to one or two drinks when I drink. One very fun halloween with my DH is an exception..>i did get quite tipsy and end up asking a mounted policeman if I could pet his horse :)  And lost my shoes in downtown Orlando, lol. But I was with someone safe, who wasn't drunk. THAT is what I will really push on my kids, the loss of the ability to make good decisions.