Your favorite "how to teach (SNs)" books

[AimeeM]

I know we have threads about this, so links would be great. I just bought Right Brained Children in a Left Brained World, but some of the other "greats" are out of print -- and I'm not going to spend $50 on them used :P

 

Specifically, books about educating children with autism, adhd, dyslexia, and/or physical disabilities.  

 

 

[PeterPan]

No Mind Left Behind: Understanding and Fostering Executive Control--The Eight Essential Brain SkillsE very Child…

 

Teaching the Restless: One School's Remarkable no-Ritalin Approach to Helping Children Learn and Succeed

 

I'm shocked any of the "greats" were so expensive! Usually you can find things for a penny plus shipping. What were you looking for?

 

I'm reading that Restless book right now, and it's really good. Like I'm reading every page good. Last book I did that on was School of Dreams: Making the Grade at a Top American High School

 

Supposedly there are some books about homeschooling autism, but I haven't read them. There's Gaddis' book. She came on here a couple years ago, and you can site search to find the (very long) thread. I really don't think it's adequate to take books for ADHD, SLDs, or general SN situations and hope they translate over to autism. Like maybe they do. Elements do. I just find myself left with a lot of extra questions, wanting the extra step, the double check. 

 

For instance, right now in Restless the chapters I'm reading are exploring self-regulation and emotional regulation in the context of freedom of choice vs. license. This is HUGE! And this is, of course, something a lot of books try to hit on. Thing is, what I HAVEN'T seen is somebody who pulls that together and shows how our autism concepts (relational goals, reciprocity, interaction, flexibility, etc.) connect with that. I KNOW they can in theory, but I also know that implemented straight it would be easy, at least in our house, for that to revert right back to perseverations, being stuck, lots of rigidity, lots of non-compliance, etc. But I also think there's something to this idea that super bright kids with autism are going to NEED to have some driving process in this, choice, emotional regulation through self-regulation. That makes sense to me. And to keep it entirely parent or therapist driven forever doesn't really seem to fit with that. 

 

And maybe thinking of it as therapist-driven forever is not an accurate presentation of ABA goals. It sure is school, my lands, and ABA and school are like goats and gloves, the one presenting its skin to make the other happen. But I also know we had to have help to get where we are, and where we are is good! I just look at it and think wow, I wonder if these things can be stepping stones to get to another place, a place where he's making more choices and still able to relate and be out of the closet. Like could we eventually have BOTH. 

 

In other words, the more complex the situation, the more worthless I think the books are. Ain't nobody else got your kid. So fine, somebody wrote a book about their kid. I read this one ebook about how christians ought to homeschool autism, and the woman goes on and on, and she's all endorsed, and you leave the book going MY GOD I'VE DONE EVERYTHING WRONG AND AM FAILING. Then I realized how short-sighted that endorser was. He picked one woman with one child with autism and decided to hold her up like she had found the FORMULA, the it. Or maybe I just took it that way.

 

I'm not convinced there is a formula or an it. Nothing I ever read to help my dd (straight ADHD) seems to answer the deep questions I try to sort out for ds. Nothing I've ever read on autism really sorts them out either. I think some kids are just complex. I think my goals are complex. I don't know how many of them I keep coming up with are even realistic. Like CAN he be stable and relational in an environment with more choice? I don't know. I think we could get there, but I'm not certain. And it doesn't imply EVERY person with xyz labels could, so I'd never write a book and say to do it. Whenever we finish, I'm gonna go hole up and crochet and beg to be left alone, because he's unique.

 

PS. I hope you find books you like. Apparently I don't like any of 'em, lol. I try to read broadly and read things I disagree with, things that make me think or challenge me.

Edited February 19, 2017 by OhElizabeth

[Lecka]

This is a book I have got from the library: Teaching Your Child With Love and Skill by Joyce Show.

 

She has a lot of ideas and talks about and explains some different therapy approaches.

[PeterPan]

Yes, the Show book is actually worth buying!! Like even at full price worth buying. Tremendous book. One I could only read a little at a time.

[AimeeM]

Specifically, I was looking at Upside Down Brilliance -- which is $30-$50+ used. 

 

Thanks, guys! I'll look at all of these recommendations.

[AimeeM]

Like you, I'm less inclined to think that I'm going to find anything that is specific to my autistic kiddo because, really, he's just a complex child -- and his needs are just NOT straightforward. 

My older two have more linear needs. DD15, for example, is pretty classically dyslexic and adhd. Her needs, as she struggles through high school, are pretty "typical" for her learning differences. Namely, executive function, and the struggle that comes with having a high IQ and deeper conceptual needs than she is capable of accessing on her own. In fact, right now I would say that she struggles more with the emotional side of academics than anything -- how she fits into this academic world she longs to fit into, but can't quite reach. If that makes any sense.

DS7 is medically complex, but like DD15, his needs academic are pretty classical to dyslexics. Well, not entirely since he does have some social and emotional needs more related to his medical issues, but... well.

 

DS4 (my autistic kiddo) is one I'm just kind of flying-by-the-seat-of-my-pants with. I second guess myself constantly. And I probably always will. Right now I'm panicking because he just lost his EI (he turns 5 in a couple months, so he ages out of EI, and his beloved Interventionist is moving anyway, so it seemed like a good time to part ways with early intervention in general, as opposed to being assigned a new one for just a couple months). She's been with us from the get-go, for years now, and the loss I feel (simply having her THERE if I needed her) is more than I expected.

No Mind Left Behind: Understanding and Fostering Executive Control--The Eight Essential Brain SkillsE very Child…

 

Teaching the Restless: One School's Remarkable no-Ritalin Approach to Helping Children Learn and Succeed

 

I'm shocked any of the "greats" were so expensive! Usually you can find things for a penny plus shipping. What were you looking for?

 

I'm reading that Restless book right now, and it's really good. Like I'm reading every page good. Last book I did that on was School of Dreams: Making the Grade at a Top American High School

 

Supposedly there are some books about homeschooling autism, but I haven't read them. There's Gaddis' book. She came on here a couple years ago, and you can site search to find the (very long) thread. I really don't think it's adequate to take books for ADHD, SLDs, or general SN situations and hope they translate over to autism. Like maybe they do. Elements do. I just find myself left with a lot of extra questions, wanting the extra step, the double check. 

 

For instance, right now in Restless the chapters I'm reading are exploring self-regulation and emotional regulation in the context of freedom of choice vs. license. This is HUGE! And this is, of course, something a lot of books try to hit on. Thing is, what I HAVEN'T seen is somebody who pulls that together and shows how our autism concepts (relational goals, reciprocity, interaction, flexibility, etc.) connect with that. I KNOW they can in theory, but I also know that implemented straight it would be easy, at least in our house, for that to revert right back to perseverations, being stuck, lots of rigidity, lots of non-compliance, etc. But I also think there's something to this idea that super bright kids with autism are going to NEED to have some driving process in this, choice, emotional regulation through self-regulation. That makes sense to me. And to keep it entirely parent or therapist driven forever doesn't really seem to fit with that. 

 

And maybe thinking of it as therapist-driven forever is not an accurate presentation of ABA goals. It sure is school, my lands, and ABA and school are like goats and gloves, the one presenting its skin to make the other happen. But I also know we had to have help to get where we are, and where we are is good! I just look at it and think wow, I wonder if these things can be stepping stones to get to another place, a place where he's making more choices and still able to relate and be out of the closet. Like could we eventually have BOTH. 

 

In other words, the more complex the situation, the more worthless I think the books are. Ain't nobody else got your kid. So fine, somebody wrote a book about their kid. I read this one ebook about how christians ought to homeschool autism, and the woman goes on and on, and she's all endorsed, and you leave the book going MY GOD I'VE DONE EVERYTHING WRONG AND AM FAILING. Then I realized how short-sighted that endorser was. He picked one woman with one child with autism and decided to hold her up like she had found the FORMULA, the it. Or maybe I just took it that way.

 

I'm not convinced there is a formula or an it. Nothing I ever read to help my dd (straight ADHD) seems to answer the deep questions I try to sort out for ds. Nothing I've ever read on autism really sorts them out either. I think some kids are just complex. I think my goals are complex. I don't know how many of them I keep coming up with are even realistic. Like CAN he be stable and relational in an environment with more choice? I don't know. I think we could get there, but I'm not certain. And it doesn't imply EVERY person with xyz labels could, so I'd never write a book and say to do it. Whenever we finish, I'm gonna go hole up and crochet and beg to be left alone, because he's unique.

 

PS. I hope you find books you like. Apparently I don't like any of 'em, lol. I try to read broadly and read things I disagree with, things that make me think or challenge me.

 

Edited February 19, 2017 by AimeeM

[PeterPan]

nt

Edited February 19, 2017 by OhElizabeth

[AimeeM]

I assume you saw this?

 

‎www.pegy.org.uk/Upside-Down%20Brilliance%20-A4%20pdf.pdf

 

You probably also know this, but there was some controversy with her, accusations of skewed data or evals, something. I wouldn't have really plopped her in the greats, and maybe by now the ideas are old enough that other books would cover the same ground less expensively.

*sigh*

No, no I didn't know that. Thank you, though. Saves me $50 that I probably would have spent just because I "heard" it was the best. 

Edited February 19, 2017 by AimeeM

[PeterPan]

Oh well I'm not meaning to burst your bubble. It might be fine. There are lots of people who talk about it. I think maybe when she coined her terms and ideas it was more innovative. Now you could get similar info multiple places. 

 

Upside-Down Brilliance | The Right Side of Normal

 

There's someone who's very into that thought process. 

[PeterPan]

Would EI transition you over to an IEP at this age? Just in talking with people, it seems like people who go into the IEP process from EI have a better experience than people who do it later as far as getting services, getting well-treated, etc. Just my observation, nothing concrete. There could be *some* things you'd want or other advantages to going ahead and getting that paper trail. It might be worth the effort, given that you're noticing that maybe all by yourself is stark too.

 

Hmm, I can see what you're saying about wanting a broad variety for your other kiddos! I assume you've already read Dyslexic Advantage?

 

These lists and patterns are so funny to me. Some people find them very insightful, almost prophetic. If it's helpful, definitely read in that vein. 

[Guest]

Teaching the Restless: One School's Remarkable no-Ritalin Approach to Helping Children Learn and Succeed

Different people have different views, of course, but this review of the book said it all to me.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/customer-reviews/R3J4AS12290XRG/ref=cm_cr_dp_d_rvw_ttl?ie=UTF8&ASIN=0807032468

 

ETA: I wouldn't put this one on my list.

Edited February 19, 2017 by Guest

[PeterPan]

Different people have different views, of course, but this review of the book said it all to me.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/customer-reviews/R3J4AS12290XRG/ref=cm_cr_dp_d_rvw_ttl?ie=UTF8&ASIN=0807032468

 

ETA: I wouldn't put this one on my list.

 

Oh that's fine, I'm sure someone has bad opinions about it! That makes my point EXACTLY. I try to read things I disagree with, things that stretch me. Otherwise, where am I, patting myself on the head and saying I already have it all figured out? 

 

I could do worse. I could just go pick up a BJU catalog and sit there reading it straight and buying all the videos and doing what they say.  :svengo: Nobody is going to write controversial reviews of BJU and say they're horrible, because they're not. They just wouldn't be creating the situation that MY dc needs. But for somebody else's family, fine and dandy. 

 

So sure I'll read that review, but it really only means it didn't fit that person's situation. It doesn't mean it fit NOBODY'S or that there weren't elements of truth to find or ideas to think about and discuss. We talk about the overlap between ASD and ADHD here all the time. The things that make that Free School work in Restless ARE, ARE, ABSOLUTELY ARE things that were good about homeschooling my ADHD-straight dd. So I think it's totally valid to ask what could apply to my ds. 

 

The first homeschooling books I read were on unschooling. I read the Moore's, Better Late than Early, Better than School... I like the conflict it sets up in my mind where I ask why it could work for some but not others. I like asking whether it REALLY worked for those dc or whether there was more people weren't disclosing. I absolutely think that can be the case! 

 

So whatever. For me, I like reading things I disagree with.

[PeterPan]

Yeah, I'm skimming that review. I know I'm a terrible reader and miss a lot, but that woman read a different book. Fine, whatever. I think people should read the book for themselves, rather than freaking out about it. We can think and form our own opinions and spit out the parts that don't fit. That woman is entirely defensive in that review, and frankly she, at the time of her review, hadn't homeschooled a whole lot. I've gotten my ADHD-straight dd essentially through her senior year. I think I have *some* room to say yeah certain things resonate with me. And I'm cool with disagreeing. And I think we're smart enough to know that there's a broad range of experiences and just how people get places. ADHD kids are no more homogenous than ASD kids, and frankly there IS significant discussion of the "does ADHD exist" question. That's actually a really legit thing serious people discuss. To blow that off is to miss the profundity of the point, which is that there's a lot they DON'T know. They diagnose based on symptoms rather than genes or anything concrete. That's how they end up in the stupid situations we're in now, with 12 kinds of autism all lumped together as one and other lunacy. 

 

I was just reading an article on mitochondrial activity testing and autism disorder. They are finally getting some concrete things they could actually test in non-invasive, reasonable ways. I mean, think about how many kids we have here who ping pong back and forth between ADHD and ASD labels, losing, gaining, flipping. It's STUPID. The DSM is lunacy.

 

The Restless book is largely case stories, and any time you're dealing with specific people's stories, you have self-selection going on. You also have the curious question of how things turned out and whether you'd be happy with the consequences. Like they have sort of a Boys Town mentality going on. It really works, but that doesn't mean that dc would have the social thinking to translate well to other situations. It just means in their setting he got functional. But for someone, that might be a really acceptable compromise! It might really work! It's like saying my ds' behavior isn't good enough if he needs apps between church services to stay calm. We make compromises. And people can get really whatever, but I've really tossed idealism out the window.

 

So whatever. That woman didn't have a lot of life experience and water under the bridge to understand what she was reading. When *I* read Restless, I go oh my lands we've done that. We've DONE this stuff in our home, and I look at things and wonder what I could do better and how they were doing it and what effect it had to structure things the way they did. Did that woman discuss license vs. freedom to choose? What a pivotal, pivotal concept in homeschooling!!!  

 

It's a very profound book. Don't skip it because of hasty reviews. Disagree with it, sure.

[Guest]

OhE, I totally respect your right to your own views! Just pointing out that the reviewer quotes the book while stressing the premise the book was based on, which is, that dysfunction in the family creates ADHD and that ADHD does not exist. The reviewer also points out that the supporting data quoted in the book, dates back to 1998.

 

Perhaps you are not far enough into reading the book to have come across this yet?

 

I was not looking to start a debate, which is why I am not sharing my opinion or suggesting resources. I was just trying to point this out in case it gets missed. And, yes, I also read things that stretch my thinking. I always weigh them first by my values, though, and my family's values.

 

ETA: Had to edit a bit due to bad tablet edit.

Edited February 19, 2017 by Guest

[AimeeM]

Hey guys. Thanks again for all of the input. I've no desire to read anything that asserts ADHD doesn't exist. I'm looking for helpful literature -- not their opinions regarding whether legitimate dx's are "real" (to them) or not. 

[PeterPan]

Well it's one of those things you can pick up for free at the library and peruse for yourself. I've read several ADHD does not exist type books and that's really not the point of the book. That reviewer had a 6 yo, was a novice homeschooler, and she goes off on a rant about meds, utterly missing the PROFOUND, really serious issues the book is tackling. And sure, disagree with them or say wow doesn't work for every kid, fine. I'm just saying, she missed a lot of great stuff in the book. But it's true, I seem to have an ability to read a book and spit out the parts that don't fit and latch onto the concepts that do.

 

-license vs. free choice

-self-regulation leading to emotional regulation

-tabula rosa vs. damien

-"friendship deficit deficiency" 

-the value of social skills and relationship-building in the school day

-mentoring in education

-animals in education

-access to non-traditional subjects like woodworking, wrestling, etc.

-non-confrontational ways to make cause/effect clear for kids who MISS cause/effect with their actions

-collaborative, community-based discipline for people who struggle to understand top-down authority 

 

And it's true, I'm only to chapter 5. But me, I've found it really thought provoking. But yeah, if you stumble over the guy saying that he has every kid who comes into their school taken off all meds (stimulants, mood stabilizers, etc.), then I guess it's not the book for you. But I think you can keep your meds and still benefit from the ideas, my lands. I'm going to keep reading the book, because the issues those kids struggle with are issues MY kid struggles with. (cause effect, noticing, etc.)

 

And yes, it's absurd to say it's a book about straight ADHD kids. Some of these kids would definitely have non-mainstreamed placements and ED labels, yes. 

 

Whatever, fine, blow it off. Doesn't bug me that the methods might work for some kids and not others. Kids just have varying degrees of challenges. I just like that he's bringing up issues that make me THINK. That collaborative, socially-driven, interactive kind of thing is what we've got going. I had been wondering how we could bring in more choice to improve his ability to self-advocate and thus self-regulate. I think this is good stuff! To me truth is truth, whether I find it in an ABA book or a Free School book or WTM or wherever. I just look for what's true and good. I even like it when I see the overlap. Like I know ABA *says* they want kids to learn to self-regulate, but HOW DOES THAT LOOK with a really, really bright kid? What does that look like in our house? I don't think straight ABA is fundamentally trying to make happen what I have in my mind. There's this constant fight. And yet ABA *has* been good for us the way we've done it so far, as a stepping stone. But I think it has to mature into something.

 

So sure, I'll read stuff that is edgy and out there. Go read books like Better Than School. That was one of the first books I ever read on homeschooling. I think it's important to stretch your pre-suppositions.

[Guest]

AimeeM, I noticed in another thread that you said you are not pro-ABA, correct? Not sure if you know anything about Stanley Greenspan (DIR/ Floortime). He has several books out, The Learning Tree being his last before he passed. I own four of his books. I recently purchased his ADHD book and have just started reading it. Check them out and see if you could find something that fits what you are looking for.

[Guest]

Another you could look at is *1001 Great Ideas for Teaching & Raising Children with Autism or Asperger's* by Ellen Notbohm and Veronica Zysk (foreword from Temple Grandin and a favorable review by Tony Attwood). This one is an award winner and covers a lot of ground with many many practical tips.

[Guest]

Have you read anything by Dr. Temple Grandin? You could take a look at *The Way I See It*. Not a how to book, but quite useful with some general tips you can expand on. Chapter 2 covers "Teaching and Education".

[Guest]

OhE, I wasn't sure if the meds comment was just a general comment (I assume it was), but just for the sake of possible wrong impressions by those reading this, I will clarify that neither one of my boys is on meds, and we do not have any intentions of putting them on meds now or any time in the near future.

[Guest]

OhE, this is for you. You mentioned about ABA and bright kids and you reminded me of something I had read from Temple Grandin. I'll attach it in case you find it useful in some way. Note, Temple Grandin is not against ABA, so it is not my purpose for linking it.

 

http://www.medscape.org/viewarticle/498153

[PeterPan]

OhE, I wasn't sure if the meds comment was just a general comment (I assume it was), but just for the sake of possible wrong impressions by those reading this, I will clarify that neither one of my boys is on meds, and we do not have any intentions of putting them on meds now or any time in the near future.

 

I'm not sure what comment you're referring to, but as someone who is in the VERY POSITION that Restless is talking about (with practitioners more interested in biopsychiatric than actual problem-solving), I really, really find the discussion in the book useful. That mom doing that review had a 6 year old, was defensive, and hasn't been where I am. I GET why that guy is fighting against it so hard, because if there ARE other ways to get there, we ought to be using them! 

 

 

OhE, this is for you. You mentioned about ABA and bright kids and you reminded me of something I had read from Temple Grandin. I'll attach it in case you find it useful in some way. Note, Temple Grandin is not against ABA, so it is not my purpose for linking it.

 

http://www.medscape.org/viewarticle/498153

 

Interesting. She came to our town a few years ago and visited some local autism schools, etc., so I kind of heard feedback. I've heard feedback from other ways too. I think she's more strict and has higher standards of expected behavior than most people imagine. From what I'm told, she's very no muss, no fuss and thinks that low demands, low expectations help no one. Her take of work on it then move on is kind of interesting. I agree at some point you have that reality check. I think maybe that's partly what I'm feeling with ds. He had a growth spurt recently and grew 3/4" of an inch! He really just seems more ready to take ownership of some things. 

 

She emphasizes language and ST in that interview, and that's interesting too. We let that go to focus on some other things, and really we've seen regression there. We need to do fresh evals and quantify it, then we'll go back at it. For instance, we were playing a game this morning (Clumsy Thief, very fun!) and he wanted to just grunt or demand, rather than using all his language. We get a lot of that and it's always something we're working against. She talks about her mother making sure people played with her, and that's DEFINITELY something our workers do! We call it ABA but that's just an umbrella term. I pay people to PLAY with my kid, just like those people were playing with Temple Grandin. I pay them to play wii, legos, light brite, anything. He was overwhelming to other kids to play with, so he needed adults to do it. They can make small demands and get him accustomed to what other kids expect. Now it's easier for him to play for a bit and be appropriate. It has taken a lot just to tone him down to where he can play with an adult whose not familiar with him and be ok.

 

We don't do any aversive ABA. When you talk Floortime and things, this is stuff our behaviorist is conversant on. ABA is a pretty big umbrella, so you can find people to help you who are doing those kinds of things. There's another play therapy approach popular around here now. There's RDI. You can find lower level people with less training who just have learned that one niche, or you can get someone kind of umbrella. It doesn't have to be stuff you don't want.

Edited February 20, 2017 by OhElizabeth

[Guest]

But I think you can keep your meds and still benefit from the ideas, my lands. I'm going to keep reading the book, because the issues those kids struggle with are issues MY kid struggles with. (cause effect, noticing, etc.)

This was the point that you mentioned the meds. Sounds like a general comment, but I felt the need to clarify in case it caused some misconceptions in other readers' minds.

 

I am not overly concerned about the reviewer's background.

 

The talk about ADHD, is various opinions from various people for their own reasons. I take what makes sense to me. The ADHD debate does not even enter my head. I can't really say I'm interested in other people's agendas, and there are many agendas stemming from the various interest/ advocate groups. I just look at, OK, both my boys have autism and ADHD. They have strengths and they have challenges. I work with them to find solutions that work for them. Sadly, that is not the approach followed by ABA.

 

Yes, a lot appears the same between some ABA programs and floortime, but there are fundamental differences. ABA trains the behaviors using play, floortime (to use it as an example) uses play to familiarize the child with healthy interactions and communication so that the behaviors become unnecessary.

 

Temple Grandin's mom was big on old fashioned proper manners. That is what she talks about and is big on. It is something we stress also with our boys.

Edited August 17, 2017 by Guest

[Guest]

Ooops, I meant the reviewer's background. Editing now....

[Guest]

nm

Edited August 17, 2017 by Guest

[PeterPan]

Honestly, you're splitting hairs here that I can't see. Calling it breaks is semantics, and it's because they have to call it SOMETHING. It's like when everybody is their "friend" at the autism charter and with all the workers that come here. We have to call them SOMETHING, so they are friends. It's warm, cozy, and communicates good things. Bet they don't do that in traditional school. ;) Anyways, no there is no withholding or delay of sensory breaks, my lands. They take data on how the student is doing and try to stay at the front end. So we know that under high stress he might need a sensory or motion break literally every 5 minutes. We have data that shows that's where he started and that's how far back we have to pull sometimes. And when we see that happening, that's what we do. Every 5 minutes if necessary, as much as necessary. But on a good day, when he's really kicking butt, he might go 20-30 minutes or even longer. But they take data and they know how long they're getting. 

 

We're saying the same thing. We're not disagreeing here. 

[Guest]

OhE, not splitting hairs at all! There are fundamental differences! Just like CBT is not like ABA, and those two are *both* behavioral approaches. I won't get into that though, because it involves linking the different schools of thought in psychology and the history of behavioral psychology, and I doubt too many people have any interest in that LOL, just like, in my case, I don't care about the advocate group controversy LOL. I'll just attach this video of a school that follows the DIR model and I'll leave it at that :)

 

[Lecka]

I thought of another one -- I do like Alan Kazdin. He has some good ideas.

 

I don't totally do his stuff, but I have definitely gotten ideas.

[Guest]

https://youtu.be/JVZSVmSkGIw