Giving up.

[Sdel]

I'm done. I can not continue to spend 4+ hours daily fighting with DD because she just flat out refuses to try to use her brain. I spent 6 hours with her pretending she didn't know how to do her work simple two digit - 1 digit math problem. Why....because it was Valentine's Day and she felt she shouldn't have to do school.

 

Today she's picking a fight because I've informed her I will no longer be her teacher. She spent the first hour telling me she didn't want to go to regular school. She spent the second hour telling me she refused to go to regular school. She's spent the third hour making noises and doing anything but her work. She keeps trying to get me to answer her one digit + one digit problems for her.

 

She does this in every subject, every day. She decides she wants to do something else so she makes her school work impossible.

 

I'm done. She is barely doing first grade work and is fighting me daily. She does not have comprehension problems/ability problems for what I am asking her to complete. DH is refusing to send her to public school. He's delusional if he thinks a private school will take her. We don't have any of the fancy learning disability private schools that would be willing to remediate her. I flat out refuse to do anything with school with her right now.

 

Stefanie

[EmmaNZ]

I have no advice for you, but I wanted to give you a  :grouphug:

[Tess in the Burbs]

I don't know what age child you are talking about, but I have one that has always complained, delayed work, and been a royal pain in the butt about school.  I did have to do a math break for a month when first grade age.  He's done multiple 'go to work' days raking leaves and moving dirt  in the yard instead of school and eventually decided school was better than moving dirt in the rain.  The advice here has often been 'take a break' and 'go do something fun'.  It's good advice even if you don't want to do it.  I won't lie...my complaining kid is still a complainer.  School isn't an option for us, but I've been 'done' many a time.  I find I need the break as much as my kid.  But if it's a younger kid...do less school and play more.  My kids don't remember anything we did in elementary school (even showing them the fun lapbooks!).  I wish I had done less and played more.  Just like the advice I was given way back then.  I've found I'm more lax the older my kids get about school. Learning is so much better when done naturally.  We still do school, but some days we need a break.  Or a fun road trip.  Don't beat yourself up.  Set goals for school together.  Have priorities on the same page.  Work together to get as much done as you can.  And play more.  I'm off to play a game with mine now before lunch.  B/c we are all tired and just need some fun. 

[Sdel]

She's 9, supposed to be in 4th grade next year, and has been doing first grade math for three years. She does NOT need a "break". That may in part be a lot of the problem....to many breaks.

 

Stefanie

[freesia]

I agree--it depends on how old she is.  If she is younger than 6 or 7, I'd probably work on the complaining.  Older than that and I would probably seriously consider sending her to school.  I have one who is a complainer and likes to try to punish me for giving said child work.  However, said child does end up doing hte work every time.  I concentrate on making it no worth his/her while to act like that--sending to room, sending next door to work with dh.  It ramps up when I just fuss and don't have clear boundaries. 

 

If she won't do work for you, you do need to send her to school. Public schools often have better resources for special needs than private schools.

[AnthemLights]

I like what Tess said.  Something else to think about....don't know if it will help, so feel free to ignore.   :001_cool:

 

I had one child who was really good at math, but who still complained a lot.  I think it was mostly because he thought it was too easy.  I cut the problems way down.  Maybe 5 out of 30 problems or whatever. We agreed if he had a good attitude and did his work quickly we would skip the rest.  That helped a lot.  And as long as he wasn't struggling with new material or remembering old stuff, I was fine with that.  

  

 

With other subjects, I tended to be real relaxed - especially in elementary school.  Hands on projects and videos, lots of reading together.  I hope you can figure things out.  :grouphug:

[kbutton]

DH is refusing to send her to public school. He's delusional if he thinks a private school will take her. We don't have any of the fancy learning disability private schools that would be willing to remediate her. I flat out refuse to do anything with school with her right now.

 

:grouphug:

 

I hope your DH realizes that he's putting you in a very difficult position with this stance. "It's his kid too" doesn't just mean calling the shots; it means solving the problem without throwing you under the bus. 

 

Sorry if I am being too forward.

 

I am so, so sorry you are at this point. It must be a very anxious and frustrating time for you. 

[poppy]

I am sorry . I get it.

 

Here is what i would do . If she is regressing and battling that much , and private school is out , and public school is out... I'd unschool. Child interest led, positive reinforcement only, learn through strewing , heck with math. Maybe try to relight that spark.

 

You say you've had too many breaks. Maybe you've done the above and are over it - I'm sure you tried a lot of things. Just wanted to share what my thought was.

[itsheresomewhere]

For the rest of the month, I would have her plan out her school day.  Give her the requirements and tell her she needs to cover those.  Then I would take that time I would be doing this and start looking at options for next year.

 

 Could you and your DH schedule a few tours at the private schools?  That might help your DH see that they won't be able to meet her needs.

[PeterPan]

You're on LC, so I'll just ask. You've done evals or no evals? And who did the evals? (ps or private psych?) While it *can* on occasion work out well to unschool a dc with SLDs, in general it might not be an effect tact. And even if it were, frankly it sounds like she has more going on than straight SLDs. That's the kind of stuff my ds would do, and he has an autism diagnosis. I mean, not meaning to be blunt, but that's some pretty outrageous behavior from a 9 yo.

 

Your dh doesn't have the right to say he won't enroll her. You're a parent too. What are your state's homeschool laws? Are you in compliance? Take her to the ps today (they're still open), enroll her, done. Like end this discussion. It's over. Because if your state doesn't have laws, you need at least the truancy laws to help you. And if your state does have homeschool laws, then I can't fathom how you're in compliance.

[Sdel]

I am sorry . I get it.

 

Here is what i would do . If she is regressing and battling that much , and private school is out , and public school is out... I'd unschool. Child interest led, positive reinforcement only, learn through strewing , heck with math. Maybe try to relight that spark.

 

You say you've had too many breaks. Maybe you've done the above and are over it - I'm sure you tried a lot of things. Just wanted to share what my thought was.

We've tried unschooled. She refuses to do that to.

 

Stefanie

[poppy]

Oh wow. It sounds miserable for all involved . I have to agree an evaluation sounds like a good idea . You should not go on like this. It sounds so hard .

[EKS]

I would put her in public school for the remainder of the year and the day I enrolled her I would get the ball rolling on an evaluation (though the school).  I know your husband is against putting her in school, but unless he is willing to take on all of the teaching himself, IMO he really doesn't have a vote.  

[Sdel]

For the rest of the month, I would have her plan out her school day. Give her the requirements and tell her she needs to cover those. Then I would take that time I would be doing this and start looking at options for next year.

.

Done that. Lasts maybe 30 minutes, or until she realizes that watching TV won't cut it. Sorry, she's beyond the point where marathoning Curious George or Magic School Bus can be called "school" and that is all she'd be willing to do at this point.

 

Stefanie

[Sdel]

Right now she's being the perfect studious angel for DH and working him like a pro to get him to give her the answers. She's doing a good job proving my point about how she's capable but unwilling to DH thinking she's showing him how it's all me.

 

Of course, his grand plan is to stick her on IXL and see how that goes. Told him fine, if that is how he wanted to educate than he could do it. Asked him what the plan was for when she decided the "certificate" wasn't a real reward and she started refusing. *sigh*

 

Stefanie

[PeterPan]

Enroll her. She's learning at home all right. She's learning how to treat you very ill. Whatever is wrong, it's wrong. So walk. If he wants to be home with her, fine. Drop her off at school and go have coffee. Some people have to learn the hard way how nice they had it.

[PeterPan]

The point is, there has to be something called a CONSEQUENCE. Right now, she treats you like crap and there's no consequence. So you enroll her, and then if next fall she decides hey she can comply in a prompt, respectful way, fine. But then she knows you really mean it when you say one screw up, over, done, your butt is back in school. 

 

Right now she has no consequence, so of course she's walking all over you. And somehow other adults in the house think that's ok. It's not. Doesn't matter why it's happening. The solution is always to have a consequence. So what's the consequence today? She treats you like crap and as long as she works for him later she's off scott free??? No consequence???  And you're ok with that??

Edited February 15, 2017 by OhElizabeth

[Sdel]

Yep, OhE, that is where I am at. Of course.....the novelty of dad is already wearing off. I can tell by the course of the conversation. She's telling him 6+4 = 14 and his response was "really!? your just going to keep guessing until I tell you it's correct?"

 

Stefanie

[Sdel]

I left to pick up GS at 1. She's still on math and it's 3:30. It's a challenge type problem, but she is more than capable. They give you a triangle with the points blank and in the center of each line they have a number that represents a sum. She is supposed to find the three number combos that add up to each sum. The biggest sum on the triangle is 10.

 

Stefanie

[Ausmumof3]

Do you have a diagnosis? 9yo on 1st grade math doesn't seem right.

[Sdel]

No one will diagnose anything. I'm convinced autism is part of it. She's been denying that she should have to live in reality and have consequences since at least 3 years old. She has generalized gross/fine motor issues, but insurance won't pay so therapists blow off her evals. So far, psychs are too caught up in their own agendas to diagnose. One only saw ADHD, despite another in the know mom saying her scores shows NVLD and not to be surprised when meds didn't do anything. They don't. Another psych, with out doing any tests, just a history screen, refused to even consider autism: she's just a premise, these issues are common, stick her in a math program that'll make her do 100 timed rote math problems.

 

Stefanie

[mellifera33]

No one will diagnose anything. I'm convinced autism is part of it. She's been denying that she should have to live in reality and have consequences since at least 3 years old. She has generalized gross/fine motor issues, but insurance won't pay so therapists blow off her evals. So far, psychs are too caught up in their own agendas to diagnose. One only saw ADHD, despite another in the know mom saying her scores shows NVLD and not to be surprised when meds didn't do anything. They don't. Another psych, with out doing any tests, just a history screen, refused to even consider autism: she's just a premise, these issues are common, stick her in a math program that'll make her do 100 timed rote math problems.

 

Stefanie

 

:grouphug:  This sounds so frustrating. 

[Heathermomster]

Was a WISC-IV run? If so, what were the subtest numbers?

[Sdel]

These were done a little over a year ago.

 

WISC -IV

Verbal Comp - 124 - Superior

Perceptual Reasoning - 100 - average

WM - 88 - low average

PS - 97 - average

Full scale - 105 - average

 

Wiat - III

Early reading - 56

Math problem solving - 82

Word reading - 106

Numerical operation - 84

Oral expression - 131

Oral reading fluency - 80

Spelling - 81

Math fluency - add - 96

Math fluency - sub - 102

Mathematics - 82

Math fluency - 100

 

Speech therapist also did a CTOPP and diagnosed phonological awareness weaknesses.

 

Stefanie

Edited February 15, 2017 by Sdel

[PeterPan]

Options:

 

1-ABA team to help you get control

2-give up on control and totally roll with what she wants (and live with the consequences)

3-put her in school and let their team deal with the compliance issues

 

You probably don't have enough outside people filling out behavioral forms to get the feedback that would push it over. That's the reason she's not getting diagnosed, NOT that it's not happening. And I'll just go out on a limb and say your dh is really needing to pick up the clue phone here. So he's blaming you, denying the lack of social thinking, and... So he has social thinking deficits himself? Because honestly this degree of non-compliance is so astonishing I'm flabbergasted he's not concerned.

 

You take her to the school and you leave her there and say done. As the others said, you make the written request on day 1 for evals, saying you suspect whatever you suspect. They may blow you off and want to do RTI first, but technically, read up on the law, you can compel them to complete RTI *within* the 120 IEP process. Read the law. 

 

No matter what, you can have an IEP by fall, which is the best you can really make happen. They're about to go into their busy season, so a functional IEP by fall is your real goal. 

 

The other potential outcome there is you disagree with the results of the ps evals, dispute them legal, and compel them to pay for fresh, private independent evals. That gets you fresh evals. And by having her enrolled in the ps during all that you finally have enough people SEEING THE BEHAVIORS that they can DOCUMENT them and put them on questionaires to get the diagnosis.

 

Right now, nobody but you sees the behaviors so they can scapegoat you and say you don't give consequences, you don't follow through, you don't use structure, blah blah. Unless you get somebody else seeing the behaviors, to help get the diagnosis, to get the funding, to get the interventions, I don't see how you bust through this.

[Crimson Wife]

No one will diagnose anything. I'm convinced autism is part of it. 

 

The manipulating you against your DH doesn't sound like autism to me. Kids with ASD lack the social savvy to do that kind of manipulation. It sounds more like a personality disorder to me but I'm no PhD./PsyD. psychologist or M.D. psychiatrist, just a mom with an almost 2 decades' old B.A. in psych.

 

"Pathological Demand Avoidance" has been generating a lot of discussion in SN parenting circles. I'm not convinced that PDA is a legitimate condition and not just an excuse being made for kids with budding NPD or other personality disorders but you may want to look into it.

[Sdel]

OhE, I'm there, but it would be a serious marital issue to circumvent DH on this, which will cause it's own set of issues. He is convinced that public schools were the cause of significant issues with his three kids.

 

I have dumped this in his lap, let him get a real taste of her and get on board. As for how today went, she worked him for an hour and when he refused to play her song and dance and do the work for her she started all the histrionics and refusals to try. Blatant refusal. Just throwing out random numbers and screaming about how nothing works and it's too hard. Like 7 + 10 = 16 blatantly wrong answers, over and over again with no real effort to correct or work out the mistake. 10 am is when I handed out the worksheets and 5 pm is when they finally pronounced math done. My response great, now what about the other 3 subjects that need to be done?

 

What is happening now.....DH is in bed snoring while DD is goofing off. I am no longer teacher and shut myself in another room so I'm not dealing with it.

 

And for the record, she has a social skills teacher that does in home behavior modification training that has offered to fill out the questionnaires. So far the only one who has cared is the pedi. Neither of the psychs care. One never even asked me to fill one out before pronouncing she wouldn't diagnose autism.

 

Stefanie

[Sdel]

The manipulating you against your DH doesn't sound like autism to me. Kids with ASD lack the social savvy to do that kind of manipulation. It sounds more like a personality disorder to me but I'm no PhD./PsyD. psychologist or M.D. psychiatrist, just a mom with an almost 2 decades' old B.A. in psych.

 

"Pathological Demand Avoidance" has been generating a lot of discussion in SN parenting circles. I'm not convinced that PDA is a legitimate condition and not just an excuse being made for kids with budding NPD or other personality disorders but you may want to look into it.

Might be.....one of her older brothers would probably be diagnosed as a sociopath. I have enough experience with all of that to know it feels different with DD than NPD/sociopathy/personality disorder manipulation.

 

Stefanie

[EKS]

As for how today went, she worked him for an hour and when he refused to play her song and dance and do the work for her she started all the histrionics and refusals to try. Blatant refusal. Just throwing out random numbers and screaming about how nothing works and it's too hard. Like 7 + 10 = 16 blatantly wrong answers, over and over again with no real effort to correct or work out the mistake. 10 am is when I handed out the worksheets and 5 pm is when they finally pronounced math done. My response great, now what about the other 3 subjects that need to be done?

 

What was she doing during that hour?  

[Sdel]

Don't know exactly because I was gone. I think that hour was spent with DH working the first problem for her and then having her tell him how to work the second problem (and doing it perfectly I might add). After that he asked her to do the next two by herself and it all went down hill from there.

 

Stefanie

[shinyhappypeople]

These were done a little over a year ago.

 

WISC -IV

Verbal Comp - 124 - Superior

Perceptual Reasoning - 100 - average

WM - 88 - low average

PS - 97 - average

Full scale - 105 - average

 

Wiat - III

Early reading - 56

Math problem solving - 82

Word reading - 106

Numerical operation - 84

Oral expression - 131

Oral reading fluency - 80

Spelling - 81

Math fluency - add - 96

Math fluency - sub - 102

Mathematics - 82

Math fluency - 100

 

Speech therapist also did a CTOPP and diagnosed phonological awareness weaknesses.

 

Stefanie

 

First :grouphug: 

 

Next: Why is she still doing first grade math?  Have you tried bumping her up a level or two?  What happened?  

 

I ask because her math scores were in the average to low-average range, at least a year ago ("3rd grade"), so it seems like her actual skills should probably be above first grade level.

Edited February 16, 2017 by shinyhappypeople

[shinyhappypeople]

Another thought: what other subjects would she be doing if math weren't taking all day.  Is she more cooperative with those?  What happens when you do those first?

 

This is such a tough issue :( I'm so sorry you're struggling  :grouphug: 

[Innisfree]

Just saying, my dd with HFA can most definitely manipulate people. Her diagnosis was late, because she's a long way from classic autism. But it's been confirmed in two additional evaluations since the first diagnosis.

 

Eta the neuropsych noted that, unusually, dd does have theory of mind. She still got the ASD diagnosis.

 

 

In the op's situation, I'd really recommend ABA, if it is an option. The waiting lists are often long, and getting access without a diagnosis might be hard. But it has helped us enormously.

Edited February 16, 2017 by Innisfree

[Sdel]

First :grouphug:

 

Next: Why is she still doing first grade math? Have you tried bumping her up a level or two? What happened?

 

I ask because her math scores were in the average to low-average range, at least a year ago ("3rd grade"), so it seems like her actual skills should probably be above first grade level.

Honestly it really doesn't matter what I do. If she is expected to actually think about how to do anything she starts going bonkers. She will not/can not think through a problem logically. If she sees the problem 15 + 8 she will not think "do I know this fact? No, then can I use this strategy?" If she carries 15 things out to the car she loses it and starts screaming at me because she can't figure out how to open the door to with all the crap she brought out and believes it's my job to open the door for her or carry it all because it's too heavy.

 

She starts screaming it's too hard, she needs help, she can't do it, she doesn't know how and ramps up to screaming random equations and answers etc if you won't practically give her the answers. This is her reaction to THINKING, across all subjects and problems......screaming about how it's too hard.

 

Just dumping her into 3rd grade math is not going to fix anything. I've been arguing all along that she is CAPABLE, but unwilling. My issue is that it is NOT normal for a 9 year old spend from 10 am to 5 pm squawking and in tears to keep from doing math they have not only had repeated instruction in over the last three years but math they can do perfectly when they are in the mood to do so. As soon as she gets going well we try to move on she goes right back to 6+ hours of fighting and playing dumb about basic math fact types of problems. And today I only gave her dad the *review* portion of the work I had wanted her to do because I knew she'd pull this crap.

 

Stefanie

Edited February 16, 2017 by Sdel

[Sdel]

Another thought: what other subjects would she be doing if math weren't taking all day. Is she more cooperative with those? What happens when you do those first?

 

This is such a tough issue :( I'm so sorry you're struggling :grouphug:

I get 6 hours of fighting and playing dumb in that subject instead of math.

 

Stefanie

[PeterPan]

Ok, then a really different suggestion. Has she had a PT/OT eval where they really, really looked for retained reflexes? Because I'm being told that retained reflexes can underly that extreme reactivity. Since things are already going so ill, you'd have nothing to lose.

 

And/or get mood stabilizers to chill out some of that reactivity.

 

Is your dh the bio father of your dd? Just asking, because he's missing a lot. So he's very worried that putting her in ps, with her obvious disabilities, will create as bad an experience for her as it did for him as a person who maybe has the same disabilities? And does he have a clue that things have improved? Like maybe not as much as we'd WISH, but in the last 10+ years access to really nice quality, human social thinking instruction and intervention has increased. She might get an IEP. She might get a non-mainstreamed placement in a small class where people would be really focused on helping her. Did he have any of that? Like maybe he should tour the school, meet with them, actually work on an IEP and see what it would be like before concluding.

 

She's super bright btw. I'd be concerned if she weren't manipulating you and playing on your weaknesses and finding points where she can undermine you or weasel her way. It's the IQ.

[shinyhappypeople]

Honestly it really doesn't matter what I do. If she is expected to actually think about how to do anything she starts going bonkers. She will not/can not think through a problem logically. If she sees the problem 15 + 8 she will not think "do I know this fact? No, then can I use this strategy?" If she carries 15 things out to the car she loses it and starts screaming at me because she can't figure out how to open the door to with all the crap she brought out and believes it's my job to open the door for her or carry it all because it's too heavy.

 

She starts screaming it's too hard, she needs help, she can't do it, she doesn't know how and ramps up to screaming random equations and answers etc if you won't practically give her the answers. This is her reaction to THINKING, across all subjects and problems......screaming about how it's too hard.

 

Just dumping her into 3rd grade math is not going to fix anything. I've been arguing all along that she is CAPABLE, but unwilling. My issue is that it is NOT normal for a 9 year old spend from 10 am to 5 pm squawking and in tears to keep from doing math they have not only had repeated instruction in over the last three years but math they can do perfectly when they are in the mood to do so. As soon as she gets going well we try to move on she goes right back to 6+ hours of fighting and playing dumb about basic math fact types of problems. And today I only gave her dad the *review* portion of the work I had wanted her to do because I knew she'd pull this crap.

 

Stefanie

Oh, Stefanie, that sounds awful :( I dearly hope you can find a professional willing to take your concerns seriously because you're right.  This is nowhere near normal.   :grouphug: 

[Heathermomster]

The numbers look like like they could be NVLD. Maybe consider an OT eval with a possible SIPT eval for sensory.

[Plink]

I was going to say that this sounds like executive function issues.  Then I saw this:

 She will not/can not think through a problem logically. If she sees the problem 15 + 8 she will not think "do I know this fact? No, then can I use this strategy?" If she carries 15 things out to the car she loses it and starts screaming at me because she can't figure out how to open the door to with all the crap she brought out and believes it's my job to open the door for her or carry it all because it's too heavy.
 

 

And it sounds even more like it is a deficit in working memory, rather than just plain defiance. Has she seen a neuropsych?   

 

If it truly is an EF problem, she honestly may not be able to answer "simple" questions quickly.  Her brain may be getting overwhelmed by the process, pushing her into fight-or-flight mode, which makes her logical reasoning shut down.  From the outside it looks like defiance.  From the inside, it feels like an attack, and can lead to anxiety issues.  

 

EF is a weird monster and I hate fighting it every day.  ((hugs))  Take a look and see if this sounds like your girl: https://www.understood.org/en/learning-attention-issues/child-learning-disabilities/executive-functioning-issues

Edited February 16, 2017 by Plink

[Sdel]

Ok, then a really different suggestion. Has she had a PT/OT eval where they really, really looked for retained reflexes? Because I'm being told that retained reflexes can underly that extreme reactivity. Since things are already going so ill, you'd have nothing to lose.

 

And/or get mood stabilizers to chill out some of that reactivity.

 

Is your dh the bio father of your dd? Just asking, because he's missing a lot. So he's very worried that putting her in ps, with her obvious disabilities, will create as bad an experience for her as it did for him as a person who maybe has the same disabilities? And does he have a clue that things have improved? Like maybe not as much as we'd WISH, but in the last 10+ years access to really nice quality, human social thinking instruction and intervention has increased. She might get an IEP. She might get a non-mainstreamed placement in a small class where people would be really focused on helping her. Did he have any of that? Like maybe he should tour the school, meet with them, actually work on an IEP and see what it would be like before concluding.

 

She's super bright btw. I'd be concerned if she weren't manipulating you and playing on your weaknesses and finding points where she can undermine you or weasel her way. It's the IQ.

 

OhE, 

 

She had an OT eval at age 6.  She couldn't ride a bike (still can't), W sat (still does), still can't figure out how to arrange her body and will walk straight into every puddle/wall she comes across, and has been in gymnastics since she was 3 and still can't do even a simple cartwheel.  When she swims she can't breathe to the side because her whole body turns with her head.    She definitely has retained reflexes....

 

but OT blew her off because insurance wouldn't pay for anything.  She has more or less just lost her speech therapy because insurance won't pay for that unless she has an autism diagnosis.

 

Yes, DH is the biodad.  On his side of the family DD has two autistic cousins.   One of DD's older brothers is ADHD/Dyslexic/speculated ASD and her other brother is probably a flat out sociopath.  Oldest brother was adopted by my DH when has two, but he's a drug addict with a bat crazy wife and we are raising the grandkid.   Every kid has problems that DH partially blames the public schools for.  Oldest and the drugs.  We saw the public school change grades and erase absences from the middle one's records so they could graduate him and it wouldn't be a black mark on their records; completely undermining his parents attempts to deal with his attitude.  The youngest, hooked up with a psychopath (shes's currently in jail for murder) and caused us massive grief for his entire high school term.  We are zoned in the worst school in the district, our areas version of the "inner city" wards. As a white kid, she wouldn't get the time of day at this school anyway and just had neighbors pull their kid out of the school DD would go to for that reason.  Neither of us trust the public schools here.  I don't want her in the public school any more than he does.....I just can't do this any more.

 

Stefanie

Edited February 16, 2017 by Sdel

[Storygirl]

:grouphug:  :grouphug:  :grouphug:

 

Two of my four kids are boys, and I'm going to mention them both. They have different issues.

 

DS12 has NVLD and an alphabet soup of other issues. Yes, the gap between verbal and perceptual scores suggests a possible NVLD profile. Kids vary, but math is a common problem with NVLD, particularly understanding, remembering, generalizing, and applying concepts. Memorizing facts and learning early math skills usually comes easier. But then around third or fourth grade (or sometimes later, depending on the child), the math issues begin to rear their head.

 

You may know this, but NVLD can look like HFA. Sometimes kid with HFA can have NVLD. Sometimes it is NVLD and not autism but very close to it. Some psychs will not diagnose NVLD, because it is not in the DSM, but that does not mean it is not real. These kids are often on the border of the spectrum.

 

Now for the other son. DS11 was recently evaluated by a NP, who confirmed a constellation of weaknesses, including in working memory and fluid reasoning. But his scores were not low enough to give him a diagnosis. Except for anxiety. The reason I mention this son is that he shuts down, and won't think, and throws out obviously wrong answers, and refuses to answer questions, and argues, and melts down and cries, and seems stubborn, and clings to wrong ideas even when shown with logic what the right answer should be. At age 10, we enrolled him in school, because I just could not do it any more.

 

Your daughter sounds like my two sons mixed together, except she has a higher IQ. What you are seeing could be the conceptual disabilities of NVLD combined with anxiety and low working memory. Maybe trouble with fluid reasoning, though it doesn't look like they ran tests for that in your list.

 

I'm not saying that she is not manipulating. But maybe part of that is that she is using her verbal strengths to avoid her weaknesses, because she is stressed.

 

I was at my wit's end, so I'm sympathetic.

 

ETA: DS11 had a lot of low executive function scoring in his testing and observations, but of course not enough for a diagnosis. But EF is definitely part of his struggle. It is for both boys, actually. (DS12 has ADHD).

Edited February 16, 2017 by Storygirl

[Storygirl]

Stefanie, I just read your last post. I'm so sorry things have been so hard. And when you live where schools are bad, options can be hard to come by.

 

Your physical description sounds like dyspraxia (aka Developmental Coordination Disorder). Of course, DS12 has that, too!! I'm surprised he got the diagnosis, because his case is milder (though it has a significant impact) than what others on the LC board have described, even though their kids didn't get the diagnosis.

 

Anyway, DCD is often comorbid with NVLD. NVLD is at least in part a visual spatial disability and affects coordination.

Edited February 16, 2017 by Storygirl

[Sdel]

:grouphug:  :grouphug:  :grouphug:

 

Two of my four kids are boys, and I'm going to mention them both. They have different issues.

 

DS12 has NVLD and an alphabet soup of other issues. Yes, the gap between verbal and perceptual scores suggests a possible NVLD profile. Kids vary, but math is a common problem with NVLD, particularly understanding, remembering, generalizing, and applying concepts. Memorizing facts and learning early math skills usually comes easier. But then around third or fourth grade (or sometimes later, depending on the child), the math issues begin to rear their head.

 

 

 

Storygirl,

 

In the past I have given her a list of 5 subtraction problems (2 digit - 1 digit).   She did the first 3 perfectly, no tears, no struggle, boom, boom, boom through the process of breaking everything apart, regrouping, rewriting the problem and solution.  Bam.....problem 4 she suddenly comes unglued, screaming, throwing out random numbers, she "doesn't remember the process", throwing pencils and ripping up her paper, etc.  and then after a 2 hour fit she does the last two perfectly.  Its like between problems three and four she just decided she didn't want to do it anymore and then when she realized she wasn't getting out of it she just picked right back up where she left off.  

 

Stefanie 

[Heathermomster]

These were done a little over a year ago.

 

WISC -IV

Verbal Comp - 124 - Superior

Perceptual Reasoning - 100 - average

WM - 88 - low average

PS - 97 - average

Full scale - 105 - average

 

Wiat - III

Early reading - 56

Math problem solving - 82

Word reading - 106

Numerical operation - 84

Oral expression - 131

Oral reading fluency - 80

Spelling - 81

Math fluency - add - 96

Math fluency - sub - 102

Mathematics - 82

Math fluency - 100

 

Speech therapist also did a CTOPP and diagnosed phonological awareness weaknesses.

 

Stefanie

OP, your child may not recall a math process after 3 problems. When there is a huge IQ subscore descrepancy, nps will sometimes provide a GAI which is the IQ calculation omitting the wm and processing speed scores. The point spread for the verbal comp and wm is 36 points, which is over 2 std deviations. That difference is significant and must be taken into account when teaching.

 

WM is like a dashboard. Once the dashboard is full, you can't place anything else on it. Your DD is running with a small dashboard. Any anxiety combined with the fight or flight response will shut a person's brain down and place them in survival mode. I can't tell whether this is a JAWM or whether you actually want ideas to manage this.

 

As far as motor issues, both my children worked with a ped PT. We started with an OT, but she did not give me a ton of confidence. The ped PT experience was great because she was very encouraging and my DD loved working with her.

 

I noticed that your DD rides a new pony. Is that a therapy animal or pet?

Edited February 16, 2017 by Heathermomster

[Lecka]

To me it sounds like your child shut down between problems 3 and 4.

 

That doesn't mean it is intentional.

 

If you see things like "well she can do 3 and then shuts down" you can do things like have her two do and then take a little break.

 

That is not proof she could do all 5 if she wanted.

[PeterPan]

If your state has charter schools or vouchers, you could look into that. Can you move? In our area 60% of the children live below the poverty level (actually that's the next town over, I've heard higher of ours) but it's not inner city. And while they might be underfunded, they actually do make a reasonable attempt at intervening. It's easier to get interventions in *our* school than in the ritzy school. And I know that for a fact from talking with people. So you might not have to move to an $$$ area to get a reasonable IEP and get services. It might be just moving to a place you can afford out of the big city would get that.

 

If his mother had homeschooled him and his siblings, he'd be blaming homeschooling. It's it's to blame the mother, blame homeschooling, blame the ps, than to admit what's REALLY going on.

 

There are kids that float like this. I've known people who didn't move their NVLD label over to autism till later, much later. Like nothing is set in stone. Your fight is to get interventions, and it sounds like moving would maybe help. It could only go UP, mercy. 

 

Lecka is absolutely right on this. You're seeing her behaviors very b&w, like either she can or she can't, either she will or she won't. The IEP team would do what Lecka's saying. That's how our behaviorist works, and I don't get why yours isn't helping you with this. They would say ok, she can do 3 before she needs a break to stay regulated. They would actually make data on that and bring supports and get consistent what the dc CAN do and stay regulated for. And then they would slowly increase that.

 

When we started, my ds needed a motivator or a break after every activity, like every 5 minutes. Now, he can work maybe 15-20! They worked him up slowly and they take data. If he's having a hard day and needs more support, we back that up big time. We bring out whatever level of support is necessary to keep the momentum positive even as he's having a hard time. And my ds will have those hard days! He had one like that this week, and I wrote the behaviorist and gave her a heads-up, so the next worker would know.

 

I think you can't go wrong with regulation breaks (before the meltdown, before the behaviors and freezing). If you do some pre-emptive breaks, what happens? Like hey, we're going to do these three problems, then we'll go play a round of pingpong (or toss or barbies or whatever she's into) and then we'll come back and do 3 more. That kind of thing. Stepping up the pace, positive momentum. Maybe less work, but winning on the positive momentum. Our people will sacrifice quantity of work for positive momentum, because they know that momentum puts them in a better place when they start the NEXT session.

 

Is your behaviorist currently helping you? Who is paying that? Does she bring in workers or do consultative?

[PeterPan]

Btw, I'm a huge fan of gymnastics, but are you observing there to see her behaviors? If the skills are that out of reach, she may need to go into an adapted gymnastics class. She doesn't sound ready for it. Yes, she has glaring retained primitive reflexes. It's the NUMBER ONE thing you could be working on right now. The exercises might be very calming for her. They are for my ds. Look for the exercises on youtube. 

 

Anyways, if the gymnastics is that out of reach, she is probably having behaviors, reinforcing bad habits. She needs a placement where they can meet her where she is. Our place does. My ds isn't the fastest learner with motor planning either and everything takes longer. He needs about 4X what everyone else does to learn the same tasks. Of course what I did was sign him up for 4X more classes than anyone else, lol. And I observed every single session to work on the behaviors I saw.

Edited February 16, 2017 by OhElizabeth

[Storygirl]

I agree with the others. We have found that once the anxiety kicks in, DS can't think any more, even if he is perfectly able to do the work otherwise. I used to try to push through, and it would backfire. And I couldn't understand what was happening or why he would not cooperate, so I would push or encourage more.

 

He does the same thing at time at school, by the way. He holds it together more at school, but he does still get stuck and shut down while he is there. As we work out what to do to help him, taking breaks is definitely on the list. He does not like to take breaks and will resist, so a big part of what we are facing is teaching him how to manage his own anxiety and be willing to help himself.

 

If I were you, I would probably see the suggestions to take breaks and think that that is a minor solution that won't work. And I would think, "we've tried that already. In fact, we take too many breaks." But the kind of breaks being mentioned are planned and have a targeted purpose.

 

I'm not sure I've seen it come up in this thread, but can you get private psychological counseling? You may need MORE than counseling, but it is a place to start and may be covered by insurance, depending on your plan.

 

Your school may be poor; many are. Even so, enrolling her may be helpful, because it will give you a break and allow others to work with her. In some states, gettting an IEP opens doors. For example, our state (and some others) has a scholarship program for kids with IEPs who are NOT enrolled in public school. I had no idea this existed for a long time. If you look for resources in your state or community, you may find some help that you didn't know was out there. Even if she doesn't stay in school for the long term, enrolling her now may help you get connected with support.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Storygirl]

Also, I'm sorry that this causes strife between you and your husband. It's good that he tried to work with her and saw how it can turn. Is he open to having a conversation about YOU and how this is impacting YOU? It's not reasonable for him to see that there is a problem and say that you have to bear the burden alone. If you need to give up, the solution can be about what is best for YOU.

 

As moms, we think that we need to put the kids' needs first. And we do! But when we are so stretched and hurting ourselves that we can't meet the needs of our kids, it does no good for things to continue in the same way.

 

Your husband is resistant to the idea of school for HER, but perhaps he would consider it if he understood how it would help YOU.

 

 

[Sdel]

OhE, I've always been completely on my own.

 

The WISC scores were done by someone in another city and didn't involve anything additional, just a report and being told to go get meds. PT/OT doesn't happen. She was evaled at 6 and they didn't even give me a written eval report. They basically said insurance won't pay, she was "normal" but If I was still wanting something I can google heavy work and to keep her in sports. We don't have behaviorist, psychologist, counselor or anything else. Once medical flex runs out in a few weeks we won't even have speech therapy. There is no adapted gymnastics or sports available.

 

Nothing, completely 100% on our own because no one will give us the time of day because insurance won't pay without an autism label. And it doesn't seem like anyone is willing to give me an autism label so I can get what my DD needs.

 

Moving is not an option. The public school, anywhere, IS NOT an option, unless I want an excuse to get divorced. None of the issues have to do with my DH and some ancient public school history. All of our issues with public school are from DH's son's.....within DD's lifetime.

 

It really doesn't matter what you think about the subject of my DH, DD, and public school, but I'm not willing to making a divorce inducing stand on it right now. I'll take other considersations but they can not involve the public school system.

 

Stefanie