Is classical conversations a cult..or product..or..

[Gregkar]

Really what exactly is it?  People peddle it like they are selling Avon. 

 

I might endure flack for this post, but there ya have it.  I have always wanted to know this.

 

It is EXACTLY like Avon Multi-Level-Marketting- You've hit the nail on the head.

[Gregkar]

 

 

Then there's CC corporate. Maybe families don't see much of CC corporate because the wonderful directors at their campuses shield them, in a way, or as much as they can, from any aggressive sales tactics and tight legal restrictions of CC corp.

 

In fact, there isn't much info on CC corporate available online, but one gets a sense of an almost cultish control that corporate seems to wield, and the methods they use to establish and wield that control, by the verbiage in their contracts and by watching their reaction to blog posts or other web posts that are at all critical of CC. Here's one thread that doesn't seem to have been quashed, yet. The OP asks for info on CC corp's business/financial structure, apparently a touchy topic. It's interesting to see what defenses come out. (Scroll down to the 2-18, 3:36 pm, post for an apparent comment from corporate.)  Maybe this is why there's a sense that CC is a cult.

 

 

Out of curiosity..... Are there online databases you can search for legal actions against a company or against an officer of a company?  Or is that sort of info inaccessible if the company is privately held?  (PM if that's easier.)

Here's a link snapshot of their gross financials:  $4.2 million AGI in 2016.

 

 

http://www.buzzfile.com/business/Classical-Conversations,-Incorporated-910-673-0100

 

Dunn & Bradstreet or ChoicePoint would have better info.

 

Remember that Gross is NOT the same as the bottom line, but that there was enough bottom line in 2010 for Leigh Bortin to pay out a cool million in taxes- in her OWN words- link below:

 

http://money.cnn.com/2011/09/27/pf/taxes/warren_buffett_tax_millionaires/index.htm

 

As for the history of litigation, Lexus/Nexus would be the place to start. Your local law library may grant free access to this service- or not. Unless it's REALLY big, you won't find it just scanning the internet.

 

But as I've said elsewhere, I'm not convinced that I have seen evidence of some overarching evil scheme.

 

 

Edited July 12, 2017 by Gregkar

[Gregkar]

:iagree: :iagree:

 

I think when CC came out, it met a real need/desire for a "community" for many, both students and moms.  Better models are already starting to sprout up. MP's Cottage Schools, CAP's Schole communities, etc., may meet the community desire but also have better academics and better instructors.

 

When we did Foundations and Essentials, my boys LOVED the peer aspect. It was definitely something we did not get on our own at home nor in other peer activities like park days.  I'm an introvert, so socializing w/ other moms wasn't a driving factor for me, but it is for many more extroverted moms.

In hindsight, I see some real advantages to group learning, for SOME subjects and assuming the children in the group are at the same level, interested in the same subject matter. I would not dumb down just for social interaction.  We used CC purely as a supplement, an extracurricular.  It was something fun for the kids to do one day a week.

 

CC corporate made it easy to start a campus. They provided the infrastructure & the PR. It was plug-and-play simple. 

I think people try it and love it at the beginning, but then find that it's not an academic route they want to follow. They grow disenchanted with it as they discover that the corporate restrictions on it (can't hire the best tutors, tutors have to teach all subjects for their level even if they have no interest in one or two, tutors have to have kids in the program so every campus loses its best/most experienced tutors right when they have the most time and experience to tutor!...)   The CC restrictions benefit corporate's bottom line, but they hobble the local communities. At some point, the benefits of ease of set-up and ready-made PR will be outweighed by weak academics, lock-step academics, and inability to bring in the best teachers. I think it's reaching this point and, for this reason, other types of communities are popping up. It remains to be seen how successful those will be.

 

All true above, but let us not forget that CC provides an economically disruptive and competitive force to the education economic and social markets, and this is a GOOD thing. Let us remember not to make the Perfect the Enemy of the Good. Clearly, CC has failed to invent the perfect mouse trap and if even a tenth of the negative reviews are true, they are incapable of remediation.

 

That said, this leaves the market WIDE OPEN to new entrants. New entrants have to solve the economic market problem and be a successful bridge to post-secondary education.

 

So this brings us back to: Is it possible to bring a homeschool in-a-box product to market, have it affordable, have it succeed, and have it work in communities so that all the angles are covered and specialized cooperation results in superior education? Or is the preceding question predicated upon a Socialist Utopian Scheme that can never be anything more than Dystopian?

 

We have ONE best opportunity to educate our kids and it is essential that we not miscarry that opportunity. If we fail, how then are we any better off than we would be sending them to Los Angeles Unified School District?

 

 

[Penelope]

Right now, I don't think a homeschool-in-a-box product is an easy feat for high school. And perhaps that is why CC has not been able to offer one that is consistently high quality.

 

I wonder why in-a-box is even desirable for this age. If you want a box taught by other untrained parents, why homeschool high school at all?

 

A hybrid or cottage school with teachers who know their subjects seems smarter to me if parents want things laid out for them with outside teachers, while still offering some of the flexibility of homeschooling.

And these already exist and have existed for a lot longer than CC.

 

Highlands Latin School/Memoria Press offers support for starting a cottage school in your local area, and from what I have seen of MP products, offers a much richer education that has a much deeper tradition and level of thought and experience behind it than CC, IMO.

There may be other organizations that do this as well.

Edited July 13, 2017 by Penelope

[Gregkar]

How do you determine a company's net worth?

 

Assets minus Liabilities equals Net Worth

[Gregkar]

Right now, I don't think a homeschool-in-a-box product is an easy feat for high school. And perhaps that is why CC has not been able to offer one that is consistently high quality.

 

I wonder why in-a-box is even desirable for this age. If you want a box taught by other untrained parents, why homeschool high school at all?

 

 

Homeschool In-a-Box SELLS. CC's growth is the proof of that. And clearly this is adequate for Elementary school levels.

 

But is it an adequate bridge to top colleges? This REALLY matters a LOT for those potential Phi Beta Kappa (or equivalent) level students. This also REALLY matters for students headed to grad school. Imagine your child having to attend medical school in the Caribbean, say, because their pre-med program program was at XYZ State. And suppose this occurred because your student couldn't get admitted to Cal, University of Spoiled Children, UCLA, etc. pre-med? Suppose the difference in education caused a 5 percentile shift in the student's MCAT score? And suppose, in turn, that this whole chain of events started because some uptight admissions counselor stuck his/her nose up in the air at the prospect of a "Homeschool" high school transcript.

 

When you consider the opportunity costs, lost earning potential, and so on, it quickly becomes obvious why failure isn't an option for at least SOME students. After all, are not most of us not here because we elected to FIRE the Public School system? Imagine the irony of our children getting a stellar HOMESCHOOL education only to have the door slammed in their faces at the post-secondary or graduate level. Imagine the irony of some Public School student with half their mental faculties and breadth of education taking YOUR child's seat at Harvard?

 

That would the WORST. That would be like getting scalded with boiling oil.

 

Maybe I'm too anxious and uptight. Maybe I'm worried without good cause.... But I do not wish to blithely make mistaken decisions on my child's behalf which will hurt him later in life.

 

I don't think that it's unreasonable to be cautious.

 

 

Edited July 13, 2017 by Gregkar

[Penelope]

Gregkar, I am not sure what you are are saying.

 

Homeschoolers who prepare their children well have a pretty good track record of getting into good colleges for at least a couple of decades now. I don't know that we can say the same about CC or if there are any available stats on that. How many kids are even "graduating" high school from CC after four or more years of the program?

 

It seems like you are worried about homeschool transcripts for college admission vs. CC, with the idea that CC or another program like it would "look better". But CC does not provide an accredited transcript. Their transcript, from what I understand, will be evaluated the same way a regular homeschool transcript would, besides which, CC does not cover all the electives one would also have in high school. It seems to me that when a college sees a CC transcript, they are seeing homeschool but with ALL of the academics done co-op style. I actually feel more confident of success for my kids with a regular homeschool transcript with a mix of outside and home classes and a focus on strong academics in their areas of interest, than with one from CC.

 

 

Nothing comes for free. Homeschooling high school requires an investment of significant time, energy, and usually money, more or less depending on various circumstances. If you want excellent academics without any DIY element and don't like your ps district, it will cost you, and at some tipping point, if you want cookie-cutter, hands-off, and high standards, you might be looking at private school. I truly think the university model or cottage schools might be the best in-between, but, like any private school or CC or anything else, a lot depends on the people involved.

Edited July 13, 2017 by Penelope

[YodaGirl]

CC grads are actually pretty successful.

 

Here are some numbers from CC's 2016 catalog:

 

Test Scores (Challenge vs Top State Average vs National Average):

ACT Reading

26.3 vs 24.5 vs 21.3

ACT Science

23.8 vs 23.6 vs 20.8

ACT Math

22.9 vs 24.6 vs 20.9

ACT English

26.8 vs 24.2 vs 20.3

 

SAT Reading

630 vs 612 vs 497

SAT Writing

577 vs 587 vs 487

SAT Math

569 vs 620 vs 513

 

93% of CC grade were accepted by all of the schools to which they applied (avg # of applications = 3.2). The most common acceptance rate was 100%.

 

I would argue that CC is ultimately not a box-type program, although I will concede that there are some aspects that point to it being just that. The program does become more like an all-in-one as it progresses.

 

At the elementary level, as it is designed, families must add in their own math and language arts programs. Even so, most families do additional science which oftentimes does not align with CC-specific material. We include our own social studies program to fulfill state requirements.

 

Essentials can be added for grades 4-6. That covers grammar & writing, but you're still on your own for reading. I'll concede that some literature choices may be made to align with the current history topic, but it's not necessary.

 

At Challenge level, it really is more all-in-one, but you have the option of adding or omitting whatever you want. Don't like Saxon? Do something else. Don't approve of the box being read (we had a family who didn't approve of The Magician's Nephew)? Dont assign it for your child.

 

Our community, from foundations up, continually reminds parents that tutors are NOT the teachers. Parents are, and as such, they are free to add, omit, or change whatever they want.

 

I believe that Challenge 3 & 4 allows families to pick, choose, and pay for only the subjects they want to take. At least that's my understanding from our Challenge A director. We're no where near Challenge 3 level, yet.

 

So, yeah, I guess it has a psuedo-appearance of a box program, but ultimately it's not.

 

It's also not right for everyone, and not all communities are created equally.

Edited July 13, 2017 by YodaGirl

[Renai]

CC grade are actually pretty successful.

 

Here are some numbers from CC's 2016 catalog:

 

Test Scores (Challenge vs Top State Average vs National Average):

ACT Reading

26.3 vs 24.5 vs 21.3

ACT Science

23.8 vs 23.6 vs 20.8

ACT Math

22.9 vs 24.6 vs 20.9

ACT English

26.8 vs 24.2 vs 20.3

 

SAT Reading

630 vs 612 vs 497

SAT Writing

577 vs 587 vs 487

SAT Math

569 vs 620 vs 513

 

 

These aren't CC grades though. They are standardized test scores, and pretty much on par with other homeschool test scores from a self-selected group.

[8filltheheart]

Homeschool In-a-Box SELLS. CC's growth is the proof of that. And clearly this is adequate for Elementary school levels.

 

But is it an adequate bridge to top colleges? This REALLY matters a LOT for those potential Phi Beta Kappa (or equivalent) level students. This also REALLY matters for students headed to grad school. Imagine your child having to attend medical school in the Caribbean, say, because their pre-med program program was at XYZ State. And suppose this occurred because your student couldn't get admitted to Cal, University of Spoiled Children, UCLA, etc. pre-med? Suppose the difference in education caused a 5 percentile shift in the student's MCAT score? And suppose, in turn, that this whole chain of events started because some uptight admissions counselor stuck his/her nose up in the air at the prospect of a "Homeschool" high school transcript.

 

When you consider the opportunity costs, lost earning potential, and so on, it quickly becomes obvious why failure isn't an option for at least SOME students. After all, are not most of us not here because we elected to FIRE the Public School system? Imagine the irony of our children getting a stellar HOMESCHOOL education only to have the door slammed in their faces at the post-secondary or graduate level. Imagine the irony of some Public School student with half their mental faculties and breadth of education taking YOUR child's seat at Harvard?

 

That would the WORST. That would be like getting scalded with boiling oil.

 

Maybe I'm too anxious and uptight. Maybe I'm worried without good cause.... But I do not wish to blithely make mistaken decisions on my child's behalf which will hurt him later in life.

 

I don't think that it's unreasonable to be cautious.

 

 

 

I am also not sure what your post is supposed to be saying. 

 

Homeschool transcripts are accepted at schools across the country, including HYPSM.  Check out the college forum here on the WTM and see where this yr's grads were accepted.  They were accepted to tippy top schools, state flagships, LACs, etc.  Several kids were awarded top scholarships at several schools (Duke, BU, ND, Vanderbilt, OSU, USC, Fordham, etc).  My dd was awarded several full-tuition to full-ride scholarships with her completely done at home with me coursework (with the exception of Russian (4 yrs), French (2 yrs), and DE stats (spring semester of 12th grade).  Her older brother is attending on full scholarship and will be applying to grad school this fall.  Zero qualms about his homeschool transcript for high school.  He has a 4.0 GPA.  He scored a 960 on the physics GRE. He has participated in REUs at Cornell and Duke.  

 

What we do at home far surpasses anything even remotely offered at CC.   My kids are far beyond CC level coursework in high school. Universities have accepted my printed on my home computer transcript without issue.  

 

FWIW, while homeschool in a box may sell, that doesn't mean that what sells has additional value.  It certainly doesn't mean it is superior. (There are plenty of popular homeschooling providers that are popular that I won't use b/c I personally think the products are inferior. ;) ) If you go back several pages to the post made by SWB, you will see that when they considered seeking accreditation for WTM Academy, they found out that online accredited transcripts were still treated the same as homeschool transcripts.  They are reviewed by the same non-traditional school adcom as my printed out at home transcript.

 

 

CC grade are actually pretty successful.

 

Here are some numbers from CC's 2016 catalog:

 

Test Scores (Challenge vs Top State Average vs National Average):

ACT Reading

26.3 vs 24.5 vs 21.3

ACT Science

23.8 vs 23.6 vs 20.8

ACT Math

22.9 vs 24.6 vs 20.9

ACT English

26.8 vs 24.2 vs 20.3

 

SAT Reading

630 vs 612 vs 497

SAT Writing

577 vs 587 vs 487

SAT Math

569 vs 620 vs 513

 

93% of CC grads were accepted by all of the schools to which they applied (avg # of applications = 3.2). The most common acceptance rate was 100%....

 

Our community, from foundations up, continually reminds parents that tutors are NOT the teachers......

 

 

I personally have a difficult time reconciling the 2 bolded positions. If CC does not provide accredited transcripts and CC tutors are not the teachers, then how are the kids are CC grads.  It seems illogical to claim both as true.

Edited July 13, 2017 by 8FillTheHeart

[YodaGirl]

These aren't CC grades though. They are standardized test scores, and pretty much on par with other homeschool test scores from a self-selected group.

Right. A pp had questioned how successful the program actually is. The test scores aren't supposed to indicate that CC is the best option. It's to show that CC students are able to perform successfully on the ACT and SAT and are well-prepared for college.

I personally have a difficult time reconciling the 2 bolded positions. If CC does not provide accredited transcripts and CC tutors are not the teachers, then how are the kids are CC grads. It seems illogical to claim both as true.

I'm not sure why it's difficult to reconcile the two. The word "graduate" just means that they've completed the program. It's no different than the police department's D.A.R.E. program holding "graduations" for 5th graders completing that program. It's not a graded program; it's just enrichment. Yet, there's still a graduation, and students are called D.A.R.E. graduates.

[Renai]

CC grade are actually pretty successful.

 

Here are some numbers from CC's 2016 catalog:

 

 

Right. A pp had questioned how successful the program actually is. The test scores aren't supposed to indicate that CC is the best option. It's to show that CC students are able to perform successfully on the ACT and SAT and are well-prepared for college.m; it's just enrichment. Yet, there's still a graduation, and students are called D.A.R.E. graduates.

 

It looked like you said "CC Grades." I'm now realizing it was probably a typo for "grads."

[YodaGirl]

I'm not saying (and no one really should be saying) that CC is the best program out there for everyone. It is a rigorous program. Students have excelled on AP tests and standardized tests. They have been accepted into prestigious universities. That doesn't mean CC is the most rigorous program out there. I'm sure some are more difficult. I'm sure some are more simplistic. Labeling one program good doesn't automatically label another program bad.

 

I'm not sure we'll do CC in high school. There are tons of good options out there. Who knows what will be right for us then?

[YodaGirl]

It looked like you said "CC Grades." I'm now realizing it was probably a typo for "grads."

Sorry. Yes, that was a typo. That's what I get for trying to type up long posts on my phone. 🙄

Edited July 13, 2017 by YodaGirl

[8filltheheart]

I'm not sure why it's difficult to reconcile the two. The word "graduate" just means that they've completed the program. It's no different than the police department's D.A.R.E. program holding "graduations" for 5th graders completing that program. It's not a graded program; it's just enrichment. Yet, there's still a graduation, and students are called D.A.R.E. graduates.

 

Not comparable.  We are talking about high school students.  My kids have DEed at the local universities.  I don't call them graduates of those universities just b/c they took courses there (and with real teachers ;) ).  Graduates are those who earn degrees from the institution.

 

When you talk about high school students being graduates and where they were accepted into college, the implication is that is where they went to school and earned their high school diploma.  DARE graduates don't apply to college and then say that they are graduates of DARE and were accepted to colleges x,y, and z.  

[YodaGirl]

Not comparable. We are talking about high school students. My kids have DEed at the local universities. I don't call them graduates of those universities just b/c they took courses there (and with real teachers ;) ). Graduates are those who earn degrees from the institution.

 

When you talk about high school students being graduates and where they were accepted into college, the implication is that is where they went to school and earned their high school diploma. DARE graduates don't apply to college and then say that they are graduates of DARE and were accepted to colleges x,y, and z.

They are home school who have graduated high school.

 

They are also graduates of a program (CC), just as kids who gave completed the DARE program are DARE graduates. By definition, "graduate" just means that coursework or a program has been completed. While the term generally refers to someone who has received a degree or diploma, that is not always the case.

 

I don't know of any CC graduate in this area who lists themselves as a CC graduate on a transcript. He or she is a graduate of his or her own homeschool, which is considered a private school in this state. CC has nothing to do with issuing a diploma, nor should it be listed on a diploma or transcript. The fact that they've graduated from the program should mean nothing to colleges.

 

My point is that students who do complete the coursework recommended by CC have traditionally performed well on standardized tests and have been accepted into college without issue.

[The Governess]

Regarding the scores, I would also keep in mind that many students supplement CC. Most high school CC students I know take DE or other outside classes in addition to (or to replace) what CC offers. Really, at the campuses I know of, most juniors and seniors are only taking half of the Challenge subjects offered.

[YodaGirl]

Regarding the scores, I would also keep in mind that many students supplement CC. Most high school CC students I know take DE or other outside classes in addition to (or to replace) what CC offers. Really, at the campuses I know of, most juniors and seniors are only taking half of the Challenge subjects offered.

That's a good point.

 

I do think that it is still relevant in that students were capable of handling DE.

 

Honestly, we use CC as more of a supplement than anything. Essentials is our grammar & writing program, though. We're still in Foundations, and I just don't feel that it's enough. Maybe I would if we just spent the rest of the time reading books and digging deeper, but we don't. I prefer something a bit more rigorous than that. Besides, Foundations would only give us 24 out of 36 weeks. We'd have to do something else.

 

Most parents at our community struggle with what to add. With the exception of a few families who tend to lean more towards unschoolers, I think everyone at our community supplements.

[Omma]

I believe that Challenge 3 & 4 allows families to pick, choose, and pay for only the subjects they want to take. At least that's my understanding from our Challenge A director. We're no where near Challenge 3 level, yet.

 

 

Only if they sign up for at least 4 of the 6 classes can they pick and choose between Challenge 3 subjects.  I know because we tried to just sign up for one class and this is what we were told.  The minimum is 4.

 

[YodaGirl]

Only if they sign up for at least 4 of the 6 classes can they pick and choose between Challenge 3 subjects. I know because we tried to just sign up for one class and this is what we were told. The minimum is 4.

 

Thanks. I knew it was slightly different, but we don't have 3 & 4 on our campus, yet.

[luuknam]

Homeschool In-a-Box SELLS. CC's growth is the proof of that. And clearly this is adequate for Elementary school levels.

 

But is it an adequate bridge to top colleges? This REALLY matters a LOT for those potential Phi Beta Kappa (or equivalent) level students. This also REALLY matters for students headed to grad school. Imagine your child having to attend medical school in the Caribbean, say, because their pre-med program program was at XYZ State. And suppose this occurred because your student couldn't get admitted to Cal, University of Spoiled Children, UCLA, etc. pre-med? Suppose the difference in education caused a 5 percentile shift in the student's MCAT score? 

 

I'm not sure what the problem is with doing med school in the Caribbean. If my kids want to go to med school, I'd probably send them to NL, where it's a 6 year program immediately following high school (no 4 years of undergrad first!). Either way, they'd still become doctors in the end, which is the entire point. The problem would be if they wanted to become doctors and aren't capable of getting into any medical school anywhere. 

 

Also, there are people from XYZ State who get into med schools in the US. When my wife was at A&M Corpus Christi (definitely a low-caliber school that I would not want to send my kids to, unless they maybe wanted to major in marine biology, which is iiuc the only degree program that they have that's decent), one of her classmates was accepted into Harvard medical school. 

 

Your MCAT scores are (I assume) most affected by how hard/much/long you study for them. You can study as much as you want at any university. 

 

I'm not saying (and no one really should be saying) that CC is the best program out there for everyone. It is a rigorous program. Students have excelled on AP tests and standardized tests.

 

 

Based on the stats you posted, they did worse than the average student taking the SAT/ACT in the best state in writing and in math. The average student taking the SAT/ACT is not well-prepared for college. If you adjust for socio-economic status, CC grads are probably quite average, or maybe even worse than average, since odds are that the parents of CC students as a group are better off than the average American, the kids of wealthier/more educated people tend to score better on standardized tests than the kids of average people. So, no, as a group they don't 'excel' on standardized tests.

 

ETA: to be clear, I'm not saying that the parents of CC students are, on average, rich or highly educated or anything. Just that they're probably above the 50th percentile for both those measures. 

Edited July 14, 2017 by luuknam

[YodaGirl]

I'm not sure what the problem is with doing med school in the Caribbean. If my kids want to go to med school, I'd probably send them to NL, where it's a 6 year program immediately following high school (no 4 years of undergrad first!). Either way, they'd still become doctors in the end, which is the entire point. The problem would be if they wanted to become doctors and aren't capable of getting into any medical school anywhere. 

 

Also, there are people from XYZ State who get into med schools in the US. When my wife was at A&M Corpus Christi (definitely a low-caliber school that I would not want to send my kids to, unless they maybe wanted to major in marine biology, which is iiuc the only degree program that they have that's decent), one of her classmates was accepted into Harvard medical school. 

 

Your MCAT scores are (I assume) most affected by how hard/much/long you study for them. You can study as much as you want at any university. 

 

 

 

Based on the stats you posted, they did worse than the average student taking the SAT/ACT in the best state in writing and in math. The average student taking the SAT/ACT is not well-prepared for college. If you adjust for socio-economic status, CC grads are probably quite average, or maybe even worse than average, since odds are that the parents of CC students as a group are better off than the average American, the kids of wealthier/more educated people tend to score better on standardized tests than the kids of average people. So, no, as a group they don't 'excel' on standardized tests.

 

ETA: to be clear, I'm not saying that the parents of CC students are, on average, rich or highly educated or anything. Just that they're probably above the 50th percentile for both those measures. 

 

I know of one or two doctors in our area who have sent their children to foreign countries for med school.  The only reason was that they weren't accepted into any of the med schools in the US.  If the only schools they can gain admittance to are foreign schools, it makes me question their quality.

 

Here are the stats that I previously posted: 

 

ACT Reading

26.3 vs 24.5 vs 21.3 

ACT Science

23.8 vs 23.6 vs 20.8

ACT Math

22.9 vs 24.6 vs 20.9

ACT English

26.8 vs 24.2 vs 20.3

 

SAT Reading

630 vs 612 vs 497

SAT Writing

577 vs 587 vs 487

SAT Math

569 vs 620 vs 513

 

For reference, scores are listed CC student scores first, top state average second, & national average last.  

 

They out-performed the national average every time.  They out-performed the top state 4 out of 7 times.  The only glaring difference is math.  Considering the fact that Saxon is what is recommended, I feel it's safe to assume that most use Saxon.  If Saxon is the issue, that can be easily remedied since students are not required to use it.  We plan to begin AoPS next year.

 

I think it's highly inaccurate to suggest that CC students might actually be performing below average given that all evidence suggests something completely different.  You don't have to like CC.  You may even think that it's a crappy all-in-one program.  When CC students out-perform the top state over 50% of the time, it's a fallacy to continue to suggest that their performance is average and probably even below-average.

[Mrs Twain]

I'm not sure what the problem is with doing med school in the Caribbean. If my kids want to go to med school, I'd probably send them to NL, where it's a 6 year program immediately following high school (no 4 years of undergrad first!). Either way, they'd still become doctors in the end, which is the entire point. The problem would be if they wanted to become doctors and aren't capable of getting into any medical school anywhere.

 

Also, there are people from XYZ State who get into med schools in the US. When my wife was at A&M Corpus Christi (definitely a low-caliber school that I would not want to send my kids to, unless they maybe wanted to major in marine biology, which is iiuc the only degree program that they have that's decent), one of her classmates was accepted into Harvard medical school.

 

Your MCAT scores are (I assume) most affected by how hard/much/long you study for them. You can study as much as you want at any university.

 

 

 

Based on the stats you posted, they did worse than the average student taking the SAT/ACT in the best state in writing and in math. The average student taking the SAT/ACT is not well-prepared for college. If you adjust for socio-economic status, CC grads are probably quite average, or maybe even worse than average, since odds are that the parents of CC students as a group are better off than the average American, the kids of wealthier/more educated people tend to score better on standardized tests than the kids of average people. So, no, as a group they don't 'excel' on standardized tests.

 

ETA: to be clear, I'm not saying that the parents of CC students are, on average, rich or highly educated or anything. Just that they're probably above the 50th percentile for both those measures.

Re: medical school in the Caribbean

 

The students who go to medical school in the Caribbean do so because they didn't get in anywhere in the US. The quality of the education is lower, and everyone knows it. This causes them to have a more difficult time passing required board exams. This also affects where they will be accepted into residency, which determines what kind of doctor they can be. Their choices of residencies will be severely limited because they attended medical school in the Caribbean.

[EmilyGF]

I think it's highly inaccurate to suggest that CC students might actually be performing below average given that all evidence suggests something completely different.  You don't have to like CC.  You may even think that it's a crappy all-in-one program.  When CC students out-perform the top state over 50% of the time, it's a fallacy to continue to suggest that their performance is average and probably even below-average.

 

You need statistics that compare students with involved parents to students with involved parents. CC parents are involved; the other SAT averages include students whose parents may be largely absent, students living below the poverty line, students whose parents don't know much about education or college admission. This isn't an apples to apples comparison.

Emily

[YodaGirl]

You need statistics that compare students with involved parents to students with involved parents. CC parents are involved; the other SAT averages include students whose parents may be largely absent, students living below the poverty line, students whose parents don't know much about education or college admission. This isn't an apples to apples comparison.

Emily

I agree that this is a valid point. I forgot that our state requires everyone to take the ACT.

 

Regardless, CC students on average still perform well on standardized tests and generally have no problem entering college.

 

The point of the original post with the scores and college entrance percentages was to counter the suggestion that the CC students' success on standardized tests and their ability to enter college is undetermined. It's not. They still do relatively well on standardized tests, and they don't have trouble gaining college admittance.

[Artichoke]

I know of one or two doctors in our area who have sent their children to foreign countries for med school.  The only reason was that they weren't accepted into any of the med schools in the US.  If the only schools they can gain admittance to are foreign schools, it makes me question their quality.

 

Here are the stats that I previously posted: 

 

ACT Reading

26.3 vs 24.5 vs 21.3 

ACT Science

23.8 vs 23.6 vs 20.8

ACT Math

22.9 vs 24.6 vs 20.9

ACT English

26.8 vs 24.2 vs 20.3

 

SAT Reading

630 vs 612 vs 497

SAT Writing

577 vs 587 vs 487

SAT Math

569 vs 620 vs 513

 

For reference, scores are listed CC student scores first, top state average second, & national average last.  

 

They out-performed the national average every time.  They out-performed the top state 4 out of 7 times.  The only glaring difference is math.  Considering the fact that Saxon is what is recommended, I feel it's safe to assume that most use Saxon.  If Saxon is the issue, that can be easily remedied since students are not required to use it.  We plan to begin AoPS next year.

 

I think it's highly inaccurate to suggest that CC students might actually be performing below average given that all evidence suggests something completely different.  You don't have to like CC.  You may even think that it's a crappy all-in-one program.  When CC students out-perform the top state over 50% of the time, it's a fallacy to continue to suggest that their performance is average and probably even below-average.

 

 

Sorry if I missed a  post, but do you have stats for only homeschoolers and not all who take the ACT or SAT?   Many states require everyone to test nationally in 10th, 11th, or 12th grade.   That comparison would probably be a better indicator for success.    Using state averages convolutes the issue, imo. 

Edited July 15, 2017 by Artichoke

[luuknam]

I think it's highly inaccurate to suggest that CC students might actually be performing below average given that all evidence suggests something completely different.  You don't have to like CC.  You may even think that it's a crappy all-in-one program.  When CC students out-perform the top state over 50% of the time, it's a fallacy to continue to suggest that their performance is average and probably even below-average.

 

 

I'm not saying they're average/below average. I'm saying that if you adjust for things like SES, they might very well be average, or maybe below average. I don't know what the highest performing state is, but iirc MA tends to do pretty well on those kinds of things, so, if I lived in MA, and I'm a random middle to upper middle class household with college-educated parents, then those CC scores might very well be the same or worse than what I might get if I were to send my kid to public or private school, or homeschooled them without CC. Heck, it might even be about the same as what kids from that kind of household tend to get in MS, which tends to score pretty badly. 

[YodaGirl]

Sorry if I missed a  post, but do you have stats for only homeschoolers and not all who take the ACT or SAT?   Many states require everyone to test nationally in 10th, 11th, or 12th grade.   That comparison would probably be a better indicator for success.    Using state averages convolutes the issue, imo. 

 

I will preface this by saying that I'm not completely sure what year CC's average scores were from.  Since they were listed in the 2016 catalog, I'd assume they were from around 2014 or 2015.  The information I found from nheri.org is from 2014.  Given that the national scores mentioned from both sources are identical, I'd say that it's safe to assume that they are from the same year. 

 

I did a quick search for homeschool SAT scores.  One of the first websites I found stated:

 

"The SAT 2014 test scores of college-bound homeschool students were higher than the national average of all college-bound seniors that same year. Some 13,549 homeschool seniors had the following mean scores: 567 in critical reading, 521 in mathematics, and 535 in writing (College Board, 2014a). The mean SAT scores for all college-bound seniors in 2014 were 497 in critical reading, 513 in mathematics, and 487 in writing (College Board, 2014b)."

 

https://www.nheri.org/research/nheri-news/homeschool-sat-scores-for-2014-higher-than-national-average.html

 

The scores I posted earlier (CC vs top state vs natl avg):

 

SAT Reading

630 vs 612 vs 497

SAT Writing

577 vs 587 vs 487

SAT Math

569 vs 620 vs 513

More directly compared, the average CC Homeschooler Score vs Average Homeschooler Score:

 

SAT Reading

630 vs 567

SAT Writing

577 vs 535

SAT Math

569 vs 521

According to this, the average CC homeschooler scored higher than the average homeschooler on every section.

Edited July 15, 2017 by YodaGirl

[...................]

I don't like CC but the last set of statistics seems to reasonably suggest that the students perform better than the average Homeschooler

[Guest]

I don't know anything about CC but I've been curious about the best thread title for a curriculum post ever and rubbernecking to see if it stayed respectful and it looks like it did. For five pages? Really? You guys rock.

 

I have wanted to say "is X a cult or a product or a...." so.many.times. with this whole xtreme wide age gap homeschoolers family.

 

:rofl: :lol:

Edited July 15, 2017 by Guest

[Paige]

 

More directly compared, the average CC Homeschooler Score vs Average Homeschooler Score:

 

SAT Reading

630 vs 567

SAT Writing

577 vs 535

SAT Math

569 vs 521

According to this, the average CC homeschooler scored higher than the average homeschooler on every section.

 

But again, you can't make a direct connection with these stats. There's big difference between the average homeschool family and the CC family. CC is expensive, so families without disposable funds are less likely to be in CC. CC requires parents to attend with the kids, so only parents who are willing and able to be heavily involved are going to CC. Even in HS circles, not everyone is a concerned involved parent, and some are working hard and doing their best, so even if they wanted to go to CC, they can't because of WORK and money making obligations. It's not necessarily a reflection of their levels of care as of their social status. Although, I know some HS families educate in a way that I consider almost neglectful or definitely neglectful.

 

The CC family is privileged. Yes, I know some make great sacrifices to be involved and pay for it, but for many families the time and cost burdens are so high that no sacrifices could make it possible. You need to compare privileged families against privileged families, and privileged families or samples that have a disproportionately high percent of privileged families will always score better than less privileged families or more balanced samples. 

[Gregkar]

Gregkar, I am not sure what you are are saying.

 

Homeschoolers who prepare their children well have a pretty good track record of getting into good colleges for at least a couple of decades now. I don't know that we can say the same about CC or if there are any available stats on that. How many kids are even "graduating" high school from CC after four or more years of the program?

I don't think we actually have reliable, unbiased data yet. I only have anecdotes from other homeschoolers of all stripes (which encourage me a LOT!) and unverified claims by CC.

 

 

It seems like you are worried about homeschool transcripts for college admission vs. CC, with the idea that CC or another program like it would "look better".

No, my concern lies with transcripts produced by ANY non-accredited person or organization. We're in California, so we're are probably going to be on the forefront of any legal conflict.

 

 

 

Nothing comes for free.

I know this all too well.

 

Homeschooling high school requires an investment of significant time, energy, and usually money, more or less depending on various circumstances. If you want excellent academics without any DIY element and don't like your ps district, it will cost you, and at some tipping point, if you want cookie-cutter, hands-off, and high standards, you might be looking at private school. I truly think the university model or cottage schools might be the best in-between, but, like any private school or CC or anything else, a lot depends on the people involved.

I am well aware.

 

My main goal is to give my child the BEST possible education within my means without foreclosing his college and grad school possibilities, should he choose to pursue that.

 

I am myself a "product" of the California PS system. (Actually, I'm a product of being autodidactic, but that's another story.) As such, I know all too well the horrors and institutionally wasted opportunities provided by PS. I want my child to have BETTER so that he can choose to become more than a proletarian thrall, if he likes.

[Gregkar]

I will preface this by saying that I'm not completely sure what year CC's average scores were from.  Since they were listed in the 2016 catalog, I'd assume they were from around 2014 or 2015.  The information I found from nheri.org is from 2014.  Given that the national scores mentioned from both sources are identical, I'd say that it's safe to assume that they are from the same year. 

 

I did a quick search for homeschool SAT scores.  One of the first websites I found stated:

 

"The SAT 2014 test scores of college-bound homeschool students were higher than the national average of all college-bound seniors that same year. Some 13,549 homeschool seniors had the following mean scores: 567 in critical reading, 521 in mathematics, and 535 in writing (College Board, 2014a). The mean SAT scores for all college-bound seniors in 2014 were 497 in critical reading, 513 in mathematics, and 487 in writing (College Board, 2014b)."

 

https://www.nheri.org/research/nheri-news/homeschool-sat-scores-for-2014-higher-than-national-average.html

 

The scores I posted earlier (CC vs top state vs natl avg):

 

SAT Reading

630 vs 612 vs 497

SAT Writing

577 vs 587 vs 487

SAT Math

569 vs 620 vs 513

More directly compared, the average CC Homeschooler Score vs Average Homeschooler Score:

 

SAT Reading

630 vs 567

SAT Writing

577 vs 535

SAT Math

569 vs 521

According to this, the average CC homeschooler scored higher than the average homeschooler on every section.

Without the context of the Z-Scores, percentiles, study design, etc. this doesn't tell us as much as it would appear. Yes, the raw scores may be higher, but if they are still less than 1 SD above the mean, it tells us NOTHING (for certain).

[Gregkar]

Re: medical school in the Caribbean

 

The students who go to medical school in the Caribbean do so because they didn't get in anywhere in the US. The quality of the education is lower, and everyone knows it. This causes them to have a more difficult time passing required board exams. This also affects where they will be accepted into residency, which determines what kind of doctor they can be. Their choices of residencies will be severely limited because they attended medical school in the Caribbean.

EXACTLY!

[Gregkar]

Agree. I don't know the name of the study, but Andrew Pudewa has discussed many times a study that showed once you accounted for two parent households (with a parent involved with the child's education) it erased the "homeschool" advantage when it came to test scores. It makes sense that parental involvement is the biggest factor if test scores are the only end result being measured for sure.

Comparing Apples to Apples....

 

GOOD POINT on the rival hypothesis.

[YodaGirl]

But again, you can't make a direct connection with these stats. There's big difference between the average homeschool family and the CC family. CC is expensive, so families without disposable funds are less likely to be in CC. CC requires parents to attend with the kids, so only parents who are willing and able to be heavily involved are going to CC. Even in HS circles, not everyone is a concerned involved parent, and some are working hard and doing their best, so even if they wanted to go to CC, they can't because of WORK and money making obligations. It's not necessarily a reflection of their levels of care as of their social status. Although, I know some HS families educate in a way that I consider almost neglectful or definitely neglectful.

 

The CC family is privileged. Yes, I know some make great sacrifices to be involved and pay for it, but for many families the time and cost burdens are so high that no sacrifices could make it possible. You need to compare privileged families against privileged families, and privileged families or samples that have a disproportionately high percent of privileged families will always score better than less privileged families or more balanced samples. 

 

Most families in our community are far from privileged.  Sure, a handful are, but that's certainly not the norm.

 

I get the distinct feeling that whatever I post will be questioned unless those results indicate that CC students perform at or below average, but I'll play, anyway.   ;)

 

Previously, we've been looking at 2014 SAT results.  I had a difficult time finding results from 2014 that were separated by income, but I did find an article analyzing the 2013 test results.  Now, I know that there can be some issues with comparing separate years. However, this article from the Washington Post indicates that the results between 2013 & 2014 were stagnant.

 

2013 Scores according to this article are 

Reading: 496

Writing:  488

Math:  514

Those scores are all within 1 point of their 2014 scores.

 

So, the statistics I posted earlier:

The scores I posted earlier (CC vs top state vs natl avg):

SAT Reading

630 vs 612 vs 497

SAT Writing

577 vs 587 vs 487

SAT Math

569 vs 620 vs 513

More directly compared, the average CC Homeschooler Score vs Average Homeschooler Score:

SAT Reading

630 vs 567

SAT Writing

577 vs 535

SAT Math

569 vs 521

 

MSNBC published this article in March 2014 comparing family incomes and SAT scores.  The Washington Post also posted a similar article. 

 

Let's continue under the assumption that CC families are privileged and look at SAT scores of students with a household income of approximately $180,000 - 200,000.  It's important to note that neither article gives an exact score.  We'll have to estimate the scores based on the graph.  

MSNBC shows that students in families with a combined income of $180,000-200,000 scored (approximately):

Reading:  545

Writing:  540

Math: 565

Exact CC Scores vs. Approximate $180,000-200,000 income:

Reading:

630 vs 545

Writing:

577 vs 540

Math:

569 vs 565

 

The average student enrolled in CC out-performed the average student with a combined household income of $180,000 - 200,000.  Granted, the math scores are close.

 

I don't have statistics regarding CC family incomes, and I don't know what you call "privileged."  In my experience, the majority of families in our community make far less than $180,000.  Granted, I don't know what their exact incomes are, but I do know their professions. 

Sidenote:  I know that the numbers you asked for were regarding high-income homeschoolers.  If that data exists, I have no clue where to find it.  However, I can't imagine that there would be a glaring difference between the $180,000 - 200,000 income bracket test scores of public, private, & homeschooled students.  If someone else was to find it, I would love to see the comparison.  Based on the comparisons I've already seen, I have a pretty good idea how that would turn out.

I do want to emphasize that I'm not trying to imply that CC is the best program out there for everyone.  I mentioned earlier that I don't think it's the best option for everyone.  I'm not even sure that CC in high school will be the best option for us.  My point is that CC students are successful, they score well, and they are easily able to gain college admission.  I think if one compared similarly solid programs with CC, one would find that the scores were similar.

[YodaGirl]

Without the context of the Z-Scores, percentiles, study design, etc. this doesn't tell us as much as it would appear. Yes, the raw scores may be higher, but if they are still less than 1 SD above the mean, it tells us NOTHING (for certain).

I respectfully disagree, but that's okay!  :)

[yvonne]

nm

Edited July 15, 2017 by yvonne

[Paige]

Most families in our community are far from privileged.  Sure, a handful are, but that's certainly not the norm.

 

I get the distinct feeling that whatever I post will be questioned unless those results indicate that CC students perform at or below average, but I'll play, anyway.   ;)

 

Previously, we've been looking at 2014 SAT results.  I had a difficult time finding results from 2014 that were separated by income, but I did find an article analyzing the 2013 test results.  Now, I know that there can be some issues with comparing separate years. However, this article from the Washington Post indicates that the results between 2013 & 2014 were stagnant.

 

2013 Scores according to this article are 

Reading: 496

Writing:  488

Math:  514

Those scores are all within 1 point of their 2014 scores.

 

So, the statistics I posted earlier:

The scores I posted earlier (CC vs top state vs natl avg):

SAT Reading

630 vs 612 vs 497

SAT Writing

577 vs 587 vs 487

SAT Math

569 vs 620 vs 513

More directly compared, the average CC Homeschooler Score vs Average Homeschooler Score:

SAT Reading

630 vs 567

SAT Writing

577 vs 535

SAT Math

569 vs 521

 

MSNBC published this article in March 2014 comparing family incomes and SAT scores.  The Washington Post also posted a similar article. 

 

Let's continue under the assumption that CC families are privileged and look at SAT scores of students with a household income of approximately $180,000 - 200,000.  It's important to note that neither article gives an exact score.  We'll have to estimate the scores based on the graph.  

MSNBC shows that students in families with a combined income of $180,000-200,000 scored (approximately):

Reading:  545

Writing:  540

Math: 565

Exact CC Scores vs. Approximate $180,000-200,000 income:

Reading:

630 vs 545

Writing:

577 vs 540

Math:

569 vs 565

 

The average student enrolled in CC out-performed the average student with a combined household income of $180,000 - 200,000.  Granted, the math scores are close.

 

I don't have statistics regarding CC family incomes, and I don't know what you call "privileged."  In my experience, the majority of families in our community make far less than $180,000.  Granted, I don't know what their exact incomes are, but I do know their professions. 

Sidenote:  I know that the numbers you asked for were regarding high-income homeschoolers.  If that data exists, I have no clue where to find it.  However, I can't imagine that there would be a glaring difference between the $180,000 - 200,000 income bracket test scores of public, private, & homeschooled students.  If someone else was to find it, I would love to see the comparison.  Based on the comparisons I've already seen, I have a pretty good idea how that would turn out.

I do want to emphasize that I'm not trying to imply that CC is the best program out there for everyone.  I mentioned earlier that I don't think it's the best option for everyone.  I'm not even sure that CC in high school will be the best option for us.  My point is that CC students are successful, they score well, and they are easily able to gain college admission.  I think if one compared similarly solid programs with CC, one would find that the scores were similar.

 

I wouldn't put the income for privileged so high. I think it would vary by community. It may take 180,000 in some cities but in others you may be able to live a privileged lifestyle at less than half of that. I don't think CC is a bad program or that the kids who go through it will be at any disadvantage. I only think kids with equally involved parents and parents with similar resources regarding time and money probably score similarly. For us, CC wouldn't work b/c I'm too much of a control freak regarding curricula, but I know many people who love it and feel it makes their homeschool life easier. 

[Lori D.]

...my concern lies with transcripts produced by ANY non-accredited person or organization. We're in California...

 

Disclaimer: using this statement from the previous post as a springboard to pull together some information about accreditation for those who may be interested -- not as a comment or argument with any poster. :)

 

 

Just would like to point out that not all brick & mortar high schools in the US are accredited, so transcripts and diplomas awarded by these high schools are not accredited. ;)

 

This can cause a problem with college admissions in some cases -- usually problematic with high schools that are based on "credit recovery" or those that are working to move students at high risk of dropping out through to graduation. In other cases, non-accreditation is not a problem -- usually the small "specialized", or private, or parochial high schools. CA is the rare state that also tracks and requires accreditation from brick & mortar high schools as well.

 

Homeschool transcripts and diplomas are also not accredited, but are treated very differently by colleges -- with widespread acceptance. Most colleges (outside of CA and NY) treat home-awarded diplomas and transcripts in the same way as those awarded by a public/private/charter high school. Some colleges do require a minor extra "hoop" to jump -- usually just the requirement of an SAT/ACT test score. A small number of colleges might require additional paperwork, a possible portfolio of past work, several SAT Subject test scores, or other requirement from homeschoolers.

 

In GA, resident homeschool parents can go through the accreditation process, so their transcripts and diplomas are accredited.

 

Homeschool families of any state can go through an accredited umbrella organization (Clonlara, Kolbe, etc.), that provides an accredited diploma and transcripts, which are accepted by colleges in all states, except for some of the NY SUNY/CUNY schools.

 

Even in CA and NY, there are (difficult, annoying, restrictive) processes that homeschool high school students can go through so that their transcripts and diplomas will be accepted by colleges in those states. And some individual colleges in NY are less restrictive than others. Here is a list of NY Homeschool-Friendly Colleges.

 

If living inside CA or NY and planning on attending a college outside of those states, homeschoolers do NOT need to have followed the CA or NY restrictive regulations specifically for college admission in order to have transcripts and diplomas accepted at the outside-of-CA-or-NY college -- homeschoolers need only to meet the requirements of the specific college (usually just completion of a specific set of credits and an SAT/ACT score).

 

If living outside of CA or NY and wanting to attend a college inside CA or NY, homeschoolers DO need to meet those more restrictive homeschool requirements. CA colleges are a bit more flexible, allowing out-of-state homeschool applicants to show "essentially equivalent" courses. From the UC Admissions for Homeschool Students webpage: "Your home schooling courses are UC-approved for satisfying a-g requirements (for students in California), or are essentially equivalent to UC approved courses for California high schools (for out-of-state students)."

 

Again, just to clarify: Classical Conversation (CC) is a homeschool co-op, and not an accredited school or umbrella organization, and so the for-a-fee transcripts prepared by CC are not accredited, nor is any diploma that CC might provide. The only benefit of paying for CC record-keeping is the convenience of not having to do so yourself. Colleges do not give extra weight or consideration to transcripts created by CC, or see them as being more "official" (see SWB's post #80 of this thread). CC's unaccredited transcripts are identical in "weight" to the unaccredited transcripts prepared by homeschool parents.

Edited July 15, 2017 by Lori D.

[Wheres Toto]

I"m curious about where the scores for CC students came from.   I would assume that those scores are those students where the parents told CC what their kids scored?    Self-reporting of that type often skews results since those who didn't do well, may not want to share that information.  If I'm missing something, and there is some way that CC was sent the official scores for all students that were enrolled, let me know.

 

Also, from one of the links back a few pages - do they really charge $100 to apply to be a tutor?

[YodaGirl]

I"m curious about where the scores for CC students came from. I would assume that those scores are those students where the parents told CC what their kids scored? Self-reporting of that type often skews results since those who didn't do well, may not want to share that information. If I'm missing something, and there is some way that CC was sent the official scores for all students that were enrolled, let me know.

 

Also, from one of the links back a few pages - do they really charge $100 to apply to be a tutor?

The scores are from CC's catalog. I don't know where they originated from, although I would assume it is self-reported. I don't have time to look into it at the moment.

 

No, tutors don't pay $100 to apply to be a tutor. Tutors dont pay anything to be a tutor.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

Most families in our community are far from privileged.  Sure, a handful are, but that's certainly not the norm...

 

 

Let's continue under the assumption that CC families are privileged and look at SAT scores of students with a household income of approximately $180,000 - 200,000....

 

I don't have statistics regarding CC family incomes, and I don't know what you call "privileged."  In my experience, the majority of families in our community make far less than $180,000.  Granted, I don't know what their exact incomes are, but I do know their professions....

.[/i]

YodaGirl, if you'll look at the median income in your city, you will probably get a new perspective on whether cc families are necessarily privileged. In my city, the median income is around $50,000, and people at that level are frequently making hard choices regarding kids' extracurriculars and health care. No chance of paying for CC. (However, those of us hs'ers near median income have been known to help our kids to an Ivy League prep level education, all on our own, thanks to resources such as WTM and library cards...)

[Lang Syne Boardie]

The scores are from CC's catalog. I don't know where they originated from, although I would assume it is self-reported. I don't have time to look into it at the moment.

 

No, tutors don't pay $100 to apply to be a tutor. Tutors dont pay anything to be a tutor.

Of course, they are self-reported!

[YodaGirl]

YodaGirl, if you'll look at the median income in your city, you will probably get a new perspective on whether cc families are necessarily privileged. In my city, the median income is around $50,000, and people at that level are frequently making hard choices regarding kids' extracurriculars and health care. No chance of paying for CC. (However, those of us hs'ers near median income have been known to help our kids to an Ivy League prep level education, all on our own, thanks to resources such as WTM and library cards...)

 

 

The median income in my city is just under $40,000. Over half of our community comes from a neighboring town with a median income of just under $47,000.

 

At least two families fall in that range. One of them actually has 3 children enrolled in CC. I can think of 4 families who would be considered upper-class. The rest would fall solidly in middle-class.

 

Can you successfully home school your child without going through CC? Absolutely! Why would anyone suggest otherwise? No one is suggesting that CC is the best and only way to successfully homeschool. I've actually said over and over that it's not.

 

Honestly, I think some of the defensiveness of anti-CC'ers comes from the idea that CC families are wealthy and that they think CC is better than non-CC. That's just not the case.

 

Of course, they are self-reported!

Well, that's why I assumed they were. ;)

[HSmomof2]

 

 

The median income in my city is just under $40,000. Over half of our community comes from a neighboring town with a median income of just under $47,000.

 

At least two families fall in that range. One of them actually has 3 children enrolled in CC. I can think of 4 families who would be considered upper-class. The rest would fall solidly in middle-class.

 

Can you successfully home school your child without going through CC? Absolutely! Why would anyone suggest otherwise? No one is suggesting that CC is the best and only way to successfully homeschool. I've actually said over and over that it's not.

 

Honestly, I think some of the defensiveness of anti-CC'ers comes from the idea that CC families are wealthy and that they think CC is better than non-CC. That's just not the case.

 

 

Well, that's why I assumed they were. ;)

That's my experience here as well. We are not upper income by any means. This will be our first year of CC, and it's a stretch for us. The rest of our community are also not privileged/upper income. I have mixed feelings about CC, but am confident in our tutors, and believe the social/group dynamics will be good for my teens. I do work part-time, and being able to drop off my students (both in Challenge) is one of the benefits for us because their community day is a work day for me. The other local co-op requires parents stay all day, which is fine but doesn't work well for us. Generally, I would prefer a cottage or UM school, but they don't exist here. I don't know about the differences in test scores and don't really care. I care about preparing my two students, which is what I'll do. CC doesn't provide a transcript and doesn't claim to be a school. In their materials and website, I've seen it said over and over that the parent is the teacher. Tutors are there to provide support and direct class discussion and activity. I think it's important to go into CC with an accurate understanding of what it is and isn't....and I'm sure there's a lot of variation in the quality and dynamics of the communities. For our family this year, I think we're making the best choice of what's available in our area and hoping that it will meet our needs. Most homeschoolers here (CC and otherwise) switch to dual enrollment at the community college for 11/12th grades, which is our plan as well.

[Itsnotasprint]

 

 

 

 

Honestly, I think some of the defensiveness of anti-CC'ers comes from the idea that CC families are wealthy and that they think CC is better than non-CC. That's just not the case.

 

 

 

My personal experience and experiences that others have shared with me is why I would never use CC again nor would I recommend it to anyone. 

 

The higher ups are so busy trying to make sure no one infringes on their copyrighted materials that they require people to notify people higher up on the chain of command if they even suspect that someone might be using their materials incorrectly. They are not encouraged to go directly to the person spoken about to find out if something is true or not. I was thoroughly ripped apart by a director who heard untrue things about me. She went around to the tutors asking what I was doing and became convinced that a tutor was breaking her contract by tutoring at my house. She was completely WRONG and then refused to believe I was telling her the truth.  She trashed my reputation with a false accusation among the tutors and people who attended the church where CC was hosted. 

 

The area manager wanted to talk with me over the phone, but I respectfully  requested having questions answered via email communication. She was kind enough to do that for me.  I've left CC, but the director has remained in CC with no apparent consequences for her behavior. She is no longer a director because people left her campus, but she is still an active part of CC. 

[YodaGirl]

My personal experience and experiences that others have shared with me is why I would never use CC again nor would I recommend it to anyone.

 

The higher ups are so busy trying to make sure no one infringes on their copyrighted materials that they require people to notify people higher up on the chain of command if they even suspect that someone might be using their materials incorrectly. They are not encouraged to go directly to the person spoken about to find out if something is true or not. I was thoroughly ripped apart by a director who heard untrue things about me. She went around to the tutors asking what I was doing and became convinced that a tutor was breaking her contract by tutoring at my house. She was completely WRONG and then refused to believe I was telling her the truth. She trashed my reputation with a false accusation among the tutors and people who attended the church where CC was hosted.

 

The area manager wanted to talk with me over the phone, but I respectfully requested having questions answered via email communication. She was kind enough to do that for me. I've left CC, but the director has remained in CC with no apparent consequences for her behavior. She is no longer a director because people left her campus, but she is still an active part of CC.

That's absolutely insane! I'm so sorry that happened to you.

 

Our campus is completely different, as is one of the campuses in the next town over. There are good and bad campuses, and there is at least one around here that I would not recommend.

 

I think experiences and reviews vary so much because the quality of campuses and directors vary so much. This is definitely one of those tones when your mileage may vary.

[HomeAgain]

I have had very little experience with CC, but given what I have had I'd rather not have any more.

 

The parents were very thrilled to be part of their community.  Very.  They talked about it at every turn.

 

The children were very informed when it came to rote information.  They could read and write and color maps well.  When I asked which pronunciation they used for Latin, though, both the young teens and parents were confused.  "We don't read it aloud.  We just write it."

 

When I found myself sharing my 1st grader's materials with upper CC parents for English and Latin, I decided perhaps we better continue doing this at home instead of looking into the community.

 

There seems to be a wide range of education offered through CC.  It makes me doubt some of the test numbers given in this thread, or at the very least the idea that my kid would do better there instead of where he is.

[fralala]

 

 

Honestly, I think some of the defensiveness of anti-CC'ers comes from the idea that CC families are wealthy and that they think CC is better than non-CC. That's just not the case.

 

 

This is a very good point. I don't have any such opinions about the people who choose to do CC, but I think you've identified something I do feel.

 

I have no personal experience with CC, but I read one of Leigh Bortin's books, and I would say that those peddling classical education models and curricula in the modern era do have a serious issue of coming off (to me) as both pretentious and preying on the insecurities of people who don't feel like they were educated well.

 

Maybe I am alone and this is more about my own baggage (grew up poor, but through fortunate circumstances ended up graduating from HYP), but I think if you don't have a high degree of self-confidence in your own worth as an educated person and educator, it can be easy to believe every bad thing these purveyors of classical education say about the education you received (and competing educational models) and every positive thing they say about their own product.

 

Somehow-- despite making some similar remarks about the state of public education in the U.S. and reasons for following a different model of education-- TWTM just doesn't give me this vibe of "We aren't just an option that might work for some kids and some parents, we are really the superior model of educating all human beings" that I got from reading Bortins. (And again, this may be more about my own personal hang-ups re: elitism than anything particularly wrong with CC, but I did feel like part of me identified with the above comment.)