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SparklyUnicorn

Is classical conversations a cult..or product..or..

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Wow! So glad I dodged that bullet. One visit told me it was a crazy cult. After Montessori I just won't fall for another bowl of kool-aid. Thanks for this. It doesn't surprise me.

 

We are test driving CC. They have a reasonably good turn-key system for younger children. Our local group is filled with fabulous people- especially the TEACHERS (not "tutors-" this "distinction without a difference" should be informal fallacy 1 that they teach.). The material is otherwise more than adequately challenging for crumb crunchers.

 

The first important disconnect occurs in the discussion of the Philosophy of Science. There is a BIG disjunction between the Empirical method and metaphysics, and no amount of frosting is going to ever smooth this over. It's the Religion of Public School in reverse. Now, to the extent that the parents wish to maintain their children's purity of creed, this is EXACTLY what you want. However, if your goal in education is for your child to be properly prepared for the sciences and/or to be a competent apologist, then knowing the Empirical method inside and out is *sine qua non.*

 

That said, without stirring any other parents' soup (because unlike the government, I RESPECT the SOVEREIGN RIGHT of parents to educate their children as they see fit), I can assure you that our children will not be lacking in this area.

 

Finally, despite the wonderful things our local group is and does, make no mistake that CC is about as much of a ministry as Scientology is. Like Scientology, you are kept in the dark about what future steps REALLY are (in detail) and fed a lot of malarkey about proprietary systems and materials. ("Hey guys! I think I'll go out and patent arithmetic, puppy dogs, fluffy bunny rabbits, blue skies, and sun shine! I'll be rich! Whoo hoo!" CC plays a bad game of hiding the ball and they contort what is clearly a MLM business to masquerade as a ministry.

 

As of now, the market is wide open for a competitor or some other honest broker of a Soup to Nuts, Lock, Stock, and Barrel, CompleteTurn Key Homeschooling system. That day has not arrived as of yet. Maybe someone will get on the ball. The barriers to entry are ridiculously low.

 

And speaking of WIDE OPEN, keep your EYES wide open should you decide to purchase their products. In case your experience with CC goes sideways, always know in advance what your contingency plan(s) is(are).

 

PS, One other thing- CC members are NOT background checked. If I walked in as a parent, and met another version of myself... ("myself" as the example so I do not unwittingly slander some other father and muddy their good reputation) ...with a nice suit and hair cut, would I simply TRUST that person to instruct my 12 year old daughter unsupervised?

 

Yeah, neither would I and nor should you.

 

Are females "safer" perhaps? Without being sexist, I think we all intuit the answer to that one. Some things are just tacitly understood. But you never know. I believe in background checks on EVERYONE. It's a pity that we can't do FORE-ground checks and predict the future bad behavior of people, a la the screen play *Minority Report.*

 

Edited by Gregkar
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As of now, the market is wide open for a competitor or some other honest broker of a Soup to Nuts, Lock, Stock, and Barrel, CompleteTurn Key Homeschooling system. That day has not arrived as of yet. Maybe someone will get on the ball. The barriers to entry are ridiculously low.

 

Then you have people like me who cringe at that very idea bc we view that entire proposal as the antithesis of homeschooling and actually creating a school that simply attempts to fly under the radar of regulating bodies. (Of course I actually embrace homeschooling as home schooling.)

 

Creating an entire k12 curriculum that students study and come to a building with teachers teaching those subjects based on that curriculum, that is really a school with parents simply doing what they are provided and told. I personally believe that type of system should fall under a different regulating system than homeschooling. That would really closer to a private school or a morphed version of a correspondence school with an in-class element than a homeschool. To become a national for-profit chain with no accredition or regulation....that to me does not serve the needs of children and would most likely offer poorer educational outcomes. (And I am not sure why parents would want to trust a program with no real oversight over curriculum selection/design or qualifications of teachers when they are handing off that responsibility to someone/something else.)

 

Fwiw, university model schools exist, and they are typically much stronger academically than CC. If they actually have the name UM, then I think they fall under the UM accrediting body since I think that they are accredited in some way. If my understanding is correct, they do have regulations and qualified teachers. (I am not 100% positive though. I just remember reading something about accreditation. If ai wanted to enroll my kids in something like that, I would want to know.)

 

Know what is currently available to parents? Loads of curriculum options and tools for teaching their kids at home when parents take on the responsibility to educate their children without enrolling in a school. The educational "outcome barrier" should be the paramount concern before the decision to homeschool is made and that outcome "barrier cost" should be based on very high standards.

Edited by 8FillTheHeart
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We are test driving CC. They have a reasonably good turn-key system for younger children. Our local group is filled with fabulous people- especially the TEACHERS (not "tutors-" this "distinction without a difference" should be informal fallacy 1 that they teach.). The material is otherwise more than adequately challenging for crumb crunchers.

 

The first important disconnect occurs in the discussion of the Philosophy of Science. There is a BIG disjunction between the Empirical method and metaphysics, and no amount of frosting is going to ever smooth this over. It's the Religion of Public School in reverse. Now, to the extent that the parents wish to maintain their children's purity of creed, this is EXACTLY what you want. However, if your goal in education is for your child to be properly prepared for the sciences and/or to be a competent apologist, then knowing the Empirical method inside and out is *sine qua non.*

 

That said, without stirring any other parents' soup (because unlike the government, I RESPECT the SOVEREIGN RIGHT of parents to educate their children as they see fit), I can assure you that our children will not be lacking in this area.

 

Finally, despite the wonderful things our local group is and does, make no mistake that CC is about as much of a ministry as Scientology is. Like Scientology, you are kept in the dark about what future steps REALLY are (in detail) and fed a lot of malarkey about proprietary systems and materials. ("Hey guys! I think I'll go out and patent arithmetic, puppy dogs, fluffy bunny rabbits, blue skies, and sun shine! I'll be rich! Whoo hoo!" CC plays a bad game of hiding the ball and they contort what is clearly a MLM business to masquerade as a ministry.

 

As of now, the market is wide open for a competitor or some other honest broker of a Soup to Nuts, Lock, Stock, and Barrel, CompleteTurn Key Homeschooling system. That day has not arrived as of yet. Maybe someone will get on the ball. The barriers to entry are ridiculously low.

 

And speaking of WIDE OPEN, keep your EYES wide open should you decide to purchase their products. In case your experience with CC goes sideways, always know in advance what your contingency plan(s) is(are).

 

PS, One other thing- CC members are NOT background checked. If I walked in as a parent, and met another version of myself... ("myself" as the example so I do not unwittingly slander some other father and muddy their good reputation) ...with a nice suit and hair cut, would I simply TRUST that person to instruct my 12 year old daughter unsupervised?

 

Yeah, neither would I and nor should you.

 

Are females "safer" perhaps? Without being sexist, I think we all intuit the answer to that one. Some things are just tacitly understood. But you never know. I believe in background checks on EVERYONE. It's a pity that we can't do FORE-ground checks and predict the future bad behavior of people, a la the screen play *Minority Report.*

 

With all due respect to your wife and my husband, I think I love you. J/K but it does gall me to realize that I knew immediately from your unflinching tone that you are a man.

 

As for the background checks: I'm on my fourth heard (first-hand) story of child endangerment, sexual harassment, or outright physical abuse on a CC campus. You haven't heard about them, right? That's because in each one, I am told by the victims, the matter was hushed up at a managerial level by shunning, accusations of "gossip", and/or most disturbingly, the knowledge that to take such things to the appropriate authorities would likely imperil the director (who is usually the victim's friend) more than the CC corporation. Why background check when you can place all the liability on some poor schlub who may be unwittingly running what may not being acknowledged to be a franchise of the parent corporation?

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Even American heritage girls has background checks and a full propriety safety and mandatory reporter course!! It takes minimal dollars and only two hours of the worker /volunteer time!!! I cannot understand why they don’t do it

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I'm no expert but here's my suspicion. American Heritage Girls is a non-profit and no one is making money. CC is a private, for-profit, and every director is (supposed to be) making money in her own "independent business" which is the CC community. She's a licensee of CC, allowed to use the Classical Conversations name in exchange for a licensing fee. Soooo, it's money-making at every level. Also, the vast majority of workers for CC communities are paid as "independent contractors". My guess is that requiring background checks would make those workers look even less like true independent contractors (and, in my opinion, looking at the IRS guidelines, those workers already don't look like independent contractors but employees). Add a required background check to all the other controls, and... I just think they *might* be worried it will be a red flag against the independent contractor status. That's just me spitballing, though. I think it's a similar reason that Uber staunchly refuses to fingerprint check their drivers. I don't think it's the cost of the fingerprinting. I think it's that their business model of all drivers being "independent contractors" is already under fire (see multiple state-level lawsuits where workers claim they were classified as independent contractors when they were treated as employees) and they know requiring fingerprinting would even further blur that line of whether or not their workers are really ICs. Again, I'm spitballing about Uber's motives, but it seems like a logical conclusion to me.

Edited by Loolamay
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Our director does go above and beyond to ensure that our kiddos are as safe as possible. We have strict policies about bathroom usage and adult/student one-on-one interaction.

 

That said, background checks should be mandatory, IMO. I've been background-checked for a bazillion volunteer positions. There aren't many legit reasons that would explain why they don't have them.

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Well, whaddya know? I found this:

https://classical-conversations.helpscoutdocs.com/article/40-who-can-be-a-tutor-for-classical-conversations

 

It may be a very recent thing, since the article was updated in September of this year. I know two years ago when I tutored no directors or tutors in our area were background checked. The article does not say it's mandatory just that you "must submit to a background check", but it certainly seems like a step in the right direction...

 

It is weird though that, according to that article I linked above, a Challenge director must have at least one child at or above that Challenge level, and I know at least one Challenge director, new this year, who definitely does not have a Challenge-aged child, so it does make one wonder how much of their own "rules" they are following/enforcing.

Edited by Loolamay

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I would guess it varies by location....all of the tutors and directors in our community have been background checked. Our community also has rules for two adults in each class. We’re new to CC Challenge level, and I don’t agree with all of CC’s business practices or curriculum choices, but so far the positives outweigh the negatives for our family.

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For those feeling like CC is a MLM.....google Noble Gibbens. He is CC’s marketing director and also sells......Amway. He is actually pretty high up in Amway. And is absolutely running CC like a MLM. This company is neither Christian or a ministry.

 

I'm sure it was here that someone said cc is like the Amway of homeschooling.  My friend and I laughed at that and now to hear they have someone who worked for Amway is hilarious.  Thanks for sharing that!

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Well, whaddya know? I found this:

https://classical-conversations.helpscoutdocs.com/article/40-who-can-be-a-tutor-for-classical-conversations

 

It may be a very recent thing, since the article was updated in September of this year. I know two years ago when I tutored no directors or tutors in our area were background checked. The article does not say it's mandatory just that you "must submit to a background check", but it certainly seems like a step in the right direction...

 

It is weird though that, according to that article I linked above, a Challenge director must have at least one child at or above that Challenge level, and I know at least one Challenge director, new this year, who definitely does not have a Challenge-aged child, so it does make one wonder how much of their own "rules" they are following/enforcing.

I also know a Foundations tutor without a child in Foundations. I think some of it is a "let's see if we can do this withoit being caught" thing. In this particular situation, there didn't seem to be another tutor to be able to step in.

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... I don’t agree with all of CC’s business practices or curriculum choices, but so far the positives outweigh the negatives for our family.

 

Ditto. CC has huge gaping defects, but for today they are the best of the limited options in our area for our child.

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Yes, all school-aged kids have to be in the program. I know someone who put her high school kids into Challenge so they could continue as a family even though she had them doing over half of their work elsewhere. They say it is for providing a consistent "face" to the program. I can see it somewhat, but I've never heard of a university model or private school doing that. In our county we actually have an elementary and a high school principal whose wives homeschool all of their kids, and it's not a requirement for them to have their kids in public school either.

 

 

I am not a CC administrator but I have never heard of this in my experience with Classical Conversations.

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I am not a CC administrator but I have never heard of this in my experience with Classical Conversations.

It's absolutely stated policy and has been for at least 7 years. Here is the quote from CC's website:

"In order to show commitment to the mission “To know God and to make Him known†through a classical education and to provide continuity to the progress of each program, each Director should enroll all of their age-appropriate children in a local community (if there is one within a 25-minute drive).

 

Classical Conversations’ programs are a fit for the Director’s entire family."

 

https://offer.classicalconversations.com/directors-info-landing-page/

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I think there may be some confusion as to who has to be enrolled. Obviously, directors' children have to he enrolled per the above quote. I will say that's not enforced, given that our director's youngest son was not enrolled despite meeting the minimum age requirement.

 

As for the children of tutors or non-contracted parents, it is not a requirement at all for all children in a family to be enrolled. However, all children on campus who meet the minimum age requirement must be enrolled. Basically, parents can't enroll one child then have the others sit with them in the back of the class or in the lunchroom.

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It was unfortunately so strictly enforced at our campus that our director was having to find someone to drive one of her 5 children - a Challenge 2 aged student - to a campus 30 minutes away because it was the only Challenge 2 in the area but met on the same day as our F/E community day. (Director could not be in two places at once.) Of course, the reps' suggestion was not that the rule could be eased up on but that our director should recruit someone from our community to start more Challenge programs. So... that's a alternative theory as to why this is a corporate rule - not just to maintain the integrity of the program but to build new campuses ($$$). And when a second child of hers was miserable in Challenge A because of learning issues, there was *no* leniency to seek another program more suited to her other child's needs. Honestly, the intractability of corporate managers on this issue, along with about two other issues, is what ultimately drove our entire (full - 48 students) community to leave CC (except for the support manager and her best friend). I guess this is still a ymmv situation but I don't expect it to be for long. The long arm of corporate rules will eventually reach all CC communities.

Edited by Loolamay

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I directed a community 6 years ago.  My dd at the time was four but acted more like she was 2 due to being adopted.  She really didn't belong in a CC classroom even with a GREAT tutor for that age group.  She was just too immature even for her age.  She sat in the windowsill, played with the toys in the room, or laid under the table.  She wasn't interrupting so the tutor just let her do her thing.  If they had some wiggle room in the rules to let the parents have some discretion, she would have been in the nursery where it was really developmentally appropriate for her.  Then, a year after I stopped directing, the whole state blew up a little when my state administrator went on a retreat with CC and found out what really went on behind the scenes.  She wound up telling what happened to her and a bunch of directors quit as a result.  It had a lot to do with how CC is a ministry at the base level and pay "ministry" pay (i.e. it's the ministry not the money that motivates me), but the people who own it really treat it like a money making business.  Most people know that now, but 6 years ago, it was hidden what Leigh Borton was really making.

Edited by bethben
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I think part of the confusion is that directors have to answer to a different set of rules than tutors. Of course, those rules seem to be enforced differently at each campus.

 

I do agree that more people are becoming aware of what some would refer to as a hidden agenda. I don't foresee us continuing on our CC journey for a variety of reasons.

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Seems to be the only way to break into the Christian homeschool community here. Which is sad, because that feels like buying community

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Seems to be the only way to break into the Christian homeschool community here. Which is sad, because that feels like buying community

It is the same here. For those of us who don’t want to do CC, there is absolutely nothing else. I was homeschooled and had not expected this—I still thought there were park days and informal gym classes and support groups. Nope.

 

Ds7 is very lonely. He’s going back to public school next week, and the obsession with CC is a big part of why.

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It is the same here. For those of us who don’t want to do CC, there is absolutely nothing else. I was homeschooled and had not expected this—I still thought there were park days and informal gym classes and support groups. Nope.

 

Ds7 is very lonely. He’s going back to public school next week, and the obsession with CC is a big part of why.

This is sad. I hope he has a good year at school.

 

We joined CC is a search for community, too.

 

Now CC is asking for “Brand Ambassadors†who will take the CC name to news outlets and magazines and local homeschool groups. You have to volunteer and be vetted. I guess it’s an honor to have a part-time job on CC’s behalf? But CC may be growing in the years to come.

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It is the same here. For those of us who don’t want to do CC, there is absolutely nothing else. I was homeschooled and had not expected this—I still thought there were park days and informal gym classes and support groups. Nope.

 

Ds7 is very lonely. He’s going back to public school next week, and the obsession with CC is a big part of why.

 

I'm so sorry! I know at least in our small rural area that even though CC is very popular, there are other homeschoolers here. (I was surprised at how many--we have a relatively small support group, and someone started a FB group that has like 140 members now!). In my experience though, if you want things like park days to happen, you may need to be the instigator for awhile to help find others and get them involved. So, if you do ever decide to homeschool again, don't give up hope! There may be others out there who don't know anyone to connect to but would like to! I hope your son has a good spring at ps.

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preying on insecurities....(but that is not restricted to CC. It seems to be a homeschool marketing strategy.)

It's a strategy for marketing to women.

 

Eta: Ring around the collar! Some if you will remember the old Wisk detergent commercials shaming the woman for her husband having a dingy shirt with "ring around the collar."

Edited by Sandwalker
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I'm just wondering how this "CC Brand Ambassador" program holds up in the face of the Fair Labor and Standards Act (FLSA). Google "FLSA volunteer for-profit". In that search an article pops up warning about a for-profit company using volunteers that was published by the very law firm CC retained to write and send the threat letter I received from the law firm on behalf of CC. I have that lawyer's email address, and I want to ask her about this. Would that be crazy?

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Brand ambassadors once again prove that CC is a ministry where you work for free in the lower levels and a multi million dollar business where you desire large profits in the upper levels.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Edited by bethben
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Seems to be the only way to break into the Christian homeschool community here. Which is sad, because that feels like buying community

Same thing here. We are trying it this year because dd’s friends are there. She would be out of the loop with them if she didn’t attend. But yeah, $1200 for some friends is a little steep.

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It is the same here. For those of us who don’t want to do CC, there is absolutely nothing else. I was homeschooled and had not expected this—I still thought there were park days and informal gym classes and support groups. Nope.

 

Ds7 is very lonely. He’s going back to public school next week, and the obsession with CC is a big part of why.

I am so sorry! Age 7, 2nd grade, was when we found our first co-op to join, and it made all of the difference. Before that we were able to find a homeschool scout troop for dds. From there, since all were homeschooled, we learned of other things going on like the co-op. And from the co-op we have had friends, groups, activities, other co-ops and such for all of our years of hsing. I know that we needed that for dd7 at the time, and my younger was then k age, and has never homeschooled without co-op.  We had been in a hs field trip group prior to the scout troop, but never made real connections there. We tried every park day I could find, and hadn't made connections either. I was afraid we never would, but we eventually did.  I hope your right fit is right around the corner too. 

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I experience it as a way to homeschool with a little bit of structure, and a ready made opportunity to meet other families. If I could homeschool WITHOUT it, I probably would?  :gnorsi:

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Seems to be the only way to break into the Christian homeschool community here. Which is sad, because that feels like buying community

Yes. Here too and it’s sad. It is now the only option in a huge radius. It has become cultish and although the members we met (yes we tried it this year for two months and I died a little inside each week on community day until pulling the plug- what a waste.) were very nice, they mind-blowingly uninformed about homeschooling options in general and anything outside of CC was viewed as sacrilege. They also seemed under the impression there was no way to do it alone. Your kids wouldn’t be educated if you didn’t use the CC method. I also found it odd that so many of the mothers had to be tutors because they were stretched financially to the ends to even join. They didn’t realize they could do the same thing for free with these friends they had made and not pay CC thousands a year. It should be a massive red flag that the majority of mothers were tutors- I’m wondering how long our area can support such a massive amount of CC communities.

 

CC is sponsoring GHC’s Classical track this year which made me want to throw up. I was looking forward to going but not anymore. We’re going to skip this year and I’ll try to find CiRCE conferences to fill the encouragement bank. Leigh might be a perfectly nice woman on some things but I’m over seeing women ride on the backs of struggling stay at home Moms with this MLM crap.

 

Sorry. That turned into a rant.

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Yes. Here too and it’s sad. It is now the only option in a huge radius. It has become cultish and although the members we met (yes we tried it this year for two months and I died a little inside each week on community day until pulling the plug- what a waste.) were very nice, they mind-blowingly uninformed about homeschooling options in general and anything outside of CC was viewed as sacrilege. They also seemed under the impression there was no way to do it alone. Your kids wouldn’t be educated if you didn’t use the CC method. I also found it odd that so many of the mothers had to be tutors because they were stretched financially to the ends to even join. They didn’t realize they could do the same thing for free with these friends they had made and not pay CC thousands a year. It should be a massive red flag that the majority of mothers were tutors- I’m wondering how long our area can support such a massive amount of CC communities.

 

CC is sponsoring GHC’s Classical track this year which made me want to throw up. I was looking forward to going but not anymore. We’re going to skip this year and I’ll try to find CiRCE conferences to fill the encouragement bank. Leigh might be a perfectly nice woman on some things but I’m over seeing women ride on the backs of struggling stay at home Moms with this MLM crap.

 

Sorry. That turned into a rant.

^^^ITA. This is our first year, too. After many years of homeschooling without it. There are aspects about it that I like, but academically we don’t need it. We’re only in for community, and it does seem like a high price to pay for community. But, it’s the first year my dd isn’t feeling lonely.

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I experience it as a way to homeschool with a little bit of structure, and a ready made opportunity to meet other families. If I could homeschool WITHOUT it, I probably would? :gnorsi:

Yes. Here too and it’s sad. It is now the only option in a huge radius. It has become cultish and although the members we met (yes we tried it this year for two months and I died a little inside each week on community day until pulling the plug- what a waste.) were very nice, they mind-blowingly uninformed about homeschooling options in general and anything outside of CC was viewed as sacrilege. They also seemed under the impression there was no way to do it alone. Your kids wouldn’t be educated if you didn’t use the CC method. I also found it odd that so many of the mothers had to be tutors because they were stretched financially to the ends to even join. They didn’t realize they could do the same thing for free with these friends they had made and not pay CC thousands a year. It should be a massive red flag that the majority of mothers were tutors- I’m wondering how long our area can support such a massive amount of CC communities.

 

CC is sponsoring GHC’s Classical track this year which made me want to throw up. I was looking forward to going but not anymore. We’re going to skip this year and I’ll try to find CiRCE conferences to fill the encouragement bank. Leigh might be a perfectly nice woman on some things but I’m over seeing women ride on the backs of struggling stay at home Moms with this MLM crap.

 

Sorry. That turned into a rant.

^^^ITA. This is our first year, too. After many years of homeschooling without it. There are aspects about it that I like, but academically we don’t need it. We’re only in for community, and it does seem like a high price to pay for community. But, it’s the first year my dd isn’t feeling lonely.

This all makes me so sad. Surely this is not why we decided to homeschool. This is why I believe CC is truly harming the homeschool community at large. It's sucking up resources - creating a monopoly. Don't even get me started on the rigid legalism. How much better is this really than public school? We trade the government for one "right way" to homeschool with "Christian" slapped onto the description. Much of what I saw in my years at CC was anything but Christian.

Edited by Loolamay
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CC is sponsoring GHC’s Classical track this year which made me want to throw up. I was looking forward to going but not anymore. We’re going to skip this year and I’ll try to find CiRCE conferences to fill the encouragement bank. Leigh might be a perfectly nice woman on some things but I’m over seeing women ride on the backs of struggling stay at home Moms with this MLM crap.

 

Sorry. That turned into a rant.

 

I saw that as well. I was considering attending this year. I haven't been to a homeschool conference in 9 years!!!

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They also seemed under the impression there was no way to do it alone. Your kids wouldn’t be educated if you didn’t use the CC method.

 

CC is sponsoring GHC’s Classical track this year which made me want to throw up. I was looking forward to going but not anymore. We’re going to skip this year and I’ll try to find CiRCE conferences to fill the encouragement bank. Leigh might be a perfectly nice woman on some things but I’m over seeing women ride on the backs of struggling stay at home Moms with this MLM crap.

 

Couldn't agree more!

 

It's incredibly ironic that CC outwardly states that the whole purpose of having moms tutor is to "show other moms how they CAN do this at home," but the unspoken message in their advertising is that home schoolers NEED CC for the "rigor" (ha) and structure that it provides.

 

I, too, was utterly disappointed that GHC is touting CC as "sponsoring" the classical ed track at the conferences. Yet another example of the fact that  Bortins is nothing if not a business woman. She hitches her CC wagon to anyone willing to have her, preferably the most successful/popular other programs out there. (IEW, Circe's LToW, now GHC,...)

 

As a pp pointed out, CC is a ministry at the grassroots level (the individual campuses), and a money making focused business at the corporate level. I'm all for capitalism and entrepreneurship, but when they cloak themselves in being first and foremost a "Christian" organization led by someone who "has a heart for homeschoolers" and turn around and use tactics that are anything but "Christian," it isn't a business I want to support.

 

 

ETA: I should add that I absolutely agree that the community aspect of it is valuable and fills a deep need for many families! It did for us for two years! The local communities I've seen have been wonderful. It's only the corporate side and its tactics that I have real concerns about, not the local communities.

Edited by yvonne
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You know the CC logo? “To know God and make Him known� That’s the Youth With A Mission mission statement and has been since the 1960s. A group of actual missionaries that actually makes God known. If you follow CC in the younger grades, a director has to purposely add in the Christian aspect (per the guide, but not included in daily memory work) because at least in the former years, memory work/Christian worldview stuff is very much absent. Again, trying to make people feel like it’s a ministry at the lower level.

 

I know CC fills a need for many homeschoolers. Much like Tupperware gave a bunch of moms a part time job. But like Tupperware, the real money was made at the top levels. I just want to call a spade a spade.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Edited by bethben
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This all makes me so sad. Surely this is not why we decided to homeschool. This is why I believe CC is truly harming the homeschool community at large. It's sucking up resources - creating a monopoly. Don't even get me started on the rigid legalism. How much better is this really than public school? We trade the government for one "right way" to homeschool with "Christian" slapped onto the description. Much of what I saw in my years at CC was anything but Christian.

Looking at it from this standpoint, I’d say it’s academically worse. At least public schools have trained teachers.

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Looking at it from this standpoint, I’d say it’s academically worse. At least public schools have trained teachers.

From what I saw a lot of the Moms are on the fast track back to public school anyway due to overwhelm. I saw so much self doubt in young Moms who were frustrated that their 5 and 6 year olds couldn’t memorize the weekly work and acted out in class because (in my opinion) they were reacting to the crazy pace and massive amount of completely random info. And the Moms were wondering what they were doing wrong. There was no one in the “tutor†role telling them that it wasn’t necessary and might not be a good idea to force this on a kindergartener- perhaps go read some picture books and quit worrying about memorizing the Timeline song in its entirety (by Christmas break so your kids look extra smart!). The pressure they put on their kids and themselves was insane. Everything was so rushed. And so completely age inappropriate. I’m not sure if the concept has become perverted from the original plan or what, but something is terribly off.

 

That all said, I still tried it. And if I could get sucked in to trying it (without a preview class), I see how a new homeschooler easily could. Even after hanging out for years here, and reading these threads. But my kids were desperate for a routine time with friends after our old group dissolved and CC is the only game in town now with regular attendees and meeting times, and I caved. I figured “how bad could it really be?†We can just ignore the weekly work, do our own thing, and get to enjoy the community day. Well I found out I’m an idiot. There’s no way you can go in with that mindset. You don’t get to play in Jonestown and not drink the kool aid. We didn’t fit in at all- my dh said because I immediately threw off the vibe that I wasn’t buying into the whole deal. It was just ridiculous. And I don’t like kids being used like show ponies. It was a $1,000 mistake. But I learned to trust my gut (and warning threads here) and not to think I could overlook an organization I had fundamental issues with to give my kids time with (bought) friends. I know some people are devout fans, but where we were, I couldn’t help thinking it was far more about the Mothers’ egos and insecurities than anything about what was age or developmentally appropriate (and healthy) for kids.

 

And Challenge? Although we didn’t do that, listening to the Moms discuss it (and the price) all I kept thinking was “you do know you can do this cheaper, with 100x higher caliber instructors and course content on your own, right?†But nope. It’s like no one had even Googled homeschooling. Maybe we joined a particular sheltered group, but seriously. It was mind boggling.

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From what I saw a lot of the Moms are on the fast track back to public school anyway due to overwhelm. I saw so much self doubt in young Moms who were frustrated that their 5 and 6 year olds couldn’t memorize the weekly work and acted out in class because (in my opinion) they were reacting to the crazy pace and massive amount of completely random info. And the Moms were wondering what they were doing wrong. There was no one in the “tutor†role telling them that it wasn’t necessary and might not be a good idea to force this on a kindergartener- perhaps go read some picture books and quit worrying about memorizing the Timeline song in its entirety (by Christmas break so your kids look extra smart!). The pressure they put on their kids and themselves was insane. Everything was so rushed. And so completely age inappropriate. I’m not sure if the concept has become perverted from the original plan or what, but something is terribly off.

 

That all said, I still tried it. And if I could get sucked in to trying it (without a preview class), I see how a new homeschooler easily could. Even after hanging out for years here, and reading these threads. But my kids were desperate for a routine time with friends after our old group dissolved and CC is the only game in town now with regular attendees and meeting times, and I caved. I figured “how bad could it really be?†We can just ignore the weekly work, do our own thing, and get to enjoy the community day. Well I found out I’m an idiot. There’s no way you can go in with that mindset. You don’t get to play in Jonestown and not drink the kool aid. We didn’t fit in at all- my dh said because I immediately threw off the vibe that I wasn’t buying into the whole deal. It was just ridiculous. And I don’t like kids being used like show ponies. It was a $1,000 mistake. But I learned to trust my gut (and warning threads here) and not to think I could overlook an organization I had fundamental issues with to give my kids time with (bought) friends. I know some people are devout fans, but where we were, I couldn’t help thinking it was far more about the Mothers’ egos and insecurities than anything about what was age or developmentally appropriate (and healthy) for kids.

 

And Challenge? Although we didn’t do that, listening to the Moms discuss it (and the price) all I kept thinking was “you do know you can do this cheaper, with 100x higher caliber instructors and course content on your own, right?†But nope. It’s like no one had even Googled homeschooling. Maybe we joined a particular sheltered group, but seriously. It was mind boggling.

 

I know many people who think it is the only way to classically educate their child. It infuriates me.

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I know many people who think it is the only way to classically educate their child. It infuriates me.

 

 

That's pretty much the gig here. It's so frustrating to have to tell ladies who are considering moving to our little valley that the only game in town is CC. If you're not CC, you'e not welcome. And the "have to have all your kids in the program is you're a director" thing? Not here. Our director has one in ps! She's too busy running her business to hs him. 

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Looking at it from this standpoint, I’d say it’s academically worse. At least public schools have trained teachers.

How academically sound it is has been discussed ad nauseam over the last several pages.

 

Surely you're not suggesting that college-trained teachers are necessary in order to provide a good education? If a teaching degree is necessary to educate children, why are we even on a homeschooling board?

 

I have my own issues with CC, and we won't be returning next year. However, I think it's sad to see a homeschooling mom insinuate that a teaching degree is necessary in order to teach one's child.

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I have my own issues with CC, and we won't be returning next year. However, I think it's sad to see a homeschooling mom insinuate that a teaching degree is necessary in order to teach one's child.

 

I am in agreement with HSmomof2 when it comes to classes.  It has nothing to do with a teaching degree and everything to do with training - a lot of which comes after a degree.  I seek out my own training in classroom management, teaching strategies, and child development.  Not many hs moms I know in real life do the same.  It's a lot more focus on plug-n-play curriculum.

 

I don't think CC adequately trains their "tutors".  I don't see any training, really, other than a very brief initial training to be familiar with the material.  I'm not going to pay for that.  What I do pay for when it comes to my own kid's classes has to do with how confident I am in the teacher's abilities.  I send my kid to p.e. because the woman who teaches it has sought out her own training and is darn good at what she does.  She has a focus and knows how to adapt and maintain control of a classroom while keeping the kids engaged and on task.

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I am in agreement with HSmomof2 when it comes to classes. It has nothing to do with a teaching degree and everything to do with training - a lot of which comes after a degree. I seek out my own training in classroom management, teaching strategies, and child development. Not many hs moms I know in real life do the same. It's a lot more focus on plug-n-play curriculum.

 

I don't think CC adequately trains their "tutors". I don't see any training, really, other than a very brief initial training to be familiar with the material. I'm not going to pay for that. What I do pay for when it comes to my own kid's classes has to do with how confident I am in the teacher's abilities. I send my kid to p.e. because the woman who teaches it has sought out her own training and is darn good at what she does. She has a focus and knows how to adapt and maintain control of a classroom while keeping the kids engaged and on task.

I agree with you and HSmomof2. I didn't think she's was saying you have to have a teaching degree to teach your own kids, but to teach other people's children effectively in a group setting requires some decent training. My CC trainer was considered one of the best in my state and yet I walked out of training with a LOT of knowledge about CC policies (enough that I knew I didn't want to sign a contract), how to draw my board with God in the center, and a few ideas for memory review games. That's. It. I was asked on my first day as a tutor by a new mom how God was at the center of CC's Foundations curriculum and all I had was, "Um. All knowledge comes from God." I also found out that the year after I tutored they started making tutors sign a non-disclosure agreement before they could even enter a tutoring room. I guess to get rid of pesky situations like me where I did tutor for my director but I didn't sign any of CC's gag orders so now they can't threaten me with being bound by an NDA that specifically mentions "discussions" about CC business.

 

Just pull off any wool over your eyes, anyone reading this. Nearly an entire workforce of "independent contractors", an multi-level marketing hierarchy but the company claims to NOT be an MLM, completely monopolizing the Christian homeschooling scene in entire areas, and now actively recruiting unpaid volunteers for a for-profit corporation. Does *any* of that read "love for the Christian homeschooling community" more than "love for money" to you??

Edited by Loolamay
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From what I saw a lot of the Moms are on the fast track back to public school anyway due to overwhelm. I saw so much self doubt in young Moms who were frustrated that their 5 and 6 year olds couldn’t memorize the weekly work and acted out in class because (in my opinion) they were reacting to the crazy pace and massive amount of completely random info. And the Moms were wondering what they were doing wrong. There was no one in the “tutor†role telling them that it wasn’t necessary and might not be a good idea to force this on a kindergartener- perhaps go read some picture books and quit worrying about memorizing the Timeline song in its entirety (by Christmas break so your kids look extra smart!). The pressure they put on their kids and themselves was insane. Everything was so rushed. And so completely age inappropriate. I’m not sure if the concept has become perverted from the original plan or what, but something is terribly off.

 

That all said, I still tried it. And if I could get sucked in to trying it (without a preview class), I see how a new homeschooler easily could. Even after hanging out for years here, and reading these threads. But my kids were desperate for a routine time with friends after our old group dissolved and CC is the only game in town now with regular attendees and meeting times, and I caved. I figured “how bad could it really be?†We can just ignore the weekly work, do our own thing, and get to enjoy the community day. Well I found out I’m an idiot. There’s no way you can go in with that mindset. You don’t get to play in Jonestown and not drink the kool aid. We didn’t fit in at all- my dh said because I immediately threw off the vibe that I wasn’t buying into the whole deal. It was just ridiculous. And I don’t like kids being used like show ponies. It was a $1,000 mistake. But I learned to trust my gut (and warning threads here) and not to think I could overlook an organization I had fundamental issues with to give my kids time with (bought) friends. I know some people are devout fans, but where we were, I couldn’t help thinking it was far more about the Mothers’ egos and insecurities than anything about what was age or developmentally appropriate (and healthy) for kids.

 

And Challenge? Although we didn’t do that, listening to the Moms discuss it (and the price) all I kept thinking was “you do know you can do this cheaper, with 100x higher caliber instructors and course content on your own, right?†But nope. It’s like no one had even Googled homeschooling. Maybe we joined a particular sheltered group, but seriously. It was mind boggling.

We had some different experiences, but it ends up boiling down to the same thing.

 

Our tutors are really good about repeatedly telling families to do what works and that kids will go through the cycles more than once. Basically, don't stress over it. My youngest can sing the timeline; my oldest can't. Whatever. My oldest was still able to tell someone that Napoleon was in power around the same time as the Lewis & Clark expedition.

 

At the same time, my oldest will be Challenge age sooner rather than later. Where it's emphasized that mom is the teacher rather than the tutor, many of our challenge moms are feeling lost. They don't know how to help because, at the end of the day, they're not really the ones doing a lot of the teaching.

 

Plus, it's so expensive. It's just too expensive for what you get. I can do it better, more tailored to my kids, and cheaper at home. We'd considered just doing CC at home, but honestly there's stuff out there that is a better fit. We've been using it as a supplement, and we're getting to the point where we've outgrown it.

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How academically sound it is has been discussed ad nauseam over the last several pages.

 

Surely you're not suggesting that college-trained teachers are necessary in order to provide a good education? If a teaching degree is necessary to educate children, why are we even on a homeschooling board?

 

I have my own issues with CC, and we won't be returning next year. However, I think it's sad to see a homeschooling mom insinuate that a teaching degree is necessary in order to teach one's child.

Of course I’m not saying or insinuating that a teaching certificate is required to do a good job teaching one’s child. Not at all. I’m sorry if it sounded that way. I absolutely do not think that. What I am referring to, and I’m talking about Challenge/high school level, is that most CC tutors are not equivalentally trained in the subject areas they are “teaching/tutoring†as public high school teachers. I’m sure some are. I’m also not comparing a parent teaching their own child and learning together. That’s a different scenario altogether.

 

ETA: what I am seeing at CC in Challenge, are parents relying on the tutors to teach the subjects, and the kids working on their own. I know that’s not what CC intends, but it is what I see happening in our community. The parents are overwhelmed by the subjects and amount of work and simply don’t have the time required to learn Latin, Logic, etc. with their students and teach younger siblings as well.

Edited by HSmomof2
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Of course I’m not saying or insinuating that a teaching certificate is required to do a good job teaching one’s child. Not at all. What I am referring to, and I’m talking about Challenge/high school level, is that most CC tutors are not equivalentally trained in the subject areas they are “teaching/tutoring†as public high school teachers. I’m sure some are, and I’m also not comparing a parent teaching their own child and learning together. That’s a different scenario altogether.

I would agree with the above. No one tutor can be excellent at all the subjects they are supposed to teach. I went to college and became a secondary math education major. I had to have a math degree as well as an education emphasis. No way is every CC tutor going to be that well trained in every subject. The reason CC even exists in the upper grade is that homeschool moms realize there is no way they can teach all high school subjects well. CC challenge levels are supposed to be a “learning together†thing anyway from what I understand.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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I would agree with the above. No one tutor can be excellent at all the subjects they are supposed to teach. I went to college and became a secondary math education major. I had to have a math degree as well as an education emphasis. No way is every CC tutor going to be that well trained in every subject. The reason CC even exists in the upper grade is that homeschool moms realize there is no way they can teach all high school subjects well. CC challenge levels are supposed to be a “learning together†thing anyway from what I understand.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Exactly. And at least in our community, it’s the ‘learning together’ that is not happening. And some of the students are really floundering on their own. I’d rather spend the money I’d spend on CC and get 2-3 subjects outsourced by more qualified teachers (foreign language, lab science, etc.), so I can focus on teaching the subjects I’m better at (English, history, etc.). What I can’t provide, however, is the community part. That’s the primary benefit CC has provided dd this year. But $1200+ is a lot to pay for community.😟 I miss the days of the regular co-op where parents got together and taught what they know and love. Once CC moved in, those co-ops all dissolved within about 3-4 years.

 

ETA: I am not saying our tutors are not doing the best they can. They are putting a lot of time and effort into it. But, they are learning the subjects with the students. They see the students struggling and try to help where they can. They keep reminding the parents that the parents are the teachers. I’ve been able to learn along with dc. But, if I had multiple younger children to care for and teach as well, there is no way I would have been able to keep up with their work. CC could change some of their policies to improve this—by letting multiple people teach Challenge subjects, so they could become experts in their subjects, for example. But, that would cut into the MLM aspect of the business I suppose.ðŸ˜

Edited by HSmomof2
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