Is classical conversations a cult..or product..or..

[8filltheheart]

??? I think those other communities (cottage schools/university model schools) existed long before CC.

[yvonne]

Those models for education existed long before CC; the communities I mentioned (MP, CAP) did not.

 

There's a difference in feel/philosophy between a "school" and a "community."  Perhaps the biggest is the involvement of parents and families in a "community" vs the drop-them-at-the-door approach of a typical university model or brick & mortar school. 

 

It probably all looks the same from the outside, if one has never been involved with a small group of families with the same desires/goals whose children enjoy learning together.

 

 

Edited July 3, 2017 by yvonne

[EmilyGF]

??? I think those other communities (cottage schools/university model schools) existed long before CC.

CC is open and go and maintains a list of people interested in your area. It provides something for people to rally around. It provides an open and go curriculum with very few decisions to make.

Her'es what happened for my sister: 

 

She moved to a new area with young kids where she knew no one and went to a church, not near her house, where no one homeschooled and she experienced some level of culture shock.

 

Within a matter of weeks she was able to find people interested in CC, get "trained", get materials, and start a "community." She had very little planning to do (she could even have bought prepared craft kits). I think the hardest part for her was figuring out the insurance rider for the location they met at. It was very much plug and play with a group already rounded up (she contacted people who had expressed interest but not been willing to be directors and did no other recruiting).

 

These new national networks (MP, Schole, Charlotte Mason in Community) are providing better materials, more flexibility, and new rallying points. I think that's a good thing that wasn't addressed before. I don't think they've figured out the perfect formula yet, but I'm excited by all the work that is being done. I do think the vast majority of people homeschool better with some level of accountability (man, I loved being required to do exams for the Alveary this year) and I'm glad there are better options springing up to offer that at some level or another in ways that are easy to implement.

 

Emily

[yvonne]

CC is open and go

 

<snip bec I don't know how to do multi-quotes even after all these years!>

 

These new national networks (MP, Schole, Charlotte Mason in Community) are providing better materials, more flexibility, and new rallying points. I think that's a good thing that wasn't addressed before. I don't think they've figured out the perfect formula yet, but I'm excited by all the work that is being done.

 

Yes! Me, too!  As CC directors & parents age out of CC bec their kids have graduated high school, I think we'll see some of the really dedicated, passionate ones look to help new home schoolers create the sort of communities they wish they'd had when their kids were young. When your kids are young, you just do not have much time to spend beyond doing what you specifically need to do that day or that week or that year. It isn't until your children get older and go off to college or start taking some outside high school courses that you have time to really look back at the big picture & think about what you'd do differently. (At least that was my experience.) The possibilities are exciting! 

 

i don't think I'd say the majority of home schoolers need outside accountability. It can be nice for some of us, though.

 

There are tons of options out there for home schoolers..... live online classes, async online classes, community college classes, university classes, live local classes, part time at the local public school (in some states), local workshops put on by different hobby/professional groups,....   Each family has their own, specific needs/goals/desires. The great thing about home schooling is that each family can pick and choose from all the available options to meet their own particular needs. Some families successfully home school their children without using any of those outside resources at all.  I don't think there is any one model that could be held up as the best single solution.

 

Edited July 3, 2017 by yvonne

[Lang Syne Boardie]

Yvonne, I understand what you're saying, but your post is another reminder that old schoolers aren't going to have anyone asking us how we did it - not when the answer is that we had no coops and emphatically did not want them (especially for elementary).

 

I really wonder whether traditional hs'ing will be popular, or even known, in the future. I don't care as much as I used to, but I do still worry about the special needs students and other outliers who will always need one one on tutoring and extreme flexibility. Will their parents recognize the hs'ing option, and be able to find resources and support in the age of CC, UMS, Schole groups, Tapestry coops, et cetera?

Edited July 3, 2017 by Tibbie Dunbar

[8filltheheart]

Yes! Me, too! As CC directors & parents age out of CC bec their kids have graduated high school, I think we'll see some of the really dedicated, passionate ones look to help new home schoolers create the sort of communities they wish they'd had when their kids were young. When your kids are young, you just do not have much time to spend beyond doing what you specifically need to do that day or that week or that year. It isn't until your children get older and go off to college or start taking some outside high school courses that you have time to really look back at the big picture & think about what you'd do differently. (At least that was my experience.) The possibilities are exciting! ..

Or get to have multiple re-dos with younger siblings.:)

 

i don't think I'd say the majority of home schoolers need outside accountability. It can be nice for some of us, though.

 

There are tons of options out there for home schoolers..... live online classes, async online classes, community college classes, university classes, live local classes, part time at the local public school (in some states), local workshops put on by different hobby/professional groups,.... Each family has their own, specific needs/goals/desires. The great thing about home schooling is that each family can pick and choose from all the available options to meet their own particular needs. Some families successfully home school their children without using any of those outside resources at all. I don't think there is any one model that could be held up as the best single solution.

 

I agree. I absolutely would resent outside accountability. We move a lot but I have refused to move to places with high regulations specifically bc I want to do things my way. It is why I homeschool. I fully understand and appreciate that others like outsourcing, but I equally want parents who desire to do it on their own to be affirmed that they can succeed without outsourcing and colleges will accept their kids without outsourced classes. Edited July 3, 2017 by 8FillTheHeart

[8filltheheart]

Yvonne, I understand what you're saying, but your post is another reminder that old schoolers aren't going to have anyone asking us how we did it - not when the answer is that we had no coops and emphatically did not want them (especially for elementary).

 

I really wonder whether traditional hs'ing will be popular, or even known, in the future. I don't care as much as I used to, but I do still worry about the special needs students and other outliers who will always need one one on tutoring and extreme flexibility. Will their parents recognize the hs'ing option, and be able to find resources and support in the age of CC, UMS, Schole groups, Tapestry coops, et cetera?

I was pecking on my phone when you posted. I agree. I do worry about it bc I am still in the thick of it since I still have a young child. I feel like I have witnessed homeschooling do a complete flip since I started. I agree that homeschooling at home might become obsolete in the future.

[lots of little ducklings]

Yvonne, I understand what you're saying, but your post is another reminder that old schoolers aren't going to have anyone asking us how we did it - not when the answer is that we had no coops and emphatically did not want them (especially for elementary).

 

I really wonder whether traditional hs'ing will be popular, or even known, in the future. I don't care as much as I used to, but I do still worry about the special needs students and other outliers who will always need one one on tutoring and extreme flexibility. Will their parents recognize the hs'ing option, and be able to find resources and support in the age of CC, UMS, Schole groups, Tapestry coops, et cetera?

 

Hmmm... as a CC'er (Foundations level only, to this point), I definitely consider myself a "traditional" homeschooler.  Perhaps even more so than the generation before me (at my church) who built a large and thriving co-op of their own. 

 

CC is (currently) my "spine" for memory work, plus half-a-day with like-minded homeschooling families.

 

Otherwise, I think my home probably looks a lot like yours?  I do my own history, language arts, math, foreign languages, science.... and all of them are resources I've chosen myself -- not boxed -- to tailor to my kids' needs, including one child with learning challenges.  

 

 

I do agree that many support/community options are available today, and that many of them look very different from "old school" homeschooling.   But in light of this being a CC thread, I thought I'd give a little perspective on what CC, specifically, is like.  My experience is limited to Foundations so far, but if we were to continue with CC beyond that, I'd only do it on the condition that I maintain control over their schooling and can adapt the program to meet each of my kids' needs.  

[8filltheheart]

Hmmm... as a CC'er (Foundations level only, to this point), I definitely consider myself a "traditional" homeschooler. Perhaps even more so than the generation before me (at my church) who built a large and thriving co-op of their own.

 

CC is (currently) my "spine" for memory work, plus half-a-day with like-minded homeschooling families.

 

Otherwise, I think my home probably looks a lot like yours? I do my own history, language arts, math, foreign languages, science.... and all of them are resources I've chosen myself -- not boxed -- to tailor to my kids' needs, including one child with learning challenges.

 

 

I do agree that many support/community options are available today, and that many of them look very different from "old school" homeschooling. But in light of this being a CC thread, I thought I'd give a little perspective on what CC, specifically, is like. My experience is limited to Foundations so far, but if we were to continue with CC beyond that, I'd only do it on the condition that I maintain control over their schooling and can adapt the program to meet each of my kids' needs.

I am not sure how that would work when they are inflexible about progression in math, etc. Would you have/pay for a child who did alg at age 10 (to) sit in an alg class in 9th grade? Or a student in Latin 4 in Latin 1? Or ready for chem/physics in physical science? Edited July 3, 2017 by 8FillTheHeart

[yvonne]

Yvonne, I understand what you're saying, but your post is another reminder that old schoolers aren't going to have anyone asking us how we did it - not when the answer is that we had no coops and emphatically did not want them (especially for elementary).

 

I really wonder whether traditional hs'ing will be popular, or even known, in the future. I don't care as much as I used to, but I do still worry about the special needs students and other outliers who will always need one one on tutoring and extreme flexibility. Will their parents recognize the hs'ing option, and be able to find resources and support in the age of CC, UMS, Schole groups, Tapestry coops,etc?l

 

I don't know if that's the case, though, Tibbie. Don't you think there will always be a variety of home schoolers out there who choose different paths? 

 

People who home school seem to be a very eclectic bunch. The range of approaches to home schooling is hugely varied.  As people home school over they years, they try different things. They find from experience that there are things they like and don't like, things they wish they'd done differently, things they'd love to try, things they could have done better, things they shouldn't have wasted their time on, etc.  The desire to do things better/differently inevitably drives the creation of new options. The "new" stuff may or may not pan out; we don't know until it's been used for a while.

 

I think there _will_ always be home schoolers who do things completely on their own (ie, no outside classes at all) and they _will_ look to those who have btdt for encouragement and advice. 

 

There will also be home schoolers who feel that there's something missing and who look for it in the available options. Sometimes those options can provide it. Sometimes the option does not provide it, and the parent tries something else that seems like a closer match or s/he tries to create the missing piece. Sometimes what the parent creates appeals to other, like-minded parents and it gathers momentum.  The new option fills a certain need that certain families are looking for, like CC does/did.

 

We home schoolers today owe a lot to the home schoolers who started out. However, I don't think that whatever might be considered the way "old schoolers" did it is necessarily _better_ simply because it's the "old" way of doing it, just as I don't consider the latest options (CC, CAP's Schole, MP's cottage schools, etc) to be _better_ simply because they're newer. Things seem to move like a pendulum.... Maybe home schooling is the same... Maybe it will always swing slowly back and forth between the two extremes of completely independent (no outside classes at all) and completely outsourced (all online/local classes.) 

 

I don't know. Everyone has to find their own way. I do know that nobody, "old schooler" or home schoolers using more recent options can say that their way is THE best or THE only way.

 

(ETA fixed formatting. Don't know why my paragraph breaks are always messed up!)

Edited July 3, 2017 by yvonne

[8filltheheart]

Yvonne, I don't know that I have met anyone IRL in the past 4 yrs who has homeschooled completely at home. We just moved again, so it will be interesting to see the dynamic here.

Edited July 3, 2017 by 8FillTheHeart

[Lang Syne Boardie]

It's not that we are concerned about superiority of our methods or conformity of newbies to our methods - it's been a LONG time since I ever thought I had all the answers for everybody - the concern is about whether a rather important niche in hs'ing is at risk of extinction.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

(Sorry about the lack of quotes and all the typos - desktop computer gave up the ghost and I can't operate this iPad as well! LOL)

[yvonne]

It's not that we are concerned about superiority of our methods or conformity of newbies to our methods - it's been a LONG time since I ever thought I had all the answers for everybody - the concern is about whether a rather important niche in hs'ing is at risk of extinction.

 

I do get & agree with that... that it really would be a loss of an important niche. I think it's important that those who've been able to do it completely on their own remain engaged w/ the home schooling world/forums so that they can pass on their experience to others looking to do it.

[yvonne]

Yvonne, I don't know that I have met anyone IRL in the past 4 yrs who has homeschooled completely at home. We just moved again, so it will be interesting to see the dynamic here.

 

Neither have I.  I'm not even sure if there's anyone on these boards who's home schooled completely at home, without using outside classes of some sort.  (I do know there are plenty of people who have not used co-ops/CC/community colleges/etc.)

[8filltheheart]

Neither have I. I'm not even sure if there's anyone on these boards who's home schooled completely at home, without using outside classes of some sort. (I do know there are plenty of people who have not used co-ops/CC/community colleges/etc.)

I would consider that today's definition of at home. ;)

[...................]

I hardly feel like a homeschooler. My older son is in community college and my dd goes to a math center for math, a one day academy and I'm only helping to follow up on especially writing assignments and give biology tests.

 

I'll be reading some material with my dd more

Becusde it would be lonely otherwise, than because it's really necessary.

[nixpix5]

It's not that we are concerned about superiority of our methods or conformity of newbies to our methods - it's been a LONG time since I ever thought I had all the answers for everybody - the concern is about whether a rather important niche in hs'ing is at risk of extinction.

This is interesting and something I hadn't considered. As families homeschooling continue to increase whether due to not wanting to utilize traditional schooling, special needs concerns, religious reasons etc I have often wondered if state regulations would start to clamp down more for control. One way they might do this is by increasing public school co-op style resources. We certainly have utilized this option. I prefer a full at home homeschool but our public school funded co-op here provides curriculum money and so many enrichment classes I definitely fell for it. However, they do have accountability hoops. We have to turn in monthly plans showing progress and we are not allowed to use religiously affiliated curriculum. I circumvent this stipulation by using whatever the heck I want and also supplementing with secular curriculum that I put in our progress updates. I think I chose this route because I fell victim to the mantra that my kids need a peer group or to be "socialized". Don't get me wrong, I love it. We use it 2 days per week but others use it one and some use it 4 days...I think it depends on how much handholding someone might want or need. The thing that gets me though is my kids are part of the public school. They would get their high diploma from this co-op and the school reports student outcomes as though they are responsible for it when in fact the parents do all of the work. I am not sure yet if I like that I don't have to deal with state hoops and they do it for me or if I am giving up some level of freedom and control. We don't use them for academic classes...just piano, theater, karate, cooking class etc. I am purposeful about wanting to keep that control over my kids academics. It is a slippery slope though. My daughter has already asked to enroll in the American Girl Hisotry class for the fall. Meh...I guess we will see as we go how much control I am willing to give over.

 

I will say though, when I was an undergrad I met two people in my science classes who I would hold as some of the most well put together, intelligent, logical, mature and all around great people I have ever met. Both had been homeschooled exclusively at home and college was their first step into a group educational setting. One I am still in contact with and she is a physician. It was due to them that I even considered homeschooling to begin with. I have seen those two girls as being examples of full at home homeschooling working well.

[TracyP]

Yvonne, I understand what you're saying, but your post is another reminder that old schoolers aren't going to have anyone asking us how we did it - not when the answer is that we had no coops and emphatically did not want them (especially for elementary).

 

I really wonder whether traditional hs'ing will be popular, or even known, in the future. I don't care as much as I used to, but I do still worry about the special needs students and other outliers who will always need one one on tutoring and extreme flexibility. Will their parents recognize the hs'ing option, and be able to find resources and support in the age of CC, UMS, Schole groups, Tapestry coops, et cetera?

 

I sometimes wonder that too - if there will be any such thing as homeschooling w/o outside classes in the future. Watching the trends on this board over the last few years makes it seem like "old schoolers" are definitely going the way of the dinosaur....

 

In my real life, however, I know 3 kids who graduated over the last 2 yrs with no outside classes. I semi-regularly see 8 other homeschooling families at open gym. Not one of them is outsourcing at all before high school. At the high school level, 0-2 classes are being outsourced per year. We are rural here, so I'm sure that makes a big difference. But when I look locally, I don't think the traditional form of homeschooling is going anywhere.

 

So which one is the more accurate representation of homeschoolers? I don't know. I sure hope that traditional homeschooling isn't going away. I hope that this move toward more outsourcing is giving more options to parents who feel like they don't have many. I do feel a certain pressure on this forum, though, that outsourcing is something parents *must* do at some point. Ugh. I hope that doesn't become the new normal.

[...................]

This is one of those threads that will never die :)

[8filltheheart]

 I hope that this move toward more outsourcing is giving more options to parents who feel like they don't have many. I do feel a certain pressure on this forum, though, that outsourcing is something parents *must* do at some point. Ugh. I hope that doesn't become the new normal.

 

My dd who will be leaving for college in a few weeks and will be attending on full scholarship has never stepped foot inside of a classroom.  She took an online DE stats class this spring and had a 100 avg.  :001_rolleyes:  FWIW, I am not worried about her at all and she has signed up for 300 and 400 level classes.  :001_cool:

This is one of those threads that will never die :)

 

Maybe that is a good thing.  :D  Maybe it is an encouragement to parents who are preyed on and plagued with doubts. 

[...................]

My dd who will be leaving for college in a few weeks and will be attending on full scholarship has never stepped foot inside of a classroom. She took an online DE stats class this spring and had a 100 avg. :001_rolleyes: FWIW, I am not worried about her at all and she has signed up for 300 and 400 level classes. :001_cool:

 

Maybe that is a good thing. :D Maybe it is an encouragement to parents who are preyed on and plagued with doubts.

Agree. We outsource for my dd because she's an extrovert and her brother is going to be away more, and we happen to have great opportunities. It's not necessary especially in the case of CC Challenge.

[lots of little ducklings]

I am not sure how that would work when they are inflexible about progression in math, etc. Would you have/pay for a child who did alg at age 10 (to) sit in an alg class in 9th grade? Or a student in Latin 4 in Latin 1? Or ready for chem/physics in physical science?

 

No, I personally wouldn't, unless the child was an extrovert and really wanted to exercise their skills in rhetoric (CC Challenge focuses on this aspect of math, which allows parents some flexibility in the grade level and program for Math that they use at home).  That said, Challenge is more than just mathematics.  So if my child loved discussing the classics with groups but was ahead/behind in science?  Maybe it would be worth it.  Thankfully I'm not there yet.   :hat:  The cost of Challenge is prohibitive, and it does dictate the rest of your homeschooling week far more than Foundations/Essentials, so it may not be for me.  

 

But again, CC really is parent-led (hence, the complaints about "unqualified" tutors as compared with online courses and such). So, yes.... you may not have an astrophysicist guiding your child's Challenge-level science discussion, but on the upside you'll be more actively involved in your child's learning than those who outsource to experts.   Which means, I think, that you'll be more likely to reap the benefits of a home education.  

[Artichoke]

My dd who will be leaving for college in a few weeks and will be attending on full scholarship has never stepped foot inside of a classroom.  She took an online DE stats class this spring and had a 100 avg.  :001_rolleyes:  FWIW, I am not worried about her at all and she has signed up for 300 and 400 level classes.  :001_cool:

 

Maybe that is a good thing.  :D  Maybe it is an encouragement to parents who are preyed on and plagued with doubts. 

 

 

Bunny trail alert! 

 

Could you elaborate on being able to take level 300 and 400 classes?  Did you do CLEPs, or placement tests, or something else?   That's awesome  that she can take these classes so soon. 

[...................]

No, I personally wouldn't, unless the child was an extrovert and really wanted to exercise their skills in rhetoric (CC Challenge focuses on this aspect of math, which allows parents some flexibility in the grade level and program for Math that they use at home). That said, Challenge is more than just mathematics. So if my child loved discussing the classics with groups but was ahead/behind in science? Maybe it would be worth it. Thankfully I'm not there yet. :hat: The cost of Challenge is prohibitive, and it does dictate the rest of your homeschooling week far more than Foundations/Essentials, so it may not be for me.

 

But again, CC really is parent-led (hence, the complaints about "unqualified" tutors as compared with online courses and such). So, yes.... you may not have an astrophysicist guiding your child's Challenge-level science discussion, but on the upside you'll be more actively involved in your child's learning than those who outsource to experts. Which means, I think, that you'll be more likely to reap the benefits of a home education.

This is true, with paid experts teaching it's very tempting to let the child take the class, learn the material and earn a grade with very little parent interaction unless the parent has a desire or the student needs help..

 

It's not really homeschooling, it's outsource-schooling...

[eternalsummer]

When the child has outpaced my knowledge or skill in a certain area, I move to more of a facilitator role (although we only do online classes, as there is nothing suitable IRL here).  I didn't take math past Calc BC (I didn't take any at all in college) and I doubt I could really teach past Alg. 2 with any hope of success.  I have never taken Latin and never plan to learn it.

[meganrussell]

Yvonne, I don't know that I have met anyone IRL in the past 4 yrs who has homeschooled completely at home. We just moved again, so it will be interesting to see the dynamic here.

We have always homeschooled at home. We have never been part of a co-op or CC or anything like it. We have never been close to anything like that. I've been homeschooling for 10 years.

[8filltheheart]

No, I personally wouldn't, unless the child was an extrovert and really wanted to exercise their skills in rhetoric (CC Challenge focuses on this aspect of math, which allows parents some flexibility in the grade level and program for Math that they use at home). That said, Challenge is more than just mathematics. So if my child loved discussing the classics with groups but was ahead/behind in science? Maybe it would be worth it. Thankfully I'm not there yet. :hat: The cost of Challenge is prohibitive, and it does dictate the rest of your homeschooling week far more than Foundations/Essentials, so it may not be for me.

 

But again, CC really is parent-led (hence, the complaints about "unqualified" tutors as compared with online courses and such). So, yes.... you may not have an astrophysicist guiding your child's Challenge-level science discussion, but on the upside you'll be more actively involved in your child's learning than those who outsource to experts. Which means, I think, that you'll be more likely to reap the benefits of a home education.

:) I had typed out a long reply and decided to delete it bc my educational philosophy on reaping the benefits of home education is so far removed from this perspective that we lack any real point of intersection other than kids not attending school. ;) The difference is as vast as radical unschooling and draconian-schooling (fwiw, draconian-schooling is a term long-time parents on the high school forum coined to reflect high-level, intense academic focus.) They both fall under the homeschool umbrella but that is only frame of reference for discussion. :) Edited July 4, 2017 by 8FillTheHeart

[8filltheheart]

Bunny trail alert! 

 

Could you elaborate on being able to take level 300 and 400 classes?  Did you do CLEPs, or placement tests, or something else?   That's awesome  that she can take these classes so soon.

 

 She did take CLEPs and is entering with sophomore standing. The 300 and 400 level courses were based on placement tests. (She placed into 400 level Russian but opted for a 300 level lit class.)

 

We have always homeschooled at home. We have never been part of a co-op or CC or anything like it. We have never been close to anything like that. I've been homeschooling for 10 years.

:) Do you have a lot of other homeschooling friends following a similar path or you pretty much on your own?

[knitgrl]

We are only three years into this homeschooling thing. We live in a rural area, with one local coop. I did go to visit once, just to see what it was all about. I realized that I didn't want to give up any of the subjects they were teaching. They have a science class - I love our science curriculum. They had art, but I have fun doing art with my kids. Once we are done with naptime, we may join a once a week play group that's 45min away, but I think I may end up being old school homeschool, simply because I am too much of a control freak. :laugh:

[lots of little ducklings]

This is true, with paid experts teaching it's very tempting to let the child take the class, learn the material and earn a grade with very little parent interaction unless the parent has a desire or the student needs help..

 

It's not really homeschooling, it's outsource-schooling...

 

I agree.  And I'm generally not interested in outsource-schooling for my own family (foreign language immersion would be the one exception, since I only speak English fluently  :tongue_smilie:).  That said......

 

When the child has outpaced my knowledge or skill in a certain area, I move to more of a facilitator role (although we only do online classes, as there is nothing suitable IRL here).  I didn't take math past Calc BC (I didn't take any at all in college) and I doubt I could really teach past Alg. 2 with any hope of success.  I have never taken Latin and never plan to

 

....I know a few fantastic homeschooling families who do a significant amount of "outsourcing" with their middle/high school-aged kids, and it's been great for them.  Their kids love it, the parents are still very much involved, and it works. 

 

I can't picture it being great for me, but that's just me.  Part of the draw of homeschooling for me is the opportunity to learn alongside my kids. CC is the closest I've gotten to "outsourcing" and, as I've said above, CC really isn't outsourcing.  At all. The model is intended to equip parents with confidence to know that they can do it on their own, even if they've never studied classically themselves.  

[SparklyUnicorn]

I agree.  And I'm generally not interested in outsource-schooling for my own family (foreign language immersion would be the one exception, since I only speak English fluently  :tongue_smilie:).  That said......

 

 

....I know a few fantastic homeschooling families who do a significant amount of "outsourcing" with their middle/high school-aged kids, and it's been great for them.  Their kids love it, the parents are still very much involved, and it works. 

 

I can't picture it being great for me, but that's just me.  Part of the draw of homeschooling for me is the opportunity to learn alongside my kids. CC is the closest I've gotten to "outsourcing" and, as I've said above, CC really isn't outsourcing.  At all. The model is intended to equip parents with confidence to know that they can do it on their own, even if they've never studied classically themselves.  

 

My older kid has been doing his math classes at the CC.  Once he got past algebra 2 I was too much out of my element (but I took the math classes at the CC separately from him as well because I wanted to learn too).  That's it though.  I'll be honest though and say if I could afford more than that I probably would go for it because I am just TIRED and kinda burnt.  It's hard to do it all with my kids sometimes. 

[lots of little ducklings]

:) I had typed out a long reply and decided to delete it bc my educational philosophy on reaping the benefits of home education is so far removed from this perspective that we lack any real point of intersection other than kids not attending school. ;) The difference is as vast as radical unschooling and draconian-schooling (fwiw, draconian-schooling is a term long-time parents on the high school forum coined to reflect high-level, intense academic focus.) They both fall under the homeschool umbrella but that is only frame of reference for discussion. :)

 

 

 

Aw shucks.  But I'd love to hear more...   :001_smile:    Your approach to homeschooling (from other posts/threads) is one that really resonates with me.  So I'm a bit baffled by the bolded above.  

 

Spinoff-thread? PM?

[luuknam]

Spinoff-thread? PM?

 

 

I'm voting spin-off thread.

[8filltheheart]

CC really isn't outsourcing. At all. The model is intended to equip parents with confidence to know that they can do it on their own, even if they've never studied classically themselves.

When a parent is told what subjects they have to enroll in by birthdate vs a parent selecting subjects according to ability, when the resources for teaching those subjects are selected by someone other than the parent, and when the parent is paying for a service for someone offering whatever it is that a "tutor" offers, that definitely meets the criteria of "outsourcing." You may not have experienced that level of influence over your homeschool bc your oldest is 9 and you find value in their "modeling," but what they offer at an older level is most definitely going to impact what is done at home and the flexibility of the student and parent.

[SarahW]

Just raising my hand here to say - "Old School" homeschool had co-ops. Large, extensive, class-based, teacher run co-ops.

 

I attended one in, oh I'm not sure exactly, 1993(ish). Big attendance, had classrooms, paid teachers, etc.

 

It was defined as "extra-curricular" but that meant it included ASL, science, Recorder, and....other things as well. Trying to remember, my mom didn't sign me up for everything.

 

My mom asked for "core" classes once, she was a "3 R's" believer but struggled to implement it. And she was ticked when the secretary said that they didn't offer that, just "extras."

 

So, yeah, what is "old school"? A time period, or just a philosophy born from a time? Because there was a wide variety among my fellow homeschool-ees. And my "old school" mom would have been all over a co-op like CC (except for the price, lol, but she probably would have tried to be a teacher, oh good Lord...).

 

CC is new in that it is nationally-run and systematized (like an MLM). But I really think its popularity really does have to do with tapping into an already perceived need in the homeschool world, not creating new "I don't know how to homeschool by myself" homeschoolers.

[Renai]

My older kid has been doing his math classes at the CC.  Once he got past algebra 2 I was too much out of my element (but I took the math classes at the CC separately from him as well because I wanted to learn too).  That's it though.  I'll be honest though and say if I could afford more than that I probably would go for it because I am just TIRED and kinda burnt.  It's hard to do it all with my kids sometimes. 

 

In this post, CC is Classical Conversations. Btw, I've followed some of your posts and mentioned to my daughter about taking the same classes as her at the community college. She was all for it!

[Renai]

ETA: Wow, this turned out long.

 

I don't think I'm considered an old schooler as I didn't start homeschooling until the early 2000's. Dancer (17) has taken all her classes at home except for two years at charter schools. We've done some outsourcing with VHG, but we quickly found that live options don't work, and she always does the classes at her own pace (there are AYOP classes as well, and there are usually no due dates). She currently takes de courses for a certificate in baking (not elective credits as she doesn't need them), but all her core courses are at home, some self-designed. She doesn't fit in any box. 

 

I do remember doing co-op things when she was younger. They consisted of someone offering a class they were planning on teaching their own children, and inviting others to join them. I remember offering an art class, and also remember people offering geography and book clubs, and such like. That was the extent of our co-ops. The Christian group had a more "formal" coop, done at a member's house, as well as PE in the park, but I don't know what's happened to that. It stopped about 3-4 years ago. I recently found out there is a CC group in our city, and seems that's where everyone migrated. I briefly considered it for my 1st grader, but figured she wouldn't fit in that box either.

 

I've been a moderator for a local email group for several years now, with over 200 families. There are park days and such, but I rarely see teens. When I've offered meetups or discussions on homeschooling high school, I've had 1-2 families show up. I recently offered a meeting with the dual credit enrollment coordinator at the community college, and I have 14 teens and their families signed up. 

 

Homeschoolers that don't outsource are out there, but I think because there aren't the support meetings and things like that as common, methods aren't being discussed as much locally. They get drawn more into the formal groups like CC, because there are the meetings and explanations on how they work. Community is built in with those types of groups, and for new families that is important. I know of two families with young children putting their kids in school this year because there just wasn't the support this year. (One of the families had her daughter in the same dance class as mine this past year, and I never knew she homeschooled!) Strangely, when I did offer support meetings, the numbers started dwindling so much, only my best friend's family was coming. I finally started working (but still homeschooled) and just stopped offering them. That was years ago.

Edited July 4, 2017 by Renai

[yvonne]

So, yeah, what is "old school"? A time period, or just a philosophy born from a time? Because there was a wide variety among my fellow homeschool-ees. And my "old school" mom would have been all over a co-op like CC (except for the price, lol, but she probably would have tried to be a teacher, oh good Lord...).

 

CC is new in that it is nationally-run and systematized (like an MLM). But I really think its popularity really does have to do with tapping into an already perceived need in the homeschool world, not creating new "I don't know how to homeschool by myself" homeschoolers.

 

:iagree:

 

Just as there's sometimes a cult-like feel to CC, there can also sometimes be just as much a cult-like feel to the "old-school" idea.

 

With CC, a family tries it, feels like it's better than sliced bread, the be-all, end-all solution to home schooling because it fills a need they've felt, maybe for a few years. Of course they tell all their friends about it! They think EVERYone will love it, and they'd love to be having that experience with their friends. They don't do it for money. There's clearly money at the corporate level, and maybe the state level, or they wouldn't do it, but the money at the director and below level is pretty insignificant, or was when I did it. They do it because they are "true believers" in this new thing they've discovered!   I don't think there's anything wrong with that. Most of us go through at least one thing or one experience that we just have to tell everyone we know about bec we're so sure they'll love it, too.

 

With the cult of "old-schooling," I think it's more a nostalgia on the part of those who did home school with no co-ops, no outside classes of any sort.  Doing something like that, completely on your own, is HARD!  It was before the internet and there weren't even many books with advice on how to do it.  When you make your own way, successfully, through something hard, you look back at it with great satisfaction. It really was a good experience for you and your children because everyone learned something about hard work, beyond whatever subject matter content you studied.  You wish others could have that same end result.

 

So, any model of education can become cult-like. I can understand a person's excitement over this or that or the other way of doing something like home schooling. It worked very well for her, she wants to share it with everyone out of love for others and out of excitement about something that filled a significant need for her.

 

What really bothers me is when a person says or implies that THEIR way is the single BEST and ONLY way to do something for every parent and every child out there. I hate threads that devolve into "YOU aren't REALLY home schooling (if you're doing it differently than I did it), you're ...." fill in the blank. "You're public schooling." "You're doing school at home." "You're outsourcing everything." "You're....."    Then the rest of the thread is people feeling like they have to justify why they outsource one or all classes or why they use a co-op or why they use a class at a local hybrid....  Basically, why they do anything at all other than do every last bit on their own, at home, independent of any other home schooler.

 

 

ETA:  I should add.... I think any of these different approaches to home schooling can work out successfully, but I don't think there is any ONE method that will work out successfully for EVERY parent, or EVERY family, or EVERY child. That's why it's so important that advocates of all the different variations are engaged and available to talk about their experience.

 

It's only unproductive, and damaging even, when an advocate of any particular method states or implies that if the parent does not use her particular method, the parent is failing, or not providing as good an education or her child, or not REALLY home schooling.

Edited July 4, 2017 by yvonne

[yvonne]

My dd who will be leaving for college in a few weeks and will be attending on full scholarship has never stepped foot inside of a classroom.  She took an online DE stats class this spring and had a 100 avg.  :001_rolleyes:  FWIW, I am not worried about her at all and she has signed up for 300 and 400 level classes.  :001_cool:

 

Isn't this the daughter who did university language classes in high school?  I know she completely self-studied to a certain point, but didn't she eventually take university classes as a high schooler, too?   Or were those online?

[8filltheheart]

Isn't this the daughter who did university language classes in high school?  I know she completely self-studied to a certain point, but didn't she eventually take university classes as a high schooler, too?   Or were those online?

 

No, she never took any university classes.  She took Russian for 4 yrs with Julia Denne and tested into 400 level Russian.  She self-studied French to fluency and then spent a couple of yrs just reading lit and conversing with a recent French immigrant.  She was not a tutor or teacher.  Just the wife of someone who moved here for work and missed her kids and grandkids and enjoyed time with dd.

 

Other than her classes with Mrs. Denne and the stats course she took online this spring through our local community college, she didn't take any classes outside of our home.

 

ETA: My other kids have DE in lots of classes.  My current college sr took numerous math and physics classes at our local university, etc.  I have nothing against outsourcing.  My dd just didn't want to.  She wanted a unique education that was centered around what she wanted to study, so that is what we did.  My frustration is with the constant mantra that exists today that you NEED outside validation and outsourced classes in order for colleges to accept what was done at home.  That is not our experience, either with my kids that graduated a decade ago or my dd that graduated this yr.  

Edited July 4, 2017 by 8FillTheHeart

[bethben]

:iagree:

 

 

With the cult of "old-schooling," I think it's more a nostalgia on the part of those who did home school with no co-ops, no outside classes of any sort.  Doing something like that, completely on your own, is HARD!  It was before the internet and there weren't even many books with advice on how to do it.  When you make your own way, successfully, through something hard, you look back at it with great satisfaction. It really was a good experience for you and your children because everyone learned something about hard work, beyond whatever subject matter content you studied.  You wish others could have that same end result.

 

 

What really bothers me is when a person says or implies that THEIR way is the single BEST and ONLY way to do something for every parent and every child out there. I hate threads that devolve into "YOU aren't REALLY home schooling (if you're doing it differently than I did it), you're ...." fill in the blank. "You're public schooling." "You're doing school at home." "You're outsourcing everything." "You're....."    Then the rest of the thread is people feeling like they have to justify why they outsource one or all classes or why they use a co-op or why they use a class at a local hybrid....  Basically, why they do anything at all other than do every last bit on their own, at home, independent of any other home schooler.

 

Thank you for saying this.  I was thinking similarly.  When you have new homeschoolers who buy into the thought that you're only homeschooling if you do it ALL yourself, then you're going to get what we see a lot of - people quitting in the junior high and high school years because it becomes quickly obvious that one person cannot do it all.  I outsourced all of ds -16 classes this year.  I had no idea how to give him a good quality high school course.  And no, he didn't have the motivation to learn a subject at that level himself.  There's not a lot of support for the high school level and homeschool conventions are useless for that age group since the seminars are filled up with things like "How to train your boys to be knights" or "How to be the best homemaker/homeschool/super mom that you can be".   :glare: I have done what was best for my children's education - not what matches up to my own ideals.  

 

My ideal would have been a child who was self motivated in high school to learn subjects on his own and do it well - or at least find mentors to learn from.  My next best was that he would have mentors through online Christian classes.  What we are winding up with is dual enrollment because he is zoning out with online classes, and I can't find a mentor/tutor who will meet with him weekly to give him the education ds wants.  He needs live classes with real in person teachers.  My ideals for what things would look like as a homeschooler have changed radically as I have figured out what each of my children needs.  I'm glad to have choices and I really don't care if someone says I'm not a "true" homeschooler.  I'm not.  I'm just doing the best education for each of my children with each of their need.  

[yvonne]

I was hoping maybe she'd done online French lit courses from some university! I'd have jumped at looking into that opportunity for my kids!!

 

It is seriously impressive that she had the stamina and perseverance to self-study to the level of French that she did!! Congrats to her for doing it! Congrats to you for supporting her in finding a way to achieve her goals!

[Heathermomster]

Yvonne, I understand what you're saying, but your post is another reminder that old schoolers aren't going to have anyone asking us how we did it - not when the answer is that we had no coops and emphatically did not want them (especially for elementary).

 

I really wonder whether traditional hs'ing will be popular, or even known, in the future. I don't care as much as I used to, but I do still worry about the special needs students and other outliers who will always need one one on tutoring and extreme flexibility. Will their parents recognize the hs'ing option, and be able to find resources and support in the age of CC, UMS, Schole groups, Tapestry coops, et cetera?

Yes, I have a 2e son with a reading, handwriting, and mathematics disability.  I fully accepted the homeschool option by 5th grade and pulled him from the classroom at the beginning of 7th grade.  My extrovert took some convincing.  The cover that we use accommodates with extra test-taking time and any classroom or testing supports that I request within reason.  This business is sorted prior to class, and if the teacher isn't thrilled to work with DS, well he doesn't sit the class.  DS types his test answers and uses an Echo Smartpen during lecture.

 

The first 3 years that we homeschooled, DS worked with outside tutors for reading and writing.  I manage the math.  My son's processing issues are a big deal coupled with the fact that my younger child has chronic health issues.  I am challenged to find local moms with a student like my DS.  

 

Programs like CC put me off entirely, and I have no desire to be a part of it; however, there is no denying that CC works for many.  To each his own....

Edited July 4, 2017 by Heathermomster

[yvonne]

When you have new homeschoolers who buy into the thought that you're only homeschooling if you do it ALL yourself, then you're going to get what we see a lot of - people quitting in the junior high and high school years because it becomes quickly obvious that one person cannot do it all.  

 

<snip>

 

My ideal would have been a child who was self motivated in high school to learn subjects on his own and do it well - or at least find mentors to learn from.  My next best was that he would have mentors through online Christian classes.  What we are winding up with is

 

 

<snip>

 

 My ideals for what things would look like as a homeschooler have changed radically as I have figured out what each of my children needs.  I'm glad to have choices and I really don't care if someone says I'm not a "true" homeschooler.  I'm not.  I'm just doing the best education for each of my children with each of their need.  

 

Yes!  That's the thing! It goes both ways.   People who want to do, or who do, or who have to do everything completely on their own can get discouraged to the point of giving up if they feel like they're doing their kids a disservice by not using outside resources.

 

By the same token, people who use outside resources can get just as down on themselves and what they're doing when they're made to feel like they're doing something "wrong" or like they aren't "really" home schooling unless they do it totally on their own.

 

Regarding ideals....  I wonder if that's the case for many people who home school... that they start out with that ideal... the self-motivated child, learning for the sake of learning, interested/curious about a plethora of things, or so completely excited about one topic/area that they can't get enough of it, etc. 

 

Those kids exist, and I really, really wish I had one!  LOL  (This is where my own insecurity comes in.... WOULD I have had one if I'd done things differently?! I don't know. I know I've been much more relaxed with my dd, and she loves writing and spends hours and hours on it. Is that because she had time to figure that out bec I was more relaxed with her? Did I cheat my sons out of finding their passion bec I was so focused on doing the best I could for them? Is that ironic, or what?! Fortunately, in spite of my possible mistakes with my oldest, they've found a passion for speech & debate, so maybe kids can overcome their parents' mistakes.)

 

Like you, my approach to home schooling has changed over time.

 

Edited July 4, 2017 by yvonne

[Bluegoat]

I really feel like talking about high school age or level kids as if they are the same as younger kids is a little misleading.  That's an age when in earlier times, they might be in a college prearing for university, they could be working at a trade along side a parent or mentor, they might be married or going into the military.  I think that a parent to supply all of the education at that point in life would actually be uncommon.

 

At a younger age, its different.  I feel like I fall in between - I wish parents didn't feel like they need to spend money on outside "products".  People can do more than they think.  But at the same time, I'm essentially a communitarian, not someone who believes we live in isolation as families.  Including with education.

 

I think its really the commercialization of it that bothers me.

[...................]

I agree.  And I'm generally not interested in outsource-schooling for my own family (foreign language immersion would be the one exception, since I only speak English fluently  :tongue_smilie:).  That said......

 

 

....I know a few fantastic homeschooling families who do a significant amount of "outsourcing" with their middle/high school-aged kids, and it's been great for them.  Their kids love it, the parents are still very much involved, and it works. 

 

I can't picture it being great for me, but that's just me.  Part of the draw of homeschooling for me is the opportunity to learn alongside my kids. CC is the closest I've gotten to "outsourcing" and, as I've said above, CC really isn't outsourcing.  At all. The model is intended to equip parents with confidence to know that they can do it on their own, even if they've never studied classically themselves.  

 

I understand what you're saying but would point out, it's not really about you.  IMO, if one of your goals of homeschooling high school is to learn alongside your kids, I would really say that seems like the wrong goal. 

 

High School should be about you giving your kids the best start in life they could have.  It's just not about you.  For some kids, like 8Fills, that will mean staying home because they are happy, involved in society, AND have a mom that somehow figured out how to give them an academic edge (and then some)....for my kids it involves a lot of outsourcing, and starting community college early....for other kids it may involve CC,....

 

But it should be about that particular child, in the context of what your entire family can deliver and handle ...not about you. 

 

Not being mean...just saying that is a terrible reason to do anything for your teens.  They have to be delivered to the world as healthy and ready as they can be.  

[...................]

My problem, and I think THE problem with CC is:

Too many Rules

Too much corporate involvement

MLM style marketing techniques

Encouragement of community Splits (so people can MAKE MONEY) - in our area CC groups with as little as 15 kids have people split off to become "Directors" of new groups....makes no sense.  It happens constantly, every year.  

AGGRESSIVE and annoying marketing, CC "Info Meetings"

Hardly-trained "tutors" that newbies think are somehow experienced or knowledgeable (you might get someone truly knowledgeable but that will be a total accident.)

 

 

Plus these additional issues:

Lock-Step curriculum at the Challenge and partially, Essentials Levels

All the downfalls of a UM School without the benefits 

So far behind in Math and Science

 

 

[Mrs Twain]

My problem, and I think THE problem with CC is:

Too many Rules

Too much corporate involvement

MLM style marketing techniques

Encouragement of community Splits (so people can MAKE MONEY) - in our area CC groups with as little as 15 kids have people split off to become "Directors" of new groups....makes no sense. It happens constantly, every year.

AGGRESSIVE and annoying marketing, CC "Info Meetings"

Hardly-trained "tutors" that newbies think are somehow experienced or knowledgeable (you might get someone truly knowledgeable but that will be a total accident.)

 

 

Plus these additional issues:

Lock-Step curriculum at the Challenge and partially, Essentials Levels

All the downfalls of a UM School without the benefits

So far behind in Math and Science

I generally agree with the negatives you listed. However, most people who do CC don't experience much of that.

 

I was part of a group of four years and used only the segments that I needed to fill in my curriculum goals. It was wonderful and worth every pemny. So even though the corporate policies may be bad, many of the local groups function well and are a good benefit to their communities.

[yvonne]

 So even though the corporate policies may be bad, many of the local groups function well and are a good benefit to their communities.

 

That was my experience, too.  The local groups and the directors I've known have been wonderful!   Foundations and Essentials definitely filled a need for us at the time we were involved!