Is classical conversations a cult..or product..or..

[Vida Winter]

:lurk5:

[Paige]

 

Also, is it just me or do conservative evangelical women (I am one, so don't assume I'm prejudice against them) tend to like MLM schemes more than most people?  Between the jewelry, make up, purse and kitchen versions of MLM schemes, I run into them all the time at churches and in the homeschooling community.  I just don't get it.  Why would anyone limit themselves to what they can get at these small venues when the whole world of big box stores (Walmart, Target), amazon.com, and every mall in America exists?  I want to pick and choose from a world of options, not just what one company is peddling. 

 

I think it's because this subset of women is discouraged from seeking outside employment even if those involved would like to. MLM companies give them a relatively easy path to earn money, get out of the house, and still be SAHMs.

[HSmomof2]

Several posters have asked why people would join CC since there are other options..... I can't speak for other people, but for us, there aren't' other options.

 

When the kids were younger it was all play groups while I wanted academics. We lived here for 5 years before I realized what the issue was.

All the local co-ops are by invitation only.

 

I didn't know anyone, so I could never get to know anyone. As the kids got older there were less academic groups for their age avalible and those that existed needed some kind of password voodoo to get any information about. People had their little group and they didn't want anyone else. As a consequence my son homeschooled Jr. High with pretty much no friends.

 

CC will let you in, they advertise info meetings and let you visit, and welcome new people. It's not just field trips or park days. This is a group of people who want to educate their children to a high level. No one scoffs that you are learning Latin or reading great books. $500 a year is a lot of money, but not having a community of people is expensive in other ways. I may not like everything about CC and if it were up to me there are several things I would do differently (really would it kill them to do a 4-year history cycle!!) BUT, it gave the classical homeschoolers in our area an opportunity to come together and I do so love my people!

 

One other thing, I feel like there is a misconception out there about CC and it's purpose. Now, you can argue that you would like something different (and I might agree with you) but CC isn't a drop-off and they don't call the class leaders "teachers" for a very specific reason.

 

CC is supposed to be a mentorship-like program.

 

The idea is to include those parents in the classroom and have an experienced homeschool mom show them that this homeschooling thing is possible. The kids aren't learning a ton of context because that's not the point. The whole Idea is to introduce the information and to show the parents how to practice it at home. It is also a venue for the children to practice speaking skills and do a little art, science, music. The tutor is suppose to take the role of "lead-learner" and show both parents and kids how to learn, not that the teacher knows everything but how they figure it out, solve problems and find information they want.

 

The 7-12th grades is a full curriculum and at this point I lean toward having subject experts as my preference, but that isn't the goal of the CC program. The goal is to demonstrate the process of learning.

 

It isn't a full curriculum in the elementary grades, but you can use it as a jumping off point to easily create a complete program. Add SOTW to the history memory work and you have all the history an elementary aged kid needs. A quick google search about the concepts in the science experiment or a Kingfisher science encyclopedia can fill in any questions you might have about that.

 

I'm not saying that it always does this mentor/ lead-learner thing well, but knowing that is their goal puts makes it easier to understand the way they do some things.

 

In our area we started a second group this past Fall and as of last week (the first-week people outside of current members could sign up) both were full with a waiting list. Maybe you are seeing facebook posts and emails because there is a need and your friends want to get the word out. We are being begged for a third group, but we don't want to spread the local classical education leadership and experience too thin. It is a difficult position to be in when I know the other options are just no open to most people. I don't have many other solutions for those families.

Our situation here is the opposite. A lot of the local co-op people have left to start very 'exclusive' CC groups. You really have to know someone to even get any information. Most of the CC groups are full. I looked into it last year, and they would take ds, but not dd because they were too full in her age group. CC here is also $1275/student, which is way too much for 'mom teachers'.

[eternalsummer]

To be completely fair, for kids like 8filltheheart's kids and other relatively high achievers, I don't think the concern about mommy grades is equivalent to someone whose kids score a 22 on the ACT instead of a 32 (or whatever).  If you have a kid who has all mommy grades but gets a 34 on the ACT and a 750 math 800 reading on the SAT, schools are going to trust the mommy grades (and mommy will trust schools to trust the mommy grades) more than for a kid whose standardized test scores don't necessarily suggest mastery.  For *those* kids, average and below kids who want to go to college, I can see why people want what feels like the security of CC.

 

However, the security itself is BS.  CC is just a co-op.  The other CC (community college), or even an online class from a provider that has actual teachers with actual degrees, would be a better security investment, imo.

 

 

Also, we use 8filltheheart's Treasured Conversations and I can say that it is very supportive and gentle toward the parent, while being thorough and accurate.

[eternalsummer]

I'm not disputing that moms can A. have degrees or B. be skilled at some profession or C. be well educated.

 

But, for instance, I am a successful business owner with some postgraduate hours and a lot of self-education, as well as being a fairly intelligent person.

 

I am not qualified to teach (like, directly teach) anything except maybe writing.  And my postgraduate hours are from a teacher's college, in writing instruction!

 

 

eta: I mean high school, esp. upper high school level.  I am a great elementary math teacher :)

 

Edited February 15, 2017 by ananemone

[HSmomof2]

I'm not disputing that moms can A. have degrees or B. be skilled at some profession or C. be well educated.

 

But, for instance, I am a successful business owner with some postgraduate hours and a lot of self-education, as well as being a fairly intelligent person.

 

I am not qualified to teach (like, directly teach) anything except maybe writing. And my postgraduate hours are from a teacher's college, in writing instruction!

I agree.....most of the homeschool moms I know are well-educated and have college degrees. But, teaching a group class, especially at the high school level, imo requires some specific expertise. I'm sure there are some moms who are excellent CC teachers. I just think it's too expensive for something that doesn't offer certified teachers or accreditation. Our CC Challenge level still only meets one day/week, not really like a UM school. And it's especially sad when people feel pressured to join CC primarily for the community/social aspect.

[...................]

You could take about 3 homeschool -center courses from experienced credentialed teachers in their specific field for the cost of CC challenge. To me it makes more sense to do that :)

 

And I agree - foundations is a fun supplement. Essentials is very hard to just make it a supplement , challenge is impossible :)

[Paige]

I thought, I could pay for CC or I could pay for AOPS online and Lukeion....

[Mrs Twain]

To be completely fair, for kids like 8filltheheart's kids and other relatively high achievers, I don't think the concern about mommy grades is equivalent to someone whose kids score a 22 on the ACT instead of a 32 (or whatever). If you have a kid who has all mommy grades but gets a 34 on the ACT and a 750 math 800 reading on the SAT, schools are going to trust the mommy grades (and mommy will trust schools to trust the mommy grades) more than for a kid whose standardized test scores don't necessarily suggest mastery. For *those* kids, average and below kids who want to go to college, I can see why people want what feels like the security of CC..

You just made my point. The colleges trust the non-mommy SAT and ACT scores. They are not judging the student on the mommy transcript.

[Lori D.]

You just made my point. The colleges trust the non-mommy SAT and ACT scores. They are not judging the student on the mommy transcript.

 

Not at all trying to be argumentative or discounting your experiences, or anyone else's experiences, but this also holds true for public/private/charter high school transcripts as well.

 

College admission offices typically require ACT/SAT test scores from ALL incoming freshmen, because high schools vary SO widely in class offerings, emphasis, and rigor, that the only method colleges have to somewhat compare students is through standardized test scores. What one high school calls "Honors" might be an average class for another school, so again, AP test scores are what colleges can look at to get somewhat of an idea of a student's abilities with advanced material.**

 

ACT/SAT test scores are also how colleges award scholarships to all students (whether homeschool, or public/private/charter schooled). Yes, transcript GPAs are looked at, but it's the test scores that are the major/deciding factor for awarding merit aid, and that holds true for all students, regardless of how they were schooled.

 

About the only thing college admission offices *can* learn from a public/private/charter high school transcript that can't be learned from a homeschool transcript is class ranking, which is a factor that is looked at, but again, because tiny schools may only have a graduating class of 2 dozen, and large schools have graduating classes of 500+ students, it's just not a very "level playing field" or effective deciding factor for colleges as far as admissions and awarding scholarships.

 

Again, sorry to hear you have had some bad experiences with school administrators and your homeschool transcripts.  :( Hope your future college admissions adventures will run smoothly! :)

 

 

** = side note: SAT Subject tests, CLEP tests, and dual enrollment are also looked at by college admissions to get a better idea of a student's abilities (regardless of how high school was accomplished). For example, about 30 colleges require (and several dozen more colleges strongly recommend) 2 or more SAT Subject tests from ALL applicants, regardless of schooling.

Edited February 15, 2017 by Lori D.

[eternalsummer]

You just made my point. The colleges trust the non-mommy SAT and ACT scores. They are not judging the student on the mommy transcript.

 

Not quite.  Colleges trust the non-mommy SAT and ACT scores because the SAT and ACT are actual valid measurements of achievement and/or potential.  

 

CC classes are literally mommy grades.  Just another mommy, not a more qualified one.  I doubt any college admissions counselor with any sense looks at them differently.

 

But (and this was the point of my post) CC has convinced some mommies that CC classes *are* more valid on a transcript.

[8filltheheart]

You just made my point. The colleges trust the non-mommy SAT and ACT scores. They are not judging the student on the mommy transcript.

That comment demonstrates lack of experience with the college application process b/c it is a gross overgeneralization.

 

Test scores matter for college applications in general, regardless of whether you homeschool or not. Collegedata.com is a good way to start understanding school profiles and how your student fits into a school's test score range. http://www.collegedata.com/ A general rule of thumb for all students, not just homeschoolers, is that test scores in the upper quartile are more likely admits and competitive for scholarships.

 

But, coursework, especially taking challenging courses that demonstrate a student's ability to function at a high level, matters. What courses are on a student's transcript will determine how competitive they are for different types of colleges. For example, a student with 2 foreign language, math through alg 2 or precal, 3 sciences, 3 histories, etc, regardless of test scores, is not going to be as competitive of a student at certain tier schools as a student with 5 foreign languages, math through calculus, 4 sciences, 4 histories, etc. The difference is the rigor of the courses taken. Having test scores that match the transcript and a transcript that matches the test scores is going determine the competitiveness of the applicant.

 

For competitive schools, even that is not enough. The activities and accomplishments of the student outside of the classroom are going to play a huge factor in college admissions.

 

FWIW, homeschoolers are eligible for competitive scholarships that are not guaranteed scholarships based just on GPA and test scores, though there are plenty of schools where those 2 factors are the main criteria. Many scholarship competitions are competitive scholarships that have extensive applications. Schools post the profiles of previous yrs' awardees, so it is possible to gauge if a student is even close to being competitive as an applicant. Their profiles do typically include test scores, but also academic info about the students, including GPA, types of advanced courses completed, academic honors/awards, leadership roles, etc.

 

If all that mattered was test scores, the schools would have no way of filtering applicants. There are a lot of kids with top test scores. Test scores are just one single piece of the application.

 

Knowing what types of colleges your students are competitive applicants for makes a huge difference in the outcome of the application process.

Edited February 16, 2017 by 8FillTheHeart

[yvonne]

Colleges trust the non-mommy SAT and ACT scores because the SAT and ACT are actual valid measurements of achievement and/or potential.  

 

 

Some will argue about whether the SAT & ACT are valid measurements of achievement/potential, but nobody can argue that both the SAT & ACT are nation-wide tests, so they give a more uniform way of comparing students across the country.

 

Also, because the SAT & ACT are given by schools/test centers, they are given more objectively. When mom gives a test, there's a risk that the mom will help more than she's aware of, not necessarily by giving the answer, but with facial expressions, leading questions, etc.  (Yes, there is/can also be cheating by schools & teachers & test prep companies, but I imagine that a uniform, national test given by an objective, outside entity, to a larger group of students, would be more reliable than the same test given to individual students by millions of individual parents.)

 

It's been mentioned on the college board that international colleges look at SAT, ACT, & AP test scores, not so much at gpa.  That makes a lot of sense to me.  Good or bad, what other standard, national metric do they have to compare one US applicant to another?  (ETA: Or other national contests, etc.)

Edited February 15, 2017 by yvonne

[Another Lynn]

Additionally, on the transcript issue, how will a college even know a transcript is for a CC kid?  CC is not a school.  It is still a parent-prepared, parent-issued transcript.  The same kid could have done the exact classes without CC and the transcript would look the exact same.  

[8filltheheart]

Additionally, on the transcript issue, how will a college even know a transcript is for a CC kid? CC is not a school. It is still a parent-prepared, parent-issued transcript. The same kid could have done the exact classes without CC and the transcript would look the exact same.

Good question. The people I have spoken with made the distinction. I didn't bring it up. They did.

 

A key denoting where courses were completed? Most homeschool transcripts do note outsourced courses. Course descriptions, maybe?

[StillStanding]

Answering the question:

 

In my neighborhood: They are selling the Kool-Aid but  I am not buying :)

[dirty ethel rackham]

You are correct that it is not a school and does not provide grades, but the transcript issue starts to blur the lines. The very real high school parents I deal with honestly believe that taking CC classes gives greater weight to their transcripts bc their transcripts ARE CC courses. I believe it is directly related to the way CC promotes itself. Their language about themselves refers to CC graduates and CC alumni.

 

"Classical Conversations graduates have been admitted to more than 200 unique colleges and universities in 40 of the 50 states, the District of Columbia, and two foreign countries......

 

In a 2013 survey of Classical Conversations alumni..."

 

Graduates and alumni are terms associated with schools and the conferring of diplomas. It is a very blurred image.

 

https://www.classicalconversations.com/classical/academic-services/cc-college-students

 

What a load of marketing BS.  CC graduates are homeschool graduates.  So, they are being admitted to colleges and universities.  Big Deal.  So are homeschoolers without any outside classes.  It isn't CC that makes them marketable.  They are simply a source of academic content that may or may not have been better than what a mom could have done at home.  For what the local CC charges for high school aged kids, I could pay for 2 very high quality classes at our local liberal arts college, taught by PhDs.

[Another Lynn]

I can see why a CC transcript would be looked at as better than a mommy transcript. (I do not have my kids do CC beyond Foundations, so we are not any of those people who would will have a CC transcript.). But I have had enough contact with school administrators and others like them to know that anything non-mommy is regarded much higher than anything done by mommy. They don't trust mommies, no matter how smart and accomplished the mommies are!

 

Pretty sure there is no such thing as a CC transcript.  It's not a school.  They don't issue grades.  Challenge kids are taught and graded at home like anyone else.  They only meet for discussions, debates, labs, etc.  

[Guest]

What a load of marketing BS.  CC graduates are homeschool graduates.  So, they are being admitted to colleges and universities.  Big Deal.  So are homeschoolers without any outside classes.  It isn't CC that makes them marketable.  They are simply a source of academic content that may or may not have been better than what a mom could have done at home.  For what the local CC charges for high school aged kids, I could pay for 2 very high quality classes at our local liberal arts college, taught by PhDs.

 

Here's something we've learned as we're pursuing accreditation for the WTM Academy: College admissions people have told us that they put transcripts from accredited online schools in the same pile as the home school transcripts. Even with accreditation.

 

That's not necessarily a bad thing, it just means that if you're not in a traditional bricks-and-mortar school, NO ONE can provide you with a bricks-and-mortar-equivalent transcript.  

 

And CC has no sort of standing to offer transcript service, so far as I know.

 

SWB

[8filltheheart]

Here's something we've learned as we're pursuing accreditation for the WTM Academy: College admissions people have told us that they put transcripts from accredited online schools in the same pile as the home school transcripts. Even with accreditation.

 

That's not necessarily a bad thing, it just means that if you're not in a traditional bricks-and-mortar school, NO ONE can provide you with a bricks-and-mortar-equivalent transcript.

 

And CC has no sort of standing to offer transcript service, so far as I know.

 

SWB

I find that information incredibly illuminating. My current sr marches to her own drummer. She absolutely loves learning and has thoroughly enjoyed the ability to study courses at the depth she has wanted. She made the very deliberate decision to use homeschooling to its fullest advantage and not take APs or DE even though she is by far one of my most advanced kids.

 

We discussed the possible ramifications of that decision--that some schools might not like her untraditional transcript and it might limit her admissions offers. I wanted to make sure she really understood that it could have negative consequences. She was determined. She took the stance that this was her opportunity to study subjects uniquely and with complete freedom to wander down trails of interest as she explored her path toward adulthood.

 

Her course descriptions and my counselor letter describe her passionate pursuit of subjects and the research put into finding resources. I described how she helped design her courses and that she asked to do a senior capstone thesis on Shakespeare, etc. Bc she did things her way, she was able to study multiple foreign languages, their cultures, their literature, etc. Her subjects intertwine across each other.

 

The response has been overwhelmingly positive. She has been accepted into programs we only dared hope she would even be considered for. Two weekends ago she was at a scholarship interview weekend and the comment she received from multiple people (from admissions officers to the scholars program director to individual professors on the committee) was how impressed they were with her interests and her obvious internal motivation to learn. They were fascinated with how she taught herself French and her ability to learn outside conventional methods.

 

She has received hand-written notes from adcoms with similar sentiments when congratulating her with admission.

 

Ever single thing in her transcript has been done completely at home with the exception of Russian (and DE statistics this semester, but that has zero influence in admissions bc she already has her offers.)

 

I am glad I didn't force her high school courses to conform to the conventional wisdom of needing outside validation and APs and DE to "prove" her advanced levels of achievement. She was the shining force in her applications. It not only worked, but worked exceedingly well. It has given me a different perspective on the application process. Highlighting homeschooling's unique strengths and opportunities is an opportunity for students to stand out, not blend in.

 

Oops, sorry for going on and on!

[Another Lynn]

That's good to know. But if the colleges don't care about accreditation, then who does? Is it for states with more regulations for homeschoolers and umbrella schools, or just a marketing thing? I live in a state with practically zero regs and they don't give a fig what we do, but maybe in other states? Just curious.

What about NCAA - do they care?

[Lori D.]

...But if the colleges don't care about accreditation, then who does?

 

A few scholarships.

A small number of U.S. universities.

A large number of vocational-tech schools, cosmetology schools, etc.

Some overseas universities (depending on the country).

 

Accreditation can sometimes smooth the transition of credit acceptance for homeschoolers who re-enter the public/private/charter school system.

 

NCAA requires completion of specific credits, and also requires the use of certain materials or online course providers to meet their clearinghouse standards for college sports eligibility. Not certain whether or not the online course providers need to be *accredited*, but the list of textbook/materials allowed to fulfill NCAA requirements is NOT limited to only accredited publishers/providers.

Edited February 19, 2017 by Lori D.

[Loolamay]

Not only cultish, but just Google the legal ramifications. "Classical Conversations" "Independent Contractor" "tax" "IRS". There was once a Facebook group that discussed these things but the woman who founded it shut it down after CC's corporate lawyers threatened to sue her for breaching her confidentiality clause (that is in every contract and non-disclosure agreement a CC worker has to sign). They threatened to sue me also in an official letter from their corporate lawyers but as I never signed a contract they lobbed accusations of slander and business interference. If that all doesn't tell you enough about what this supposedly Christian company is like, I don't know what you need to hear.

[kristin0713]

We had a great experience with our local CC group the past three years.  No, it's not a perfect program and yes, it's expensive for what you get.  Most of the cost pays the tutors and director and covers supplies.  I have found that with the other co-ops and homeschooling groups local to me, people are not committed if they don't invest money.  CC is highly structured and regulated and with that comes a level of predictability--although of course that is dependent on the people involved--and on the other extreme I have experienced co-ops that are a free-for-all with a lack of commitment from participating families.   As with any program, there are many things that I would change about CC if I could, but I feel that we have taken away a lot that is valuable.  Preparing a presentation every week was a huge confidence booster for my introverted and insecure DD.  Learning how to respect other adults and peers in a classroom setting for just a few hours each week was challenging and ultimately a great growing experience for my high-energy DS.  Working with peers on projects was a wonderful experience for both of them.  Could we have found other ways to grow in those areas?  Yes--but the structure of CC and the specific community that we had made it all very accessible in one place and very enjoyable for all of us.  

[nixpix5]

This thread has been helpful and hilarious. :) I know a homeschooling mom who has been part of a CC community for 4 years. She loves it and her group is cohesive. Her experience has led me to join a group in the fall. I looked long and hard, visited sites and talked to multiple directors. I was specifically looking for a well established group that hadn't morphed too many times. I found one and have been able to get to know some of the lovely women in the group. They seem amazing. We are joining solely for community. We do belong to another co-op but it isn't consistent. I wanted my littles to have a consistent day each week they could look forward to spending time with the same group of peers. I was told upfront that CC was not the educator. I have the foundations book and it is essentially lists of memory work. There isn't much to it. I cannot imagine how or why someone would believe this to be a full curriculum. My plan is to lightly do the memory work that coincides with what we are already studying and not push it. If the kids enjoy it and want to learn it great, if not I don't care as it is not my curriculum for them. I see it as an extra. I purchased the CD and played it one day in the car and the kids loved it. They are already singing along with some of the songs. As long as they see it as fun and are learning then all is well in my world. I do agree it is expensive.

 

We are trying it out this year and who knows about next. It does have pyramid scheme type of vibes. A couple directors I spoke with treated it like their religion. I did not pursue those groups at all. I settled on the director who invited me over, used WTM curriculum and various other components and said she used it for enrichment only. I came from a Montessori environment so I have gotten good at dodging the cult kool-aid and keeping my own goals in perspective.

[Loolamay]

To the person who said that your director friend was running a good campus and was not a slave to the program - I'm glad. I was part of a campus like that... until the corporate goons came and browbeat our director into doing things their *exact* way. I hope your friend's experience lasts, but I don't think it will. They'll come for her eventually. It's been a really sad journey we've had with CC. To answer the original post: it's a multi-million dollar business as the corporate level. It's a multi-hundred, possibly low multi-thousand business at the level of the poor schlubs who chose to "represent", direct or tutor (and probably think they're doing a "ministry). Not unlike any other MLM. Plexus isn't about the *money*, right? Plexus reps want to help you *heal your gut*. Right?

Edited June 16, 2017 by AprilDianne

[...................]

Sad. I guess some people don't mind about what they make because it's good for their own kids. I know many who tutor and they don't care how much money they make or don't make- CC is great for their kids so they do it. Just like we drive wherever our kids need us to drive, we pay for what they need if we can, we sacrifice and it all works out.

 

But it's still sad that alongside the low pay are such extremely controlling conditions.

[...................]

I feel like they've become the McDonald's of the homeschooling world. I'm all for people being happy but wow. Every time this thread comes up its an eye opener!!

And there are people who love McDonalds too.

Go figure.

 

(Meaning I hate McDonald's but those people exist.)

Edited June 24, 2017 by Calming Tea

[IJustGotHere]

I joke that it feels like a MLM homeschool.  When I hear how people try to drag you in so they make money teaching your child and don't have to pay to teach their own--seems sketchy.  One person in an area group is really scattered and poor at teaching--and was teaching ONE YEAR to get it cheap or free for her kids.  She tried to get people to buy in and some did, but I feel like as homeschool moms, it would be fine to buy their products but feels weird to be charged so much--and then the materials become obsolete.

Having said that, a new gal I met is starting a group up--teaching only so that she can get like-minded moms and families involved so her kids have friends.  She will probably be an awesome teacher--but the whole thing still goes against my grain.  Perhaps I am the problem, though.  I found that the cost for my oldest to be in the teen group was the same as a parochial school around here.  Ha ha.

[...................]

I joke that it feels like a MLM homeschool. When I hear how people try to drag you in so they make money teaching your child and don't have to pay to teach their own--seems sketchy. One person in an area group is really scattered and poor at teaching--and was teaching ONE YEAR to get it cheap or free for her kids. She tried to get people to buy in and some did, but I feel like as homeschool moms, it would be fine to buy their products but feels weird to be charged so much--and then the materials become obsolete.

 

Having said that, a new gal I met is starting a group up--teaching only so that she can get like-minded moms and families involved so her kids have friends. She will probably be an awesome teacher--but the whole thing still goes against my grain. Perhaps I am the problem, though. I found that the cost for my oldest to be in the teen group was the same as a parochial school around here. Ha ha.

Hi, yes your thoughts are valid. Along with the good there's just that whole MLM feel. Yuck.

 

 

That's the second time someone said that...about parochial school being the same price. Really ? You have parochial schools which charge 1200/yr?

[backroadsmom]

:thumbup: My favorite phrase!

 

I felt like I lost many homeschooling friends to CC group. My co-op group dissolved couple years ago because many members moved to CC. My kids were puzzled that why many friends are all of sudden disappeared. I am sure it suits some families, but sad to see that homeschooling somewhat commercialized.

I agree that homeschooling is commercialized, but more than somewhat, imo. It is to the point that I sign up for someone's blog updates and get those and a whole bunch of ads that try to masquerade as mere chit chat.

 

One in particular never sent blog updates, just ads.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[backroadsmom]

preying on insecurities....(but that is not restricted to CC. It seems to be a homeschool marketing strategy.)

Yes. And if the insecurities don't exist, create them. There is probably a homeschool guru business advisor person out there selling a web course about 5 Easy Steps to Creating Insecurity From Nothing( and make big money too).

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[backroadsmom]

I feel like they've become the McDonald's of the homeschooling world. I'm all for people being happy but wow. Every time this thread comes up its an eye opener!!

McDonald's. That is funny. I actually thought Time4Leaning was the McDonald's...

 

CC may be more like Papa Murphy's. Edited from Donatos- getting confused. I think PM is a take it and bake it your own self place.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

Edited June 24, 2017 by backroadsmom

[OneStepAtATime]

Hi, yes your thoughts are valid. Along with the good there's just that whole MLM feel. Yuck.

 

 

That's the second time someone said that...about parochial school being the same price. Really ? You have parochial schools which charge 1200/yr?

Maybe I am misremembering but when I got the CC talk I thought the woman was mentioning $3000 (which is one of many reasons we didn't go with CC even though friends did).  There are private schools that charge that locally (3rd grade and younger, not later grades).  Not $1200 unless it is a private 4k, though.

[...................]

Maybe I am misremembering but when I got the CC talk I thought the woman was mentioning $3000 (which is one of many reasons we didn't go with CC even though friends did). There are private schools that charge that locally (3rd grade and younger, not later grades). Not $1200 unless it is a private 4k, though.

Challenge is 1250 and the price is standard nationwide, I believe. But that doesn't include materials, but you'd have to buy them anyway wherever you went.

 

In "average America" parochial school is about 7000.00 for 7-12th grade. That DOES include textbooks but not fees, uniforms. So, CC is about 1/6 the cost of parochial school.

 

However, it's definitely Papa Murphys. You have to teach, you have to grade, you have to grade all papers and tests. If the child doesn't understand, you have to hire a tutor, they can't email their "tutor" mid week.

 

So comparing CC and parochial school doesn't make sense anyway. :) That's like comparing Papa murphys (a raw freaking pizza) with your local Italian grandpa's pizza place. ...two different things.

 

But as I said able McDonalds, some people love it. Some people also love Papa Murphys. My husband was so incredulous he actually went in and asked if his wife was correct and do they indeed sell only raw pizza??? I myself tried it once and it flopped all over the place and almost fell on the floor trying to transfer it to my baking stone. I don't get it!!!

[G5052]

Locally, the university-model school has actually taken a lot of the CC Challenge folks as they've moved up into high school from what I've been told. In the coming year they'll have PK-11th.

 

They grade, you get a course website for assignments/contacting the teacher, and they have many classical choices in their curriculum. You can also do part-time or full-time. It's even accredited. Sure it costs more and is 3x a week for teens, but I've heard nothing but good about it. Private schools in our area are $10,000-30,000/year, and it's about $6,000.

 

Frankly if they had an established high school program when we were there, I would have gone forward teaching for them and put mine there.

Edited June 26, 2017 by G5052

[...................]

Locally, the university-model school has actually taken a lot of the CC Challenge folks as they've moved up into high school from what I've been told. In the coming year they'll have PK-11th.

 

They grade, you get a course website for assignments/contacting the teacher, and they have many classical choices in their curriculum. You can also do part-time or full-time. It's even accredited. Sure it costs more and is 3x a week for teens, but I've heard nothing but good about it. Private schools in our area are $10,000-30,000/year, and it's about $6,000.

 

Frankly if they had an established high school program when we were there, I would have gone forward teaching for them and put mine there.

Agreed. We have one 20 miles away here but the flow of traffic makes it so that I can't do it (1.5 hour commute) so we had to explore other options.

 

I think we will see more and more of these 2-3 day schools pop up.

[Loolamay]

Challenge is 1250 and the price is standard nationwide, I believe. But that doesn't include materials, but you'd have to buy them anyway wherever you went.

 

In "average America" parochial school is about 7000.00 for 7-12th grade. That DOES include textbooks but not fees, uniforms. So, CC is about 1/6 the cost of parochial school.

 

However, it's definitely Papa Murphys. You have to teach, you have to grade, you have to grade all papers and tests. If the child doesn't understand, you have to hire a tutor, they can't email their "tutor" mid week.

 

So comparing CC and parochial school doesn't make sense anyway. :) That's like comparing Papa murphys (a raw freaking pizza) with your local Italian grandpa's pizza place. ...two different things.

 

But as I said able McDonalds, some people love it. Some people also love Papa Murphys. My husband was so incredulous he actually went in and asked if his wife was correct and do they indeed sell only raw pizza??? I myself tried it once and it flopped all over the place and almost fell on the floor trying to transfer it to my baking stone. I don't get it!!!

 

Agreed that the comparison to parochial school is uneven. CC's only 1/6 the cost of a typical parochial school if you don't count that the upper level CC programs meet one day a week and the rest is at home and most parochial schools meet 5 days a week (so both parents could work if they needed to).  Extrapolate that CC cost out to five days a week and Ay chihuahua!

[...................]

I'm wondering if people experiencing zealous cc members and joining for the social network are from small homeschooling communities?

 

In my county (last I heard several years ago) we have about 9,000 kids with homeschool affidavits on file and no real regulation, so we have every kind of homeschooler you ever heard of around here.  Did cc find smaller communities and manage to market (aptly described as playing on insecurities) to enough of them so they had critical mass and became the norm?  I agree that all marketing is usually playing on insecurities and isn't something unique to cc. It's so weird to me that people would think they need to literally buy into that for community. 

 

Also, is it just me or do conservative evangelical women (I am one, so don't assume I'm prejudice against them) tend to like MLM schemes more than most people?  Between the jewelry, make up, purse and kitchen versions of MLM schemes, I run into them all the time at churches and in the homeschooling community.  I just don't get it.  Why would anyone limit themselves to what they can get at these small venues when the whole world of big box stores (Walmart, Target), amazon.com, and every mall in America exists?  I want to pick and choose from a world of options, not just what one company is peddling. 

You'll know within the SECOND time of meeting someone who's in an MLM....(whether it's purses, jewelry, pampered chef or CC)...because until you make it clear that you are NOT interested, they'll keep trying to "slyly" sell you stuff.  Send you notices on Facebook, add you to their mailing list, Invite you to their parties..

 

Even when I was dead broke I refuse to do that to my friends and acquaintances.  Half the time people buy something because they feel bad for you.  When we were struggling, I cleaned houses to afford piano.  They got a clean house, I got money for piano.  No one is pressured.  LOL

 

My hubby says, I should just keep 10.00 bills in my wallet, and when a friend or acquaintance starts with the MLM stuff, just get out the 10.00 and say, "...here this is for you."  I know his sentiment is a little unkind, but it's also a little unkind to turn every friendship and acquaintance you have into a sales situation.

[...................]

Agreed that the comparison to parochial school is uneven. CC's only 1/6 the cost of a typical parochial school if you don't count that the upper level CC programs meet one day a week and the rest is at home and most parochial schools meet 5 days a week (so both parents could work if they needed to).  Extrapolate that CC cost out to five days a week and Ay chihuahua!

goooood poinnnnttt!  I hadn't thought of it on a per - day basis.  Per day, CC does cost the same as a parochial school.  Bummer.  And you get moms who may or may not actually be experts rather than trained experience teachers expected to follow up with your student. 

 

I have some friends who recently started CC two years ago, split (of course), started a new campus and are both directors of Foundations and Challenge at their new campus.  The kids who go to their campus, are probably very lucky, for now, as these two are the kind who would take the time to absolutely master the material, and the dad is a VA Tech grad who is great at math anyway, and they probably studied the Latin for a few years alongside of/ahead of the kids.  

 

But ...the campus will split and some unlucky kids will get the newbies at the new campus next year, and the likelihood of them being as awesome as the first two directors they had is about nil, and so goes the story. 

Edited June 28, 2017 by Calming Tea

[happycc]

Is so tempting when you need a break lol

But then not as tempting because I can take a break just by hanging out with all of you online. 

Nah....I'll save my money and talk to you guys on the forum. TWTM cult LOL

[Loolamay]

You'll know within the SECOND time of meeting someone who's in an MLM....(whether it's purses, jewelry, pampered chef or CC)...because until you make it clear that you are NOT interested, they'll keep trying to "slyly" sell you stuff. Send you notices on Facebook, add you to their mailing list, Invite you to their parties..

 

Even when I was dead broke I refuse to do that to my friends and acquaintances. Half the time people buy something because they feel bad for you. When we were struggling, I cleaned houses to afford piano. They got a clean house, I got money for piano. No one is pressured. LOL

 

My hubby says, I should just keep 10.00 bills in my wallet, and when a friend or acquaintance starts with the MLM stuff, just get out the 10.00 and say, "...here this is for you." I know his sentiment is a little unkind, but it's also a little unkind to turn every friendship and acquaintance you have into a sales situation.

Ya, it's so hard to explain this to people who want to believe the hype, but CC is all kinds of trouble. I know there are "good campuses" We had one. HAD being operative, and it wasn't inexperienced teachers that made us leave. It was corporate's controlling behavior. I'm sure some of you have seen me all over the forums trying to tell my story. I get some hate for it, because the CC true believers are so... faithful. But there's nothing magical about CC just like there's nothing magical about Plexus or Rodan and Fields or whatever... Only reason I keep talking about it is because I keep hearing horror stories from new angles. But then the pushback comes and I feel like singing that Andre3000 song "Hey Ya" - you know the one from years ago that goes "Shake it like a Polaroid picture!" The song is about whether or not romantic love can last - a heavy subject - but the sound is all peppy and at one point Andre says, "Y'all don't wanna hear me; you just wanna dance." I think of that line all. the. time. Edited June 28, 2017 by AprilDianne

[nixpix5]

Ya, it's so hard to explain this to people who want to believe the hype, but CC is all kinds of trouble. I know there are "good campuses" We had one. HAD being operative, and it wasn't inexperienced teachers that made us leave. It was corporate's controlling behavior. I'm sure some of you have seen me all over the forums trying to tell my story. I get some hate for it, because the CC true believers are so... faithful. But there's nothing magical about CC just like there's nothing magical about Plexus or Rodan and Fields or whatever... Only reason I keep talking about it is because I keep hearing horror stories from new angles. But then the pushback comes and I feel like singing that Andre3000 song "Hey Ya" - you know the one from years ago that goes "Shake it like a Polaroid picture!" The song is about whether or not romantic love can last - a heavy subject - but the sound is all peppy and at one point Andre says, "Y'all don't wanna hear me; you just wanna dance." I think of that line all. the. time.

I think telling your story is so important because while one story does not guarantee others will experience it, many MANY stories adds more weight by increasing your sample size N value.

 

We were all set to jump on board a group in the fall and then I really started investigating. Once it received the foundations "curriculum" and looked at it I bailed. Too expensive just for the social group we were going to use it for and the curriculum was silly to me. I can sit at home and make my kids memorize random facts if I am so inclined to do so. I don't need to pay a lot of money for it.

 

Thank you, by the way, for that lovely song now looping through my head ;)

[G5052]

Agreed. We have one 20 miles away here but the flow of traffic makes it so that I can't do it (1.5 hour commute) so we had to explore other options.

 

I think we will see more and more of these 2-3 day schools pop up.

 

Yes, I see such a need for them in our area. Reportedly the local one has a waiting list for about 3/4 of their grades. It's a bridge program for those who don't want private school for whatever reason and more time at home.

 

Ours is all of 10 minutes away. I actually interviewed with them several years ago, and they REALLY wanted to hire me. I think that I would have been happy there. 

 

At the time, the schedule didn't work for us, but I wanted to investigate options because DH was making more noise about retiring early.  A good friend of mine was teaching there at the time and had given me a good breakdown of the positives and negatives.

[EmilyGF]

My sister (who has been a director and involved with CC for three years or so) said someone compared CC to AOL - a product that is appealing and exciting for a short time because it fills a need, not because it is excellent. She thinks that a better model will develop in the coming years and do to CC what innovation did to AOL. She has many frustrations with everything about CC, but it has filled a need she had for the last few years. 

 

Emily

[SparklyUnicorn]

You'll know within the SECOND time of meeting someone who's in an MLM....(whether it's purses, jewelry, pampered chef or CC)...because until you make it clear that you are NOT interested, they'll keep trying to "slyly" sell you stuff.  Send you notices on Facebook, add you to their mailing list, Invite you to their parties..

 

Even when I was dead broke I refuse to do that to my friends and acquaintances.  Half the time people buy something because they feel bad for you.  When we were struggling, I cleaned houses to afford piano.  They got a clean house, I got money for piano.  No one is pressured.  LOL

 

My hubby says, I should just keep 10.00 bills in my wallet, and when a friend or acquaintance starts with the MLM stuff, just get out the 10.00 and say, "...here this is for you."  I know his sentiment is a little unkind, but it's also a little unkind to turn every friendship and acquaintance you have into a sales situation.

 

Yeah actually this kinda hurts my feelings when people do this! I meet someone and think we hit it off and then they basically just try to sell me stuff!!!  :confused1:

[nixpix5]

Yeah actually this kinda hurts my feelings when people do this! I meet someone and think we hit it off and then they basically just try to sell me stuff!!! :confused1:

I had this happen a few months ago. I met, who I thought was a really sweet homeschool mom at a co-op orientation. We had a great conversation and she invited me to get a coffee the following week and chat curriculum. Sounded fun! We spent 2 hours chatting and I kept thinking "wow, I have so much in common with this mom" and then it came...she gave me the pitch. I left feeling used and violated. The worst part, when I said "no thank you" that was the end of our interactions. I run into her and she smiles politely but that is it. Another mom who I have become good friends with had the exact same interaction with her. It is just really confusing. I think I dislike it because you never know where you truly stand with someone. It reminds me of those old looney toon episodes where characters are stranded on an island and start seeing each other as turkey legs or steaks. Seriously...that is what it feels like. I run screaming from anyone who sells anything in a high pressure way.

[...................]

 It reminds me of those old looney toon episodes where characters are stranded on an island and start seeing each other as turkey legs or steaks. 

hahaha so true 

[yvonne]

My sister (who has been a director and involved with CC for three years or so) said someone compared CC to AOL - a product that is appealing and exciting for a short time because it fills a need, not because it is excellent. She thinks that a better model will develop in the coming years and do to CC what innovation did to AOL. She has many frustrations with everything about CC, but it has filled a need she had for the last few years. 

 

Emily

 

:iagree: :iagree:

 

I think when CC came out, it met a real need/desire for a "community" for many, both students and moms.  Better models are already starting to sprout up. MP's Cottage Schools, CAP's Schole communities, etc., may meet the community desire but also have better academics and better instructors.

 

When we did Foundations and Essentials, my boys LOVED the peer aspect. It was definitely something we did not get on our own at home nor in other peer activities like park days.  I'm an introvert, so socializing w/ other moms wasn't a driving factor for me, but it is for many more extroverted moms.

In hindsight, I see some real advantages to group learning, for SOME subjects and assuming the children in the group are at the same level, interested in the same subject matter. I would not dumb down just for social interaction.  We used CC purely as a supplement, an extracurricular.  It was something fun for the kids to do one day a week.

 

CC corporate made it easy to start a campus. They provided the infrastructure & the PR. It was plug-and-play simple. 

I think people try it and love it at the beginning, but then find that it's not an academic route they want to follow. They grow disenchanted with it as they discover that the corporate restrictions on it (can't hire the best tutors, tutors have to teach all subjects for their level even if they have no interest in one or two, tutors have to have kids in the program so every campus loses its best/most experienced tutors right when they have the most time and experience to tutor!...)   The CC restrictions benefit corporate's bottom line, but they hobble the local communities. At some point, the benefits of ease of set-up and ready-made PR will be outweighed by weak academics, lock-step academics, and inability to bring in the best teachers. I think it's reaching this point and, for this reason, other types of communities are popping up. It remains to be seen how successful those will be.

[Another Lynn]

Yvonne, everything you said exactly matches my experience/observations too.