A vent about being a "polite" woman.

[Guest]

 

 

It's ok not to be a touchy person, but that doesn't mean you won't have to suck it up from time to time and just smile and be nice, or that telling the person to bug off is some kind of evidence of strength.

 

"time to time" not to include ANY time you personally feel threatened. And yes, if you need to access inner strength to not stand there taking whatever every rando in the world thrusts into your lap, then it absolutely does produce evidence of strength.

[Guest]

A tap and a grab are absolutely different things. That they are being conflated here and elsewhere is patently ridiculous.

[wintermom]

Wow, really? If I'm absorbed in something and someone wants to get my attention, I'd much prefer a gentle touch on the arm than someone raising their voice to me. Someone raising their voice to me startles me and automatically gets my defenses up. I've done the gentle touch on the arm before to let someone know they've dropped something or that the line has moved ahead or whatever. That's not polite or friendly?

 

Why is it suddenly "raising their voice" to start a conversation?  That seems like a leap for no reason.  

[Bluegoat]

I mean, goodness, I've had elderly people I didn't know, on more than one occasion, talk to me about something while actually holding my hand between both of their hands.  Sometimes what they were saying doesn't make a lot of sense, either.

 

I am a pretty strong introvert.  But in these situations I try hard to make myself lean in, and put my hands on theirs, and really pay attention to what is being said and the care that is being extended.

 

My grandfather, who is 90, these days often stops people, especially people with kids, and gives them fliers for the aircraft museum he volunteers at.  It's his "thing" and totally well intentioned.  He tells them all about it, and I'm sure many aren't interested, especially since he likely can't hear what they say back all that well so it is a one-sided conversation.  He'll often touch people on the arm.

 

If people reacted as posters here are suggesting, he'd be completely devastated and humiliated.

Edited February 7, 2017 by Bluegoat

[SKL]

I don't know that it's "nice girl syndrome."  I think sometimes it's just shock, being in a situation you never anticipated and don't have a plan for.  Also, wondering if this is actually "danger" or just "odd."  Or intuitively knowing that things will get even less comfortable if you assert your personal space vs. waiting for him to move along.

 

Different in-born personalities handle these things differently also.  I know some very polite women who would back off instantly in a situation like that.  And some more awkward women who would freeze and wonder what they should do.  Men too.

[SKL]

I also don't mind people touching me briefly.  But a hand lingering on my arm throughout a conversation is not regular friendly stuff - not from a normal neurotypical adult.

[ILiveInFlipFlops]

Maybe this is a regional difference.  I am not comfortable with arm touches from strangers, and would certainly not do that to anyone else.  But I grew up in New York.

 

 

I grew up about 45 minutes from Manhattan, so in the same culture. I'm also not a physically demonstrative person in general. This still wouldn't bother me--again, maybe because literally every older person I know does it, so it seems to be a trait of a certain generation. I don't in any way equate it with a grab or a pat on the behind or someone physically barring my way, as others have. Those things are all unacceptable to me, by anyone. But someone resting their hand on my arm while they're talking to me, especially an elderly person, doesn't set any alarms off for me. 

[Jean in Newcastle]

It seems like a polite but firm "Thank you for your concern.  Please let go of my arm."  should be the first resort, not screaming for someone to back away. 

[ILiveInFlipFlops]

I mean, goodness, I've had elderly people I didn't know, on more than one occasion, talk to me about something while actually holding my hand between both of their hands.  Sometimes what they were saying doesn't make a lot of sense, either.

 

I am a pretty strong introvert.  But in these situations I try hard to make myself lean in, and put my hands on theirs, and really pay attention to what is being said and the care that is being extended.

 

My grandfather, who is 90, these days often stops people, especially kids, and gives them fliers for the aircraft museum he volunteers at.  It's his "thing" and totally well intentioned.  He tells them all about it, and I'm sure many aren't interested, especially since he likely can't hear what they say back all that well so it is a one-sided conversation.  He'll often touch people on the arm.

 

If people reacted as posters here are suggesting, he'd be completely devastated and humiliated.

 

 

I agree. My experiences are very similar. 

[Bluegoat]

"time to time" not to include ANY time you personally feel threatened. And yes, if you need to access inner strength to not stand there taking whatever every rando in the world thrusts into your lap, then it absolutely does produce evidence of strength.

 

Yeah, it can.  Engaging the frontal cortex is actually required.  Feelings are not an excuse for inappropriate or unkind actions.  A older man touching you while saying you could run into touble is not a rational thing to feel threatened by in a grocery store, simply on the basis that he is touching you.

 

The man sounds like he was a few cans short of a two-four, not like he was dangerous. 

[Guest]

I mean, goodness, I've had elderly people I didn't know, on more than one occasion, talk to me about something while actually holding my hand between both of their hands.  Sometimes what they were saying doesn't make a lot of sense, either.

 

I am a pretty strong introvert.  But in these situations I try hard to make myself lean in, and put my hands on theirs, and really pay attention to what is being said and the care that is being extended.

 

My grandfather, who is 90, these days often stops people, especially kids, and gives them fliers for the aircraft museum he volunteers at.  It's his "thing" and totally well intentioned.  He tells them all about it, and I'm sure many aren't interested, especially since he likely can't hear what they say back all that well so it is a one-sided conversation.  He'll often touch people on the arm.

 

If people reacted as posters here are suggesting, he'd be completely devastated and humiliated.

 

Does your grandfather grab people and not let go?

 

No?

 

 

 

I also make it a point to stop and speak to ANYONE who wants to speak to me that doesn't make me feel threatened, regardless of their age. Always.

[ILiveInFlipFlops]

Why is it suddenly "raising their voice" to start a conversation?  That seems like a leap for no reason.  

 

 

I don't mean raising their voice as in yelling at me. I mean raising their voice as in they've said "excuse me" a couple of times already and are trying to be heard. If I'm in the grocery store, absorbed in looking at labels, and someone wants to get past me or reach something in front of me and doesn't want to be rude, I'm generally not going to hear them because I'm lost in my own thoughts. I've had it happen to me, and I've accidentally done it to other people. That's why I started doing the arm touch if they're not able to hear me at a reasonably quiet voice level or if we're in a place where the ambient noise level is pretty high (elevator music, people talking, etc.).

 

And again, we're talking about an elderly person here. Different generation, different social norms, less of an ability to adapt overall, especially when it comes to something fairly neutral like a hand on an arm during a conversation. Sometimes I wonder if they do it as a physical stabilizer as well. I've had many a conversation about gardening with my grandmother's 90-year-old "boyfriend" where he has hand on my forearm the whole time. 

[Guest]

Yeah, it can.  Engaging the frontal cortex is actually required.  Feelings are not an excuse for inappropriate or unkind actions.  A older man touching you while saying you could run into touble is not a rational thing to feel threatened by in a grocery store, simply on the basis that he is touching you.

 

The man sounds like he was a few cans short of a two-four, not like he was dangerous. 

 

Telling someone to stop touching you is not UNKIND or INAPPROPRIATE.

 

This is the whole, entire point in a nutshell.

 

I tell my own freaking kids not to touch me sometimes. Or husband, or mom! Much less strangers for crying out loud.

 

It's so weird how woman doesn't want to be grabbed and held on to by a stranger== over the top crazy *emotonal* (eye roll) reaction in some people's minds.

[ILiveInFlipFlops]

A tap and a grab are absolutely different things. That they are being conflated here and elsewhere is patently ridiculous.

 

You are right. And Carrie didn't say he grabbed her. She said he had his hand on her arm. If she said he had her by the hand or the wrist or that he was holding her by the arm, my response would be different. But once again, every elderly person I know, male or female, familiar to me or stranger, does this to me when I talk to them. They do it to my DH too, so it's not gender-related as far as I can see. 

[Frosch]

The above read tells me that someone was explaining to you and others  that they have different personal boundaries than you do.

 

The *OP* is about someone getting in and staying in a stranger's personal space, which is self-evidently NOT the same as a light touch on the arm. THAT some people do not like light touches on the arm has no bearing on the original scenario being discussed. You deliberately muddied the waters by equating your arm thing to what the OP experienced, which i condescending to the OP in its own right.

 

HEAVY SIGH  :glare:

 The OP in her very first post said nothing except that he put his hand on her.  She didn't say grabbed or gripped or groped.  She didn't even say *where* the man touched her.

 

Others have muddied the waters by using those terms.  I don't see you berating them over it.

 

*I* only said that I had no problem with someone touching my lightly on the arm. 

 

Yes, I shared my "arm thing." Others shared their butt and boob grabs and threats of physical violence.  

[poppy]

The thing is, we have to take this situation as a whole, rather than trying to discuss the merits of individual parts. A complete stranger walked up to her, put his hand on her, presumably on her shoulder, upper arm, that sort of thing, held it there and proceeded to lecture her about how she was doing something unsafe and how she needs to get a gun to protect herself.

 

It's not the touch in and of itself that is the major issue. It's not the concern for her safety that is the major issue here. Nor is it the fact that he was lecturing her, or telling that she needs a gun.

 

It's the whole situation together. It IS an uncomfortable situation. And because of that, it is absolutely ok to communicate, in some way, to the other person 'hey, you are making me uncomfortable, stop.' That doesn't mean that communication should include screaming or kicking or some other loud and defensive action. But neither does it mean that the OP doesn't have a right to communicate it at all.

 

What a sinister spin on this little grocery store encounter.  Really!  If you mention the gun part of the conversion, you should also mention that before that he assured he she was safe..  And that they are in a market, with other people.

[ILiveInFlipFlops]

 That doesn't mean that communication should include screaming or kicking or some other loud and defensive action. But neither does it mean that the OP doesn't have a right to communicate it at all.

 

 

I absolutely agree with you. And I don't think she would have been wrong to take several steps away or even walk away, frankly. Our comfort level is our comfort level, whatever it may be. I just think it's OK to acknowledge that there are nuances in a situation and react accordingly. I wouldn't react to an elderly man trying to give me advice in a grocery store in the same way I'd react to a bar patron who grabbed my boob or a guy on the street who tried to stop me from walking by. 

[LucyStoner]

If someone is uncomfortable being touched, they don't need to justify that. Sometimes it may or may not be threatening but newsflash: it doesn't need to be threatening to be unwelcome. Too often we confate setting and enforcing boundaries with rudeness and I call BS on that.

 

I've learned to simply move away slightly when someone touches me in a neutral spot and I'm not ok with it. If that doesn't break their contact, then I firmly remove their hand and tell them not to touch me. If they persist, I will (and have) told people to stop before I make them stop. If someone touches me in non-neutral spots (groping) I go right to making them stop. This is aided by a carefully cultivated look that says "I will break your arm if you touch me like that again".

 

I don't feel guilty and I don't consider it rude to not give random unknown people my time or attention. My body is not public domain. I don't go around touching people without permission and I expect the same from others.

 

To the OP- it takes time to undo the cultural training to just giggle and be "polite". It took me about a year, after some dicey encounters on public transportation, to get to the point where I could comfortably detach from situations like you described. I found martial arts and self defense classes very helpful. Not to threaten the seemingly innocuous dudes but just to be comfortable enforcing my own boundaries.

Edited February 7, 2017 by LucyStoner

[Supertechmom]

If you were freaking out inside, and yet could only giggle and not break the physical contact, then I believe some self-defense and/or martial arts training would be really helpful. For you, this seems to have been more than feeling a little annoying, and you felt genuinely threatened, yet unable to do anything about it. I think this goes beyond being a "polite woman" and is actually into territory where you just do not know what to do. You can learn what to do, though.

 

Learning some simple techniques to deal with these and more threatening situations, would be really useful. Actually role-playing various possible moves is really good, as your body has a much better chance of actually responding in a situation when your mind is numb and surprised.

 

I agree with this.  When I was a teenager, there was a serial rapist on the college campus where I took night classes.  Security was very beefed up and the college held a series of self defense classes.  And my boss, a concerned older man with one son and a passel of girls and god knows how  many  granddaughters made sure I had the time to attend every one of them as well as had his son show me a variety of moves in the office (ex military). Not to mention the training my own dad and brothers gave.  The self defense class though was the best.   Years later, I still carry out those techniques taught.  My niece one time told me I walk like I mean business and I thought ...that's what I was taught.  Carry yourself out and about like you could stop an elephant in mid charge.   I personally feel that three times over my life I have avoided a mugging just because of how I was taught to walk and interact in a parking lot. I know I have stopped two kidnapping attempts on my kids just because of that self defense class. Walk tall, look people in the eye, and scan the area constantly, keys in hand and items positioned so one can fight back.  Strangers just don't feel comfortable laying a hand on me.  I don't give out that vibe anymore. The self defense class went over all that body language stuff and how one person is seen as approachable by a perv while skipping over others.  It was a combination of self defense techniques and a lot of how to overcome polite woman syndrome that gets women killed.

 

Now of course that doesn't work on those just mentally off or the elderly slipping into dementia.  But those techniques I learned to extract myself from situations work.  Step into their space and turn enough to get out of their grip. You can do stuff like that and still be "polite" while making sure you are in a safe spot so to speak without hurting feelings (Deep south so hurt feelings crop up especially with the elderly)

 

 

Wow, really? If I'm absorbed in something and someone wants to get my attention, I'd much prefer a gentle touch on the arm than someone raising their voice to me. Someone raising their voice to me startles me and automatically gets my defenses up. I've done the gentle touch on the arm before to let someone know they've dropped something or that the line has moved ahead or whatever. That's not polite or friendly?

 Nope, it isn't.   With a perv, it is a grooming technique.  How much can I touch this woman before she becomes concerned?  Light tap, harder tap, full hand on upper arm, hold hands, full frontal approach while holding onto upper arm.....it's a response checker. First thing self defense taught was a light tap should immediately concern you to get your back against something or toward complete freedom if you know no one is behind you and arms up and feet spaced firmly with weight on the back leg. Put yourself in position for fight or flight.  And never let someone no matter their age hold your attention in public space while your back is open.  

 

That doesn't mean you are rude or think every single interaction in public is dangerous.  but it does  mean you ensure your own safety is paramount over the feelings of a complete stranger!! 

 

The OP didn't know this man.  This wasn't an elderly church member, neighbor or other vaguely known seen before so and so's grandpa. This was a stranger in a public space. The elderly do put their hands on people to steady themselves but that doesn't mean the OP should not consider her safety FIRST. Elderly people can be very strong.  I've had my ass kicked by an elderly patient.  Three other nurses were holding him back and he still managed to ring my bell. Out in public, an elderly man with harmful intent could still take out a smaller woman.  Don't underestimate the strength of the elderly.

[Tanaqui]

That is how I read the post that suggested she say 'Back off! Stop touching me!" while glaring at him like he is insane.

 

How, exactly, would you suggest she tell people to back off and stop touching her without using those words?

[Supertechmom]

What a sinister spin on this little grocery store encounter.  Really!  If you mention the gun part of the conversion, you should also mention that before that he assured he she was safe..  And that they are in a market, with other people.

 

 

Because assuring a woman she is safe is the first thing someone with bad intent is going to say. Self defense class labels this a red flag.  It is stated to get you to let your guard down.   My response would be I'll fee safer when you remove your hand and step out of reach.   

[Bluegoat]

Does your grandfather grab people and not let go?

 

No?

 

 

 

I also make it a point to stop and speak to ANYONE who wants to speak to me that doesn't make me feel threatened, regardless of their age. Always.

 

My grandad will often hold people's elbows if they are women and their hands in a handshake style if they are men.

 

And as I said, I've had many elderly people, and once a drunk mentally ill person, hold my hand while speaking to me - as in, not let go.

 

Here is the thing - physical contact is a physiological need for human beings.  We don't do well without it.

 

But there are certain groups of people who are essentially starved for human physical contact.  The elderly, the mentally ill, the mentally and physically disabled.  In fact many people cringe away from contact from these people, and that impacts their mental health very negatively.

 

I really cannot understand advocating for community services, and social welfare, and public housing, and state care for people, in the name of their humanity, while refusing to touch them during social contact.  We'll give money to or volunteer for a program for dogs to visit people so they can get physical contact but are barely willing to even momentarily touch them ourselves in a public setting. 

 

I think these people are actually more normal about touch, and our society has become sick and abnormal and mentally ill.  Our responses of discomfort and surprise are real but the result of living in the condition of social illness, and also contribute to it.  We become fearful and uncomfortable about crazy things, like being murdered by refugees, or our kids being kidnapped at the playground - but that doesn't make being reactionary to these feelings of discomfort appropriate, and in fact they too contribute to further dysfunction and create more social fragmentation, fear, and isolation.  People need to learn when that sense of threat or discomfort is an inappropriate learned response and when it isn't, and the only way to even begin to get over it is to choose to ignore it when it doesn't make sense.

[Guest]

I'm trying to imagine some dude touching my husband without breaking contact, and then people on the internet telling him he's using his feelings to respond not his rational brain if he says "don't touch me."

 

And: :laugh: :laugh: . Yeah, no.

[LucyStoner]

Assuming someone is safe because of their age is problematic. If I started writing a list of negative interactions I've had with not innocent old men, I wouldn't get anything else done today. So I will spare you and myself the list but seriously: elderly stranger doesn't mean safe stranger. For just one example: a man brushing up with elderly offered to demonstrate that he could "get it in" to fifteen year old me. He saw me on the bus and followed me off on my way to school.

 

Old doesn't mean harmless. Don't teach your daughters that old means harmless.

[Guest]

My grandad will often hold people's elbows if they are women and their hands in a handshake style if they are men.

 

And as I said, I've had many elderly people, and once a drunk mentally ill person, hold my hand while speaking to me - as in, not let go.

 

Here is the thing - physical contact is a physiological need for human beings.  We don't do well without it.

 

But there are certain groups of people who are essentially starved for human physical contact.  The elderly, the mentally ill, the mentally and physically disabled.  In fact many people cringe away from contact from these people, and that impacts their mental health very negatively.

 

I really cannot understand advocating for community services, and social welfare, and public housing, and state care for people, in the name of their humanity, while refusing to touch them during social contact.  We'll give money to or volunteer for a program for dogs to visit people so they can get physical contact but are barely willing to even momentarily touch them ourselves in a public setting. 

 

I think these people are actually more normal about touch, and our society has become sick and abnormal and mentally ill.  Our responses of discomfort and surprise are real but the result of living in the condition of social illness, and also contribute to it.  We become fearful and uncomfortable about crazy things, like being murdered by refugees, or our kids being kidnapped at the playground - but that doesn't make being reactionary to these feelings of discomfort appropriate, and in fact they too contribute to further dysfunction and create more social fragmentation, fear, and isolation.  People need to learn when that sense of threat or discomfort is an inappropriate learned response and when it isn't, and the only way to even begin to get over it is to choose to ignore it when it doesn't make sense.

 

"leap, leap, leap, leap, leap. BTW you're sick and abnormal is you don't want some strangers to touch you. More leaps about kidnapping concerns and refugee-fear."

 

[Tanaqui]

I don't know. I can't see that this man was threatening in any way, so I tend to think being polite was the rational response.

 

There is nothing impolite about asserting your personal boundaries - whether or not the other person is being threatening.

 

I'm not convinced that a no-touch culture is actually very healthy.

 

There is a difference between having a healthy respect for personal space and being a "no-touch culture". I touch people all the time. However, except when it is a legitimate safety issue - like grabbing a child before they fall off the platform on a train station - I don't touch them without their consent.

 

My grandfather, who is 90, these days often stops people, especially people with kids, and gives them fliers for the aircraft museum he volunteers at.  It's his "thing" and totally well intentioned.  He tells them all about it, and I'm sure many aren't interested, especially since he likely can't hear what they say back all that well so it is a one-sided conversation.  He'll often touch people on the arm.

 

Is he touching them and continuing to touch them?

 

Feelings are not an excuse for inappropriate or unkind actions.

 

Then this man's feelings that she needed to be condescended to are not an excuse for his inappropriate actions.

 

And it is always appropriate to assert your own personal boundaries.

 

[poppy]

Because assuring a woman she is safe is the first thing someone with bad intent is going to say. Self defense class labels this a red flag.  It is stated to get you to let your guard down.   My response would be I'll fee safer when you remove your hand and step out of reach.   

 

Sounds like the conversation went "you should watch out for your pocketbook. It is safe here, but if you were in that other town, you wouldn't be. You'd need a gun!"

A reasonable response in my view would be to say something like "OK.  Excuse me. I'm going to the next aisle".   Leave off the "OK" if you wish.

That's where I'm coming from.

[Tanaqui]

sinister? I wasn't trying to make it sound "sinister." I was actually trying to give what I thought was a pretty basic retelling of what the OP described.

 

See, that's what made it sound sinister. Because it IS inappropriate to do that to people in a public space.

Edited February 7, 2017 by Tanaqui

[Guest]

 

 

And it is always appropriate to assert your own personal boundaries.

 

 

 

 

...always always always always always always always always always always

Edited February 7, 2017 by OKBud

[LucyStoner]

My grandad will often hold people's elbows if they are women and their hands in a handshake style if they are men.

 

And as I said, I've had many elderly people, and once a drunk mentally ill person, hold my hand while speaking to me - as in, not let go.

 

Here is the thing - physical contact is a physiological need for human beings. We don't do well without it.

 

But there are certain groups of people who are essentially starved for human physical contact. The elderly, the mentally ill, the mentally and physically disabled. In fact many people cringe away from contact from these people, and that impacts their mental health very negatively.

 

I really cannot understand advocating for community services, and social welfare, and public housing, and state care for people, in the name of their humanity, while refusing to touch them during social contact. We'll give money to or volunteer for a program for dogs to visit people so they can get physical contact but are barely willing to even momentarily touch them ourselves in a public setting.

 

I think these people are actually more normal about touch, and our society has become sick and abnormal and mentally ill. Our responses of discomfort and surprise are real but the result of living in the condition of social illness, and also contribute to it. We become fearful and uncomfortable about crazy things, like being murdered by refugees, or our kids being kidnapped at the playground - but that doesn't make being reactionary to these feelings of discomfort appropriate, and in fact they too contribute to further dysfunction and create more social fragmentation, fear, and isolation. People need to learn when that sense of threat or discomfort is an inappropriate learned response and when it isn't, and the only way to even begin to get over it is to choose to ignore it when it doesn't make sense.

I'm the last person on this board to be afraid of kidnapping risk (and I say this as someone who actually was the target of an attempted kidnapping by a man who went to jail for it).

 

I touch people and let people touch me all the time. I don't feel obligated to do so and if I want it to stop, it stops.

 

Where do you get off associating boundaries with rudeness and having boundaries with being heartless and fearful?

 

You really could not be more wrong.

[Charlie]

My grandad will often hold people's elbows if they are women and their hands in a handshake style if they are men.

 

And as I said, I've had many elderly people, and once a drunk mentally ill person, hold my hand while speaking to me - as in, not let go.

 

Here is the thing - physical contact is a physiological need for human beings.  We don't do well without it.

 

But there are certain groups of people who are essentially starved for human physical contact.  The elderly, the mentally ill, the mentally and physically disabled.  In fact many people cringe away from contact from these people, and that impacts their mental health very negatively.

 

I really cannot understand advocating for community services, and social welfare, and public housing, and state care for people, in the name of their humanity, while refusing to touch them during social contact.  We'll give money to or volunteer for a program for dogs to visit people so they can get physical contact but are barely willing to even momentarily touch them ourselves in a public setting. 

 

I think these people are actually more normal about touch, and our society has become sick and abnormal and mentally ill.  Our responses of discomfort and surprise are real but the result of living in the condition of social illness, and also contribute to it.  We become fearful and uncomfortable about crazy things, like being murdered by refugees, or our kids being kidnapped at the playground - but that doesn't make being reactionary to these feelings of discomfort appropriate, and in fact they too contribute to further dysfunction and create more social fragmentation, fear, and isolation.  People need to learn when that sense of threat or discomfort is an inappropriate learned response and when it isn't, and the only way to even begin to get over it is to choose to ignore it when it doesn't make sense.

 

It is not the responsibility of any man, woman, or child to offer up their body to function as free human physical contact for those who demand or even need it. The answer to loneliness in an increasingly populated city is not to let strangers touch you against your will.

 

I think our society has become emboldened to say "no" when someone feels threatened, and that's a good thing. I think our society has become emboldened to teach our children to recognize and expect respect as well as dole it out. I think our society has become healthy in that we are allowed to process and demand and end to negative experiences rather than be expected to tuck them away and never "burden" others, even the aggressor, with thoughts that might bum them out.

 

People also need to learn that everyone has different experiences and emotional and physical reactions to the same stimuli. What works for you may not, and indeed does not have to work for someone else. I've never been raped, molested, or sexually or physically abused in any way and I recognize that my reactions may not be similar to the OP's or anyone else's. Nor should my reaction be the standard around which everyone should agree is "normal" or "healthy."

 

OP's body. OP's choice about how it is used, and with whom.

[Bluegoat]

I'm trying to imagine some dude touching my husband without breaking contact, and then people on the internet telling him he's using his feelings to respond not his rational brain if he says "don't touch me."

 

And: :laugh: :laugh: . Yeah, no.

 

That doesn't sound improbable to me, and if they wouldn't, they should.  The feeling thing was about the OP being uncomfortable - that is a feeling, not something that was a rational judgement that it was a dangerous situation.  You yourself said that if someone feels threatened, that is enough.  The idea that people are saying a negative feeling is enough isn't something that's been made up.

 

If some man made the same argument, that was so uncomfortable being touched in the same way the OP described - with someone who seems to be acting in a way pretty standard for the elderly - that he wished he could behave in an assertive way and tell him to bug off, I'd probably be a lot less sympathetic because he was a man - I'd think he was acting like an ass. 

 

Maybe if people don't say this to men, its because they don't try and make that kind of claim.

[LucyStoner]

My valuables are on my body, not in a purse. If someone comments on the safety of my bag, I'll (jokingly) tell them to go ahead and steal my bag. Super valuable: used book, paper, pens, snacks and general crap. My phone, keys and money are in my front pockets.

[Supertechmom]

How, exactly, would you suggest she tell people to back off and stop touching her without using those words?

 

Simply move their hand.  Step out of reach.   Say Oh You startled me by touching me????   It all depends on the situation and the vibe one feels.  

 

Sometimes, those words are the very first go to because your gut tells you it's about to go down.

 

Sometimes, you know it is just an innocent encounter and your own issues create the discomfort. Dig deep and use the polite words to overcome your own inner rant.

 

Sometimes, who cares?  Its a stranger touching you in public.  Maybe he's creating a situation so others in the store will remember the nice elderly man was with you on aisle 7.  Then when the grandson hauls your ass out of the store because you suddenly got sick (he drugged you), nobody in the store questions the encounter until the police show up the next day and review video footage.  

 

Sometimes, you overreacted and scared the crap out of a nice elderly man who was trying to keep a woman he saw from  a habit that could cause her trouble from the not so nice man.

 

Does it matter???  If you feel uncomfortable with a stranger, does it really matter whether your reaction is polite, justifiable, or over top??? Who cares???  If I see a woman having what I think is an over the top reaction to someone, I think I don't know the story  and I bet he'll think twice about approaching another woman in a store.

[LucyStoner]

it is totally possible to be assertive and polite at the same time. Something like "please let go, I am going to finish my shopping now."

I don't say please for non-optional, non-negotiable limits. Not with my kids. Not with people who touch me. It's not his decision to comply with my request, because it's not a request.

 

I don't find "let go of my arm" to be rude. Direct need not be classified as rude.

Edited February 7, 2017 by LucyStoner

[eternalsummer]

An older man came up to me at a Whole Foods last year, put his arm around me, and said that I was obviously a good Christian girl because I was wearing a long skirt and Jesus likes his girls to wear skirts.  I also sort of smiled and nodded, and wished afterward that I'd at least told him I didn't think Jesus liked men touching other men's wives.  

 

I'm not even Christian!

Edited February 7, 2017 by ananemone

[Guest]

That doesn't sound improbable to me, and if they wouldn't, they should.  The feeling thing was about the OP being uncomfortable - that is a feeling, not something that was a rational judgement that it was a dangerous situation.  You yourself said that if someone feels threatened, that is enough.  The idea that people are saying a negative feeling is enough isn't something that's been made up.

 

.

 

What?

 

I feel like you're imagining all the glorious harmless old people you've come across. And evidently all the hypothetical, harmless, touch-starved homeless people on the planet???

 

How about just assume the OP felt uncomfortable because her run in wasn't with any of those specific people.

[Tanaqui]

it is totally possible to be assertive and polite at the same time. Something like "please let go, I am going to finish my shopping now."

He wasn't being polite. Lecturing a grown-up on safety, while touching them? Super rude. If you want to start with the please, you can - but it's not impolite to respond on the same level.

 

The feeling thing was about the OP being uncomfortable - that is a feeling, not something that was a rational judgement that it was a dangerous situation.

 

Our intuition and our feelings are our brain reacting before we can consciously process information. In-the-moment they are just as important as our "rational judgment" - perhaps more so. When things go bad, you no longer will have time to carefully weigh options.

 

It is not the responsibility of any man, woman, or child to offer up their body to function as free human physical contact for those who demand or even need it. The answer to loneliness in an increasingly populated city is not to let strangers touch you against your will.

 

Indeed. This idea that it is, or ought to be, is how you get creepy "incels" like Elliott Rodger who think that all women everywhere owe them sex. (No joke, that's what they think, because it's a "basic human need".)

 

You know what my sister said after his shooting spree? She said he was kinda hot. Had a nice car. Hot guy, nice car - she said, if he couldn't get laid, he must've had some seriously creepy vibes going on. He got rejected as a dating prospect because people used their feelings instead of their rational judgment. And good thing, too! Can't imagine that date going well.

 

My mom met Son of Sam. She told me the story once. She nearly went off with him because she felt sorry for the loser - but that was her rational judgment talking, not her feelings screaming "OMG SO CREEPY".

[Guest]

I don't say please for non-optional, non-negotiatiable limits. Not with my kids. Not with people who touch me. It's not his decision to comply with my request, because it's not a request.

 

I don't find "let go of my arm" to be rude. Direct need not be classified as rude.

 

Right.

 

It's NOT RUDE TO HAVE BOUNDARIES and say them out loud. Full stop the end not rude.

[LucyStoner]

The other thing to consider is that you don't know why someone reacts in a way you might think is hair trigger or over the top.

 

I am not a safe person to startle. Putting your arm around me in a public spot when I don't know who you are and telling me Jesus likes his girls in long skirts? That's a great way to get my hard elbow in your solar plexus and my harder knee in your groin. My male relatives and friends know not to startle me.

 

I am a child rape survivor. I don't owe anyone a pretty lady like demure polite response. And I'm not sorry. I don't live in fear but part of that is because I know how to take care of myself.

[SKL]

I would be more likely to back / walk a few steps away rather than say "don't touch me."  Either works.  If words need to be said, my go-to would be "excuse me" while backing away.

[SKL]

I have a friend who has a reflex to whack first and ask questions later.  LOL.  She is not impolite at all, just really really needs her space.  :P  Once my then-10yo sister learned this first-hand.

[Bluegoat]

I'm the last person on this board to be afraid of kidnapping risk (and I say this as someone who actually was the target of an attempted kidnapping by a man who went to jail for it).

 

I touch people and let people touch me all the time. I don't feel obligated to do so and if I want it to stop, it stops.

 

Where do you get off associating boundaries with rudeness and having boundaries with being heartless and fearful?

 

You really could not be more wrong.

 

You aren't everyone, though.  If I were to guess, you have a good sense of the difference between feeling personally uncomfortable, and a sense that something is not quite right, and would be kind to people in the former case, either allowing them (say) to touch your arm while you spoke, or taking it away gently without causing them embarrassment. 

 

I don't think that's what was described in the op post.  And I don't think that is what people are saying when they say any stranger touching you is inappropriate, especially if it is more than brief, or that it is ok to respond to such people in a "not polite" way, or that any sense of being uncomfortable should translate to an appropriate personal boundary.

 

This is a very typical type of behavior seen in the elderly in terms both of touching and the attempt to connect by being helpful, in a public place with other people around, and yet the reactions range from suggesting a rather rude rebuttal to saying be careful, the elderly can be strong, or touching without consent is wrong so he may well be a bad man.  Yes, it is possible he was looking to cop a feel - chances are, he isn't, and if he did you could still tell him to piss off. 

 

That is irrational fearfulness, and being unwilling to touch someone in a social interaction is unkind.  Probably not consciously so, but there is a reason that certain classes of people are the ones no one touches.  It's not usually because people say to themselves, oh, I don't want to touch the elderly demented.  It's because those people tend to be socially isolated to a greater degree, and they act and look in a way that makes others feel uncomfortable.

 

And I do think our culture is abnormally oriented to touch and I think that's something we can see when we look at other cultures, or other primates for that matter, and is supported by the research.  It likely comes from the British who have also very reserved culture of social touching, but it's been over-laid by this aspect of fear of predators and sexual exploitation in recent years, where it seems ok for reserve to turn into moral indignation.  I think its the latter that's really the problem.

[Catwoman]

I haven't read the whole thread, but Carrie, how can you be so sure you didn't do exactly the right thing? Everything turned out fine. Maybe your instinct to smile and play along was the perfect response in that particular situation.

 

I have every confidence that if the guy had become overtly threatening, you would have taken action, but he didn't. You diffused what could have become a confrontational situation in a peaceful and friendly way.

 

I'm not saying that there weren't other ways to have handled the situation, but perhaps it was worth letting the man get away with putting his hand on your arm in order to not provoke a more aggressive situation. I wouldn't say that if you weren't in the middle of a store, but fortunately you were in a place where you could have gotten help immediately if necessary.

 

I think anyone would have been uncomfortable in that situation, but I don't think you should beat yourself up for the way you handled it.

[Guest]

I haven't read the whole thread, but Carrie, how can you be so sure you didn't do exactly the right thing? Everything turned out fine. Maybe your instinct to smile and play along was the perfect response in that particular situation.

 

I have every confidence that if the guy had become overtly threatening, you would have taken action, but he didn't. You diffused what could have become a confrontational situation in a peaceful and friendly way.

 

I'm not saying that there weren't other ways to have handled the situation, but perhaps it was worth letting the man get away with putting his hand on your arm in order to not provoke a more aggressive situation. I wouldn't say that if you weren't in the middle of a store, but fortunately you were in a place where you could have gotten help immediately if necessary.

 

I think anyone would have been uncomfortable in that situation, but I don't think you should beat yourself up for the way you handled it.

 

+1

[LucyStoner]

I don't think of using the word please as "making a request." But, I also don't think "let go, I am going to finish my shopping now" is rude either.

Please is a favor, please is a negotiating word for many.

 

More importantly men who invade the personal space of women rely on giggles, non-confrontation and traditional signifiers of manners. A simple direct statement with all hints of request removed is less expected and more likely to be taken seriously. Not saying please in situations like this is key to setting boundaries and is often part of self defense classes.

 

Consider that a woman is walking away from a man who she feels bothered by. What sounds more serious "please go away", "please leave me alone" or "go away", "leave me alone"?

 

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/ambigamy/200902/please-and-thank-you-stop-saying-them-so-much-please

Edited February 7, 2017 by LucyStoner

[Greta]

After the Midnight Mass on Christmas Eve (so, nearly 2 in the morning - in downtown) dh and I are loading up the kids and someone grabs me from behind as I was turning around. Before anyone could react the "poor" man sustained a left cross to the face and I was just about to apply my knee to his family jewels.

 

He managed to croak out that he was a parishioner who wanted a word with dh about some Knights of Columbus thing. Dh, who recognized him, told him the take home lesson is to never grab a woman from behind. Ever. Especially if she's worked on the streets in emergency services for two decades.

 

Apparently, he complained to the rector. Meh. Although, to be fair, when he heard what really happened, the rector sided with me.

 

 

Since no thoughtful person with pure intentions grabs a woman from behind in a downtown parking lot at 2am, I wonder if he thought it would be funny to scare you.  I am so impressed that you had the right instincts to teach him that there's nothing funny about it.

 

This thread is really making me want to take a self-defense course.  Not because I want the ability to beat the crap out of someone, but because I want the confidence of knowing that I could fight, or at least that I would not freeze, which is my fear.

[gardenmom5]

What a sinister spin on this little grocery store encounter.  Really!  If you mention the gun part of the conversion, you should also mention that before that he assured he she was safe..  And that they are in a market, with other people.

 

yeah . . . and ted bundy assured those girls to whom he gave (their last) ride he was safe . . .

 

I agree with this.  When I was a teenager, there was a serial rapist on the college campus where I took night classes.  Security was very beefed up and the college held a series of self defense classes.  And my boss, a concerned older man with one son and a passel of girls and god knows how  many  granddaughters made sure I had the time to attend every one of them as well as had his son show me a variety of moves in the office (ex military). Not to mention the training my own dad and brothers gave.  The self defense class though was the best.   Years later, I still carry out those techniques taught.  My niece one time told me I walk like I mean business and I thought ...that's what I was taught.  Carry yourself out and about like you could stop an elephant in mid charge.   I personally feel that three times over my life I have avoided a mugging just because of how I was taught to walk and interact in a parking lot. I know I have stopped two kidnapping attempts on my kids just because of that self defense class. Walk tall, look people in the eye, and scan the area constantly, keys in hand and items positioned so one can fight back.  Strangers just don't feel comfortable laying a hand on me.  I don't give out that vibe anymore. The self defense class went over all that body language stuff and how one person is seen as approachable by a perv while skipping over others.  It was a combination of self defense techniques and a lot of how to overcome polite woman syndrome that gets women killed.

 

Now of course that doesn't work on those just mentally off or the elderly slipping into dementia.  But those techniques I learned to extract myself from situations work.  Step into their space and turn enough to get out of their grip. You can do stuff like that and still be "polite" while making sure you are in a safe spot so to speak without hurting feelings (Deep south so hurt feelings crop up especially with the elderly)

 

 

 Nope, it isn't.   With a perv, it is a grooming technique.  How much can I touch this woman before she becomes concerned?  Light tap, harder tap, full hand on upper arm, hold hands, full frontal approach while holding onto upper arm.....it's a response checker. First thing self defense taught was a light tap should immediately concern you to get your back against something or toward complete freedom if you know no one is behind you and arms up and feet spaced firmly with weight on the back leg. Put yourself in position for fight or flight.  And never let someone no matter their age hold your attention in public space while your back is open.  

 

That doesn't mean you are rude or think every single interaction in public is dangerous.  but it does  mean you ensure your own safety is paramount over the feelings of a complete stranger!! 

 

The OP didn't know this man.  This wasn't an elderly church member, neighbor or other vaguely known seen before so and so's grandpa. This was a stranger in a public space. The elderly do put their hands on people to steady themselves but that doesn't mean the OP should not consider her safety FIRST. Elderly people can be very strong.  I've had my ass kicked by an elderly patient.  Three other nurses were holding him back and he still managed to ring my bell. Out in public, an elderly man with harmful intent could still take out a smaller woman.  Don't underestimate the strength of the elderly.

 

I did much snickering over the three young 20 something ARMED hoodlums who decided to rob a busload of elderly tourists.  (I think brazil.). . . . one of the men was a 70-something retired navy seal.  it was decidedly lopsided, don't remember if he killed one, but definitely disabled and the other two ran off.  while he had their guns.

 

it is totally possible to be assertive and polite at the same time. Something like "please let go, I am going to finish my shopping now."

 

I would not use please.  it gives the sense this is optional - it's not.

[eternalsummer]

I don't think being able to tell someone to piss off *after* they've copped a feel (that is, sexually assaulted me) is nearly as important as preventing the copping of the feel in the first place.

 

It is not just the elderly that I am uncomfortable having touch me.  I am more comfortable with the elderly than with middle aged or young men!  I think the reason elderly men are more likely to do it is probably because they feel there is more social grace given to them than say to a 35 year old guy.

 

Women don't bother me at all; this makes sense biologically and culturally.

[Bluegoat]

What?

 

I feel like you're imagining all the glorious harmless old people you've come across. And evidently all the hypothetical, harmless, touch-starved homeless people on the planet???

 

How about just assume the OP felt uncomfortable because her run in wasn't with any of those specific people.

 

Most people are harmless.  Elderly people looking to make contact by a somewhat odd pretense and craving social touch is not unusual.  The op didn't give any reason to think this guy was unusual, but rather that she isn't that keen on people touching her.

 

If we visit another country, or have visitors, we make accommodation for their customs and sensibilities.  And sometimes we do that with other people who are more or less touchy, or who have different feelings about social chit chat, or all kinds of other things.  If you go to France and tell people any kissing without prior consent is objectively wrong, they will think you are a nutter.  It also isn't an idea many older people will even be aware of.  Being polite under those conditions is perfectly appropriate.