A vent about being a "polite" woman.

[eternalsummer]

You aren't everyone, though.  If I were to guess, you have a good sense of the difference between feeling personally uncomfortable, and a sense that something is not quite right, and would be kind to people in the former case, either allowing them (say) to touch your arm while you spoke, or taking it away gently without causing them embarrassment. 

 

I don't think that's what was described in the op post.  And I don't think that is what people are saying when they say any stranger touching you is inappropriate, especially if it is more than brief, or that it is ok to respond to such people in a "not polite" way, or that any sense of being uncomfortable should translate to an appropriate personal boundary.

 

This is a very typical type of behavior seen in the elderly in terms both of touching and the attempt to connect by being helpful, in a public place with other people around, and yet the reactions range from suggesting a rather rude rebuttal to saying be careful, the elderly can be strong, or touching without consent is wrong so he may well be a bad man.  Yes, it is possible he was looking to cop a feel - chances are, he isn't, and if he did you could still tell him to piss off. 

 

That is irrational fearfulness, and being unwilling to touch someone in a social interaction is unkind.  Probably not consciously so, but there is a reason that certain classes of people are the ones no one touches.  It's not usually because people say to themselves, oh, I don't want to touch the elderly demented.  It's because those people tend to be socially isolated to a greater degree, and they act and look in a way that makes others feel uncomfortable.

 

And I do think our culture is abnormally oriented to touch and I think that's something we can see when we look at other cultures, or other primates for that matter, and is supported by the research.  It likely comes from the British who have also very reserved culture of social touching, but it's been over-laid by this aspect of fear of predators and sexual exploitation in recent years, where it seems ok for reserve to turn into moral indignation.  I think its the latter that's really the problem.

 

 

My discomfort in having men touch me is not fearfulness, and it is not irrational.  The touch itself is what is unwelcome.  I am not afraid they are going to drag me off to a dark alley; I don't want their hand on my arm, and the hand on my arm is an antisocial imposition.

 

Primates, I imagine, do not go around willfully touching other primates whom they do not know, and I bet if a male monkey from another tribe came along and started grooming some male monkey's female mate, there would be hell to pay.  That is just a theory, though - I don't know much about primates, just humans.

 

Humans, historically, until quite recently, didn't live in groups where they didn't know everyone.  I think this standoffishness makes a lot of sense in the context of:

 

A. Pretty loose social rules about the mixing of men and married women in common areas (stores, workplace, etc.)

B. Most people living in cities or towns where they don't know most other people in these common areas.

[poppy]

What is that rule about once Hilter is brought up, the conversation is over? I feel like there should be a Ted Bundy corollary .

 

Everyone agrees about most points anyway .

Edited February 7, 2017 by poppy

[Guest]

The indication is that she did not feel comfortable.

 

For the hundredth time, telling someone you do not want them to touch you is not impolite.

 

There's always going to be people somewhere else who thinks something is A OK Okie Dokie....It is Completely Immaterial to the issue at hand what's shaking in Paris at any given moment.

[SparklyUnicorn]

I haven't read the whole thread, but Carrie, how can you be so sure you didn't do exactly the right thing? Everything turned out fine. Maybe your instinct to smile and play along was the perfect response in that particular situation.

 

I have every confidence that if the guy had become overtly threatening, you would have taken action, but he didn't. You diffused what could have become a confrontational situation in a peaceful and friendly way.

 

I'm not saying that there weren't other ways to have handled the situation, but perhaps it was worth letting the man get away with putting his hand on your arm in order to not provoke a more aggressive situation. I wouldn't say that if you weren't in the middle of a store, but fortunately you were in a place where you could have gotten help immediately if necessary.

 

I think anyone would have been uncomfortable in that situation, but I don't think you should beat yourself up for the way you handled it.

 

Yes, and don't underestimate the value of feeling extremely uncomfortable. 

 

:lol: :lol:

 

Totally kidding.  But yep, in those instances, what can ya do?  Feel awkward and later be mad you couldn't have body slammed him instead.

[Laura Corin]

Maybe this is a regional difference.  I am not comfortable with arm touches from strangers, and would certainly not do that to anyone else.  But I grew up in New York.

 

They seem normal to me if I can't attract someone's attention otherwise.  That doesn't seem to have been the case for the OP, however.  

 

I tapped someone on the shoulder recently when his dog was pooping all the way down the street and he had no idea.  He was ahead of me and would not have heard my voice with the traffic noise.  He was happy to be told and cleaned up the mess.

[eternalsummer]

I am not bothered or alarmed by touching by strangers, even male strangers, in situations where it is necessary or useful (as in Laura's example above). But that is not what happens, normally.  Telling me that Jesus liked his girls to wear skirts was not necessary or helpful.

[gardenmom5]

I don't think being able to tell someone to piss off *after* they've copped a feel (that is, sexually assaulted me) is nearly as important as preventing the copping of the feel in the first place.

 

It is not just the elderly that I am uncomfortable having touch me.  I am more comfortable with the elderly than with middle aged or young men!  I think the reason elderly men are more likely to do it is probably because they feel there is more social grace given to them than say to a 35 year old guy.

 

Women don't bother me at all; this makes sense biologically and culturally.

 

and those women could just be distracting you while they lift your wallet.

 

What is that rule about once Hilter is brought up, the conversation is over? I feel like there should be a Ted Bundy corollary .

 

Everyone agrees about most points anyway .

 

we have some in this thread still pushing the meme of "he said he was safe - so he's safe".    just because someone claims to be safe - does NOT mean they are *safe*. so, obviously - that is not a point in agreement.   she was uncomfortable - his behavior was odd, we don't know why and tbh: the why is irrelevant and she was not obligated to determine why he was odd,  it made her uncomfortable - and THAT is the only thing that matters in how to handle it in a way that would make her feel safe and comfortable.  there are a multitude of ways to do so.  politeness should never come before safety.

[gardenmom5]

I am not bothered or alarmed by touching by strangers, even male strangers, in situations where it is necessary or useful (as in Laura's example above). But that is not what happens, normally.  Telling me that Jesus liked his girls to wear skirts was not necessary or helpful.

 

I'd be looking for the men in white coats myself . . . .

[SparklyUnicorn]

They seem normal to me if I can't attract someone's attention otherwise.  That doesn't seem to have been the case for the OP, however.  

 

I tapped someone on the shoulder recently when his dog was pooping all the way down the street and he had no idea.  He was ahead of me and would not have heard my voice with the traffic noise.  He was happy to be told and cleaned up the mess.

 

This is a scenario I'd do this.  But as a friendly gesture to a random stranger for no real reason?  Heck no. 

[zoobie]

I FB messaged my 84 year old grandfather to ask if he would put his arm on a woman unknown to him and lecture her in a grocery store. He replied: hell no, and if I do, you need to stop letting me go to the store alone!

[Catwoman]

Yes, and don't underestimate the value of feeling extremely uncomfortable.

 

:lol: :lol:

 

Totally kidding. But yep, in those instances, what can ya do? Feel awkward and later be mad you couldn't have body slammed him instead.

:lol:

 

Honestly, I probably wouldn't have even wanted to body slam him. :D

 

I probably would have written it off as an old man treating me like he would treat his daughter or granddaughter and let it go. I wouldn't have been happy that he was touching my arm, but I wouldn't have made a stink about it with no other provocation.

 

I could imagine a sweet old man worrying that someone would steal Carrie's purse out of her cart and wanting to warn her about it. Should he have done it without touching her? Of course. But if I were in that situation in the middle of a supermarket with lots of other people around, I wouldn't have wanted to embarrass the poor man or make him uncomfortable for having tried to do a nice thing.

 

I truly believe that Carrie is a smart and capable woman, and if the man seemed to have ill intentions toward her or started following her around the store, or even if he just seemed generally creepy, she would have handled the situation differently. But as it turned out, it appears that he really did just want to warn her that someone might steal her handbag, so I think she did the right thing by smiling and not making a fuss. It's good to be careful and cautious, but it's also so easy to get caught up in the idea of being ready to defend yourself against strangers that you lose sight of the possibility that sometimes people are genuinely trying to be nice to you.

[HS Mom in NC]

My cultural context: Elderly people retire here all the time. It's so unusual to have been born here if you're over 35 that it gets surprise and discussion, so most people over 35 were born and raised in different parts of the US.   Elderly people live here as snowbirds (half time here half time in colder climates.) I shop at the same grocery stores as the elderly living in retirement communities and have for all of my adult life. 

What the OP is describing is bizarre behavior here, even for elderly people born and raised all over the US.  We're a concealed carry state so I know plenty of people who I encounter not only own a gun but are carrying it concealed on their person, in their bag (unless the place of business posts a no guns sign or I'm in a government building) or in their vehicle.  I have never once in my life heard a stranger discuss guns with me or anyone else upon meeting them out and about running errands.

I would've taken his hand and removed it from me as soon as he put it on me. I have little to no compulsion to "be nice" when someone is over stepping personal and cultural boundaries with me.  I don't know what the cultural norms are other places, but here we don't do that to people.  No one has to put up with that if they want to, regardless of cultural norms.  Options include verbal, "Please remove your hand." or physical like using your hand to remove his or stepping back out of his reach. 

[happi duck]

(hugs)

 

I hate when I'm "polite" to my own detriment.

 

To make matters worse dh is "polite" and even if he is *right there* he doesn't intervene.

 

I want a TARDIS so I can go back in time yelling "back off!"

[Zebra]

Isn't the point of the op the fact that her instinctual response was "polite" giggles, even though she wasn't okay with it, and THAT was what bothered her? Does it matter if WE agree about her being bothered? She can feel how she wants to feel about it. And, since she isolated an issue that bothers her, I think it's great she wants to find a solution so next time she feels able to respond authentically to her judgement, rather than culturally programming.

 

Even elderly men should have permission before touching women they do not know. Men should not touch women they do not know, no matter how innocent, helpful, kind, or boring they may appear. If the OP had told him to not touch her, and he was offended or embarrassed, why is that her responsibility? Are others responsible for our feelings? Different generations/customary norms aside, even an elderly man should understand that not everyone sees things as they do, and not be burdened in any way if/when a random woman doesn't want his hands on any part of her anatomy, no matter how benign or how helpful he's trying to be.

 

I also think men know this, as a general rule.

 

I also agree that polite can also be firm, and that it's often kinder to be blunt than "polite." Don't be a jerk,but it's not necessary to allow someone contact with your body if you don't want it.

This is exactly how I wanted to say it.

[Catwoman]

The indication is that she did not feel comfortable.

 

For the hundredth time, telling someone you do not want them to touch you is not impolite.

 

There's always going to be people somewhere else who thinks something is A OK Okie Dokie....It is Completely Immaterial to the issue at hand what's shaking in Paris at any given moment.

I agree.

 

If someone makes you uncomfortable, you have every right to tell them to stop doing what they are doing.

 

In this case, Carrie didn't do that, and I think that was fine, too, particularly because she was in the middle of a supermarket where it was pretty unlikely that the man was going to grab her and drag her out of the store. Thankfully, she wasn't in any real danger at that moment, and as long as she was aware of her surroundings and saw that the man wasn't following her around the store or out into the parking lot, I think her response was fine. Had she posted that she told the man to stop touching her, I would have said that was a reasonable response as well.

[Guest]

Omg I just remembered the time I was in the store with my kids and right behind me my son says "mom, a stranger man is touching me!" I whipped around and yelled at him and he ran out of the store. He'd been holding his hand!

 

Oh man I'd nearly forgotten that. Ugh

[Tangerine]

An older man came up to me at a Whole Foods last year, put his arm around me, and said that I was obviously a good Christian girl because I was wearing a long skirt and Jesus likes his girls to wear skirts.  I also sort of smiled and nodded, and wished afterward that I'd at least told him I didn't think Jesus liked men touching other men's wives.  

 

I'm not even Christian!

Ooooo!  Was he interested in meeting Jesus right that minute?  

[El...]

It is not rude to tell someone not to touch you.  Not never, not no-how. 

[Guest]

Ooooo! Was he interested in meeting Jesus right that minute?

Real question.

 

When did people first start wearing pants? Wouldn't Jesus himself have worn "dresses?"

[Tanaqui]

But as it turned out, it appears that he really did just want to warn her that someone might steal her handbag, so I think she did the right thing by smiling and not making a fuss. It's good to be careful and cautious, but it's also so easy to get caught up in the idea of being ready to defend yourself against strangers that you lose sight of the possibility that sometimes people are genuinely trying to be nice to you.

 

Interesting. You say he was "genuinely trying to be nice". I look at this same interaction, and I see it differently. He was treating her like a child, one too stupid to look out for herself. He was telling her she should be afraid, even in "safe" places. (And not knowing about this other city, I wonder if there was a racist/classist implication in saying that THAT place wasn't safe.) He was telling her that he had a right to police how she behaved - where she put her bag, whether or not she had a weapon. None of this is nice. None of this is okay.

 

Some months back, I was taking the SI Ferry at night. Now, the ferry is huge. It's designed for a heavy load, so that even during rush hour you usually can get a small buffer between yourself and anybody you don't know. This wasn't rush hour, so it was pretty empty. I sat down on the lower level so I'd have even more personal space - and somebody sat right next to me. Given the hour, I would've been startled if anybody even sat within three or four seats of me, and here he was, right next to me.

 

So I stared at him, completely shocked by this abandonment of all normal social mores, and he asked "Is it all right if I sit here?"

 

If I had said yes, I'm sure we would've had a superficially nice conversation. I've had conversations with strangers on the boat before, about all sorts of things. But I was completely weirded out by this, and I said no.

 

And then I moved.

 

And he followed me, said I had a "fat ass", and then whined "I was only trying to be friendly."

 

No, sir, you weren't.

 

What would have happened if the OP had up and said "Get out of my face" or even "Please leave me alone"? Would this man have said "Okay, my bad" and left quietly?

 

Well, it's possible. Neither you, nor I, nor anybody here knows what he would've done. But I'll suggest that at best, the odds are 50/50 for that result.

[El...]

An older man came up to me at a Whole Foods last year, put his arm around me, and said that I was obviously a good Christian girl because I was wearing a long skirt and Jesus likes his girls to wear skirts.  I also sort of smiled and nodded, and wished afterward that I'd at least told him I didn't think Jesus liked men touching other men's wives.  

 

I'm not even Christian!

:cursing:  :rant:  :boxing_smiley:  :banghead:

[Catwoman]

Omg I just remembered the time I was in the store with my kids and right behind me my son says "mom, a stranger man is touching me!" I whipped around and yelled at him and he ran out of the store. He'd been holding his hand!

 

Oh man I'd nearly forgotten that. Ugh

:eek: :eek: :eek:

 

That must have been TERRIFYING!!!! :grouphug:

 

Thank goodness your son spoke out right away!

 

I got a chill just reading your post. It all could have gone so horribly wrong. :(

[Charlie]

Isn't the point of the op the fact that her instinctual response was "polite" giggles, even though she wasn't okay with it, and THAT was what bothered her? Does it matter if WE agree about her being bothered? She can feel how she wants to feel about it. And, since she isolated an issue that bothers her, I think it's great she wants to find a solution so next time she feels able to respond authentically to her judgement, rather than culturally programming.

 

This is how I read it, too. If I could go back in time and re-do events where my conditioning kicked in, much to the detriment of those I love, I would do it in a heartbeat. I'm glad nothing happened to the OP, but I absolutely understand the frustration at watching conditioned behavior kick in, even when it's not appropriate to the situation. Granted, this conditioning to be polite can be very helpful, too. I've also regretted letting my impulses lead a situation where politeness would have been much better. I imagine most of us can think of such a time in our past.

 

Being a hostage to the brain's impulses can be so hard to process. It's not like in the moment of conflict we necessarily have a choice. We respond according to a gazillion minute calculations made in our brain, and before we are aware of what we do, we're watching ourselves do it. We then justify it later. The OP can't justify this one, and I can certainly relate. I don't think she ought to blame herself, and I hope she doesn't, but I know it can screw with your mind for a while. @ OP, may the shower gods bless you with many imaginary scenarios in which you kick ass in that moment, in as many ways as you deem kicking ass to be.

[Guest]

:eek: :eek: :eek:

 

That must have been TERRIFYING!!!! :grouphug:

 

Thank goodness your son spoke out right away!

 

I got a chill just reading your post. It all could have gone so horribly wrong. :(

Yeah. I was shakin up for weeks. DS thought the man was playing a game because he'd smiled, he said.

[Lady Florida.]

You can maintain your "polite woman" status while moving away, saying "thanks for your concern" in a neutral tone, and walking away without letting him continue talking. Being polite doesn't mean letting people annoy you.  

 

That's probably what I would have done. I'd have said something like, "Thank you for your concern. I've lived here a long time but I've also lived in larger cities. My experience and ability to determine risk helps me know when it's safe and when it isn't." 

 

Or something like that.  I live in a city where it's more or less safe to do what you did (depending on which store I'm in -mTarget yes, Walmart not so much). 

 

ETA - I'd probably have ignored the gun comment completely.

Edited February 7, 2017 by Lady Florida.

[Catwoman]

Interesting. You say he was "genuinely trying to be nice". I look at this same interaction, and I see it differently. He was treating her like a child, one too stupid to look out for herself. He was telling her she should be afraid, even in "safe" places. (And not knowing about this other city, I wonder if there was a racist/classist implication in saying that THAT place wasn't safe.) He was telling her that he had a right to police how she behaved - where she put her bag, whether or not she had a weapon. None of this is nice. None of this is okay.

 

Some months back, I was taking the SI Ferry at night. Now, the ferry is huge. It's designed for a heavy load, so that even during rush hour you usually can get a small buffer between yourself and anybody you don't know. This wasn't rush hour, so it was pretty empty. I sat down on the lower level so I'd have even more personal space - and somebody sat right next to me. Given the hour, I would've been startled if anybody even sat within three or four seats of me, and here he was, right next to me.

 

So I stared at him, completely shocked by this abandonment of all normal social mores, and he asked "Is it all right if I sit here?"

 

If I had said yes, I'm sure we would've had a superficially nice conversation. I've had conversations with strangers on the boat before, about all sorts of things. But I was completely weirded out by this, and I said no.

 

And then I moved.

 

And he followed me, said I had a "fat ass", and then whined "I was only trying to be friendly."

 

No, sir, you weren't.

 

What would have happened if the OP had up and said "Get out of my face" or even "Please leave me alone"? Would this man have said "Okay, my bad" and left quietly?

 

Well, it's possible. Neither you, nor I, nor anybody here knows what he would've done. But I'll suggest that at best, the odds are 50/50 for that result.

But that was exactly my point. Carrie wasn't in any immediate danger in the middle of the supermarket and by not demanding that the man leave her alone, Carrie successfully avoided a confrontation with him. Had he continued to bother her, I'm sure she would have said something to him but as it turned out, it wasn't necessary.

 

Your situation on the ferry was different because there were very few people around. I would bet the guy found you attractive and wanted to meet you, so that's why he wanted to sit next to you. His reaction when you said "no" was immature and stupid, but that alone doesn't convince me that he was a pervert getting ready to attack you. I do, however, understand your reaction because it was nighttime and you weren't really in a safe place with lots of other people nearby.

 

When I was younger, many people met their boyfriends and girlfriends on the train or at the airport or on the ferry -- and in order to meet each other, someone had to get up the nerve to walk over and say hello, so I probably wouldn't have found the situation as unusual as you did. Obviously, I wasn't there on the ferry with you so I'll trust your judgment if you felt there was something creepy about him, and you certainly had the right to refuse to let him sit by you -- please don't think I'm being critical of your reaction at all, because I absolutely understand it. I'm just hoping his motives were to meet an attractive woman so he could ask you out on a date, and that he didn't have any sinister motives.

[poppy]

But that was exactly my point. Carrie wasn't in any immediate danger in the middle of the supermarket and by not demanding that the man leave her alone, Carrie successfully avoided a confrontation with him. Had he continued to bother her, I'm sure she would have said something to him but as it turned out, it wasn't necessary.

 

Your situation on the ferry was different because there were very few people around. I would bet the guy found you attractive and wanted to meet you, so that's why he wanted to sit next to you. His reaction when you said "no" was immature and stupid, but that alone doesn't convince me that he was a pervert getting ready to attack you. I do, however, understand your reaction because it was nighttime and you weren't really in a safe place with lots of other people nearby.

 

When I was younger, many people met their boyfriends and girlfriends on the train or at the airport or on the ferry -- and in order to meet each other, someone had to get up the nerve to walk over and say hello, so I probably wouldn't have found the situation as unusual as you did. Obviously, I wasn't there on the ferry with you so I'll trust your judgment if you felt there was something creepy about him, and you certainly had the right to refuse to let him sit by you -- please don't think I'm being critical of your reaction at all, because I absolutely understand it. I'm just hoping his motives were to meet an attractive woman so he could ask you out on a date, and that he didn't have any sinister motives.

 

This is where I'm coming from too.

 

I think every single poster has agreed that boundaries are OK, and telling him to remove his hands is entirely appropriate. 

 

Edited February 7, 2017 by poppy

[gardenmom5]

Interesting. You say he was "genuinely trying to be nice". I look at this same interaction, and I see it differently. He was treating her like a child, one too stupid to look out for herself. He was telling her she should be afraid, even in "safe" places. (And not knowing about this other city, I wonder if there was a racist/classist implication in saying that THAT place wasn't safe.) He was telling her that he had a right to police how she behaved - where she put her bag, whether or not she had a weapon. None of this is nice. None of this is okay.

 

Some months back, I was taking the SI Ferry at night. Now, the ferry is huge. It's designed for a heavy load, so that even during rush hour you usually can get a small buffer between yourself and anybody you don't know. This wasn't rush hour, so it was pretty empty. I sat down on the lower level so I'd have even more personal space - and somebody sat right next to me. Given the hour, I would've been startled if anybody even sat within three or four seats of me, and here he was, right next to me.

 

So I stared at him, completely shocked by this abandonment of all normal social mores, and he asked "Is it all right if I sit here?"

 

If I had said yes, I'm sure we would've had a superficially nice conversation. I've had conversations with strangers on the boat before, about all sorts of things. But I was completely weirded out by this, and I said no.

 

And then I moved.

 

And he followed me, said I had a "fat ass", and then whined "I was only trying to be friendly."

 

No, sir, you weren't.

 

What would have happened if the OP had up and said "Get out of my face" or even "Please leave me alone"? Would this man have said "Okay, my bad" and left quietly?

 

Well, it's possible. Neither you, nor I, nor anybody here knows what he would've done. But I'll suggest that at best, the odds are 50/50 for that result.

 

we took the bus to my dd's graduation.  dh and I didn't sit in the exact same seat - towards the back of the bus because that's where dh wanted to sit.  (I hate sitting there).  further down, this  . . odd . .creepy?  . . definitely weird guy got on a nearly empty bus, and came to sit across from me.  he tried to make conversation to which I made cursory replies at best - I focused even harder on dh and 2ds who was with us.  I couldn't even look at anything out the window in his direction lest he take it as interest from me.  he eventually stood up, said "i just wanted to make conversation" then went and sat by someone else.  I don't care if he wanted to talk - I wasn't interested nor was I obligated. he was the one who was rude because he was the one trying to force it.

[Catwoman]

This is where I'm coming from too.

 

I think every single poster has agreed that boundaries are OK, and telling him to remove his hands is entirely appropriate.

:iagree:

 

I don't think there was a definite right or wrong response in Carrie's situation, and while she may wish she had done something differently, the important thing is that what she did was effective. Someone else might have handled it more aggressively and that may have been a good option as well.

 

I still think Carrie would have stopped smiling and playing along with the man if he had continued to bother her or if she felt truly threatened. She's a smart cookie and I really believe she would have taken stronger action if it had proven to be necessary.

[Catwoman]

we took the bus to my dd's graduation. dh and I didn't sit in the exact same seat - towards the back of the bus because that's where dh wanted to sit. (I hate sitting there). further down, this . . odd . .creepy? . . definitely weird guy got on a nearly empty bus, and came to sit across from me. he tried to make conversation to which I made cursory replies at best - I focused even harder on dh and 2ds who was with us. I couldn't even look at anything out the window in his direction lest he take it as interest from me. he eventually stood up, said "i just wanted to make conversation" then went and sat by someone else. I don't care if he wanted to talk - I wasn't interested nor was I obligated. he was the one who was rude because he was the one trying to force it.

Absolutely! You had every right not to want to talk to the guy, and if he didn't pick up on the social cues and realize that you weren't interested in having a conversation, that was his problem, not yours.

[gardenmom5]

That's probably what I would have done. I'd have said something like, "Thank you for your concern. I've lived here a long time but I've also lived in larger cities. My experience and ability to determine risk helps me know when it's safe and when it isn't." 

 

Or something like that.  I live in a city where it's more or less safe to do what you did (depending on which store I'm in -mTarget yes, Walmart not so much). 

 

ETA - I'd probably have ignored the gun comment completely.

 

seems a bit long winded.  he might think you're starting a conversation and he didn't need any encouragement.  I might say "thank you for your concern, I'm fine." then turned away back to what I was doing - or gone to a different aisle.

 

 

 

When I was younger, many people met their boyfriends and girlfriends on the train or at the airport or on the ferry -- and in order to meet each other, someone had to get up the nerve to walk over and say hello, so I probably wouldn't have found the situation as unusual as you did. Obviously, I wasn't there on the ferry with you so I'll trust your judgment if you felt there was something creepy about him, and you certainly had the right to refuse to let him sit by you -- please don't think I'm being critical of your reaction at all, because I absolutely understand it. I'm just hoping his motives were to meet an attractive woman so he could ask you out on a date, and that he didn't have any sinister motives.

 

my sil met her dh on a bus.  BUT . . . he was already sitting down, and the last vacant seat was next to him.  he basically stared at her as she proceeded to talk for the next 30 minutes.  she had to ask him his name - which was his only contribution to the "conversation".  since he got on towards the beginning of the route - he proceeded to save the seat next to him.  it was her choice to sit next to him the next day.  and the day after that and the day after that . . . . good thing she is so outgoing or nothing would have ever happened. . .

[Guest]

People meet each other and click all the time. But no one clicks with someone they don't want in their space.

[marbel]

I am really surprised that people seem to think that it's inappropriate to feel uncomfortable in a situation as described in the OP. 

 

Even though I don't think that's true, think about how people are picturing this situation.  We all have a different picture in our heads.

 

I'm picturing a guy in his 70s or older, putting a hand on her arm or shoulder in a fatherly way.  Not a huge deal to me.

 

Someone else compared to it a guy grabbing her breast in a bar, and someone else to a guy grabbing her from behind on the street.  

 

The real picture is somewhere in between, no doubt.

 

But of course it is never inappropriate to feel uncomfortable.  How could that be?  But there may be inappropriate responses. Yelling "back off!" might be one if the guy is just standing there, not keeping her from walking away. 

 

The OP said she was "freaking out inside" and I'm having a hard time squaring that with the picture in my head.   If I was that nervous in such a situation, I would look into self defense or assertiveness training, as others have suggested.  Nothing wrong with learning how to feel stronger and less vulnerable.  

 

And (this bit is not related to the post I'm quoting), once again:  the man did not say that he was safe.  He said that the store they were in was safe, but other stores in other areas are not.  Big difference and I don't know why people are bringing up Ted Bundy telling women he was safe when that wasn't in the OP at all. 

 

This thread is like a big game of telephone.  No doubt I'll be found to be contributing to that in some way. 

[Onceuponatime]

Omg I just remembered the time I was in the store with my kids and right behind me my son says "mom, a stranger man is touching me!" I whipped around and yelled at him and he ran out of the store. He'd been holding his hand!

 

Oh man I'd nearly forgotten that. Ugh

We were in a museum when my oldest son was a toddler. He ran up to a woman who was walking toward the exit and grabbed her hand, thinking she was me. The lady kept walking without looking around! I ran up and snatched him away. She laughed and said she had thought it was cute. I was too shocked to say anything to her, but it sure affected the rest of my years parenting toddlers. Edited February 7, 2017 by Onceuponatime

[Lady Florida.]

Like Iliveinflipflops, the touching wouldn't have bothered me as much as the lecture/mansplaining. gardenmom said my imagined response might be long winded. Maybe, maybe not. Neither conversing with strangers or lightly touching them to get their attention is uncommon here (not Florida in general, but in my small piece of Florida).

 

 

 

What is that rule about once Hilter is brought up, the conversation is over? I feel like there should be a Ted Bundy corollary .
 

 

I knew one of his Tallahassee victims. We were not close but were casual acquaintances. 

Edited February 7, 2017 by Lady Florida.

[gardenmom5]

Like Iliveinflipflops, the touching wouldn't have bothered me as much as the lecture/mansplaining. gardenmom said my imagined response might be long winded. Maybe, maybe not. Neither conversing with strangers or lightly touching them to get their attention is uncommon here (not Florida in general, but in my small piece of Florida).

 

 

 

my concern was it might encourage him to talk more . . . .

 

I have had little kids grab my hand or leg. I stop walking, say "hey sweetie, wrong mama" and look around for the parent. I can't imagine walking away with someone else's child!

 

some will look up in shock as they realize they don't' know where mamma is.  but I have seen little (and I mean little) kids so far apart from the parent I wonder where the parent is or if the kid took off on their own.  so easy for a nefarious type to grab them.

I had one who could disappear so fast (he was never lost. he always knew where he was) - I only started calming down when he got to 10-12 . . .

[MotherGoose]

If you felt scared etc then I certainly don't intend to invalidate that. However, for another perspective (and carrying guns is okay with me--it seemed from your op that guns in general may freak you out a little, which is fine with me). But perhaps he thought of you as his daughter, was thinking about his daughter out shopping in a similar situation and how he'd speak to her. Perhaps in his culture it's fine to have guns and to carry them. Was his touching you inappropriate? Sure, but it would appear. To me that perhaps he meant it as kind, fatherly advice. I've had older men do similar things. I usually try politely end the conversation. Now if it turns into hitting on me it's another matter . Or if someone grabbed me in a dark parking lot or whatever. I live in the southern US, and perhaps it's s cultural thing. People tend to talk to strangers. I have gotten bizarre looks when I've struck up conversations with strangers about innocuous things...not guns...but like how old is your baby or whatever in other parts of the country. Just offering a different perspective and NoT invalidating your feelings.

[Janie Grace]

I don't know if you remember, but i started a thread a while back about an old guy hitting on me in a coffee shop. The encounter went on way too long because I couldn't believe that was actually his motive (because he was OLD) and it felt wrong to be rude to someone who could be my grandpa.

 

Several people made the point that becoming too forward with the opposite sex is a sign of dementia. Maybe that was happening in your case.

Other people reassured me that I didn't do something WRONG by not reacting. It is okay to wish you had a do-over and be frustrated with the social norms that pressured you to giggle. You can react differently next time. But you didn't do anything wrong. It was a weird situation, it was a hard call to make, and you erred on the side of kindness. It's okay.

[zoobie]

If you felt scared etc then I certainly don't intend to invalidate that. However, for another perspective (and carrying guns is okay with me--it seemed from your op that guns in general may freak you out a little, which is fine with me). But perhaps he thought of you as his daughter, was thinking about his daughter out shopping in a similar situation and how he'd speak to her. Perhaps in his culture it's fine to have guns and to carry them. Was his touching you inappropriate? Sure, but it would appear. To me that perhaps he meant it as kind, fatherly advice. I've had older men do similar things. I usually try politely end the conversation. Now if it turns into hitting on me it's another matter . Or if someone grabbed me in a dark parking lot or whatever. I live in the southern US, and perhaps it's s cultural thing. People tend to talk to strangers. I have gotten bizarre looks when I've struck up conversations with strangers about innocuous things...not guns...but like how old is your baby or whatever in other parts of the country. Just offering a different perspective and NoT invalidating your feelings.

I'm Southern. This type of rank paternalism is not kind. It's rude. We need to speak up and tell them to stop. She's a grown woman. She doesn't need parenting from a stranger.

[Guest]

(hugs)

 

I hate when I'm "polite" to my own detriment.

 

To make matters worse dh is "polite" and even if he is *right there* he doesn't intervene.

 

I want a TARDIS so I can go back in time yelling "back off!"

Me too. I can totally relate to the OP.

 

I had a situation once where I was at the grocery store and wearing a skort. A much, much older man came over to me at the deli counter; I could see that he wanted to say something to me and I foolishly presumed it was about potatoe salad being on sale or something. Once he was close to me, and I'm smiling (because I'm polite and generally nice to 80-year-old men), he said, "I'm sure you hear this all the time, but I must say, you have quite the pair of legs on you."

 

Just as the OP describes, I laughed lightly and said thank you but it made me feel BADLY OBJECTIFIED. No, he wasn't "threatening" in any way, and coming from his generation, I'm sure he thought that was just the nicest thing he could ever say to a young mom buying bologna. I felt like an idiot for laughing along as he told me he was checkin out my goods. I was horrified at the thought that any of the other bystanders may have heard what he said and been puzzled by my seemingly positive reaction. And lastly, yes, it bothers me that my main concern was for behaving "nicely" and not saying or indicating to him that not every woman is going to be pleased to know a guy at the grocery is ogling her legs.

 

I also chucked that skort soon afterwards. It worried me that I was inviting comment if my legs did look good in that skort.

[Carrie12345]

Telling someone to stop touching you is not UNKIND or INAPPROPRIATE.

 

This is the whole, entire point in a nutshell.

 

 

 

YES!

 

I only just got home to make my way through responses, but I love (and hate that I have to love) the conversation.

 

Just a quick clarification, I don't believe this was an *elderly man.  I used the word "older" because he was definitely more than my almost-40 years, and I'm reluctant to guess most people's ages, especially in an area where there's a good amount of... hard living, let's say.  Pushed, I'd say maybe 60+.  Probably not 70.

 

I was raised in NJ and I've lived in two rough cities. I don't consider myself any sort of delicate flower, lol.

I DO get uncomfortable with people I don't know well touching me, but I can't think of any other time that a complete stranger has done so.  I do find it disturbing that a man should think I need to protect myself from theft of junk, but clearly not from the physical touch of strange men.

 

Honestly, if I were able to go back in time, it would be less about getting his hand off of me and more about informing him that you NEVER touch ANY stranger, because it's just. plain. wrong.  In a world where my actions would be questioned if a man were to harm me, I don't think it such a huge burden to demand good people keep their hands to themselves.

 

FWIW, I am in a concealed carry state. There are guns everywhere, and there was no real reason for this man to assume I didn't have one.  And no reason for me to assume he didn't!

[Barb_]

Carrie, one of my girls worked at at a golf club restaurant through high school. She said the older guys were the worst. I think the older generation of boomer men have an entitlement complex when it comes to women. Obviously that's a generalization and they can't all be like that, but the same bunch of guys who grabbed her or made sleazy comments were the same bunch of guys who did it to me 20 years earlier when I was in my teens and they were in their thirties. My dad's friends were pretty disgusting the way they talked about their friends' daughters. They came of age in the late 60s and early 70's when they didn't have to filter anymore--and before women began telling them to knock it off, lol

[Tanaqui]

Your situation on the ferry was different because there were very few people around. I would bet the guy found you attractive and wanted to meet you, so that's why he wanted to sit next to you. His reaction when you said "no" was immature and stupid, but that alone doesn't convince me that he was a pervert getting ready to attack you. I do, however, understand your reaction because it was nighttime and you weren't really in a safe place with lots of other people nearby.

 

To be honest, it's actually possible I was a lot safer on the boat than she was in the store. I was alone, but in full view of everybody else on that deck. There are two cops on board at all times, and more cops in each terminal who check bags for drugs or weapons. (Not every bag, but enough to deter many from trying.) We have our own Coast Guard patrol boat that rides with us, every ride. The deckhands make multiple sweeps of each deck every trip - and I know from personal experience that what flies in other places is absolutely not acceptable on the SI Ferry. They won't even let you carry a stroller on the terminal escalator, they have somebody stationed to tell people to take the elevator instead!

 

I didn't feel unsafe. I just felt uncomfortable.

 

None of us knows what this guy was really like. All we know is that she felt uncomfortable. Maybe that's because there was something else that she can't articulate.

Edited February 8, 2017 by Tanaqui