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Need help with university applications given our unusual situation


lewelma
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So, I have like a million questions about the application process in the USA.  DS is technically both a homeschooler and a school student, given that he has done enough national NZ exams to have a formal NZ high school diploma and a *national* class rank. But this work represents only 1/3 of the content he will have covered in the 4 years of high school, so he is definitely a homeschooler.  I also have the problem with the 6 month shift in the academic year to contend with.  So here is my list so far: 

 

1) I'm seeing that Harvard needs both a 1) "school report and high school transcript", 2) a mid-year school report, and 3) a final school report.  What school report?

 

 Mid-year and final reports will be a bit odd here because we are 6 months off.  Do I write these reports?  Does the correspondence school? or both because he is both a schooler and a homeschooler. And what do they include?  

 

2) What is an 'academic' subject in terms of recommendations. DS has been taking violin lessons from the associate concert master from The NZ symphony orchestra for 5 years. DS has taken formal exams from both NZ and the Royal School in the UK with his guidance.  Can we use him? 

 

3) Is the common app or the universal college app easier to fill in for homeschoolers? why chose one over the other?

 

More soon,

 

Ruth in NZ 

 

 
 

 

Edited by lewelma
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This is from the other thread from Kathy in Richmond.  I was too quick to make a new thread for my other questions and was going to end up explaining our situation twice. oops :tongue_smilie: 

 

 

 

Home schools take the applicant's level of interest into account, and some don't care at all.

 

Look at Section C6 of the Common Data Set of each university (you can usually find the CDS with a quick google search). You'll see a table ranking the relative importance of various factors in the admissions process, one of which is "level of applicant's interest."

 

Example: MIT's 2016 CDS

Here "level of applicant's interest" is ranked as "not considered."

They do conduct interviews, but they are scheduled after beginning an online application in the fall of senior year. And the interview is not assessing whether the student wants to attend, but rather other factors.

The application for kids entering Fall 2018 won't open till late summer. There's nothing to do concerning the application before that time.

 

Example: Harvard's 2016 CDS

Again, applicant's interest is "not considered."

 

My kids used the common application wherever it was accepted. MIT has its own online application and counselor forms (cannot use common app there). He will have to fill that one out separately, as well as whoever writes his recommendations and counselor forms.

 

I don't know the answer to your question about who should fill out the guidance counselor reports in your son's case, but my guess would be that you do if he's classified as a homeschooler.  I'd give the admissions offices a call and ask them. Both of those schools are very familiar with international students.

 

 

Edited by lewelma
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Thanks Kathy!

 

I'll go check out your link!

 

We've been in touch with MIT admissions, and they were really like 'do what every you think best to represent your student.' Which makes it kind of hard on me, because I don't have a clue!

 

*I* classify him as a homeschooler but technically NZ's Ministry of Education does not because ds is in the correspondence school.  Because NZ has an exam based high school diploma, ds knocked out the exams in 1.5 years while doing a bunch of other courses concurrently.  So DS took the equivalent of 5 AP exams, and now has his high school diploma.  The NZ system does not count any of his university classes (he had to take the high school level linear algebra exam because they would not count his A+ in a second year linear algebra course at the local university), nor will they count his post secondary diploma in music, nor any of his AoPS classes in both math and programming.  Nor of course his homeschooled classes in Mandarin, philosophy, econ, current events, or history.  

 

What I don't want to happen is for him (or me) to get in trouble for calling him one thing when the ministry calls him something else.  Is this a problem?  Also, this is part of what confuses me about who writes the school report?  The school or me? 

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So, I have like a million questions about the application process in the USA.  DS is technically both a homeschooler and a school student, given that he has done enough national NZ exams to have a formal NZ high school diploma and a *national* class rank. But this work represents only 1/3 of the content he will have covered in the 4 years of high school, so he is definitely a homeschooler.  I also have the problem with the 6 month shift in the academic year to contend with.  So here is my list so far: 

 

1) I'm seeing that Harvard needs both a 1) "school report and high school transcript", 2) a mid-year school report, and 3) a final school report.  What school report?

 

 Mid-year and final reports will be a bit odd here because we are 6 months off.  Do I write these reports?  Does the correspondence school? or both because he is both a schooler and a homeschooler. And what do they include?  

 

2) What is an 'academic' subject in terms of recommendations. DS has been taking violin lessons from the associate concert master from The NZ symphony orchestra for 5 years. DS has taken formal exams from both NZ and the Royal School in the UK with his guidance.  Can we use him? 

 

3) Is the common app or the universal college app easier to fill in for homeschoolers? why chose one over the other?

 

More soon,

 

Ruth in NZ 

 

 

1. The school report is also referred to as "the secondary school report" or the "homeschool profile".  Every traditional school sends out a school report that lists its demographic information, classes offered, average SAT/ACT scores, etc.  Homeschoolers also send in a similar report. In my school report, I listed the community demographics, our homeschooling philosophy, etc. 

 

2. If schools want letters of recommendation, they usually request one from a humanities teacher, one from a math/science teacher, and one from the guidance counselor.  I supplied the guidance counselor letter for both of my boys, and they had instructors or mentors supply the other letters.

 

3. The Universal app was new this year.  I chose to fill out the Common App for my senior only because I had tackled that beast once before and was afraid to try out the Universal App.  Some college accept neither one.  When my oldest applied to MIT, they had their own app.  I am not sure if that is still the case or not.

 

 

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1) I'm seeing that Harvard needs both a 1) "school report and high school transcript", 2) a mid-year school report, and 3) a final school report.  What school report?

 

 Mid-year and final reports will be a bit odd here because we are 6 months off.  Do I write these reports?  Does the correspondence school? or both because he is both a schooler and a homeschooler. And what do they include?  

 

2) What is an 'academic' subject in terms of recommendations. DS has been taking violin lessons from the associate concert master from The NZ symphony orchestra for 5 years. DS has taken formal exams from both NZ and the Royal School in the UK with his guidance.  Can we use him? 

 

3) Is the common app or the universal college app easier to fill in for homeschoolers? why chose one over the other?

 

 

The mid-year school report and final school report is basically the transcript, completed with the grades from the first and second semester. If your DS graduates in December, the mid-year report and the final report would be the same.

You will submit transcripts from all schools attended; the correspondence school should probably submit their transcript directly to the college.

 

I would have no difficulty using the violin teacher as one of the recommenders. Your DS will have another, or two, academic recommenders.

 

We did the Common App, because we had done that with DD. It's not really that difficult. You will probably find more help here for the CA because many of us have used it; the Universal app is newer.

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*I* classify him as a homeschooler but technically NZ's Ministry of Education does not because ds is in the correspondence school.  Because NZ has an exam based high school diploma, ds knocked out the exams in 1.5 years while doing a bunch of other courses concurrently.  So DS took the equivalent of 5 AP exams, and now has his high school diploma.  The NZ system does not count any of his university classes (he had to take the high school level linear algebra exam because they would not count his A+ in a second year linear algebra course at the local university), nor will they count his post secondary diploma in music, nor any of his AoPS classes in both math and programming.  Nor of course his homeschooled classes in Mandarin, philosophy, econ, current events, or history.  

 

What I don't want to happen is for him (or me) to get in trouble for calling him one thing when the ministry calls him something else.  Is this a problem?  Also, this is part of what confuses me about who writes the school report?  The school or me? 

I would call the schools on your son's list and pose this question to them.  I would be reluctant to call your son a homeschooler if your home country does not classify him as such without checking with the college here. 

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*I* classify him as a homeschooler but technically NZ's Ministry of Education does not because ds is in the correspondence school.  Because NZ has an exam based high school diploma, ds knocked out the exams in 1.5 years while doing a bunch of other courses concurrently.  So DS took the equivalent of 5 AP exams, and now has his high school diploma.  The NZ system does not count any of his university classes (he had to take the high school level linear algebra exam because they would not count his A+ in a second year linear algebra course at the local university), nor will they count his post secondary diploma in music, nor any of his AoPS classes in both math and programming.  Nor of course his homeschooled classes in Mandarin, philosophy, econ, current events, or history.  

 

What I don't want to happen is for him (or me) to get in trouble for calling him one thing when the ministry calls him something else.  Is this a problem?  Also, this is part of what confuses me about who writes the school report?  The school or me? 

 

With this complicated schooling situation, I would classify him as a homeschooler and explain the details in your school profile and guidance counselor letter.

You would be the one to submit the school report, because you are the primary school.

All transcripts from different institutions are submitted.

My DD took college classes while in high school; the college had to submit an official transcript, but I included all her coursework, including these classes, on my official homeschool high school transcript. I would have done the same had she taken some classes at the public high school.

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So the secondary school report is the homeschool profile, but the mid-year and final school reports are the councilor letter? They should use a different word than report!!

No, the mid-year report is the senior year Transcript with mid-year grades listed, and the final report is the Final Transcript with all final grades listed.

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What is the purpose of the secondary school report?  Why would a university care about demographics, class offerings, and average SAT scores?  I ask because the correspondence school is actually classified as a low decile school because it takes in itinerant workers, behaviourally challenged kids, low IQ kids, etc. You can only get into the correspondence school with a reason saying you can't go to school.  DS got in as a "elite musician" bascially saying he couldn't go to school because of all his performances, lessons, rehearsals etc happened during school hours.  So basically, DS is like one of  their all time best kids.  They have bent over backwards to accommodate him in a way that is apparently very unusual.  Do I want a secondary school report from them instead of doing a homeschool profile?

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It sounds like it would be to your advantage to present your son as a homeschooler. The admissions office at MIT is very reasonable, & I seriously doubt that it would be a problem!

 

Personally, I'd make a transcript that reflected all of your son's various home study, university, and online (AoPS) courses. Then I'd attach his NZ diploma to the app (or have them send it directly if that's possible). Then I'd also attach a copy of his NZ university transcript.

 

He can report all of his musical stuff in his application under the extracurriculars and awards sections. Then consider sending an additional LOR from his musical director, since that's a strong point. 

 

As snowbeltmom said, you'll need to line up LOR writers for math/science and humanities/social science. See here for what MIT wants. They don't have music listed in humanities/soc sci, but I can tell you that my son used his piano teacher of 10 years back when he applied, and they accepted it. I did call & check whether that would be OK first.

 

If you do go with the homeschooler classification, then you fill out the school report & the homeschool profile (they are different). That's a big advantage in my book! I wouldn't want a third party filling it out, because it gives you a chance to tell your kid's story (school report) and give insight into how you made your educational choices (school profile).

Edited by Kathy in Richmond
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So it does not matter that he is NOT classified as a homeschooler with the Ministry of Education?  I won't get in trouble?

 

Also, his 'learning adviser' at the correspondence school knows him really well now and given what she wrote for the award's ceremony last year, would write a glowing letter.  Should I have her write one in addition to me?  Would it carry more weight than a guidance councilor letter from a mother?

 

With this complicated schooling situation, I would classify him as a homeschooler and explain the details in your school profile and guidance counselor letter.

You would be the one to submit the school report, because you are the primary school.

 

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What is the purpose of the secondary school report?  Why would a university care about demographics, class offerings, and average SAT scores?  I ask because the correspondence school is actually classified as a low decile school because it takes in itinerant workers, behaviourally challenged kids, low IQ kids, etc. You can only get into the correspondence school with a reason saying you can't go to school.  DS got in as a "elite musician" bascially saying he couldn't go to school because of all his performances, lessons, rehearsals etc happened during school hours.  So basically, DS is like one of  their all time best kids.  They have bent over backwards to accommodate him in a way that is apparently very unusual.  Do I want a secondary school report from them instead of doing a homeschool profile?

 

I have read that schools that employ a holistic approach to admissions care about the bolded because this information helps them evaluate the rigor of the class offerings when comparing applicants from different schools, among other things.

 

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So recommendations,

 

His English teacher at the correspondence school would write a really nice letter I think.  And his music teacher for sure.  And his learning adviser at the correspondence school would write a great one.  But we are actually a bit stumped for maths/science.  His chemistry teacher at the correspondence school thinks the world of him, but would not have as much to say as some of the math people ds has worked with over they years (and travelled to Hong Kong for the IMO). However, the chemistry teacher has basically never taught someone as good as DS, so he is kind of one of a kind in her books.  But all the competition maths people see advanced kids like ds all the time.  DS is one of 6 team members for the IMO, he doesn't stand out as amazing because all of those kids are amazing.  And for his math class at the university where he got the top mark out of 100 kids, he never met the prof after class or anything because the class was so easy that he did not need any help.  So I don't know really who should write the letter for STEM.

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I have read that schools that employ a holistic approach to admissions care about the bolded because this information helps them evaluate the rigor of the class offerings when comparing applicants from different schools, among other things.

 

 

Well, NZ has a national system where all grades are moderated.  All schools offer the same courses and give the exact same grades for the same work (they must send representative marked up papers to the moderating body every term to keep them in check).  So this is kind of a non-event.  DS has a *national* class rank because of this national system.  Do I explain that?

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No, the mid-year report is the senior year Transcript with mid-year grades listed, and the final report is the Final Transcript with all final grades listed.

 

Well, got a problem there.  The mid-year report would be an end of the year report here if it comes from the Correspondence school (we are 6 months shifted in school year).  I guess that I fill this out and include all his other coursework outside of the correspondence school?

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What is the purpose of the secondary school report?  Why would a university care about demographics, class offerings, and average SAT scores?  I ask because the correspondence school is actually classified as a low decile school because it takes in itinerant workers, behaviourally challenged kids, low IQ kids, etc. You can only get into the correspondence school with a reason saying you can't go to school.  DS got in as a "elite musician" bascially saying he couldn't go to school because of all his performances, lessons, rehearsals etc happened during school hours.  So basically, DS is like one of  their all time best kids.  They have bent over backwards to accommodate him in a way that is apparently very unusual.  Do I want a secondary school report from them instead of doing a homeschool profile?

 

I would give the homeschool information.

 

The demographic information is actually relevant for a US school, because it gives insight into the socioeconomic composition of the student population and the courses offered.

For example, the student's SAT score may not be stellar, but it may be far above the average of the school; this tells the college that this is an outstanding student from an underperforming school that probably has far fewer resources to offer high level coursework than a school that draws on higher socioeconomic strata. Since school funding in the US is coupled to real estate tax, the differences between school districts are unbelievably big. Knowing which coursework is offered helps admissions officials to put the transcript into context; if the school does not offer any AP classes, a student cannot be expected to take any - if the school does offer them, not having taken advantage of that would require an explanation if the student applies to a top school.

Does that make sense?

 

This need not be relevant for you. I did not include local demographic info in my school report.

Edited by regentrude
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Well, NZ has a national system where all grades are moderated.  All schools offer the same courses and give the exact same grades for the same work (they must send representative marked up papers to the moderating body every term to keep them in check).  So this is kind of a non-event.  DS has a *national* class rank because of this national system.  Do I explain that?

 

Yes. I would explain this in the school profile.

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So next question.  DS is technically starting the beginning of his 11th grade year as a full time high school student even though he already has his high school diploma and is currently taking classes at the university.  We have worked very hard for this classification so he can continue to compete in the IMO.  When he applies to American schools does he:

 

1)  go back 4 years and count half of 8th grade?  

2) do we recognize that he is 6 months shifted and have him applying to go half way through is 12th grade year?

3) do we go back and count all of 8th grade, and have him apply as attending 6 months after the end of his 12 grade year?

 

Keep in mind that he finished his official high school diploma at the end of 10th grade in the NZ school year (so december)

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Well, got a problem there.  The mid-year report would be an end of the year report here if it comes from the Correspondence school (we are 6 months shifted in school year).  I guess that I fill this out and include all his other coursework outside of the correspondence school?

 

Your situation is quite different, since it sounds like your school year will be complete before your son actually applies to colleges.  In that case, there would be no need for a mid-year report since your year would be complete.  Here, colleges request a mid-year report in February mainly to ensure that "senioritis" hasn't become a problem.

 

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So next question.  DS is technically starting the beginning of his 11th grade year as a full time high school student even though he already has his high school diploma and is currently taking classes at the university.  We have worked very hard for this classification so he can continue to compete in the IMO.  When he applies to American schools does he:

 

1)  go back 4 years and count half of 8th grade?  

2) do we recognize that he is 6 months shifted and have him applying to go half way through is 12th grade year?

3) do we go back and count all of 8th grade, and have him apply as attending 6 months after the end of his 12 grade year?

 

Keep in mind that he finished his official high school diploma at the end of 10th grade in the NZ school year (so december)

 

This is a question I would ask the admissions office. 

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Your situation is quite different, since it sounds like your school year will be complete before your son actually applies to colleges.  In that case, there would be no need for a mid-year report since your year would be complete.  Here, colleges request a mid-year report in February mainly to ensure that "senioritis" hasn't become a problem.

 

 

Well, not exactly. For his second semester senior year (in terms of the American school year) he will do English and Biology (through correspondence school), a university math class, WOOT, Economics, and Mandarin.  So we will have official grades.  

 

In NZ, all courses are built up by teachers from a large number of official units.  So 15 units available in maths, and the teacher chooses 6 for a course.  Each unit has a separate grade and ends up on the transcript listed separated.  There is no course grade, only unit grades that will be clustered under a heading like Biology.  So he will have unit grades from the Correspondence school, that will end up on his final transcript.  This final transcript will be certain to give the admissions department a heart attack.

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I hear that students should be taking the most advanced courses that are available at a school.  In NZ, level 3 is like an AP (kind of), but there are also 'scholarship exams.' These exams divvy up the scholarship merit money in NZ, and most advanced kids take them, often many of them.  The exams include about 25% more material than the level 3 exams, but only include the 'excellence' level questions on them, so kind of spread out the top students.  My ds does NOT want to take these exams for a number of reasons.  1) They are VERY perscribed, and he is done with that kind of learning. 2) They don't contain that much more information (maybe 20%) than the level 3 classes, they are basically used to have advanced kids have something to do for their last year, kind of just filling time. 3) He wants to do more subjects rather than rehash the ones he has already studied. 4) The correspondence school teachers rarely put kids through these exams so there is actually a lack of competence and ds feels his scores on these prescribed exams would be heavily reliant on the teacher's ability to help him. So he will not shine. 5) He doesn't need scholarships in NZ because he plans to go to university in the USA. 

 

However, the other kids applying from NZ will have scholarship exams on their transcripts for sure.  Do I want to discuss this in the homeschool profile or the councilor's letter?  Or do I want to just not bring it up?

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I hear that students should be taking the most advanced courses that are available at a school.  In NZ, level 3 is like an AP (kind of), but there are also 'scholarship exams.' These exams divvy up the scholarship merit money in NZ, and most advanced kids take them, often many of them.  The exams include about 25% more material than the level 3 exams, but only include the 'excellence' level questions on them, so kind of spread out the top students.  My ds does NOT want to take these exams for a number of reasons.  1) They are VERY perscribed, and he is done with that kind of learning. 2) They don't contain that much more information (maybe 20%) than the level 3 classes, they are basically used to have advanced kids have something to do for their last year, kind of just filling time. 3) He wants to do more subjects rather than rehash the ones he has already studied. 4) The correspondence school teachers rarely put kids through these exams so there is actually a lack of competence and ds feels his scores on these prescribed exams would be heavily reliant on the teacher's ability to help him. So he will not shine. 5) He doesn't need scholarships in NZ because he plans to go to university in the USA. 

 

However, the other kids applying from NZ will have scholarship exams on their transcripts for sure.  Do I want to discuss this in the homeschool profile or the councilor's letter?  Or do I want to just not bring it up?

 

You can to discuss this in the homeschool profile and the counselor letter.

 

In the profile, I discussed general schooling philosophy and resources used. In the letter, I discussed the specific personality of my student, and how that affected educational choices (for example, I mentioned that DD thrived on live interaction and thus chose college classes over self study for AP exams, explaining the lack of APs)

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Thanks Kathy!

 

I'll go check out your link!

 

We've been in touch with MIT admissions, and they were really like 'do what every you think best to represent your student.' Which makes it kind of hard on me, because I don't have a clue!

 

*I* classify him as a homeschooler but technically NZ's Ministry of Education does not because ds is in the correspondence school. Because NZ has an exam based high school diploma, ds knocked out the exams in 1.5 years while doing a bunch of other courses concurrently. So DS took the equivalent of 5 AP exams, and now has his high school diploma. The NZ system does not count any of his university classes (he had to take the high school level linear algebra exam because they would not count his A+ in a second year linear algebra course at the local university), nor will they count his post secondary diploma in music, nor any of his AoPS classes in both math and programming. Nor of course his homeschooled classes in Mandarin, philosophy, econ, current events, or history.

 

What I don't want to happen is for him (or me) to get in trouble for calling him one thing when the ministry calls him something else. Is this a problem? Also, this is part of what confuses me about who writes the school report? The school or me?

Personally, I think your son would be best represented as a homeschooler, as the official regular school was only a portion of his educational experience. I think you writing the guidance counselor letter would put in him the best position because you will be able to completely explain his unique educational path.

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So recommendations,

 

His English teacher at the correspondence school would write a really nice letter I think.  And his music teacher for sure.  And his learning adviser at the correspondence school would write a great one.  But we are actually a bit stumped for maths/science.  His chemistry teacher at the correspondence school thinks the world of him, but would not have as much to say as some of the math people ds has worked with over they years (and travelled to Hong Kong for the IMO). However, the chemistry teacher has basically never taught someone as good as DS, so he is kind of one of a kind in her books.  But all the competition maths people see advanced kids like ds all the time.  DS is one of 6 team members for the IMO, he doesn't stand out as amazing because all of those kids are amazing.  And for his math class at the university where he got the top mark out of 100 kids, he never met the prof after class or anything because the class was so easy that he did not need any help.  So I don't know really who should write the letter for STEM.

 

Just my thoughts on recommenders:

I'd give some serious consideration to getting a recommendation letter from the NZ IMO coaches. MIT (using that as an example, since I know their admissions better) likes to see how kids function in such amazing groups. They want to know that their applicants enjoy working in a very strong peer group (not that they're the absolute best at the IMO!) because MIT is a tough place & they want to know that applicants will thrive there, not wilt when they're no longer the "best" or get discouraged when they don't get 100% or A's on everything they do.

 

Edited by Kathy in Richmond
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