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Yes, dealing with someone with NPD is perpetually crazy-making. They do NOT think like most people and will anything to remain "on top."

 

I'm living it every day, and I have to remind myself constantly that I cannot fix it, and that the reality is that they care zero about those around them unless it fits their purposes.

 

I wasn't there, but there was a scene at a surgeon's office on Monday that escalated to a shouting match. I heard all about it from the individual with NPD (thankfully I had to go to work, so not long), and then the office called me to tell me as the emergency contact that a certified letter would be coming to record that they are being dropped from the practice unless a psychiatric evaluation clears the individual with NPD. The doctor's office said that they almost had to call the police, it was so bad. From all I know, the doctor was completely professional. Thankfully I was gone most of the day after the letter arrived and didn't hear about it until many hours later. I briefly sympathized and found something else I had to do.

 

This week isn't going to be any better for me that way. There's a worse crisis on the horizon.

((Hugs)) I sure get it.

 

 

I get what Sadie says about how some of us refer to NPD relatives, the stigma, etc. But I am not exaggerating when I say we have PTSD from dealing with this person. We have therapists of our own so we can keep from curling up in a fetal position in a corner and becoming jello unable to function. We take Zanax because of the physical fallout of the anxiety and panic attacks he causes. My brother has had a stroke as a direct result of this stress. His neurologist said he would testify on my brother's behalf if he wanted to sue our DNA donor that is how bad it is. (Laughable since he is going bankrupt.) The toll it has taken means for us this man is literally only the sum total of his diagnosis.

 

Within the general context of the wider discussion of mental illness or whether or not NPD is a mental illness or is simply people who really do get jollies off destroying others, I can see the necessity of more objective distance, judgment neutral terms being optimal. But victims should at least get a smidge of compassion and grace extended to them when they are in a living hell they cannot escape. Maybe in order to better facilitate a more objective discussion, victims should not post here.

 

As I said before though, someone needs to check out the possibility of RAD/NPD connection.

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((Hugs)) I sure get it.

 

 

I get what Sadie says about how some of us refer to NPD relatives, the stigma, etc. But I am not exaggerating when I say we have PTSD from dealing with this person. We have therapists of our own so we can keep from curling up in a fetal position in a corner and becoming jello unable to function. We take Zanax because of the physical fallout of the anxiety and panic attacks he causes. My brother has had a stroke as a direct result of this stress. His neurologist said he would testify on my brother's behalf if he wanted to sue our DNA donor that is how bad it is. (Laughable since he is going bankrupt.) The toll it has taken means for us this man is literally only the sum total of his diagnosis.

 

Within the general context of the wider discussion of mental illness or whether or not NPD is a mental illness or is simply people who really do get jollies off destroying others, I can see the necessity of more objective distance, judgment neutral terms being optimal. But victims should at least get a smidge of compassion and grace extended to them when they are in a living hell they cannot escape. Maybe in order to better facilitate a more objective discussion, victims should not post here.

 

As I said before though, someone needs to check out the possibility of RAD/NPD connection.

 

Yes, I can tell this discussion has been triggering for some and I regret that. I don't think any of us intends or wants to further hurt people who are already hurt. Nothing I myself have written was meant to bully or shame the victims of years of NPD interactions.

 

I understand in a small way the psychological damage; my husband's illness is not NPD but after 15 years of marriage and of interacting with the disease I too have begun to experience PTSD symptoms. Things that I used to be able to shrug off because I understood them to be caused by the illness now affect me much more severely on a personal emotional level; trauma builds on itself and wears down our coping ability. Dh has in some ways made a lot of progress through treatment, but I've also come to the realization that the underlying difficulties are not likely to ever really be cured; the prospect of many more years of dealing with these issues is exhausting to even think about. 

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I will say one more thing. The gas lighting that people with NPD do makes it difficult for their own therapists and psychiatrists to see what it is they are doing making it more difficult for victims to be taken seriously.

 

Sometimes I think that if victims were taken far more seriously by mental health researchers, there would be more action taken. As it is, I do not get the impression that the mental health community thinks NPD is a "big deal".

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I will say one more thing. The gas lighting that people with NPD do makes it difficult for their own therapists and psychiatrists to see what it is they are doing making it more difficult for victims to be taken seriously.

 

Sometimes I think that if victims were taken far more seriously by mental health researchers, there would be more action taken. As it is, I do not get the impression that the mental health community thinks NPD is a "big deal".

It is also very difficult to convince someone with NPD to actually see a therapist to get the help they need. 

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I will say one more thing. The gas lighting that people with NPD do makes it difficult for their own therapists and psychiatrists to see what it is they are doing making it more difficult for victims to be taken seriously.

 

Sometimes I think that if victims were taken far more seriously by mental health researchers, there would be more action taken. As it is, I do not get the impression that the mental health community thinks NPD is a "big deal".

I think people have a really hard time just believing it - it's so irrational and unreal.

 

For 10 years I tried to explain it to dh, he didn't exactly NOT believe ME, he just couldn't conceive of it being true. Until he saw it. And he had the same issues with people just not quite believing/understanding him. Who would believe that a little 60+ year old woman would shove and scream at a 6ft+ 30 year old man?

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((Hugs)) I sure get it.

 

 

I get what Sadie says about how some of us refer to NPD relatives, the stigma, etc. But I am not exaggerating when I say we have PTSD from dealing with this person. We have therapists of our own so we can keep from curling up in a fetal position in a corner and becoming jello unable to function. We take Zanax because of the physical fallout of the anxiety and panic attacks he causes. My brother has had a stroke as a direct result of this stress. His neurologist said he would testify on my brother's behalf if he wanted to sue our DNA donor that is how bad it is. (Laughable since he is going bankrupt.) The toll it has taken means for us this man is literally only the sum total of his diagnosis.

 

Within the general context of the wider discussion of mental illness or whether or not NPD is a mental illness or is simply people who really do get jollies off destroying others, I can see the necessity of more objective distance, judgment neutral terms being optimal. But victims should at least get a smidge of compassion and grace extended to them when they are in a living hell they cannot escape. Maybe in order to better facilitate a more objective discussion, victims should not post here.

 

As I said before though, someone needs to check out the possibility of RAD/NPD connection.

 

 

if victims don't post/talk about their experiences, it will not be as well understood.  these are not people doing this out where it is obvious to those around them. it takes proximity in unguarded moments when they feel free to play their mind  games.  this is something that requires control - as they can control their behavior in front of outsiders.  they hide their true behavior from observers.

 

exploring a link between the two is interesting- maybe something can be done, maybe not.  I have more hope for helping the children than I do full blown adults.

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I think people have a really hard time just believing it - it's so irrational and unreal.

 

Apart from this board, I have just a handful of friends who really believe me and "get" it.

 

My therapist takes it very seriously. Her speciality is trauma, and she treats a lot of people affected by individuals with NPD.

 

But yes, it's very hard to study and doesn't get a lot of play in the research side of psychology.

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I will say one more thing. The gas lighting that people with NPD do makes it difficult for their own therapists and psychiatrists to see what it is they are doing making it more difficult for victims to be taken seriously.

 

Sometimes I think that if victims were taken far more seriously by mental health researchers, there would be more action taken. As it is, I do not get the impression that the mental health community thinks NPD is a "big deal".

 

we've had people on this forum who dont' take it seriously, or "think it's not a big deal."

it's so subtle.  these people are master manipulators - and yes, therapists CAN be manipulated. 

not sure if it's a requirement or not - but victims do feel like 'we're the ones who are crazy".  I felt vindicated and validated the first time I learned about this becasue I finally had validation *I* wasn't crazy!

gaslighting is super sutble.  it's so insidious.

 

I think people have a really hard time just believing it - it's so irrational and unreal.

 

For 10 years I tried to explain it to dh, he didn't exactly NOT believe ME, he just couldn't conceive of it being true. Until he saw it. And he had the same issues with people just not quite believing/understanding him. Who would believe that a little 60+ year old woman would shove and scream at a 6ft+ 30 year old man?

 

took 10 years for dh to finally "get it" too.  and his mother is manipulative and controlling!  (not in the same league as my npd person.)

and many people have no experience - and we get people who so can't imagine someone choosing these actions they come up with "who would willing chose to do this?"

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Apart from this board, I have just a handful of friends who really believe me and "get" it.

 

My therapist takes it very seriously. Her speciality is trauma, and she treats a lot of people affected by individuals with NPD.

 

But yes, it's very hard to study and doesn't get a lot of play in the research side of psychology.

 

my mil is nuts . . .she manipulates, she controls, she will drive you insane. she is not npd. (she even got a degree in counseling before she got her rn . . . )  I did have an experience with her I do think something in her brain is broken . . .and she's worse when she's bored.  . .

 

she was leaving the country for a year, so my sil invited some friends to come live with her.  mil's visa was delayed for 30 days.   sil went to her friends and apologized in advance "oh, no problem."  30 days, that was all they had to last was 30 days . . . it wasn't long before "when... is. ..she...leaving!?!?!?!?"

I have come to love and respect my mil - but I'm not naive either and you couldn't pay me $1M to allow her to live with me.

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guess she missed genesis "a man shall leave father and mother and shall cleave unto his wife"....

I'm sorry, she probably wouldn't appreciate a bottle of percocet.  ;p

 

 

there are some advantages to being the scapegoat . . . .

I was also the scapgoat - my brother the golden child. (and he's  . . npd.)  my sister was the favorite-victim.  npd (my grandmother) had to have someone to rescue . . .

my father was not mean - I adored him. he committed suicide just after my 12th birthday.  my mother . . . .was dysfunctional due to her own mother.

I take great satisfaction in having broken the pattern.   Most of my kids are adults (two completely established, two in college) - and they have a great time together.  I derive much joy in watching  them interact.

 

I'm so, so sorry about your dad.

 

Alley

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I'm so, so sorry about your dad.

 

Alley

 

thank you.

 

It's been many decades.  it was traumatizing at the times - in ways I can't express. I'm not sure that is a grief I will ever experience again, there is nothing I can imagine that would be as bad  or worse.   I'm sad my kids never got to meet him (my fil died when  dh was 20 - so they didn't get him either.), I miss him, but I'm over it.  

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I *think* it is about making sure personal boundaries are at least as sturdy as one's morals are.

 

Having put it into those words for the first time while I was in the shower ten minutes ago, I haven't had time to do a general survey. :p

 

I certainly got into the pickle I'm in because, for various reasons, my boundaries were and are weaker than my overdeveloped sense of morality.

 

I agree with this.  I usually do really well with BPD people because I can do this pretty well for the most part - and NPD people don't have time for it, they just go away.  For me, its about having a strong sense of where my duty does and doesn't lie, and how that intersects with my moral views on helping others, as well as my other obligations in life.  What I find interesting though, is that as a result I've been able to maintain a much stronger view of what my moral duty includes, without being overwhelmed by it - I can maintain good relationships with connections that are BPD types without being put upon or taken advantage of.

 

My sister, OTOH, has never been easily able to separate her sense of what she owes to people like that from what is right and her emotions about it, and as a result she ends up cutting off those people pretty much entirely, and in some ways doing less than she really should (for example with my dad.)

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The thing that always shocked me was the pure rage when my dh's mother's manipulations didn't work on me. Dh's mother would literally talk and HISS at me through clenched teeth as her face literally contorted. And always when I was the only one who could see her, too. And the ironical thing was that I was usually clueless as to what I had done 'wrong' to elicit such hatred and rage. And it was only when I began reading about NPD on these boards that I truly understood.

I am with you there. The rage, the seething rage when we don't take the bait is just so horrible. Dna donor is a control freak extraordinaire so us refusing to take the bait is for him a loss of control of is and met with brutal verbal abuse. His face turns burgundy, every vein in his neck and forehead becomes engorged, his fists clench, and out spews a vomitous, gelatenous mess of accusations, insults, and twisted historical statements claiming wounds we caused except none of it ever happened. He wants to leave us in an emotional heap, however he has lost the war against us because we no longer have a shred of care what happens to him. We no longer engage. We no longer respond. He gets nothing.

 

I told him two weeks ago, " You are wasting oxygen on this performance."

 

He was left huffing and puffing and confused. He is used to it working. I just walked away. It was the first time I had seen him in a month - we live two blocks away. I check on mom during his afternoon nap now. I can probably manage to check on her all the way to Easter without speaking to him or being in his presence. I do not feel guilty about this.

 

But yah...those rages are EPIC! The Harry Potter 3 scene of Serious Black Azkaban photo on the front page of the newspaper is a pretty accurate portrayal of the anger. Any sense of loss of control is big trigger.

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...

 

I have often wondered if NPD is the grown up version Reactive Attachment Disorder. I used to do respite care for foster parents with RAD kids in their homes. There are some similarities. While likely most NPD's may not resort to the violence that many RAD kids exhibit, maybe the reason for that is some learned self control in adulthood.

 

Someone should study it. If NPD affects 6.5% of the population, then finding them while in childhood is really important. If it is related to RAD, then maybe experts working on both ends of the problem can find a treatment that limits the carnage.

 

I've heard it quietly said that there is a connection between attachment disorders and cluster B personality disorders, but children with attachment disorders deserve love (and adoptive families if they so need) anyway, and it would be unethical to diagnose a child with a personality disorder.  Especially because there is a hazy period in young adults where it's difficult to say if they're simply still working through grief and trauma and what it means to be an adult until they are somewhere between 25-28 or so. Also, many mental illnesses tend to manifest in the late teens - twenties.

 

I personally think it would be much MORE ethical to publicly discuss these sorts of realities because it would better prepare adoptive parents.  It's much easier to remain calm, focus on structure, and not take things personally when you understand exactly what is going on in a person who seems to be without compassion.

 

Of course, adopting a child is different from being raised by or having inlaws with something like NPD or BPD. I think it can be more difficult to suss out what should have been from what is when you're dealing with a parent.

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Apart from this board, I have just a handful of friends who really believe me and "get" it.

 

My therapist takes it very seriously. Her speciality is trauma, and she treats a lot of people affected by individuals with NPD.

 

But yes, it's very hard to study and doesn't get a lot of play in the research side of psychology.

 

My hair stylist would tell me about her sil . .. and I described npd to her and she was like "*that's it!".  i spoke with her about boundaries - that that is really all you can do.

 

 

I don't believe that NPD is a mental illness. It's a learned coping mechanism that works for the narc on a certain level, and in a way, the behaviors become a powerful and useful means to their own happiness. Happiness for the false self of themselves they've created. Their true self is deep inside and is hurt/devastated, fearful, insecure, and empty at various levels.

 

Is there a varying degree of self-awareness on their part? Yes. Some can see that how they are interacting with people is not working, but they don't quite know what it is that they're doing wrong, and continue on. I believe that these people can be helped.

 

There are others, though, who seem hardened to the point that they cannot empathize with people, and seem just so entrenched in the abusive patterns that it becomes obvious, over time, that they just aren't going to change. One can avoid this type of person for ones own safety without being hateful and malicious in return. I think that this is the "no contact" people are talking about here.

 

my one former golden-child npd .. . I can see the insecurity and need for approval.  his utter cluelessness about why people are so ticked off with him.  if you back him into a corner with a reason - his response is invariably - you need to get over it. (so, I should just get over you getting onto my dh's computer without permission and deleting files?  he would say "yes".  dh was in auditing - his back-ups have back-ups.   I didn't confront him because ..  .totally pointless.  he simply became persona non grata in my home.)  for him - there is a degree of pity.  he's unwilling to learn,

 

my original npd .. . i *never* saw any insecurity - except possibly in her sense jealousy that her sisters had "stuff" she wished she had.   she made me feel like you are only worth anything if you make a lot of money and have a fancy home.   it took me a long time to get over that - and be able to see people as having intrinsic value because they are people.  to be able to feel that, and not just lip service.  she really resented that I, her scapegoat, married well.   and didn't do drugs, or get pg outside of married. I eventually learned how she twisted things in her mind so I was guilty of a number of things her favorite-victim did - so she could justify continuing to keep her favorite-victim as her "favorite".  (a very dubious honor.)

 

eta: golden-npd - would probably have denied deleting the files . . . .

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I don't believe that NPD is a mental illness. It's a learned coping mechanism that works for the narc on a certain level, and in a way, the behaviors become a powerful and useful means to their own happiness. Happiness for the false self of themselves they've created. Their true self is deep inside and is hurt/devastated, fearful, insecure, and empty at various levels.

 

Is there a varying degree of self-awareness on their part? Yes. Some can see that how they are interacting with people is not working, but they don't quite know what it is that they're doing wrong, and continue on. I believe that these people can be helped.

 

There are others, though, who seem hardened to the point that they cannot empathize with people, and seem just so entrenched in the abusive patterns that it becomes obvious, over time, that they just aren't going to change. One can avoid this type of person for ones own safety without being hateful and malicious in return. I think that this is the "no contact" people are talking about here.

The idea that it is not a mental illness goes counter to brain scan evidence showing abnormalities in the brains of people with NPD.

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I have never heard anyone attach stigma to a narcissist. They accept the person, but decline to receive abuse. What I mostly hear is pity. People know the narcissist can never have enough, never develop empathy, and never stop manipuating.. In todays world of accepting diversity, its just another choice. When you have nonabusers to hang out with, you don't choose to hang with abusers. People like to associate with people that allow them to be themselves.

While this may have been your experience, it hasn't been mine, at least not within families.  When raised by a person with NPD you may not even recognize that you are being abused.  You are groomed to accept that you are the one at fault every.single.time.  It makes it very hard to break from that dynamic and recognize the emotional abuse that is happening to you.  Often that abused person returns over and over and over, trying to please the person doing the abusing.  And frequently the person with NPD is very good at looking "normal" even very charming and supportive and helpful to the outside world.  It makes the abused person look almost crazy if they try to share concerns they have about their own treatment.  People frequently don't believe them.

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The challenge, I think, in determining what is really going on with a mental disruption (may or may not be a disorder)

is that it's so very difficult to externally see what's going on. Like a previous poster mentioned, there is no blood work or 

brain scan done, usually, in these instances, and there really should be. But even with that, I think we just don't know 

enough about how the brain works to be able to truly root out causation.

 

And, whether or not you agree with me, I also come from the belief that we are all sinners (our first and foremost preference

is to please ourselves, no matter who we are, despite what we know or think should be done) and thus the age old adage of,

"There, but for the Grace of God, go I."

 

I once met a woman with a service dog (for seizures) who I then met again one or two times while shopping where I live. After a couple of encounters,

a couple things didn't quite settle with me about her. LOOKED like the same woman. Had the same dog. But her hair was a different color and

she gave me a different name. As I was talking to another psychology friend of mine, she pointed out that perhaps there was a dual personality. The more I think about it, the more I think my friend is right. You just can't completely know!

 

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I am very aware. I live with it. What I see is that the child eventually realizes that other parents don't act that way, and that their parent has issues. They do some research, some counseling, put boundaries in place,and learn to live. Joy becomes available to them,as does humanity. There is anger along the way..at the creator and at the community that did not believe, intervene and stop the abuse. There is mourning. They may open their homes to abused cousins and friends of their own children. There is paying it forward, by insistimg that public school provide counselors and mandated reporters. In the end, there is pity,.as there is for others who were dealt a bad genetic hand. But they don't end up stigmatizing the narcissist for the narcissist is what he is, just like a wasp. They want the narcissist to be in a community where it cannot abuse,since it cannot help but be itself. We are seeing the same with sex offenders, and we are restricting them from their prey, rather than advocating extermination. They are what nature made them. Not bad or good, just another genetic variation.

 

Of course ymmv, as I live in a diverse area. People here don't point at deviants,declare them evil and kill them bodily or persuade the community to boycott their businesses. They are what they are, and if they don't kill bodily, they participate in the community as they can. Its a co-exist community.

Sadly I have once again hit my like limit but I wanted to acknowledge your response to my post. Thank you for sharing.  I do appreciate it.

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The idea that it is not a mental illness goes counter to brain scan evidence showing abnormalities in the brains of people with NPD.

 

Brain scans can only show what areas of the brain are being utilized, under what conditions.

 

True, NPD's have different "lights," but then so do ADD people...people listening to music....people in love....people on LSD (or almost anything else)....hungry people....people picturing themselves being chased, or picturing themselves outdoors. None of those things in and of themselves are mental illnesses or indicative of a personality disorder.

 

For layman's [evryone here so far] intents and purposes, all brain scans tell us thus far is what we already know, and what the ancient Egyptians decidedly did not know: that our brains are where our "me-ness" is stored and dealt with.

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While this may have been your experience, it hasn't been mine, at least not within families.  When raised by a person with NPD you may not even recognize that you are being abused.  You are groomed to accept that you are the one at fault every.single.time.  It makes it very hard to break from that dynamic and recognize the emotional abuse that is happening to you.  Often that abused person returns over and over and over, trying to please the person doing the abusing.  And frequently the person with NPD is very good at looking "normal" even very charming and supportive and helpful to the outside world.  It makes the abused person look almost crazy if they try to share concerns they have about their own treatment.  People frequently don't believe them.

 

this. :iagree:   not only do you think this mistreatment is normal, you think you deserve it!  so, it is freaky to interact with normal people.

and it is so outside the norm - people can't comprehend it.  so, you must be the one with the problem, ungrateful brat, etc.  exaggerating at best.  and . .. if you finally get mentally healthy (because they do a number on your mental-emotional health), you still can't share anything because if perchance they actually believe you,  you still have to deal with the prejudice that anyone who "survived" that, can't possibly be normal!

 

The challenge, I think, in determining what is really going on with a mental disruption (may or may not be a disorder)

is that it's so very difficult to externally see what's going on. Like a previous poster mentioned, there is no blood work or 

brain scan done, usually, in these instances, and there really should be. But even with that, I think we just don't know 

enough about how the brain works to be able to truly root out causation.

 

 

as has also been mentioned - npd people do not see therapists voluntarily - that requires awareness something is wrong with them that is causing their relationship problems. (if they are bad enough, they get locked up. I well remember one long npd thread where kalanamak posted "these are the minor cases" . .. she saw the more serious ones where their behavior was so ott, the state forcibly sent them to her.) as for the bad enough- my friend's relative cut the break line in his dd's car to keep her from leaving him . . . .and that's still not as bad as some.

 

these people look functional.  they can be charming, they can have a "court" who fawn over them, and will defend them against any accusation they are controlling, manipulative, mean, etc.  they are perfect and do nothing wrong - it's those who are closest and finally realize they're being treated like carp who complain and are made to think they are crazy, are petty, vindictive, etc.  even by some on this thread.

 

eta: there have been studies that indicate some behaviors can actually change the brain so if an 'abnormal' brain scan turns up, which came first?  the abnormal brain?  or the behavior that changed the brain?

Edited by gardenmom5
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Quote forever doesn't work for me

 

 

you still can't share anything because if perchance they actually believe you,  you still have to deal with the prejudice that anyone who "survived" that, can't possibly be normal!

 

 

 

 

Or people will tell you how what YOU have gone through colors your perspective on everything from abuse to your own appetite, spouse and career choice.

 

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eta: there have been studies that indicate some behaviors can actually change the brain so if an 'abnormal' brain scan turns up, which came first? the abnormal brain? or the behavior that changed the brain?

This is true of all mental illness.

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Brain scans can only show what areas of the brain are being utilized, under what conditions.

 

True, NPD's have different "lights," but then so do ADD people...people listening to music....people in love....people on LSD (or almost anything else)....hungry people....people picturing themselves being chased, or picturing themselves outdoors. None of those things in and of themselves are mental illnesses or indicative of a personality disorder.

 

For layman's [evryone here so far] intents and purposes, all brain scans tell us thus far is what we already know, and what the ancient Egyptians decidedly did not know: that our brains are where our "me-ness" is stored and dealt with.

Depends on the type of scan.

 

One of the research reports I linked above found physical differences in the brains of people with NPD--thinner matter in the cortex that is involved in empathy.

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I am with you there. The rage, the seething rage when we don't take the bait is just so horrible. Dna donor is a control freak extraordinaire so us refusing to take the bait is for him a loss of control of is and met with brutal verbal abuse. His face turns burgundy, every vein in his neck and forehead becomes engorged, his fists clench, and out spews a vomitous, gelatenous mess of accusations, insults, and twisted historical statements claiming wounds we caused except none of it ever happened. He wants to leave us in an emotional heap, however he has lost the war against us because we no longer have a shred of care what happens to him. We no longer engage. We no longer respond. He gets nothing.

 

I told him two weeks ago, " You are wasting oxygen on this performance."

 

He was left huffing and puffing and confused. He is used to it working. I just walked away. It was the first time I had seen him in a month - we live two blocks away. I check on mom during his afternoon nap now. I can probably manage to check on her all the way to Easter without speaking to him or being in his presence. I do not feel guilty about this.

 

But yah...those rages are EPIC! The Harry Potter 3 scene of Serious Black Azkaban photo on the front page of the newspaper is a pretty accurate portrayal of the anger. Any sense of loss of control is big trigger.Ah yes.

Yes. Not taking the bait is sure to trigger this response. I was called a "bitchy bully" when I didn't take the bait on him threatening to sell my wedding ring because I didn't have it on at the time. Then he turned around and told me to stop calling him names. LOL Find that the behavior i ma accused of is most often the behavior he can't control in himself.

 

It's really hard to be compassionate with someone like this. I go back and forth with feeling sorry for him and downright scorn.

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This is true of all mental illness.

 

if it makes you feel better,  just keep telling yourself all of this is out of their control.

 

others have different experiences and opinions.  I'm willing to agree to disagree - please stop trying to convince me it's all out of their control. I've seen people who were reacting out of their inability to control due to mental illness/chemistry.  I watched my npd derive too much pleasure from what she did to demean people - and control what she did in front of others from whom she wanted to hide the behavior.  that requires both control and awareness.

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Well, "this" child didn't learn about narcissism until she was 52! I am thrilled to finally be understanding what's happened to me. No one on here is "pointing out deviants" so that they can be killed, or whatever, for crying out loud. You just sound really judgemental and self-righteous when you lecture the victims on here. Do you lecture rape victims, too?

I am sharing my experience. Sorry you don't like my reality,but that doesn't give you license to be less than civil..please read the board rules and edit your post.

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You should know that our criminal justice system and community mental health is so crappy in my state that being the worst NPD, the kind that eventually decides to kill someone and then themselves, doesn't get you any help either.

 

He plotted it. Three days before. He got rid of her car keys so she couldn't leave the house without him because he was the only one with keys. He put her cell phone and the handsets for their landlines in the trash and took the trash out to the curb. She searched and searched for three days looking for phones. Couldn't figure out where they'd gone. We were out of town at the time, had no idea she was in danger. He loaded the gun, hid in the car, and then invited her out for a drive.

 

Very cold, very calculating, and monumentally disappointed that she hadn't died. Maintained to the investigating officer that given the opportunity, he would absolutely make sure to take care of her when he got out. Finish the job.

 

So one would expect some sort of major intervention from authorities, right?

 

You would be wrong.

 

He was turfed to the psych ward of a hospital for 17 days. They drugged him into a stupor but otherwise did nothing else and then reported back to the police that he was no longer a threat. He was released to his house because legally he had a right to be there even if she didn't want to be with him. She refused to get a restraining order because some a fool clergy idiot told her that would be a sin...a woman must submit to her husband or risk going to hell. Nice! Don't ask me what I think of the local clergy around here. They are idiots. Lock.stock.and.barrel. She was visited by the pastors of all three local churches. Same advice. Nothing but compassion for him. Didn't care that she was permanently disabled, just cared that she didn't file for divorce and damn her soul for eternity. 

 

There was no follow up from the police or the courts. For THIRTY DAYS!

 

That's when the police file actually landed on the desk of the prosecutor. The prosecutor went a little berserk on the police, found a judge to issue a restraining order which can be done in Michigan under the newer domestic violence laws even if the victim doesn't apply. But they still couldn't legally order him out of the house, and she refused to divorce him;  she came to live here.

 

So you think, "okay now something is being done." Nope. You would be wrong again. It took six months to get an appointment with the state forensic psychologist so in that time he was still pretty free as a bird. The SFP found him to be mentally competent to stand trial, but mentally ill at the time of the "incident", and basically the whole report was so very sad for the poor pathetic man, and no concern whatsoever for my mother's well being or anyone else. Based on a couple of hours with dna donor, the idiot declared dna donor a non safety risk.

 

No kidding.

 

As for the trial, he pleaded guilty to a lesser charge of assault with the intent to do bodily harm. This was with "extenuating" circumstances, ie. being mentally ill at the time of the incident. So one would think that a judge seeing this would say, "Hmmm well if you are so mentally ill that you can't keep yourself from trying to kill someone, then you must be locked up." One would think. One would think he would be remanded to a mental institution.

 

One would be wrong.

 

He was given 5 years probation because the court felt sorry for him. He had to surrender his driver's license and his legally owned guns, and was ordered to see a psychiatrist once per month, and a counselor once per week. And the psych doc since then, feeling sorry for the "poor, poor man", and not giving a rat's ass about anyone else's safety, has weaned him off all the drugs that were essentially keeping him in enough of a stupor that we could manage him and made him docile enough that he probably wasn't a threat to anyone. All he's on is a mild anti-depressant. And he has his probation officer so snowed that the guy has actually told my brother "It sure is a shame your father was tried at all!"

 

So yay for us. He's free to dream it all up again and execute another plot.

 

But according to community mental health, I should be happy. This is a victory for him because he should NEVER for ANY reason be kept away from society because that would be unfair. I should feel sorry for him, and care nothing whatsoever for the well being of anyone else or their safety.

 

This is what I think of the system  :cursing:  :cursing:  :cursing: . The real emoticons that express my feelings on the subject can't be used on such a polite forum.

 

Our only hope was his being remanded to a psych facility or to prison. That's all we had. We got jack squat. So we wait for him to either get so weak from the cancer that he simply can't hurt her again or for him to try to kill her again, maybe succeeding this time.

 

That's the system people. That's what an NPD can do and still be out on the street making new victims. 

 

So no. There is no compassion. I can't drum it up. Can't.be.done. I can only survive. Hopefully. And for the most part, except for just a couple of IRL people, my husband, my counselor, and some hive members here, no one gets it. I post here because sometimes I need to get something off my chest and it is not time to see the counselor, and the two IRL people are busy, dh at work.  Sometimes it is better to say it here, than to let it out on Dh or friends anyway.

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Depends on the type of scan.

 

One of the research reports I linked above found physical differences in the brains of people with NPD--thinner matter in the cortex that is involved in empathy.

But, why is the brain different in people with NPD?  Is it possible that the thinner matter in the cortex involved in empathy is less in NPD than a Non-NPD because the NPD is not using that area of the brain because they seldom empathize with anyone, and as a result, that area of the brain has atrophied? 

 

If a scan is done on an individual after he has had his leg in a cast for 6 weeks, the muscle mass in the leg with the cast will be much less than the muscle mass of the leg that was never in a cast.  Is it possible that a similar effect can be seen in the brain of an NPD?

 

This thread with the different perspectives has been interesting, however, as others have said, the thread began discussing NPD and then evolved along the way to include other conditions.  I have no experience with any of the other conditions that have been mentioned in this thread, so I can't form an opinion one way or the other on whether the behavior is beyond a person's control to prevent.

 

How many of us commenting in this thread have had personal experience with NPD, specifically?  How many who have had experience with NPD think that the behavior is beyond the person's control?

 

I realize at the end of the day, the end result is the same.  However, if I truly thought that the NPD had no control over their actions, I would feel more sympathy for the person than I currently do.  Does that make sense to any of you?

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How many of us commenting in this thread have had personal experience with NPD, specifically?  How many who have had experience with NPD think that the behavior is beyond the person's control?

 

I realize at the end of the day, the end result is the same.  However, if I truly thought that the NPD had no control over their actions, I would feel more sympathy for the person than I currently do.  Does that make sense to any of you?

 

npd specifically.  my grandmother was given an inordinate amount of influence in our lives by my broken mother - but we still had more distance than if she lived in the same household.

I believe she knew exactly what she was doing, what she wanted, and she could control what she did and the whens and wheres so people she didn't want to see her being untoward, wouldn't.  outsiders and distant family thought she was a good person.  they were hardly ever around her.

eta: one of her sister's lived near her.  everyone loved this sister (she had no children.) and she often had nieces and nephews staying over at her house.  she came to me one day crying, wanting to know why my grandmother hated her.  my grandmother could hold a grudge for so long, she couldn't remember why she was angry, only that she was and you "owed" her something.  never mind nothing was ever good enough to make-up for her being angry at you.  and if we didn't respond to her - she'd force my grandfather to chew us out.  

Edited by gardenmom5
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npd specifically.  my grandmother was given an inordinate amount of influence in our lives by my broken mother - but we still had more distance than if she lived in the same household.

I believe she knew exactly what she was doing, what she wanted, and she could control what she did and the whens and wheres so people she didn't want to see her being untoward, wouldn't.  outsiders and distant family thought she was a good person.  they were hardly ever around her.

 

barf

 

Stuff like this just gives me the willies when I hear it.  There were some people in my life growing up who took care of us when my parents were in the hospital.  They were in and out a lot.  They acted quite nice and sweet and helpful to anyone else. To us (my sister and me)?  They were a-holes.  Abusive a-holes.  I don't have much positive to say about them.

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But, why is the brain different in people with NPD?  Is it possible that the thinner matter in the cortex involved in empathy is less in NPD than a Non-NPD because the NPD is not using that area of the brain because they seldom empathize with anyone, and as a result, that area of the brain has atrophied? 

 

If a scan is done on an individual after he has had his leg in a cast for 6 weeks, the muscle mass in the leg with the cast will be much less than the muscle mass of the leg that was never in a cast.  Is it possible that a similar effect can be seen in the brain of an NPD?

 

This thread with the different perspectives has been interesting, however, as others have said, the thread began discussing NPD and then evolved along the way to include other conditions.  I have no experience with any of the other conditions that have been mentioned in this thread, so I can't form an opinion one way or the other on whether the behavior is beyond a person's control to prevent.

 

How many of us commenting in this thread have had personal experience with NPD, specifically?  How many who have had experience with NPD think that the behavior is beyond the person's control?

 

I realize at the end of the day, the end result is the same.  However, if I truly thought that the NPD had no control over their actions, I would feel more sympathy for the person than I currently do.  Does that make sense to any of you?

Oh yes, I understand you completely.

 

The other thing is the issue of morality. My aunt with schizophrenia, when delusional, really can't figure out right from wrong. Not.at.all. She will often legitimately think that something that she is doing is right when it is in fact very, very wrong. Sometimes when she is made stable again, she is horrified by what she either remembers that she did or said, or is informed of what she did if she can't remember it, and I feel so bad for her because she is just heart broken. It is awful. Her own children feel a genuine compassion for her because it is so obviously not her fault, and when lucid, she would give anything to get control over it.

 

But with my dna donor, not only did he fully understand that what he did was wrong both criminally and morally, he simply didn't care. As far as he is concerned, he is an extra special snowflake for whom their should be no accountability. He felt no compassion for my mother, for her pain and suffering. If he had the opportunity to do it all over again, he'd happily do so. When faced with something like that, it is difficult to believe that he could not exercise physical control over himself. He remembers every second of those three days. Every second of what he did. Every second of what came next. And.he.still.thinks.he's.the.victim.

 

The worst thing is that he did it on my middle son's birthday. So now my son refuses to have his birthday acknowledged and is very offended when others do not respect him on this which is pretty much my entire extended family because since it didn't directly affect them, they don't "get it". My own ridiculous mother who was the direct victim of this whole nightmare doesn't get it. She had the nerve to call ds's cell phone on his birthday this year. He opted to not take the call. We've since changed the number, and she's mad because we won't tell her what it is.

 

Sigh.....

 

That's the other thing. NPD so incredibly skews the reality of those on the receiving end of the behavior that they are unable to recognize a boundary and respect it. She simply doesn't any longer possess the rationality and self control to follow a simple request. "Do not call ds on his birthday. Do not mention his birthday. He does not want the reminder of the anniversary of this event." Nope. She did it anyway. He has always been a narcissist. Always. We can see that now. It got monumentally worse in the five years leading up to it. That's when she began changing at such a rapid rate, when she started losing herself.

 

And yet I want to keep a relationship with her. I don't know what to do though. I envision a life for her when he is gone. Grandchildren, great grandchildren, traveling to see them, being involved in her hobbies, being in our lives. But if she is so radically damaged that she is incapable of observing boundaries, then I don't know if that can happen. Can an NPD person "create" another NPD person? 

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Oh yes, I understand you completely.

 

The other thing is the issue of morality. My aunt with schizophrenia, when delusional, really can't figure out right from wrong. Not.at.all. She will often legitimately think that something that she is doing is right when it is in fact very, very wrong. Sometimes when she is made stable again, she is horrified by what she either remembers that she did or said, or is informed of what she did if she can't remember it, and I feel so bad for her because she is just heart broken. It is awful. Her own children feel a genuine compassion for her because it is so obviously not her fault, and when lucid, she would give anything to get control over it.

 

 . Can an NPD person "create" another NPD person? 

 

this.  my mother was schizophrenic.  she responded well to rx in that they kept her from being totally out of it, but she wasn't capable of doing much of anything. 

 

I suspect my npd's golden-child (my brother)  is also npd, so yeah, I do think a npd can make a npd.(there are a host of reasons I think that.)  he was manipulating mom like crazy trying to get control of her money.  there''s a reason when she was mentally with-it she wanted dh to control them.  he *always* was looking out for *her* best interests!  I got a good reminder of how she was unmedicated when my brother had control of her for a few months (against my and my sister's wishes and advice)  and she was no longer taking them - she "lost her marbles". (I was still unaware she was off her meds.)  she was completely "out of it".  I got her back on her meds and stable - just in time for her to have some time to be stable and happy before she died.  the saddest thing is I was glad she was dead so my brother could not longer "get to her".  he had gotten a nurse to help him manipulate her - however, one of the drs saw it (he wasn't aware this dr realized what he was doing.) and it was in her hospital file.

 

I've another friend whose step-son (whom she raised and he considers her his mom) is severely schizophrenic.  this is completely out of his control. meds barely help him - until they don't.

eta: there are multiple reasons mom wanted dh doing her finances - that's his education/career as well as he wanted to protect her.  of all of her kids - I was the ONLY one she trusted. everything she did for my brother was to appease him thinking if she gave him what he wanted, he'd shut up and stop demanding things.  no mom, he'll just demand more.  I could always tell when he'd been working extra hard to separate us (so he could more easily control her) because the things she'd start saying sounded like my brother - not her.

 

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I stayed away from this and then stupidly came back. I feel sympathy for those who have suffered. I am sorry for your pain. I would just add that if someone wanted treatment, at least where I live, it involves a 3 week wait and then 2 hours in a waiting room with scary addicts. Mental health availability is only a couple steps up from leeches.

 

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Yes, the distorted morality and view of relationships is what makes NPD so difficult for those around them.

 

The person we're dealing with now has repeatedly told me that they know that what they're doing is wrong, but they have a right to do that because they are so misunderstood. There's also a disturbing religious aspect to it. They say things like, "I know God disapproves of this, but I'm doing what I want." The first time I heard that, I knew that we were on a downward slope. This is someone who comes from a missionary/preacher family and preached themselves for many years. So they've declared that they are accountable to no one. Lovely.

 

My NPD mother definitely created my NPD sibling. I've discussed this with my therapist. My NPD sibling isn't as hateful as my mother, but they basically look down upon everyone and have no use for close relationships. I got so tired of the lies and drama that we have only an email relationship, which works for me.

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Yes, the distorted morality and view of relationships is what makes NPD so difficult for those around them.

 

The person we're dealing with now has repeatedly told me that they know that what they're doing is wrong, but they have a right to do that because they are so misunderstood. There's also a disturbing religious aspect to it. They say things like, "I know God disapproves of this, but I'm doing what I want." The first time I heard that, I knew that we were on a downward slope. This is someone who comes from a missionary/preacher family and preached themselves for many years. So they've declared that they are accountable to no one. Lovely.

 

My NPD mother definitely created my NPD sibling. I've discussed this with my therapist. My NPD sibling isn't as hateful as my mother, but they basically look down upon everyone and have no use for close relationships. I got so tired of the lies and drama that we have only an email relationship, which works for me.

 

that sounds like a level of awareness not present in the npds with whom I have/do deal/t.    while the main npd in my life would freely tell us what God would do to us if we didn't treat her the way she wanted us to - she always indicated she thought God would be on her side.

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that sounds like a level of awareness not present in the npds with whom I have/do deal/t.    while the main npd in my life would freely tell us what God would do to us if we didn't treat her the way she wanted us to - she always indicated she thought God would be on her side.

 

Yes, lately they haven't been saying that though, so perhaps the guilt isn't a factor any more. They also don't show any spiritual interest either, although what goes on inside is of course up to speculation.

 

My therapist did say that some folks manifesting NPD start out with some guilt in the background but then become hardened to it to the point that they don't care any more. 

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Yes, lately they haven't been saying that though, so perhaps the guilt isn't a factor any more. They also don't show any spiritual interest either, although what goes on inside is of course up to speculation.

 

My therapist did say that some folks manifesting NPD start out with some guilt in the background but then become hardened to it to the point that they don't care any more. 

 

that I can believe, and why I'm of the opinion it *is* a choice.

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