How does NPD develop?

[Guest]

*hurting

[G5052]

I don't know if he is a sociopath or NPD. Whatever it is, the level of maliciousness is off the charts. I know I should feel compassion for him, but really all I have to work with is a matter of survival. There just isn't anything left.

 

This is what NPD does to offspring. I do not know if any other personality disorders have the same consequences. But whatever the current therapeutic approach is to NPD, I can say it is entirely ineffective at least for him despite the parade of psychiatrists, psychologists, therapists, and pharmaceuticals. There should be a lot more research devoted to this. I know so many people who are torn apart by NPD's. The wake of victims need some hope that future generations will have monumentally better tools in their belts for dealing with this. I suppose I should care about bettering the lives of the sufferers, but at this point I can't quite drum that up yet. Maybe when he is gone.....

 

No matter what, with a four for four family disaster paternally, my kids and I are taking mental health for ourselves very seriously. None of us are willing to put other people through this hell. I hope and pray the generational damage stops here.

 

In the end, those of us dealing with mental illness in others have to work out a balance of compassion and self-preservation. In some cases that means no-contact, in other, limited contact.

 

With the NPD person I'm dealing with, we're coping. Thankfully with their dementia, distraction or walking away with something we have to do works well. The flares are ugly, but we know how to handle them. The sad thing is that they making horrible choices regarding their health and become very ugly if anyone questions that. At this rate, the problem may resolve itself in a tragic way. I've chosen not to intervene at all on the health issues because it maintains peace and leaves them in control, as sad as that is.

 

With my mother, I had to go no-contact.

[Guest]

..

Edited February 6, 2017 by Heigh Ho

[Guest]

There is a neuroscientist who discovered he is a psychopath and commented a bit on his upbringing. I believe he has a TED talk and there is an article in Smithsonian magazine. Perhaps his insight on nature and nuture will be helpful.

[snowbeltmom]

I don't think it matters in terms of how people should respond. The potential harm is real either way, so taking protective measures (boundaries, including cutting off contact as necessary) is appropriate.

 

It matters in terms of how we view and develop treatments for the disorder.

Maybe our definitions of compassion differ and this is causing me to not completely understand your pov.  In my mind, cutting off contact is not being compassionate.  Do you think someone can cut-off contact and still be showing compassion? 

 

 

 

 

 

[amy g.]

Cutting off contact is ABSOLUTELY being compassionate.

[maize]

Maybe our definitions of compassion differ and this is causing me to not completely understand your pov. In my mind, cutting off contact is not being compassionate. Do you think someone can cut-off contact and still be showing compassion?

Yes.

 

Compassion to me is an attitude--one of seeing others as fellow humans and caring about their welfare. It is not a particular set of behaviors.

 

A person who feels compassion can mourn over the havoc a disorder causes in a person's life without feeling a need to sacrifice their own or their family's well-being on the altar of the disorder (something that does no good to anyone).

 

The difference is inside each of us. Will this lead to different behaviors? In some cases yes, in others no. From what I can learn of dealing with NPD, establishing and maintaining boundaries (including cutting off contact if needed) is the only healthy response so an attitude of compassion would not change that.

Edited February 5, 2017 by maize

[SparklyUnicorn]

Cutting off contact is ABSOLUTELY being compassionate.

 

It definitely can be.

[Guest]

Yes.

 

Compassion to me is an attitude--one of seeing others as fellow humans and caring about their welfare. It is not a particular set of behaviors.

 

t.

 

Then we've been talking past each other this whole time.

 

It sees like an overly broad definition, to be meaningful in any personal sense though. It's basically just not advocating for the the extermination of NPD folks.

 

Compassion without action is just a nebulous feeling locked inside your heart that makes (general) you feel good. And there is no actionable way to be compassionate to NPD people you have more than a professional relationship with, without losing something of yourself. So, IMO, no [what I've been calling] compassion for them is necessary. Plus you can't make someone feel what they don't.

[gardenmom5]

I appreciate people sharing their stories.

 

I've been thinking about something that relates to the question of choice in behavior for a person with a serious disorder such as NPD. When you consider such a person's worst, most harmful behaviors, could you imagine yourself engaging in those behaviors--just choosing to treat the people around you as they do, not in a moment of anger and frustration but in a calculated, habitual manner?

 

I don't think that I could. I literally do not believe that my brain is capable of making such a choice because to do so would cause :me: too much distress; I can't just choose to turn off empathy for other people and to not be hurt when they are hurt. I don't think that anyone with a normally functioning, undamaged brain can do that. If I would be incapable of choosing to act as an NPD person acts, how could I assume that for them the behavior is just a choice?

 

 

there are many things people do every. single. day.  and are considered just peachy fine - that I would never be able to imagine myself engaging in because I consider them wrong/unhealthy - so this is not a legitimate question.   obviously - there are many things with which many of us would never do - that others *without* any mental "impairment" would think nothing of doing.

[SparklyUnicorn]

there are many things people do every. single. day.  and are considered just peachy fine - that I would never be able to imagine myself engaging in because I consider them wrong/unhealthy - so this is not a legitimate question.   obviously - there are many things with which many of us would never do - that others *without* any mental "impairment" would think nothing of doing.

 

so true

[gardenmom5]

Then we've been talking past each other this whole time.

 

It sees like an overly broad definition, to be meaningful in any personal sense though. It's basically just not advocating for the the extermination of NPD folks.

 

Compassion without action is just a nebulous feeling locked inside your heart that makes (general) you feel good. And there is no actionable way to be compassionate to NPD people you have more than a professional relationship with, without losing something of yourself. So, IMO, no [what I've been calling] compassion for them is necessary. Plus you can't make someone feel what they don't.

 

I'd like to refine that a bit.  compassion without *benefit to the subject* of the action is just a nebulous feeling locked in your heart that makes 3rd party you feel good.

 

I'd watch my npd person (as well as my mother who was not npd, though she was diagnosed mentally ill and under care of a psychiatrist) claim to have so much compassion for her victim. . . . uh . . everything done to "help" her, was actually enabling and keeping her down so she could continue to be rescued.  but it "made her feel good" and npd would proclaim how wonderful and generous she was.

I told my mother repeatedly her behavior was enabling NOT helping - after 25 years she admitted I was right as she finally saw "it".  I about fell off my chair.

 

this is something that makes me nuts.  I don't know if the woman I was assigned (as one of many) to help was "just" majorly dysfunctional, or a lessor personality disorder (certainly not npd), some things she was aware of were messed up - but she didn't want to change them because she "they were working for her" and she didn't want to give up the power she got from them.

it drove me nuts to watch others who were helping and their "oh, poor ___ " and enable her in the name of compassion ('cause they were sucked in and didn't know what they were dealing with.  their "compassion" was actually making things worse.  then they'd burn out and walk away.)   I knew a lot less than I do today - but because of my npd I had a far better idea of what was going on and put limits on what I would tolerate or do and expectations (which were reachable - as I said, she was aware) of what she needed to do.

[amy g.]

Imagine an over tired toddler who is raging and cutting up his bedspread and using a chair to break his bedroom window.

 

It is compassionate and loving to physically restrain him while calmly repeating, "I can tell that you are very angry, but in this family we don't destroy our home."

 

It would not be compassionate to rage back calling him a brat and telling him how happy your life would have been if he had never been born.

 

It is also not compassionate or loving to let him potentially hurt himself and others by not putting an end to the destructive behaviors.

 

You can have understanding that he missed his nap or that there are underlying reasons that are beyond his control and STILL not let him destroy everything around him.

Edited February 5, 2017 by amy g.

[SparklyUnicorn]

In terms of having compassion for a close person, or not...I think it could also depend on the relationship you have with that person.  If you are the parent of the NPD that's not the same as being the spouse...and not the same as being the child of the parent...Those factors are going to put a very different spin on things I think.

 

 

Edited February 5, 2017 by SparklyUnicorn

[SparklyUnicorn]

Imagine an over tired toddler who is raging and cutting up his bedspread and using a chair to break his bedroom window.

 

It is compassionate and loving to physically restrain him while calmly repeating, "I can tell that you are very angry, but in this family we don't destroy our home."

 

It would not be compassionate to rage back calling him a brat and telling him how happy your life would have been if he had never been born.

 

It is also not compassionate or loving to let him potentially hurt himself and others be not putting an end to the destructive behaviors.

 

You can have understanding that he missed his nap or that there are underlying reasons that are beyond his control and STILL not let him destroy everything around him.

 

yes, but then to be fair, if a parent reacted like that out of frustration and despair it is understandable

 

My own parents who suffered with a severe mental illness for most of their life (including as a child) weren't always the most compassionate and understating when it came to my sister.  You would think so...but no.  Because it is difficult to deal with.  Plus where does a person get REAL support with dealing with that?  Nowhere.  Nobody gives you suggestions for living with a person like that (which repeats how dismal the state of mental health care is). 

[snowbeltmom]

Cutting off contact is ABSOLUTELY being compassionate.

See, this is what I grapple with.  I finally had enough and cut off contact a few years ago.  I guess I am still coming to terms with the thought that if the person truly can't help their behavior, which I am not convinced is the case, then maybe it is not compassionate to them to cut off contact over something that they can't help. Does that make sense?  Now, on the flip side, it would not be compassionate to me or my kids and H to keep this person in their lives. 

[gardenmom5]

See, this is what I grapple with.  I finally had enough and cut off contact a few years ago.  I guess I am still coming to terms with the thought that if the person truly can't help their behavior, which I am not convinced is the case, then maybe it is not compassionate to them to cut off contact over something that they can't help. Does that make sense?  Now, on the flip side, it would not be compassionate to me or my kids and H to keep this person in their lives. 

 

not allowing them to abuse you is compassionate.

[SparklyUnicorn]

See, this is what I grapple with.  I finally had enough and cut off contact a few years ago.  I guess I am still coming to terms with the thought that if the person truly can't help their behavior, which I am not convinced is the case, then maybe it is not compassionate to them to cut off contact over something that they can't help. Does that make sense?  Now, on the flip side, it would not be compassionate to me or my kids and H to keep this person in their lives. 

 

I cut off contact with a person who I know 100% cannot help it.  I grapple with it as well.  HOWEVER, it was what I had to do to stay sane myself.  You live with that long enough you sometimes just have to.  It's one thing to devote your life to being a therapist listening to people and helping people and another to live with someone like that. 

 

And actually the biggest reason I cut them out was that the person did lousy things to my kids and involving my kids.  That was the final straw.  I felt I had to protect them.

[SparklyUnicorn]

Well and back to the "depends on who this person is" this was not my child.  And not my parent. 

 

Do I feel I owe my child more?  Yes.  My parent?  Not so much.  My sibling?  Not at all.

 

 

[amy g.]

Ok. Let me put it this way. Think about the golden rule and treating others as you would want to be treated.

 

I think we may be having different visions of what compassion looks like because how you would want to be treated is different from how I would want to be treated.

 

Since I know that these disorders have a genetic component, I have told my kids that if I ever, due to a brain tumor or Alzheimer's or anything, become a destructive force on their marriages or their children, PLEASE put me in a cheap, state run home where I will get pneumonia and do not allow me to cause conflict or hurt the family.

 

I would WANT my kids to limit/cut off contact with me if that is going to be better for the long term health of my family.

 

I mentioned earlier that I see this as no less compassionate than not letting a drunk person drive. Sure they are mad at the time, but can you imagine what the rest of their life would be like if they crash and injure or kill someone?

 

It is much more loving to spare them that consequence by taking away the keys.

 

This is where I think choice doesn't matter.

 

My dad once had a diabetic episode where he couldn't remember how to count or how to open a car door. He wasn't choosing it. Still, I would not allow him to drive or do anything that could harm himself or others. When he recovered, he was very grateful that I had taken those steps.

 

So this is why I believe that breaking the cycle, even if it means cutting off contact is the most loving thing to do.

 

You are sparing them from waking up one day and discovering that they have burned everyone close to them.

[OneStepAtATime]

Cutting off contact means that they no longer have access to a person/family to cause additional damage.  It is compassionate in the sense that you recognize they cannot (or possibly will not) change and you maintaining contact only continues and possibly reinforces the destructive behaviors.  Cutting contact prevents the access that continues the destructive behaviors towards you/your family.  It at least breaks the destructive pattern for interaction with that particular person/family.  Does that actually change anything within them?  Probably not, but maybe it does in some small fashion.  Certainly allowing the destructive pattern to continue over and over and over is probably NOT very helpful or compassionate, for them or for you.  Unfortunately, NPD people get really good at manipulating the feelings of others and prey on that compassion so that they CAN keep repeating the destructive pattern.  Sort of like a drug addict getting their fix.  Would it be compassionate to keep giving a drug addict drugs so they can get their badly wanted fix?

 

And I can absolutely feel compassion for people I have cut contact with, and wish them hope for a better, more functional life (just without me in it).

 

Whether that is productive or not in a specific sense, well, I guess it depends on the circumstances.  I think it CAN be.  One can cut contact with a specific person while still recognizing their mental health issues and advocating for change in how mental health care and understanding work.  One can donate time/money to mental health studies or advocate to others who are in a position to study mental health issues.  One can open up dialogues with others regarding mental health issues instead of keeping these issues hidden, closeted.  And someone can do those things while still acknowledging that the individual NPD person they knew is toxic to them and should be avoided completely or at least contact limited severely and boundaries established and relentlessly enforced.

 

ETA: I absolutely recognize that sometimes the damage is so great, the long lasting destructive mental health effects on others are so powerful, that feeling even apathy is an effort, much less feeling true compassion.   :grouphug:

Edited February 5, 2017 by OneStepAtATime

[snowbeltmom]

These comments defining compassion have been very helpful.  Thank you.

[maize]

I don't see how continuing contact when every contact with a person causes harm to those they interact with could be compassionate. I see no compassion at all in enabling a person to hurt others.

 

If contact were healing in some manner to the person with the disorder, or even if contact were necessary to keep a disorder from worsening, the situation would be more complicated. At this point I am not aware of that being generally true in the case of NPD.

 

In any case children in particular need to be protected, I will always prioritize children over adults as more vulnerable in any relationship. If a choice has to be made between the good of the child and the good of an adult the child wins. (Some complex situations leave no good options at all; in that case I think you just have to make the best decision you can and accept that the outcome will be imperfect.)

[SparklyUnicorn]

I don't see how continuing contact when every contact with a person causes harm to those they interact with could be compassionate. I see no compassion at all in enabling a person to hurt others.

I don't quite follow.

[maize]

I don't quite follow.

Do you think you would be helped in some way by a person facilitating behavior in you that harms that person?

 

I don't think that hurting other people brings anyone happiness. Satisfaction of a sadistic urge of some kind perhaps, but not actual happiness or any other real good.

 

I don't think every relationship with an NPD person requires cutting off contact, that really depends on the specifics of the situation. I hope it isn't a necessity in the majority of such relationships. In some cases it isn't even possible. But if every interaction/nearly every interaction is causing pain and harm to the other person, yes I believe that cutting contact entirely can be the most compassionate course as well as the healthiest.

Edited February 5, 2017 by maize

[Anne in CA]

In my case the harmful person in my child's life imparted some of their dangerous ideas to my oldest child who then made trouble in my family. I lived with a child who was extremely manipulative for many years. It was easy to be compassionate when she was small, she was clearly imitating things she had seen. When she was older her birth mother tried to cause trouble using her as a tool and it was easy to be compassionate because what she was doing wasn't her own idea. Dh and I called her on her stuff over and over again but told her we loved her, showed her we loved her, set her up for success as much as we could. At nineteen when her post high school plans didn't go the way she wanted (due to manipulating other people who were not tolerant) we did not allow her to move back in with us. It was her younger siblings turn to be parented and she used up all our attention. 

 

When she was 25  we did let her live with us for two months and she did her best to turn her siblings against each other and turn them against dh and I. We made it plain she would never live with us again. It has taken three years to overcome some of the damage she did to our youngest. I don't believe that she has mental illness, I believe that she was exposed to too much manipulation as a child. Her boyfriend at the time broke up with her because of some manipulative stunts she pulled pitting him against her friends. She has actually made huge personal strides in the last two years that I didn't ever think she could make. She began eating healthy and working out, she has become a more responsible employee, she works on her art daily, she is really making changes. At twenty-eight this may seem late, but better late than never.

[SparklyUnicorn]

Do you think you would be helped in some way by a person facilitating behavior in you that harms that person?

 

I don't think that hurting other people brings anyone happiness. Satisfaction of a sadistic urge of some kind perhaps, but not actual happiness or any other real good.

 

I don't think every relationship with an NPD person requires cutting off contact, that really depends on the specifics of the situation. I hope it isn't a necessity in the majority of such relationships. In some cases it isn't even possible. But if every interaction/nearly every interaction is causing pain and harm to the other person, yes I believe that cutting contact entirely can be the most compassionate course as well as the healthiest.

 

Whew, still not following.

 

I agree it's not always possible or necessary to cut off contact.  I don't know that anyone is saying it's a must.  I think they are saying sometimes that is a reasonable and understandable thing to do. 

 

But, again, there isn't much real help for people dealing with this.  Not the person who has it and not the person who lives with someone who has it. Nobody gave me anything useful in terms of coping with my family members.  Not one damn thing. 

[Guest]

If compassionate action means __whatever you gotta do__ then everything is compassion at all times because everyone is always doing what they feel like they need to do.

 

I dunno you guys, words have predetermined meaning. If you're using an alternative definition that really needs to be said.

 

I asked pages ago what compassionate act you can do for an NPD and now all this time later the answer is evidently "anything you need to do including cutting off contact, but it's not kosher to say you don't feel compassion for them, regardless of what they've done and what you've decided to do as a result, because maybe they can't help it. So just *say* you've compassion and we are all copacetic!"

 

This feels like a very patontheback answer, wrought from an aversion to unpleasantness. But of course, any significant run-in with an NPD and it's out of our hands: unpleasantness is the dish of the day. Pairs well with any available wine.

[maize]

Whew, still not following.

 

I agree it's not always possible or necessary to cut off contact. I don't know that anyone is saying it's a must. I think they are saying sometimes that is a reasonable and understandable thing to do.

 

But, again, there isn't much real help for people dealing with this. Not the person who has it and not the person who lives with someone who has it. Nobody gave me anything useful in terms of coping with my family members. Not one damn thing.

I think we're making progress...slowly, and with lots of false starts and false trails...in dealing with various sorts of mental illness. When my sister was dealing with BPD both she and my parents did receive real, helpful therapy and support. Not every program or therapist or doctor was helpful--some were downright harmful! But eventually they were able to find people and therapies and support that were helpful--and that have proven helpful for many others. I'm optimistic that there is hope ahead many of the issues that are currently intractable.

 

My plea for compassion in our attitudes and especially in our public dialog comes partly from a belief that such an attitude is necessary to move us past the stigma that is a huge barrier to progress in the mental health field. I think that real progress--and the development of real, effective supports and help--are dependent on breaking down associated stigmas. We need to be looking at causes and behavior and addressing those directly.

Edited February 5, 2017 by maize

[SparklyUnicorn]

If compassionate action means __whatever you gotta do__ then everything is compassion at all times because everyone is always doing what they feel like they need to do.

 

I dunno you guys, words have predetermined meaning. If you're using an alternative definition that really needs to be said.

 

I asked pages ago what compassionate act you can do for an NPD and now all this time later the answer is evidently "anything you need to do including cutting off contact, but it's not kosher to say you don't feel compassion for them, regardless of what they've done and what you've decided to do as a result, because maybe they can't help it. So just *say* you've compassion and we are all copacetic!"

 

This feels like a very patontheback answer, wrought from an aversion to unpleasantness. But of course, any significant run-in with an NPD and it's out of our hands: unpleasantness is the dish of the day. Pairs well with any available wine.

 

If distancing yourself prevents you from lashing out and killing the person then yeah it's compassionate to get away.  Might be an extreme example, but that's where I assumed people were going with that. 

 

Some mentioned that the NPD in their life had a golden child.  Could it be that it's not the person is actually golden, but that person for whatever reason doesn't cause the NPD person to lash out with their destructive behaviors?  And maybe those who they do lash out at are the sorts of people that for whatever reason enable them?  Not on purpose...just...they do. 

 

But really if someone comes to me and says my mother treats me like crap no matter what I do (my adult mother) my first thought is...stop talking to your mother.  Seems like a logical thing to do.  Even if the mother can't help it. 

 

I have told my kids that they should not live their life in the way I want them to.  They should live their life in the way they want to.  Even if that involves doing stuff I find highly objectionable.  This may sound nutters, but I have my specific reasons for saying it. 

 

I guess I see life as too short to keep people in your life that only cause you grief.  We can't always control that, but if we can?  Isn't it kinda nutters to keep sticking your hand in the flame?!  If you don't want to distance yourself and feel compelled to find a way to accept the person the way they are which will likely only mean you found a way to grow a very thick skin, then by all means.  Do it. 

[SparklyUnicorn]

I think we're making progress...slowly, and with lots of false starts and false trails...in dealing with various sorts of mental illness. When my sister was dealing with BPD both she and my parents did receive real, helpful therapy and support. Not every program or therapist or doctor was helpful--some were downright harmful! But eventually they were able to find people and therapies and support that were helpful--and that have proven helpful for many others. I'm optimistic that there is hope ahead many of the issues that are currently intractable.

 

My plea for compassion in our attitudes and especially in our public dialog comes partly from a belief that such an attitude is necessary to move us past the stigma that is a huge barrier to progress in the mental health field. I think that real progress--and the development of real, effective supports and help--are dependent on breaking down associated stigmas. We need to be looking at causes and behavior and addressing those directly.

 

Glad to hear you had a good experience.  I'm still waiting for mine.

 

I do like talking about it because it needs to be talked about.  I have 100% compassion when entertaining the idea.  Living with it is a hell of a lot more difficult. 

[maize]

If compassionate action means __whatever you gotta do__ then everything is compassion at all times because everyone is always doing what they feel like they need to do.

 

I dunno you guys, words have predetermined meaning. If you're using an alternative definition that really needs to be said.

 

I asked pages ago what compassionate act you can do for an NPD and now all this time later the answer is evidently "anything you need to do including cutting off contact, but it's not kosher to say you don't feel compassion for them, regardless of what they've done and what you've decided to do as a result, because maybe they can't help it. So just *say* you've compassion and we are all copacetic!"

 

This feels like a very patontheback answer, wrought from an aversion to unpleasantness. But of course, any significant run-in with an NPD and it's out of our hands: unpleasantness is the dish of the day. Pairs well with any available wine.

It is not about words.

 

It is about what is actually in your heart, about seeing others as human, not as some amorphous evil other.

 

Will they know the difference? I don't know. Most of us do know when someone in our lives is viewing us as a human rather than a thing. Whether it matters or not to them, though, it will matter to us.

[Guest]

It is not about words.

 

It is about what is actually in your heart, about seeing others as human, not as some amorphous evil other.

 

Will they know the difference? I don't know. Most of us do know when someone in our lives is viewing us as a human rather than a thing. Whether it matters or not to them, though, it will matter to us.

Again you can't tell someone they need something"in their heart," and expect them to wriggle their nose and conjur it into their heart.

 

Some people really don't need or want that ideological expectation (and it is, in the end, nothing other than a stance...A psuedo spiritual opinion) thrust on them, to parry with in ADDITION to whatever unpleasantness lead them to their original stance.

[maize]

Again you can't tell someone they need something"in their heart," and expect them to wriggle their nose and conjur it into their heart.

 

Some people really don't need or want that ideological expectation (and it is, in the end, nothing other than a stance...A psuedo spiritual opinion) thrust on them, to parry with in ADDITION to whatever unpleasantness lead them to their original stance.

Ah well, it does not sound like we are going to be able to agree on this.

[Guest]

Plus, I asked what one can do. Not how one ought to feel, for the benefit of whoever has wreaked havoc in their life.

 

And the answer is "whatever you gotta do." Right? .... On this I think literally everyone is in agreement.

[Guest]

Ah well, it does not sound like we are going to be able to agree on this.

Do you think you can make someone feel some kind of way just by telling them they should?

[SparklyUnicorn]

Plus, I asked what one can do. Not how one ought to feel, for the benefit of whoever has wreaked havoc in their life.

 

And the answer is "whatever you gotta do." Right? .... On this I think literally everyone is in agreement.

 

Absolutely.  And I can't imagine a therapist saying you should grin and bear it.  If you can't get away then yeah you have to try something else, but otherwise....

 

And this is no different in my mind than someone who puts their child or adult child in a home for having a severe disability (of any kind).  Some parents choose to cope and take care of them as long as possible.  Some don't because they just can't.  Doesn't make the parent uncaring. 

 

Interestingly the NPD person I knew growing up really didn't get on my nerves the same way she got on my mother's nerves.  Other than hearing what my mother said about her, I didn't see those behaviors myself.  She was very different towards me OR her behaviors didn't bother me.  They bothered my mother a great deal.  My mother kept trying to get her' mother's approval and no amount of telling my mother that she'd never get it would help my mother stop trying.  I didn't give a rat's butt about getting approval. 

[SparklyUnicorn]

Do you think you can make someone feel some kind of way just by telling them they should?

 

Well it could be that you both have different levels of tolerance for this AND/OR the person you are dealing with is harder to deal with than the person maize is dealing with.  Anyone who wants to tell me I'm not compassionate enough can spend a day in that hell with my brain and tell me how they feel afterwards.

[SparklyUnicorn]

Actually the last therapist I went to was very big on cutting out toxic people in one's life if that was possible.  I mentioned my MIL and she was pretty  much "oh hells no" about visiting her.  I felt differently because I figured I didn't have to see her that often and I wanted to be supportive towards my husband.  She still didn't agree with me. 

 

 

[maize]

Do you think you can make someone feel some kind of way just by telling them they should?

Of course not.

 

I do think that we as indivuals have some power to direct our thoughts and attitudes. There are things that can limit that ability, including trauma.

 

ETA also, I'm still thinking more in generalities and not trying to tell any particular person they need to do x or y. I have opinions and ideas but zero desire to try to direct someone else. I invite any person who finds my ideas unhelpful or just wrong to ignore them.

Edited February 5, 2017 by maize

[SparklyUnicorn]

But anyway this is the best and lowest cost therapy I've ever had.  So thank you all for that.  :laugh:

[swellmomma]

yes, but then to be fair, if a parent reacted like that out of frustration and despair it is understandable

 

My own parents who suffered with a severe mental illness for most of their life (including as a child) weren't always the most compassionate and understating when it came to my sister.  You would think so...but no.  Because it is difficult to deal with.  Plus where does a person get REAL support with dealing with that?  Nowhere.  Nobody gives you suggestions for living with a person like that (which repeats how dismal the state of mental health care is). 

 

Very true. And they may have been the calm, compassionate one but day after day year after year having to deal with the same crap, and no help and no support. ANd beyond no help and no support, being blamed for the behaviours and told they need to suck it up because they are the parent and no child could possibly be behaving the way they say, after all said child is perfectly behaved sitting in the office for a 30 minute appt.  The parent gets to a point where they have nothing left to give, no avenues to turn and that level of compassion is no longer there all the time.  It slips, the anger shows itself. And then they feel guilty and continue to battle their inner dialogue while the child continues to wreak havoc in the family, and the parents start to have their own mental health issues.  And one day some dr finally listens, and low and behold they claim familial history of mental illness caused the child to be this way, yet it was the child who created the mental illness in the parents and other siblings and the list goes on.

 

When it comes to raising a child with a PD of any kind, you are damned if you do and damned if you don't.  No matter what the parents are blamed for causing it, they have no access to any support system and they are told they have to remain calm, and compassionate, and whatnot no matter what.  In any other relationship if the person has a PD they would be counselled to cut off contact, with a parent raising a PD child it can feel like they are a prisoner in their own home.  They have no avenue of escape and even if they choose to cut contact to protect themselves when the child is grown they are seen as monsters.

[FaithManor]

Ok. Let me put it this way. Think about the golden rule and treating others as you would want to be treated.

 

I think we may be having different visions of what compassion looks like because how you would want to be treated is different from how I would want to be treated.

 

Since I know that these disorders have a genetic component, I have told my kids that if I ever, due to a brain tumor or Alzheimer's or anything, become a destructive force on their marriages or their children, PLEASE put me in a cheap, state run home where I will get pneumonia and do not allow me to cause conflict or hurt the family.

 

I would WANT my kids to limit/cut off contact with me if that is going to be better for the long term health of my family.

 

I mentioned earlier that I see this as no less compassionate than not letting a drunk person drive. Sure they are mad at the time, but can you imagine what the rest of their life would be like if they crash and injure or kill someone?

 

It is much more loving to spare them that consequence by taking away the keys.

 

This is where I think choice doesn't matter.

 

My dad once had a diabetic episode where he couldn't remember how to count or how to open a car door. He wasn't choosing it. Still, I would not allow him to drive or do anything that could harm himself or others. When he recovered, he was very grateful that I had taken those steps.

 

So this is why I believe that breaking the cycle, even if it means cutting off contact is the most loving thing to do.

 

You are sparing them from waking up one day and discovering that they have burned everyone close to them.

But this analogy does not apply because NPD by nature does not feel enough empathy or connection to others to even come to a place of recognizing that any of the consequences of their actions caused pain or that they burned a bridge. There will NEVER be an epiphany. There is NO acknowledgement of responsibility, not enough care about other humans to consider they ever did anything remotely wrong. Everything is always everyone else's fault. Always. Totally always.

 

So in the case of my dna donor there is a litany of people and circumastances that "caused" him to try to murder my mother, and he is the innocent victim. Innocent. He is the victim. Not her. And she owes it to him to take care of him through all of this because he is such a prince and such a victim. Poor poor him.

 

The golden rule does not apply because it implies both parties are pretty much the same species and have a common frame of reference. We don't have that. He honestly thinks I should enjoy the abuse, and metaphorically I have turned the other cheek so many times there isn't any cheek left to hit.

 

I have often wondered if NPD is the grown up version Reactive Attachment Disorder. I used to do respite care for foster parents with RAD kids in their homes. There are some similarities. While likely most NPD's may not resort to the violence that many RAD kids exhibit, maybe the reason for that is some learned self control in adulthood.

 

Someone should study it. If NPD affects 6.5% of the population, then finding them while in childhood is really important. If it is related to RAD, then maybe experts working on both ends of the problem can find a treatment that limits the carnage.

[OneStepAtATime]

But this analogy does not apply because NPD by nature does not feel enough empathy or connection to others to even come to a place of recognizing that any of the consequences of their actions caused pain or that they burned a bridge. There will NEVER be an epiphany. There is NO acknowledgement of responsibility, not enough care about other humans to consider they ever did anything remotely wrong. Everything is always everyone else's fault. Always. Totally always.

 

So in the case of my dna donor there is a litany of people and circumastances that "caused" him to try to murder my mother, and he is the innocent victim. Innocent. He is the victim. Not her. And she owes it to him to take care of him through all of this because he is such a prince and such a victim. Poor poor him.

 

The golden rule does not apply because it implies both parties are pretty much the same species and have a common frame of reference. We don't have that. He honestly thinks I should enjoy the abuse, and metaphorically I have turned the other cheek so many times there isn't any cheek left to hit.

 

I have often wondered if NPD is the grown up version Reactive Attachment Disorder. I used to do respite care for foster parents with RAD kids in their homes. There are some similarities. While likely most NPD's may not resort to the violence that many RAD kids exhibit, maybe the reason for that is some learned self control in adulthood.

 

Someone should study it. If NPD affects 6.5% of the population, then finding them while in childhood is really important. If it is related to RAD, then maybe experts working on both ends of the problem can find a treatment that limits the carnage.

I agree, long term studies might help with a better understanding.  Opening up a dialogue also can help to encourage long term studies and questioning the why, not just focusing on the damage.

 

And FaithManor I am so sorry for what you and your family have gone through.

 

Maize I do think a dialogue on this is helpful, even if triggering for many.  I am glad you started this thread.  

[Janeway]

But this analogy does not apply because NPD by nature does not feel enough empathy or connection to others to even come to a place of recognizing that any of the consequences of their actions caused pain or that they burned a bridge. There will NEVER be an epiphany. There is NO acknowledgement of responsibility, not enough care about other humans to consider they ever did anything remotely wrong. Everything is always everyone else's fault. Always. Totally always.

 

So in the case of my dna donor there is a litany of people and circumastances that "caused" him to try to murder my mother, and he is the innocent victim. Innocent. He is the victim. Not her. And she owes it to him to take care of him through all of this because he is such a prince and such a victim. Poor poor him.

 

The golden rule does not apply because it implies both parties are pretty much the same species and have a common frame of reference. We don't have that. He honestly thinks I should enjoy the abuse, and metaphorically I have turned the other cheek so many times there isn't any cheek left to hit.

 

I have often wondered if NPD is the grown up version Reactive Attachment Disorder. I used to do respite care for foster parents with RAD kids in their homes. There are some similarities. While likely most NPD's may not resort to the violence that many RAD kids exhibit, maybe the reason for that is some learned self control in adulthood.

 

Someone should study it. If NPD affects 6.5% of the population, then finding them while in childhood is really important. If it is related to RAD, then maybe experts working on both ends of the problem can find a treatment that limits the carnage.

I would like to see way more research done.

 

As far as I can tell, and this is by no means the final answer, just bits and pieces of information I have put together through the years, Schizophrenia might call for genes A B C D E F G H, and then ASD might call for genes A B C G I J K L (of course, there are many types of ASD, so to keep this simple, I am only listing this as one example) and then Bipolar disorder might take genes C G I J K M N O and then NPD might take genes A C D E P Q R..etc etc etc. And I am sure with NPD, it is a spectrum. Bipolar is already considered a spectrum as is Schizophrenia and ASD. 

 

Also, another thing, I read a long time ago, there are two types of psychopathy...and one is considered to have a genetic cause (almost purely genetic, could not have prevented it) and the other is considered to have an abuse cause (almost purely abuse, could have prevented it). I am betting there is an entire spectrum going in between those extremes. I am sure that even the one with the abuse cause would have to have a genetic background because many people survive abuse and do not go on to abuse. And of course, many people who abuse were never abused.

[OneStepAtATime]

Very true. And they may have been the calm, compassionate one but day after day year after year having to deal with the same crap, and no help and no support. ANd beyond no help and no support, being blamed for the behaviours and told they need to suck it up because they are the parent and no child could possibly be behaving the way they say, after all said child is perfectly behaved sitting in the office for a 30 minute appt.  The parent gets to a point where they have nothing left to give, no avenues to turn and that level of compassion is no longer there all the time.  It slips, the anger shows itself. And then they feel guilty and continue to battle their inner dialogue while the child continues to wreak havoc in the family, and the parents start to have their own mental health issues.  And one day some dr finally listens, and low and behold they claim familial history of mental illness caused the child to be this way, yet it was the child who created the mental illness in the parents and other siblings and the list goes on.

 

When it comes to raising a child with a PD of any kind, you are damned if you do and damned if you don't.  No matter what the parents are blamed for causing it, they have no access to any support system and they are told they have to remain calm, and compassionate, and whatnot no matter what.  In any other relationship if the person has a PD they would be counselled to cut off contact, with a parent raising a PD child it can feel like they are a prisoner in their own home.  They have no avenue of escape and even if they choose to cut contact to protect themselves when the child is grown they are seen as monsters.

:grouphug:  :grouphug:  :grouphug:

[SparklyUnicorn]

I would like to see way more research done.

 

As far as I can tell, and this is by no means the final answer, just bits and pieces of information I have put together through the years, Schizophrenia might call for genes A B C D E F G H, and then ASD might call for genes A B C G I J K L (of course, there are many types of ASD, so to keep this simple, I am only listing this as one example) and then Bipolar disorder might take genes C G I J K M N O and then NPD might take genes A C D E P Q R..etc etc etc. And I am sure with NPD, it is a spectrum. Bipolar is already considered a spectrum as is Schizophrenia and ASD. 

 

Also, another thing, I read a long time ago, there are two types of psychopathy...and one is considered to have a genetic cause (almost purely genetic, could not have prevented it) and the other is considered to have an abuse cause (almost purely abuse, could have prevented it). I am betting there is an entire spectrum going in between those extremes. I am sure that even the one with the abuse cause would have to have a genetic background because many people survive abuse and do not go on to abuse. And of course, many people who abuse were never abused.

 

Definitely.  And I see it a lot where someone kinda wonders well, I put up with my family member who has this.  I accept them.  But who is to say the two are even comparable.  I've read about schizophrenics who managed to earn PhDs.  Then there are schizophrenics who are in prison or on the street who absolutely cannot function on any sort of "normal" level. 

 

And I always wonder what is the disorder and what is the person just being like everyone else where they could have been done better in a certain situation, but chose not to (and could easily blame their illness).  Even the person I cut out of my life.  I do think part of it is we just have personalities that clash.  I do not chalk it up entirely to her illness and my choice to reject dealing with it.  Growing up we weren't super close either.

[G5052]

But this analogy does not apply because NPD by nature does not feel enough empathy or connection to others to even come to a place of recognizing that any of the consequences of their actions caused pain or that they burned a bridge. There will NEVER be an epiphany. There is NO acknowledgement of responsibility, not enough care about other humans to consider they ever did anything remotely wrong. Everything is always everyone else's fault. Always. Totally always.

 

Yes, dealing with someone with NPD is perpetually crazy-making. They do NOT think like most people and will anything to remain "on top."

 

I'm living it every day, and I have to remind myself constantly that I cannot fix it, and that the reality is that they care zero about those around them unless it fits their purposes.

 

I wasn't there, but there was a scene at a surgeon's office on Monday that escalated to a shouting match. I heard all about it from the individual with NPD (thankfully I had to go to work, so not long), and then the office called me to tell me as the emergency contact that a certified letter would be coming to record that they are being dropped from the practice unless a psychiatric evaluation clears the individual with NPD. The doctor's office said that they almost had to call the police, it was so bad. From all I know, the doctor was completely professional. Thankfully I was gone most of the day after the letter arrived and didn't hear about it until many hours later. I briefly sympathized and found something else I had to do.

 

This week isn't going to be any better for me that way. There's a worse crisis on the horizon.

Edited February 5, 2017 by G5052

[maize]

It's kinda about words.

 

Here's what I think is compassionate. Use words that accurately reflect what we know about personality disorders and be aware of adding to stigma, which most DEFINITELY affects things like research and treatment.

 

1. Don't lump everything in all together. Understand that your NPD is not your BPD is not you APD etc.

 

2. Don't repeat things that are false eg there is no treatment for BPD

 

3. Don't insist on the person with a personality disorder is just 'choosing' to be 'an asshole' if you don't have research to back up that, yes, indeed, psychiatry now understands personality disorders to be just about choosing to be an asshole.

 

4. If your ability to discuss in a way that doesn't add to stigma is profoundly compromised by your own trauma due to a relationship with someone with a personality disorder, be clear about that.

 

5. Be aware that stigma infuences both research and treatment; it's in all our best interests to destigmatize these disorders - a person with NPD when we know little and offer less is more dangerous than the person in the future when we know more and can do more.

 

6. Use language like 'this person with NPD' and not 'my BPD'. People are more than their psychiatric diagnosis. We don't normally call our depressed spouse 'my depressive' for example.

 

Now, you can do all these things and more whilst having ZERO personal contact with a person with a personality disorder. Or, indeed, feeling anything positive for that person.

 

That's how I view compassion.

This is a very good post, thank you.

 

When I said "it's not about words" I was trying to communicate that compassion is a real and significant thing, even if it doesn't show as actions that appear compassionate towards a particular individual. It seemed to me that PP was arguing that such compassion was "just words" and therefor not real or meaningful.

 

I agree that the kind of ways of using words you talk about in this post would be a natural result of the kind of internal attitude of compassion I have been trying to communicate about.

[LMD]

I do absolutely feel compassion in my heart for the npd person in my life. It would be impossible not to, I was programmed very early to be her emotional support.

 

I feel compassion that leads to action in ways like - I don't respond in kind, I don't give her new victims, I don't slander her to other people.

 

Also, I didn't actually cut her off, she cut me off during a tantrum (again) and I'm holding her to it until she apologises. She knows this, and in 4 years all I've gotten is more emotional manipulation (using my sister's cancer and my child's birth) and one haughty 'am I ready to call a truce?'

Edited February 5, 2017 by LMD