How does NPD develop?

[SparklyUnicorn]

We know NPD is real because everyone ELSE suffers. Is anyone questioning the validity of NPD??? No. We are saying that people with NPD are bad mamba jambas, full-top. And you can feel sorry fr them or not. I don't really see what that changes, unless one thinks one is going to be THE person to stumble on a cure for NPD.

 

I don't think anyone is disagreeing.

 

I guess I'm wondering what people mean when they say something is not based on chemistry.  Then what else is it based on?  There is nothing else that I know of.

[eternalsummer]

I think it's a lot easier to have compassion for the general class of sufferers of personality disorders than to have compassion for a particular one who is making or has made your life difficult.  In general, I do feel sympathetic, and hope there is some way found to mitigate the disordered thinking/behavior.  In specific, sympathy is almost impossible to feel.

[SparklyUnicorn]

But at what point does someone cross over from just being an incredibly selfish, entitled asshole to having a personality disorder? Someone who is "merely" incredibly self-centered and egotistical is fully responsible for the damage they do, but take a tiny step further over some vaguely defined line and suddenly that person is no longer responsible, because he has an "illness"?

 

Whatever point you want.  Whether they can help being a twit or not doesn't change the fact they are.

 

I guess where it might be helpful is if they want to change.  Given the details of some of these disorders, seems unlikely.

[eternalsummer]

Sparkly, the idea is that you can say something like depression is a result of a chemical imbalance in the brain, but knowing whether that imbalance is caused by a situation in the person's life or by poor nutrition or for no apparent outside reason is important in understanding the disorder and helping the person.

 

 

I mean, I've had PPD, and I was depressed when my Dad died, for a while.  They probably had similar chemical profiles in my brain, but vastly different actual causes.

[SparklyUnicorn]

I think it's a lot easier to have compassion for the general class of sufferers of personality disorders than to have compassion for a particular one who is making or has made your life difficult.  In general, I do feel sympathetic, and hope there is some way found to mitigate the disordered thinking/behavior.  In specific, sympathy is almost impossible to feel.

 

exactly this

 

I feel compassion on a general level.  In my personal life, I have a harder time.  Honestly, I don't even care if that makes me a jerk.  Nobody walks in my shoes.

[maize]

Studies are starting to uncover differences in the brain that are linked to narcissism:

http://nymag.com/scienceofus/2015/07/a-neurological-level-narcissists-are-needy.html

 

 

http://www.drsyrasderksen.com/blog/seeing-narcissism-in-the-brain#sthash.gwU1CJoS.dpbs

[SparklyUnicorn]

Sparkly, the idea is that you can say something like depression is a result of a chemical imbalance in the brain, but knowing whether that imbalance is caused by a situation in the person's life or by poor nutrition or for no apparent outside reason is important in understanding the disorder and helping the person.

 

 

I mean, I've had PPD, and I was depressed when my Dad died, for a while.  They probably had similar chemical profiles in my brain, but vastly different actual causes.

 

Yes of course.

 

I'm just saying both cases are based on chemistry. 

 

It just seems some are saying one cause could have been prevented/controlled and the other not.  I don't know. 

[eternalsummer]

Yes. This. 

 

What are these forces that make people with personality disorders choose to be so disordered ?

 

I suppose we could consider the idea that choosing to be disordered has rewards. But then, what force makes a person find such things rewarding ? If a person with NPD is highly oriented to power over others being a reward, they either had that reinforced very strongly in the environment, or they have differences in their physical matter....or....what ? The devil made them that way ?

 

It's sheer luck that we end up not being the NPD person. Or the BPD person. It's certainly not some heroic effort of will or struggle against evil that we can pat ourselves on the back for.

 

Of course, and as I believe everything is determined (by natural law, not God, though you could say it either way if you were religious), the actions of a murderer or a cheat or a tax evader are determined too by processes he couldn't have controlled.

 

However, we still hold people responsible for bad actions, because that too is part of the natural order.  We can say manipulating people or shunning people or hurting people or abandoning your responsibilities is bad while also saying that there may be some underlying cause for the behavior that the perpetrator (obviously) has had a hard time controlling.

[SparklyUnicorn]

Yes. This. 

 

What are these forces that make people with personality disorders choose to be so disordered ?

 

I suppose we could consider the idea that choosing to be disordered has rewards. But then, what force makes a person find such things rewarding ? If a person with NPD is highly oriented to power over others being a reward, they either had that reinforced very strongly in the environment, or they have differences in their physical matter....or....what ? The devil made them that way ?

 

It's sheer luck that we end up not being the NPD person. Or the BPD person. It's certainly not some heroic effort of will or struggle against evil that we can pat ourselves on the back for.

 

I don't know that they choose it.  But if we go with saying they choose it, why would they.  Yeah...

 

Maybe they choose it because they don't care and can't empathize easily. 

[eternalsummer]

For sure. 

 

Idk about the bolded. I feel it for my specific 'BPD person'. So it's not impossible. I do think certain parameters have to be in place for that to happen. For example, there needs to be no ongoing abuse. Personality disorders sometimes 'iron out' with age...that probably helps in those situations too.

Yes, I have seen this happen and it completely baffles me.  I believe that it happens, I see that it happens, but I do not understand it.  But I accept it.

[Rosie_0801]

There is so much we don't know, and the degree to which a person with NPD can choose is one of those things.

 

One possible scenario I can imagine (pure speculation) is one in which the brain of an NPD person must categorize the people around them as "good" or "bad"; these people, maybe perceived less as real people than as characters in a story being written, must all be assigned a category. The characters in the story are then treated in accordance with the category they are perceived to fall into. But it is possible that the NPD person has no control over the need to assign a category and little if any control over who gets assigned to which.

 

The categories seem to be useful, ignorable and threatening.

[eternalsummer]

The chemistry is the result, not the cause (in the aforementioned depressive episodes)

[Corraleno]

Actually, we know less than we think. The idea that depression is a biochemical disorder...well, even that is not a stable view. For example, we know now that antidepressants don't work by increasing serotonin. Many anxiety disorders are a disorder of cognition, not of brain chemistry. Or rather, it's chicken and egg....what comes first, the cognition (likely) or the effects of that cognition ?

 

I can't get behind the idea that people with personality disorders are just choosing to be that way. Sorry. I live with someone with some BPD traits and it is most definitely not a choice, and it most definitely is an illness that causes intense pain. That person is not choosing to have or exhibit those traits.

 

And yes,  my point about NPD is that the person with it doesn't appear to suffer. And that the appearance of suffering is what allows us to categorise some disorders as 'real' and some as 'not real'. 

 

I don't think that people with personality disorders choose to have a personality disorder. I think that people who have personality disorders are not completely helpless and utterly controlled by the disorder to the extent that they have no free will.

 

As I mentioned above, the person I know who fits all the criteria for Histrionic Personality Disorder would never have chosen to have it, but she is also aware on some level that this is a problem, that her feelings and behavior are not normal, and that they adversely affect those around her. When she's in the middle of a melt-down she has no control over it, though, even if she sometimes feel badly about it afterwards. She has occasionally floated the idea of getting help, but I think she feels like it's too late now anyway. But HPD is not NPD.

 

I'm curious why you believe that every single person with NPD (and I specifically mean NPD, not HPD or BPD) suffers, even if they appear to be quite happy with their lives? 

[SparklyUnicorn]

The chemistry is the result, not the cause (in the aforementioned depressive episodes)

 

But everything is chemistry.  Behaviors aren't something other than chemistry. 

 

We probably have some influence over some of it.  I'm not saying all these things are happening completely out of our control.  That doesn't change the fact it's chemistry.

[eternalsummer]

Ah, yes, if you are looking at it that way, everything is atoms and is determined, etc.  That's fair enough, but it's kind of pointless, because then where do you go from there?  We have to act as if we have free will, and as if others do, separate of some circumstances we as a society have set aside as separate and called "mental illness."  

[SparklyUnicorn]

lol, I did a whole semester on this and it drove me slightly batty. 

 

Short answer, it's either in modules or nets. Lol. Or maybe both. Or maybe neither. 

 

Unless you think humans are made of matter plus ??? cognition obviously is a physical process involving electricity and chemistry :)

 

Well i guess we could compare it to breathing verses running.  You can only go so far to control breathing.  You can choose to run or not (usually, unless you are responding to a dangerous situation and trying to get away). 

 

It's maddening...LOL

[SparklyUnicorn]

Ah, yes, if you are looking at it that way, everything is atoms and is determined, etc.  That's fair enough, but it's kind of pointless, because then where do you go from there?  We have to act as if we have free will, and as if others do, separate of some circumstances we as a society have set aside as separate and called "mental illness."  

 

I don't think we have 100% free will. 

[maize]

I think it's a lot easier to have compassion for the general class of sufferers of personality disorders than to have compassion for a particular one who is making or has made your life difficult. In general, I do feel sympathetic, and hope there is some way found to mitigate the disordered thinking/behavior. In specific, sympathy is almost impossible to feel.

This is definitely true, and the person who has been repeatedly abused by someone may well find it impossible to feel any kind of compassion for that person. I would never blame them for that.

 

When I talk about compassion it is in terms of the need for more general compassion in our public dialog regarding what professionals in the field of psychiatry have determined to be a disorder. While there is a great deal of subjectivity, imprecision, and inadequate knowledge surrounding pretty much everything in the field of psychology, I do not think something gets labeled as a disorder if there is good reason to believe it is purely the result of bad and hurtful choices. The term implies a degree of pathology that is beyond the control of the individual.

Edited February 4, 2017 by maize

[SparklyUnicorn]

But then...did they choose to be wired in such a way as to not empathise and not care. And if they did, what factors predisposed them to do so ?

 

Seems to me that in making it all about 'free will', there's no other logical explanation, at the end, other than the person is bad. And that badness has to come either from internal causes, the environment or a malign actor. 

 

Given we hopefully have moved on from seeing mental illness as 'possession by the devil', we're left with brain structure, chemistry, or other environmental factors - prenatally, in childhood, societal....all of which its hard to see a person freely chosing to be influenced by.

 

Well I keep coming back to the example of psychopaths.  They are to me the ultimate dangerous person.  They have a ramped up and potentially highly destructive personality.  They don't give a damn about you though.  They aren't even capable of doing so.  But can we really accept them the way they are?  No...I don't think so.  Of course, what can be done?  Look for cause, treatment, and chemistry.

[SparklyUnicorn]

Not much different from having compassion for alcoholics and drug abusers.  Many people go along with the idea it's a disease that can't entirely be helped.  But go ahead and live with one.  That can range from annoying to downright terrible. 

 

 

[Scarlett]

My solution is to be educated enough to recognize a person with a personality disorder and stay away from them and or to at least be aware of the danger. I am trying to teach my son about these things too....but it is hard.

 

And if more people were educated there would be less and less people for the disordered to prey upon.

Edited February 4, 2017 by Scarlett

[Scarlett]

Stigma, stigma, stigma.

 

This thread has been very instructive. I will definitely encourage the person I know with BPD traits (engaging with and responding to treatment) to avoid self disclosure except in a very narrow circle of supportive people. And maybe not even then. It's good to know that plenty of people will simply consider this person 'bad' and 'deliberately making bad choices' and 'selfish'.

 

I definitely don't think they are 'bad' or ' deliberately making bad choices'. But I think we have to protect ourselves from them.

[LMD]

Just keep encouraging them to engage with treatment that they respond to and don't give them a pass on bad behaviour. Help them to have some self insight and self control (developed through treatment) so they don't hurt other people.

 

I wouldn't judge or be afraid of them simply for having bpd, but if they started hurting me I wouldn't stick around.

 

I'm sorry Sadie, I can imagine that this thread is painful to read. I wish everyday that things were different with my person, but it very nearly broke me and I can't weaken my hard-won boundaries.

[Scarlett]

That's the thing: I am safely away, and I am no longer as angry as I used to be, but the dissipated anger has been replaced with indifference, not compassion. I have no compassion for this person considering her actions towards so many people.

I do have compassion for my XMIL. She is 87 years old and one son is dead and 1 son hasn't spoken to her in 7 years....my xh sees her maybe once a year although I do think he keeps in phone contact. She has two grand kids who have nothing to do with her. No DILs. Really it is like she has no one.

 

She used to affect me so horribly I would literally shake. Now she has no power to hurt me. I even get an urge to go see her every now and then. Even though she has not said a single word to me in the almost 8 years since I divorced her son.

[Rosie_0801]

Stigma, stigma, stigma. 

 

This thread has been very instructive. I will definitely encourage the person I know with BPD traits (engaging with and responding to treatment) to avoid self disclosure except in a very narrow circle of supportive people. And maybe not even then.

 

All I've been told about Borderline PD is that it looks very much like anyone does when they are stressed to buggery except more intense. I looked into it a bit when it was implied that I might have it, because, ya know, I've got nothing to be stressed about.  :glare:

 

Non-disclosure is probably the safest path to take. Society still doesn't seem to have quite wrapped its collective head around depression and anxiety disorders yet and they are "easy" ones to understand. :(

[Corraleno]

Stigma, stigma, stigma. 

 

This thread has been very instructive. I will definitely encourage the person I know with BPD traits (engaging with and responding to treatment) to avoid self disclosure except in a very narrow circle of supportive people. And maybe not even then.

 

It's good to know that plenty of people will simply consider this person 'bad' and 'deliberately making bad choices' and 'selfish'. And that many people just lump all personality disorders in together...

 

First of all, BPD and NPD are very different disorders. Secondly, the person you are referring to made a choice to admit there is a problem and get help for it. That is an entirely different situation from someone with NPD who insists that they are perfect and blameless and normal, and that their victims deserve to be continually abused. 

[Scarlett]

Hon, I live with someone with personality disorder traits. I don't need to protect myself from this person, I need to help and love this person. This person is unwell, not bad, not dangerous, not to be avoided.

 

I don;t suggest that people need to help and love someone with NPD. That could be quite dangerous.

 

I do suggest people stop lumping all personality disorders in together, and stop dehumanising those who have them.

Oh sorry I thought we were talking about NPD. I should have read more closely.

[maize]

Scarlett...

 

Some of us know and love people who have suffered from personality disorders. Your comments, lumping all such disorders together and talking about "the disordered" preying on people are demonstrations of ignorance and stigmatization that do no good to anyone.

 

Some of these disorders--BPD is a good example--are beginning to see effective treatment options; the less we turn to judgmental stigmatization and the more we seek to research and support the better become our chances of helping people affected by such disorders to recover.

 

The various personality disorders do share overlapping charactersistics with each other; to me this is a cause for hope that progress in treating one disorder may eventually lead to progress in treating others, including NPD.

[lllll]

nm 

 

Edited February 10, 2017 by --Kathy--

[Scarlett]

Scarlett...

 

Some of us know and love people who have suffered from personality disorders. Your comments, lumping all such disorders together and talking about "the disordered" preying on people are demonstrations of ignorance and stigmatization that do no good to anyone.

 

Some of these disorders--BPD is a good example--are beginning to see effective treatment options; the less we turn to judgmental stigmatization and the more we seek to research and support the better become our chances of helping people affected by such disorders to recover.

 

The various personality disorders do share overlapping charactersistics with each other; to me this is a cause for hope that progress in treating one disorder may eventually lead to progress in treating others, including NPD.

Again I thought we were talking about NPD.....didn't read close enough. Sorry.

[Tanaqui]

I do not believe that people with NPD simply "cannot help themselves," in the same way that, say, a schizophrenic who hears voices cannot help it, or a bipolar person cannot help the mood swings. People with NPD may have an underlying illness, but they also have a degree of choice and agency. They choose the golden children and the scapegoats, they choose to continue to destroy people who beg them to stop.

 

Yes and no. People with cluster B personality disorders, we call them "personality disorders", but they're the result of some seriously disordered thinking.

 

They choose to behave the way they do based on their fundamentally wrong thought processes.

 

Check out this website. The author carefully researched forums for parents of estranged children. There are any number of actual quotes from these forum members.

 

These people spend hours and days of their lives, every month, recounting how horrible they think their kids are, and how much they miss them. Yes, they get a lot of validation - but honestly, they could get just as much validation by pretending they have cancer, or by hanging out on parenting forums and telling us all how to do our jobs better, or by actually being good people.

 

So there are two things here.

 

The first is this: It doesn't matter if your NPD whoever is really deeply insecure and sad inside because they harm themselves, or if they're just evil. Their behavior isn't going to change. You need to protect yourself. If you feel bad for them - fine. If you want to feel bad but can't - that's also fine. If you don't feel bad, and don't feel bad that you don't feel bad - this, too, is fine.  You have no obligation to feel a particular way. Your feelings are your feelings, and nobody - not well-meaning people on the internet, not your NPD mom, not Dr. Phil - can tell you how to feel. (You also don't have to act a certain way. Your obligation is to protect yourself, and vulnerable people in your care.)

 

The second is that people with NPD, or sociopathy, or borderline personality disorder - they can't help being the way they are. We don't know how to treat that, and it's possible we never will, but if they could choose to be good people and sincere and to care about others... well, then they would. Anybody would. And if they were able to make that choice, then it'd be easy to treat people right. But they have a hard time treating people right, because their understanding of the world, and of other people, is missing a few crucial links. My experience suggests that most of them do know they're missing out... they just have no way to get what they're missing.

[eternalsummer]

Stigma, stigma, stigma. 

 

This thread has been very instructive. I will definitely encourage the person I know with BPD traits (engaging with and responding to treatment) to avoid self disclosure except in a very narrow circle of supportive people. And maybe not even then.

 

It's good to know that plenty of people will simply consider this person 'bad' and 'deliberately making bad choices' and 'selfish'. And that many people just lump all personality disorders in together...

 

Are you saying that somehow people with borderline are not responsible for their behavior but people with narcissitic are?  or that people with borderline are less bad than people with NPD?

 

I think we can lump them altogether (as much as we can ever lump groups of people together) as "people with mental problems somewhat out of their control, for whom we hope we can find some way to help"

[eternalsummer]

Oh, that's fair enough.  I just thought you were objecting to people saying all personality disordered people were bad people, because certainly BPD people aren't, etc.

[Corraleno]

Yes and no. People with cluster B personality disorders, we call them "personality disorders", but they're the result of some seriously disordered thinking.

 

They choose to behave the way they do based on their fundamentally wrong thought processes.

 

Check out this website. The author carefully researched forums for parents of estranged children. There are any number of actual quotes from these forum members.

 

These people spend hours and days of their lives, every month, recounting how horrible they think their kids are, and how much they miss them. Yes, they get a lot of validation - but honestly, they could get just as much validation by pretending they have cancer, or by hanging out on parenting forums and telling us all how to do our jobs better, or by actually being good people.

 

So there are two things here.

 

The first is this: It doesn't matter if your NPD whoever is really deeply insecure and sad inside because they harm themselves, or if they're just evil. Their behavior isn't going to change. You need to protect yourself. If you feel bad for them - fine. If you want to feel bad but can't - that's also fine. If you don't feel bad, and don't feel bad that you don't feel bad - this, too, is fine.  You have no obligation to feel a particular way. Your feelings are your feelings, and nobody - not well-meaning people on the internet, not your NPD mom, not Dr. Phil - can tell you how to feel. (You also don't have to act a certain way. Your obligation is to protect yourself, and vulnerable people in your care.)

 

The second is that people with NPD, or sociopathy, or borderline personality disorder - they can't help being the way they are. We don't know how to treat that, and it's possible we never will, but if they could choose to be good people and sincere and to care about others... well, then they would. Anybody would. And if they were able to make that choice, then it'd be easy to treat people right. But they have a hard time treating people right, because their understanding of the world, and of other people, is missing a few crucial links. My experience suggests that most of them do know they're missing out... they just have no way to get what they're missing.

 

This is based on the assumption that all people are inherently "good" unless something goes wrong in their development — that no one would ever choose to hurt other people, therefore anyone who does simply can't help themselves.  If that were true, then all warfare, murder, torture, rape, genocide — every evil thing that has ever been done by one human to another — is just an accident of biology, for which no one can be held accountable, since the people who commit those atrocities would have chosen to be "good people" if they had been able to.

 

I don't believe that. 

 

I'm NOT saying that people with personality disorders are inherently "bad" people. And I've repeatedly said that I do not lump NPD with BPD and HPD. But I don't think you can simply dismiss anyone who checks all the boxes on the DSM list for NPD as the helpless victim of a mental illness that leaves them with no choice but to behave badly. I mean Hitler and Stalin would easily qualify for an NPD diagnosis. Do they get a pass because clearly something went wrong somewhere in their development, and they just couldn't help themselves?

[FaithManor]

I am in the middle of dealing with a man that I once called "dad" and thought of in that capacity but now can barely admit is my DNA donor.

 

Sigh...I have read the entire thread in the hopes of gleaning some nuggets of help with enduring him or controlling my own emotions. I do not know all that goes into diagnosing and treatment, but sadly what five pages of reading has made me realize is that I am now to the place that I simply have no care or concern for him at all. I can't. It is too damaging, and I cannot continue to take care of my family and give any emotional energy to him. He has abused the last ounce of reserve emotional energy I have for him right out of me.

 

In terms of family dynamic, there was no golden child nor a scapegoat child. He had us all gaslighted so well that my sister thought she was the scapegoat and my brother the golden, my brother thought myself sister was the golden and he was the scape goat, and I thought my sister was the scapegoat, and I was the slightly golden though definitely not favorite...I laid low and didn't rock the boat, a solitary child. It does not seem like this is typical of NPD dynamics, however my brother is 5 years older than me, and I am almost 14 years older than my sister so we were never in similar developmental/relationship phases at the same time. Maybe that has something to do with it.

 

He was abused by his father, and burned in the Air Force which maybe caused some PTSD though currently none of his mental health team has suggested it. One sister has been severely depressed her entire life and suicidal, one sister is schizophrenic, and his younger brother was OCD, perfectionist, abusive to his wife and kids. Four for four. A pretty bad genetic batting average. So probably a combo of nature, environment, and situations/nuture.

 

It really no longer matters to me if he is mentally ill, just evil, or some blend of both. I am not a decent enough human being anymore to give any more energy to him.

 

He tried to kill my mother - nearly succeeded - and then himself 16 months ago. The fallout has beyond the pale of anything I ever imagined I would deal with. He continues to this day to heap abuse on our heads even as he is dying of cancer, and the things he has said to our middle son are unconscionable. So I find myself in this paradox. I am by nature compassionate, pro mental health research and treatment, etc. and am very much that way still in worldview, social theory, and political position. Believe it or not, I am pretty great with my depressed aunt. But the NPD in my life truly enjoys causing pain and suffering. Gets off on it. It is like his personal drug. He.eats.it.up.

 

I don't know if he is a sociopath or NPD. Whatever it is, the level of maliciousness is off the charts. I know I should feel compassion for him, but really all I have to work with is a matter of survival. There just isn't anything left.

 

This is what NPD does to offspring. I do not know if any other personality disorders have the same consequences. But whatever the current therapeutic approach is to NPD, I can say it is entirely ineffective at least for him despite the parade of psychiatrists, psychologists, therapists, and pharmaceuticals. There should be a lot more research devoted to this. I know so many people who are torn apart by NPD's. The wake of victims need some hope that future generations will have monumentally better tools in their belts for dealing with this. I suppose I should care about bettering the lives of the sufferers, but at this point I can't quite drum that up yet. Maybe when he is gone.....

 

No matter what, with a four for four family disaster paternally, my kids and I are taking mental health for ourselves very seriously. None of us are willing to put other people through this hell. I hope and pray the generational damage stops here.

Edited February 5, 2017 by FaithManor

[maize]

I am so sorry Faith.

[Scarlett]

Yes Faith I am sorry too.

[Anne in CA]

Has she ever been offered, or been able to access treatment ? 

 

Obviously she has a diagnosis for you to call her your BPD person. 

 

I would personally feel very sorry for someone with BPD who was not able to access or engage in treatment, for whatever reason. It's kind of like someone with cancer not being able to get chemo.

She has had every, and I do mean every opportunity to get treatment. She has put me and people I love through so. much. garbage. that it is hard to be compassionate. The first person to suggest her as a BPD was the therapist dh and I saw with her oldest child who was exhibiting scary behavior. The therapist met with dh and I alone, made this guess and told us she was super happy with how her life was, and was unlikely to change. The therapist warned us about a lot of things that we didn't take seriously because she seemed so intense. We were naive. 

 

Her mother paid for several expensive therapists who all told her mother that she didn't want to change.

 

Her father (not a dummy, a top NASA scientist) also went to a lot of trouble to get her help and she went along as long as she was getting what she wanted. The second she was required to make changes she stopped getting help.

 

This is not the right analogy. She had LOTS of opportunity for help. Not just from family, but from other people she toyed with over the years. She did her best to ruin her five children. The only one who has not been is jail is the one I raised. She is not a victim. The worst part is that she might have been able to make changes if people had let her sink to the bottom. Although, it possible that she would have simply lived on the streets. Lots of mentally ill people do.

 

At this point she is not a problem in my life, my oldest is 28 and finally making progress in her own life. She has a nice home, a car, a decent job and is developing her art skills. The BPD mom? Not so much. She is way over 400lb and only moves from her chair to her bed and back again. She has her youngest three children living with her when they are not in jail. She had lots, and I do mean lots of opportunities for change. She used them all to manipulate people who cared for her and showed her compassion. Her own parents are elderly and she will not be able to depend on them much longer. It would be sad, if we weren't all burnt out on her.

[swellmomma]

No clue, wish I did.

Oldest was diagnosed very young with conduct disorder (so a step worse than ODD).  Now that he is 18, it is likely the label will be switched to BPD or APD, which has similarities to NPD.  I have no idea what triggered it.  We started seeing signs something wasn't "right" from earlier infancy.  Now that said our home was not a pleasant place to be for his first 2.5 years of life due to my exhusband's alcoholism and control issues, son was neglected and possibly abused by his babysitter which resulted in a broken leg at age 23 months. And so there is factors that could have stirred it all up to be worse than it perhaps would have been.  I have been trying to get answers and find help his whole life, the system is so effed up that I swear it made things worse (his labels change often depending on who is assessing him, but that one always stays).  All I know is his behaviours have created issues for the whole family, have affected the mental health of the other kids, have made my home chaotic always.  I do think there is a genetic component in there from his father.  His father is pretty close to fitting the Dx of NPD in my opinion, and he is a controlling arsehat that was absent from the kids lives for a decade, then showed back up, treated them like dirt and tried to control every aspect of their being, until oldest decided 4 weeks ago to cut off all contact with him.  I do think that he had a predisposition for one of the B disorders and the chaos of his earliest years and the dysfunction triggered it, and from there he created the dysfunction that carries on. 

He has improved over time to an extent but not enough to lose any B diagnosis.

Edited February 5, 2017 by swellmomma

[Corraleno]

But the NPD in my life truly enjoys causing pain and suffering. Gets off on it. It is like his personal drug. He.eats.it.up.

 

This is why I think there should be a CLEAR distinction between NPD/Antisocial PD and the other personality disorders. It is also a big part of why I object to the whole concept of "personality disorders" as they are currently described.

 

The other eight so-called disorders are mostly personality "types" that, when combined with issues like anxiety, depression, fear of failure, disordered thought patterns, etc., become dysfunctional. IMO labeling someone with extreme social anxiety as having Avoidant Personality Disorder, or someone who feels helpless and fearful as Dependent Personality Disorder, or someone whose anxiety and fear of rejection leads them to act out dramatically for attention as having Histrionic Personality Disorder, is really not helpful. 

 

IMO, putting people with BPD, HPD, and other so-called PDs in the same category as people who actually derive pleasure from controlling and damaging other people, who lie and cheat without guilt or remorse, just causes unnecessary pain and stigma for the people who do want help.

[Anne in CA]

The whole situation is sad. Unfortunately I think in he case her super intelligence worked against her. She used it to manipulate people. Very few people in the world are as smart as she was and she had a hard time accepting help from people she felt were inferior. Several of the professionals she saw over the years mentioned that. I think it would have been better for her if she weren't so smart. 

[TravelingChris]

For many years, I didn't know any NPDs.  But from being on this board, I think I do know one now.  The business with golden child and scapegoat child seems to fit.  I have met this person and she seems to be reasonable.  But the stories I have heard from a person I trust makes me think she is just putting on a good face. She does this thing of giving golden family nice gifts and giving scapegoat family weird and cheap and not appropriate (not in a sexual way but in a to the occasion way).   What surprises me is that scapegoat family seems to be the one doing the most for her.  

[Corraleno]

I think the golden child/scapegoat dynamic can exist in families without the abuser necessarily having NPD. That dynamic definitely existed in my own family (I was the scapegoat) but my mother doesn't really fit the criteria for NPD — no huge ego, delusions of grandeur, sense of entitlement, etc. Just a very insecure, extremely controlling person who could not stand to be questioned or challenged in any way. Physically and emotionally abusive, and extremely manipulative, but doesn't check enough boxes for NPD.

 

I also think it's pretty common for the scapegoat to be the child who ends up doing the most for the parent, because they are always trying to prove their worth and win the parent's approval. 

[lailasmum]

I feel some compassion for the NPD person I know but at the same time I feel he's too toxic to actually have any contact with, he destroys people. I wish his family could cut him off altogether but that's hard. I wonder if even without childhood abuse he'd be fairly self centered but maybe would have developed some balancing traits.

 

I do slightly know someone with borderline personality disorder and I don't feel anything negative about her. She's clearly in so much distress at times and her condition does a number on her just when she thinks things are going ok. It must be exhausting. From my point of view they seem pretty different.

[EndOfOrdinary]

I ossilate between compassion and anger/hurt. Most of my feeling is incredulous. Their behavior just does not make sense to me. As a very (perhaps overly) rational person, that is extremely difficult for ne to navigate. I believe my emotions are wrapped up in the discussion Sadie is working with: I know underneathe is a scared, hurting, damaged person, but where does my responsibility of compassion balance my personal need of self validation.

 

I have yet to come up with an answer. Though, I have realized that I need to mentally segment myself into the person NPD individual knows and the person I am strengthening. This does not seem dishonest at present, though it might in the future. It feels like the best way to provide compassion, but safeguard myself from emotional destruction.

[Carrie12345]

Compassion in a general humanity picture is something that, for me, is never going to be switched off, I don't think.  Compassion on an individual, person-to-person level?  That nearly destroyed my finances, my marriage, my children, and my very sanity.  No hyperbole.  And that was just from what I was aware of at the time.  Since reclaiming my life, I've come to find out even more chilling things that, had I known earlier, could have caused me to completely snap and possibly not come back from it.

 

I do not like the idea of the NPD in my life suffering in the hell she's made, but there is no saving her EVEN IF I were to fully sacrifice myself and my family.  Nothing she has already taken has benefited her for more than 30 seconds at a time. Sometimes not even that.

 

The Boarderline PD in my life is slightly different.  She's getting help, and I'm told she's improving.  My compassion goes as far as hoping for the very best for her and politely interacting once or twice a year for other people's sake. There's little danger to me and my family in that, because she bores easily of people who don't feed her.  Whereas our NPD will become even more vicious in her attempts.

[maize]

I appreciate people sharing their stories.

 

I've been thinking about something that relates to the question of choice in behavior for a person with a serious disorder such as NPD. When you consider such a person's worst, most harmful behaviors, could you imagine yourself engaging in those behaviors--just choosing to treat the people around you as they do, not in a moment of anger and frustration but in a calculated, habitual manner?

 

I don't think that I could. I literally do not believe that my brain is capable of making such a choice because to do so would cause :me: too much distress; I can't just choose to turn off empathy for other people and to not be hurt when they are hurt. I don't think that anyone with a normally functioning, undamaged brain can do that. If I would be incapable of choosing to act as an NPD person acts, how could I assume that for them the behavior is just a choice?

[EndOfOrdinary]

I think I am struggling with if it matters whether or not it is a choice. The level of harm is so significant, does it matter if they are choosing to do it?

 

ETA: I guess what I mean is, if the individual will not recognise and respect my humanity, does it matter if that is voluntary? They won't do it. Is the reasoning why something I have a responsibilty to grapple with?

Edited February 5, 2017 by EndOfOrdinary

[maize]

I think I am struggling with if it matters whether or not it is a choice. The level of harm is so significant, does it matter if they are choosing to do it?

I don't think it matters in terms of how people should respond. The potential harm is real either way, so taking protective measures (boundaries, including cutting off contact as necessary) is appropriate.

 

It matters in terms of how we view and develop treatments for the disorder.

[Guest]

What do you want people to do maize?

 

You can't say "you SHOULD feel compassion or else researchers might not find a cure." And expect ppl to be like "gee whiz that goes against all my own experience and wisdom, but okie doke, I feel what she said I should feel now."

 

Ykwim

 

Pp is right. For all of most people's intents and purposes it does not matter if it's on purpose or not.

 

And people shouldn't have to get to the point where their families have been destroyed and they have nothing left to give before Jonny peanut gallery throws them an "of course if you're hitting you're entitled to your feelings." Everyone is entitled to their feelings.... Something NPD people steadfastly do NOT acknowledge.