How does NPD develop?

[maize]

Maybe an analogy would help:

If I were carrying some deadly and highly contagious disease, you could feel compasionate towards me while simultaneously recognizing the need to protect yourself and your family. You might determine that an appropriate boundary would be to quarantine me--or quarantine yourself away from me. That action has nothing to do with a lack of compassion--it is dictated by the need to protect yourself from unnecessary harm.

 

That is how I perceive establishing and maintaining boundaries around relationships with an NPD person--we have the right to protect ourselves from harm; we have an obligation to protect children from harm.

 

Compassion and precautions are not mutually exclusive.

[Rosie_0801]

If the sermon is being directed at me, Maize, you can keep it.

 

I *don't* have the right to protect myself and my children and you know it.

[Tanaqui]

It is tricky because, in the absence of a willingness to recognize the need for and seek treatment, there's not much that other people being impacted by the maladaptive and harmful behaviours can do except to focus on creating and maintaining healthy boundaries. I am convinced however that a person who has actual diagnosible NPD is themself a victim of a socially and emotionally devastating handicap. In my view, actual reciprocal, healthy relationships with others are a basic human need. A person with NPD never achieves that.

 

Oh, certainly. People with any personality disorder, they're not happy.

 

But we don't really know how to treat NPD. (There is some evidence - very small, very recent - that it may be possible to get them to empathize with others if you carefully guide them through the steps of putting themselves in others' shoes. No word on if you can get them to do it on their own, though.) And meanwhile, they can do a lot of harm to other people.

 

Your responsibility is to protect yourself, and any vulnerable minors you are responsible for. Your responsibility is not to suffer and hope that your loved one with NPD finds the help they need.

 

To use the downthread analogy, people with NPD are like Typhoid Mary. They might not really understand that they're sick, and it's not their fault, but the only solution is to exile them on North Brother Island so they don't harm anybody else.

[maize]

If the sermon is being directed at me, Maize, you can keep it.

 

I *don't* have the right to protect myself and my children and you know it.

I wasn't trying to sermon, just discuss. I disagree with the contention that compassion for a disorder equates to or necessitates turning oneself into a doormat to be trampled on.

 

In your particular situation, I would say you are doing everything in your power to protect yourself and your child. Your ability to do so is being frustratingly limited by external circumstances.

 

I am sorry if I have said things that upset you. I'm dealing with this whole question on a more theoretical than personal level and do not mean to be hurtful to those who have been traumatized.

[Rosie_0801]

I think theory falls down when we are talking about people who destroy their own spouses and children because they are either trying to or because they view you as sub-human and undeserving of the basic necessities of life.

 

Do you know anyone with a personality disorder, Maize? You are speaking like someone who is familiar with some types of mental illnesses, but not personality disorders. There is a voluntary aspect to NPD that you don't get with anxiety or depression based illnesses.

 

I don't think it is all voluntary, because it is an illness, but I know some of it is because I have watched them choose.

[jewellsmommy]

The question I asked at the beginning of this thread was originally sparked by one of my children behaving in an extremely emotionally manipulative way. Such behavior is not particularly uncommon from this particular child and stems from extreme anxiety and insecurity--they try to address their own discomfort by manipulating the people around them. I worry at times that these behaviors in childhood could be a prelude to full-blown NPD in adulthood (It goes well beyond the normal self-centered perspective that can be expected in children).

 

It is very clear at this point that the inappropriately manipulative behavior is coming from a place of profound discomfort and insecurity. That is not a way that anyone would choose to live.

 

EDITED to remove private info (trying to leave the helpful bits though).  :001_smile:

 

A psychiatrist told us that, as a general rule, personality is set by 14/15. This was said in relation to discussing personality disorders. I firmly believe that it is a combination of genetics, development (occurrences in utero), and trauma/experiences/nurture. 

 

The only therapy that I have seen with the ability to truly impact behavior is neurofeedback. If you can have a brainmap done, I would highly encourage you to do so. 

Edited February 5, 2017 by jewellsmommy

[maize]

I have more familiarity with BPD than NPD.

 

I don't think any mental illness robs us entirely of the ability to make choices, but they do profoundly affect our decision making mechanisms. A key element of NPD as I understand it is an inability to empathize with others; that is going to change the way decisions are made when compared with the decision making process in a person without the disorder.

[maize]

I won't quote but really appreciate your input Tammy.

[gardenmom5]

Yeah, compassion for an NPD person is a big neon sign saying "You can exploit me!"

 

Sure I have compassion for the reasons my favourite narcissists became that way, but they're all plenty big enough to avoid trying to destroy people. It's not like they don't know what civilised behaviour is. They demand it for themselves.

 

I have also wondered whether NPD was a grown up version of RAD. 

 

 

Not that I can see into the future, Maize, but I don't think you're dealing with NPD. Controlling others to create feelings of safety isn't the same as being an emotional vampire.

 

 

I think theory falls down when we are talking about people who destroy their own spouses and children because they are either trying to or because they view you as sub-human and undeserving of the basic necessities of life.

 

Do you know anyone with a personality disorder, Maize? You are speaking like someone who is familiar with some types of mental illnesses, but not personality disorders. There is a voluntary aspect to NPD that you don't get with anxiety or depression based illnesses.

 

I don't think it is all voluntary, because it is an illness, but I know some of it is because I have watched them choose.

 

:iagree:  this, especially the bolded.  I would watch her choose - and ENJOY belittling and demeaning people.  she was evil. not even going to get into the details.

 

I can have compassion for the child she was and that she most likely had some lousy experiences as. a. child.!  but, she grew up.  she got married.  she had her own child.  she moved away.  she had her own home.  she worked - in an age when women with children stayed home - so she had her own income.  and - how she treated people,  my compassion ends where I have anxiety attacks.  my compassion ends where I question which direction is up. my compassion ends when I have  to repair extensive damage she caused me, and others.  no, boundaries were necessary to protect ourselves from her.

 

eta:she made choices - and they are on her head.

Edited February 4, 2017 by gardenmom5

[Rosie_0801]

I have more familiarity with BPD than NPD.

 

I don't think any mental illness robs us entirely of the ability to make choices, but they do profoundly affect our decision making mechanisms. A key element of NPD as I understand it is an inability to empathize with others; that is going to change the way decisions are made when compared with the decision making process in a person without the disorder.

 

Y'know. I'm not altogether sure about this. I *think* I have seen NPD people empathise, but I'd possibly need someone else familiar with the same people to deconstruct it with. It sure seemed like they put effort into curing themselves of it though. It feels more like a disinclination than an inability.

 

But hey. If I could read their minds, I wouldn't be a victim of.

 

 

Does anyone know about schema therapy? I'm interested in the neurofeedback stuff too, if anyone wants to expand.

 

 

There is all the talk about wanting deep bonds with people. I wonder if they mean any of it or if it's just another hook to draw people in, or if they are using words they don't really understand, sort of feeling profound when they really aren't. One of my favourite NPDers can apparently feel deep bonding experiences with people they know are feeling the opposite. I don't know how to think about that properly.

[LMD]

My npd appears very good at empathy- because she runs on emotion. People love spilling their deepest emotions to her and she loves to give advice. Being needed, feeling superior.

If you don't take her advice, or go to her with your emotions, then you are inviting an attack. The rules of the whole world hang on her emotional state in the moment, and the rules change as her mood changes.

 

She has only one long term friend who lives in a different state. She's run off everyone else with a mega tantrum eventually.

 

My sister has never seen a full tantrum. Once, she came close, my sister and her partner were looking to buy a house 30 minutes away from her, they didn't ask for her help or opinion fast enough. My sister rang me in tears thinking that mum had had a mental snap of some kind - nope, it was exactly what she does to everyone eventually. The tantrum was averted when my sister apologised for not including her enough and then bought a house 5 minutes away. Totally appeased.

(Mum later picked up and moved interstate with her latest boyfriend)

[Anne in CA]

Oh yeah. 

 

That's why we don't catch the covert narcissists until we're pregnant with their children. We didn't *need* anything until then.

 

Then, of course, we bust our butts trying to keep marriages together for the sake of those children. 

I think that is super typical. Also, since they put such a good front up at first a person keeps thinking that "when things settle down and my spouse is himself/ herself, things will be wonderful!" It takes a long time to realize the wonderful part was only an act, not the actual person inside.

[Guest]

Maybe an analogy would help:

If I were carrying some deadly and highly contagious disease, you could feel compasionate towards me while simultaneously recognizing the need to protect yourself and your family. You might determine that an appropriate boundary would be to quarantine me--or quarantine yourself away from me. That action has nothing to do with a lack of compassion--it is dictated by the need to protect yourself from unnecessary harm.

 

That is how I perceive establishing and maintaining boundaries around relationships with an NPD person--we have the right to protect ourselves from harm; we have an obligation to protect children from harm.

 

Compassion and precautions are not mutually exclusive.

 

Your compassion makes you feel good and you should (obviously, self-evidently, I don't need to say so!) hang on to it.

 

Calling a dumpterfire human being a dumpsterfire human being helps me. I don't misunderstand your position. It's not theoretical to me and I do not feel compassion for NPDs except in the most vague fellow-human sort of way. They make their beds. Understand that this isn't "throwing stones" because of one or a million sins. It is recognizing that some people are pure poison.

 

It is my opinion that there is no healthy boundary with a full blown NPD, except perhaps professional ones. You can not have a closer relationship with them than, say, waiter-customer, cardiologist-patient...because there is ZERO mutuality. They are like jellyfish, floating around absorbing whatever happens to float nearby.

[maize]

I can understand an inability to feel compassion for a person you have been traumatized by.

 

I'm not comfortable with dismissing 6% or so of humanity as basically inhuman. I do understand needing to keep your distance; that seems to be the only healthy thing to do in many cases.

 

In the context of this discussion, I think that if we are ever going to try to understand and address the development and possible prevention of and/or treatment for a disorder--any disorder--we have to start with compassion for the human beings affected by the disorder.

 

Of course that does not preclude compassion for people victimized by the disordered individual. The two are not mutually exclusive.

 

I apologize if my theorizing has been triggering for some people.

Edited February 4, 2017 by maize

[Rosie_0801]

I'm not comfortable with dismissing 6% or so of humanity as basically inhuman.

 

 

The interesting thing about that is if that 6% (NPD anyway, like I said, I have no experience with other cluster B disorders) ever decided to care about you then stop, basically sub-human is what they'd think of you. They would do what they could to ruin your reputation without ruining their own, and would try and take everything that matters to you. They would do a good job too, because you'd have told them how and they will always be prepared to behave worse than you. Your morals are a built in safety mechanism for them.

 

 

It's not a comfortable thing at all.

 

 

No amount of compassion from us is going to help them. They feed on it and use it to reinforce themselves. They aren't going to seek treatment either, because they don't consider themselves to require it and it would require subordinating themselves to someone. They only subordinate themselves to avoid responsibility and to manipulate. Neither motivation is compatible with recovery.

 

Prevention is another problem entirely. People who behave like decent people aren't the cause, so I don't know how they can be the solution.

 

 

If anyone is thinking people with NPD can't be that bad, you've just discovered a reason why people stay instead of leaving.

[SparklyUnicorn]

I can understand an inability to feel compassion for a person you have been traumatized by.

 

I'm not comfortable with dismissing 6% or so of humanity as basically inhuman. I do understand needing to keep your distance; that seems to be the only healthy thing to do in many cases.

 

In the context of this discussion, I think that if we are ever going to try to understand and address the development and possible prevention of and/or treatment for a disorder--any disorder--we have to start with compassion for the human beings affected by the disorder.

 

Of course that does not preclude compassion for people victimized by the disordered individual. The two are not mutually exclusive.

 

I apologize if my theorizing has been triggering for some people.

 

I was just thinking about this.  I thought on the one hand hmmm seems kinda mean to think about people who have these disorders as being just evil twits.  They probably can't help it.  But then I think of some of the people in my own life.  They cannot help it.  It's just hard to be the brunt of that.  So I get that POV too. 

[Guest]

I can understand an inability to feel compassion for a person you have been traumatized by.

 

I'm not comfortable with dismissing 6% or so of humanity as basically inhuman.

OK

In the context of this discussion, I think that if we are ever going to try to understand and address the development and possible prevention of and/or treatment for a disorder--any disorder--we have to start with compassion for the human beings affected by the disorder.

 

I disagree. I am not a researcher/scientist/psychologist. As I said in my first post, my opinions about this don't matter at all, to anyone. And I trust that researchers can, in fact, research without actively feeling compassion....which is an extremely indistinct concept, any way. Not indistinct: how NPD people can and do come along and calculatingly ruin lives with zero remorse.

 

 

 

 

ETA--for my part, I am not triggered by talking about NPD at all. The NPD people I know are once removed. that is, I have seen them set the lives of people I love on metaphorical fire; not my own.

Edited February 4, 2017 by OKBud

[snowbeltmom]

I was just thinking about this.  I thought on the one hand hmmm seems kinda mean to think about people who have these disorders as being just evil twits.  They probably can't help it.  But then I think of some of the people in my own life.  They cannot help it.  It's just hard to be the brunt of that.  So I get that POV too. 

I've been thinking about the comments in this thread, too.  For me, it would be easier to have sympathy for these people if they were "evil twits" to everyone in their life.  Then, I would think that they just can't help themselves and have no control over their actions.  However, these people are not "evil twits" to everyone in their life - they usually have a "golden child" who can do no wrong, and they would never subject the golden child to the same behavior that they dole out to others in their life. 

 

These people are making a choice to treat some better than others, so it is very difficult for me to accept that these people cannot help their behavior, kwim?

Edited February 4, 2017 by snowbeltmom

[SparklyUnicorn]

I've been thinking about the comments in this thread, too.  For me, it would be easier to have sympathy for these people if they were "evil twits" to everyone in their life.  Then, I would think that they just can't help themselves and have no control over their actions.  However, these people are not "evil twits" to everyone in their life - they usually have a "golden child" who can do no wrong, and they would never subject the golden child to the same behavior that they dole out to others in their life. 

 

These people are making a choice to treat some better than others, so it is very difficult for me to accept that these people cannot help their behavior, kwim?

 

Hm.  The one person of all my family members who did have a diagnosed personality disorder, was an evil twit to everyone.  If they are turning it on and off, well then that's just odd in my mind.  So yeah I would wonder about that too.

[snowbeltmom]

Hm.  The one person of all my family members who did have a diagnosed personality disorder, was an evil twit to everyone.  If they are turning it on and off, well then that's just odd in my mind.  So yeah I would wonder about that too.

That's interesting.  So the person you know who exhibits this behavior doesn't have a "golden child" in his/her life?

[SparklyUnicorn]

That's interesting.  So the person you know who exhibits this behavior doesn't have a "golden child" in his/her life?

 

Nope.  Not at all. 

[maize]

Hm. The one person of all my family members who did have a diagnosed personality disorder, was an evil twit to everyone. If they are turning it on and off, well then that's just odd in my mind. So yeah I would wonder about that too.

Well, I have seen with BPD, and heard described with RAD, behaviors that tend towards harsh/hurtful with "close" people while the same person presents as nice and even charming to outsiders.

 

The fact that the behavior changes from person to person doesn't necessarily mean the individual is capable of choosing positive interactions with everyone.

 

I don't think we have a good handle on the actual causes of such things and the role of individual choice in the matter at all.

Edited February 4, 2017 by maize

[maize]

 

I keep thinking about children. If, say, one in every 15 children is going to grow up with diagnosible NPD--that would logically include some of the children of people on this board. Would any of us want that to be our own children, any more than we would want our children marrying an NPD person?

 

Children aren't evil. Most of us can dredge up some compassion for even the most horrifically presenting (behavior wise) RAD kid. We tend to judge adults much more harshly; certainly adults have more power than most children to inflict harm on others.

 

I'm thinking and wondering and processing our loud here.

[Scarlett]

The person I believe is NPD is my XMIL.

 

 

Her Golden Child (my BIL) hasn't spoken to her in 7 years. He did not turn out NPD at all. He decided long ago he wasn't going to take what she dished out and so he kept comtact to a minimum for years and then finally just no more. She is 87 now.

 

My xh has spent his life twisting himself into a pretzel to please her....except for the brief period of time when he made the decision to marry me against her demand that he break it off with me. She boycotted the wedding and gave me heck for the next 26 years.

 

By the time I was old enough and had had enough of her to not care what she thought......I could see some of her behaviors from a detached POV. She couldn't get any of her boys to fall in line just right. My 2 BILs wouldn't for sure ( although the oldest one played the game whenever he needed something from her) and my xh was married to me and she couldn't control me she she acted like he was tainted as well.

 

Anyway, the town knew she was nuts....but she did befriend a few families. Her vet and family....from all accounts very very nice people.....and of course she was a customer of theirs too,,,,but she fell in love with their 'perfect' children. The boy especially....Jacob this and Jacob that and went on and on to us about how perfect he was. When I saw that she had a picture of this boy framed on her nightstand....I was like, ok that is super weird. None of her boys or her two grandchildren...but the vets son yep there he was. And one time I was present when she took a phone call from Jacob....he was checking on her. At time I imagined that his parents encouraged it because she was giving a sob story about her son's caring nothing about her. It just now occurred to me she very well may have faked that call.

 

Other weird things she did was have a conversation with me about how she was going to leave all of her money to an orphanage because she has always been interested in helping children ( not). I said sweetly, ' well. people have the right to leave their money to whomever they want.'

 

One time her hairdresser had a litter of Boxers for sale. She offered to buy us one. We picked out a male, but they weren't ready to leave their mom yet. She spent the next two weeks relentlessly trying to convince my xh to choose a female that she felt was a better choice. It was just crazy. Xh finally told her just forget it.

 

Oh and the rudeness and downright cruelty. She would zero in on a physical feature and make fun of it. One sister law she called gummy because her gums showed when she smiled. Another sister she called giraffe because she was taller than BIL.

These were beautiful girls too. As for me? I have a big @ss and stringy black hair.

 

She was so so full of herself. Sometimes she amused me. 'Don't marry Scarlett, she has bad jeans'. That is a classic right there. My family particularly loves that one.

 

She went to a year of college and so felt she was superior to me in every way. I heard xh tell her one time, "Scarlett reads more books in a month than you have read in your life'. I can only image what she was saying on the other end.

 

Sorry for the trip down memory lane. Good times, good times.

 

But I truly am sorry for those of you trapped by someone like that.

Edited February 4, 2017 by Scarlett

[OneStepAtATime]

Maize, I think I understand what you are saying.  I think the problem is because NPD people can cause SOOOOO much destruction, over and over and over, the people around them that end up on the wrong end of their destructive tendencies end up suffering tremendous emotional scars.  Hard to feel compassion when you have been deliberately maimed over and over, even if because of an underlying mental disorder the NPD person really can't help themselves.  (and I honestly don't know if they can help themselves, since the majority seem to follow a very similar pattern of behavior, like it is somehow programmed in, however erratic it may seem from the outside).  It isn't just hard, it can put the victim of the NPD in a position where they cannot protect themselves or their family.

 

I agree, it is possible to feel compassion for the person who suffers from NPD while still doing everything possible to distance oneself and one's family for their own protection, but taking that path can be exceedingly challenging.  And can make it harder to enforce boundaries and protect oneself.  NPD people have frequently learned how to manipulate to an amazing degree.  Feeling compassion can make a person extremely vulnerable to the NPD.  Not everyone is strong enough and cognizant enough of the danger to both feel compassion and firmly walk away from the emotional manipulation.

 

If there IS a cause or series of things that cause NPD, then just blaming the adult NPD without having some compassion for the child that they were and a desire not to just blame the adult but also dig into why the adult has NPD may prevent us as a species from digging into this further, with clear eyes, and trying to determine what pushes some down this road and others not (and hopefully finding a way to prevent it).  I agree with that.  I am a very compassionate person.  I do care about people, including people with personality issues.  I also think, though, that compassion can be a tricky and potentially dangerous thing for an individual dealing with someone with NPD.  

 

I appreciate your perspective, and that you want a discussion of all sides of this issue.

Edited February 4, 2017 by OneStepAtATime

[snowbeltmom]

Well, I have seen with BPD, and heard described with RAD, behaviors that tend towards harsh/hurtful with "close" people while the same person presents as nice and even charming to outsiders.

 

The fact that the behavior changes from person to person doesn't necessarily mean the individual is capable of choosing positive interactions with everyone.

 

I don't think we have a good handle on the actual causes of such things and the role of individual choice in the matter at all.

 

I agree that people can behave differently with people that they are close to vs outsiders.  I think this behavior is very common, especially with children...they feel safe to share their frustrations with us because they know we will always love them.

 

I also agree with the bolded.  I think all of us , due to our unique personalities, interact differently with different people.

 

But with the NPD, it's not just the actual interactions due to differences in personalities or the "close" vs "outsider", though - It is all the extras that occur beyond the face to face interactions.  It is the smear campaigns and completely made-up stories that also are components of dealing with this type of person.  It is hard for me to understand how these actions are not a choice, especially when not everyone in the circle is subject to them.  

 

[gardenmom5]

Your compassion makes you feel good and you should (obviously, self-evidently, I don't need to say so!) hang on to it.

 

Calling a dumpterfire human being a dumpsterfire human being helps me. I don't misunderstand your position. It's not theoretical to me and I do not feel compassion for NPDs except in the most vague fellow-human sort of way. They make their beds. Understand that this isn't "throwing stones" because of one or a million sins. It is recognizing that some people are pure poison.

 

It is my opinion that there is no healthy boundary with a full blown NPD, except perhaps professional ones. You can not have a closer relationship with them than, say, waiter-customer, cardiologist-patient...because there is ZERO mutuality. They are like jellyfish, floating around absorbing whatever happens to float nearby.

 

one thing I noticed about my npd - she was all about "compassion" and "caring".  I don't know how many times I heard "poor _favorite-vitcim_, she's had such a hard  life" from this woman.  she wanted to 'help her' - according to what made her feel good about herself.  so she could tell herself what a good person she was.

 

I can understand an inability to feel compassion for a person you have been traumatized by.

 

I'm not comfortable with dismissing 6% or so of humanity as basically inhuman. I do understand needing to keep your distance; that seems to be the only healthy thing to do in many cases.

 

In the context of this discussion, I think that if we are ever going to try to understand and address the development and possible prevention of and/or treatment for a disorder--any disorder--we have to start with compassion for the human beings affected by the disorder.

 

Of course that does not preclude compassion for people victimized by the disordered individual. The two are not mutually exclusive.

 

I apologize if my theorizing has been triggering for some people.

 

I do not call my npd person evil lightly.   when a person uses and demeans another to feed their own ego,  when a person "usurps the agency of another to feed their own ego and desire for aggrandizement - they are e.v.i.l.  this is a realization I came to only after a great deal of thought and prayer, when specific scriptures and passages leapt off the page at me in answer to prayerful questions, and coming to understand what the heck was going on.  it was the Spirit that led me to form extremely hard boundaries (one 15 minute phone call a week as long as she was polite.  otherwise, I said goodbye and hung up.  many were five minutes.) - I had never even heard of them and grew up in a family where they were non-existant.

she would have destroyed my spirit.

 

I am extremely religious. growing up, we were raised to think her opinion was the cat's meow.  I bought into everything she said and did to me, I deserved the carp she gave me.  the change started after I became religious and I was *strongly prompted* to seek professional counseling.  the counselor cut through extremely quickly that "I felt rejected by my grandmother becasue I loved my father." (whom she hated - I don't use that lightly either.) . . .I *REJECTED* that.  that couldn't possibly be true.  or so I thought.  This whole time I was praying I could get the help/understanding I needed.  I did exercises and it was as though a ball and chain had been cut away as I came to see, she really was that. bad.

 

your comments are telling me that you don't know nearly as much as you think about npd whereof you speak.

 

 

The person I believe is NPD is my XMIL.

 

 

Other weird things she did was have a conversation with me about how she was going to leave all of her money to an orphanage because she has always been interested in helping children ( not). I said sweetly, ' well. people have the right to leave their money to whomever they want.'

 

oh yes - she thought money would buy loyalty and adulation.  "you'd better treat me better or I'll cut you out of my will.".. . go. a.head.   next time - "you'd better treat me better or I'll cut you out of my will." .. . i though you already did.  boy, did that deflate her sails. 

 

what's really sad is my sister believed her and went off. the. deep.end.  after she died because she was supposed to get all her money.  she tore my mother's house apart looking for the will.  she was practically foaming at the mouth she was so irrational. she was raving mad.  then when the envelope was found - it contained my grandfather's will.  and everything was left to my mother.  I don't know if they had separate wills and npd had mixed them up, or only grandpa did and she thought it applied to her too. 

that only scratches the surface of the related insanity - but it did affect how we set up my mother's will and trust. 'cause I didn't want to deal with that sort of insanity again. 

 

eta: she had a strong sense of entitlement.  even to other people's money.  (even 50 years after the depression she complained her father  didn't give  her money- he didn't have it to give!  she had sisters who married well - and she complained they didn't give her lavish gifts)  so, money was just another tool in her arsenal.  but - I came to strongly see that a person's money was their own to choose what they did with it.  while she loved to hold it over our heads - I no longer cared.  it was her's, she could do what she wanted with it.  besides - no amount of money in the world was worth my self-respect.  I saw what that love of the promise of money did to my sister.

Edited February 4, 2017 by gardenmom5

[gardenmom5]

what should also be remembered about the damage an npd does . . .their victims have been groomed to be abused and think it's normal.  they've been groomed to not ever say 'no' - they are then more likely to be abused by other abusers who see them as an easy mark.

 

eta: edited for clarity

Edited February 4, 2017 by gardenmom5

[snowbeltmom]

Maybe an analogy would help:

If I were carrying some deadly and highly contagious disease, you could feel compasionate towards me while simultaneously recognizing the need to protect yourself and your family. You might determine that an appropriate boundary would be to quarantine me--or quarantine yourself away from me. That action has nothing to do with a lack of compassion--it is dictated by the need to protect yourself from unnecessary harm.

 

That is how I perceive establishing and maintaining boundaries around relationships with an NPD person--we have the right to protect ourselves from harm; we have an obligation to protect children from harm.

 

Compassion and precautions are not mutually exclusive.

 

Maize, I hope you don't feel that I am picking on you by quoting you so much.  I do feel some guilt about not feeling compassion,  and I am interested in reading your thoughts.

 

Regarding the bolded analogy:  I can understand where you are coming from in the analogy you wrote.  I also believe I would feel compassion in that case as well.  Let's put a small twist in your analogy: suppose this person was carrying a deadly and highly contagious disease, but shielded a select few from ever experiencing it.  Would you feel compassion toward this person?  I am struggling with this question because part of me really wants to feel compassion, but frankly, all I feel is anger.

 

[SparklyUnicorn]

Well, I have seen with BPD, and heard described with RAD, behaviors that tend towards harsh/hurtful with "close" people while the same person presents as nice and even charming to outsiders.

 

The fact that the behavior changes from person to person doesn't necessarily mean the individual is capable of choosing positive interactions with everyone.

 

I don't think we have a good handle on the actual causes of such things and the role of individual choice in the matter at all.

 

Well I was talking about anyone close to the person.  Not so much those they see from time to time.  The family member was perfectly fine in very small doses.  Most people can be tolerable in very small doses probably.

[Anne in CA]

The BPD person in my life can be super charming and engaging in small doses. Like Gardenmom mentioned she felt really entitled to every. single. thing. someone around her had. It was exhausting. She has driven my oldest away when my oldest figured out that her mother was never going to get enough. Never. There was never enough love or money, or time to fill the gaping hole. I think we have some bills that dd's birth mom ran up with her social security number recently. They caused dd not to be able to get a car loan, which was very hard for her driving a car that barely worked and trying to pick up odd jobs. Finally dd did get a car loan, not a real loan, one of the parents she babysits for sold her their old car (which is very nice) and is carrying the contract for her. So that loan is probably not building up her credit.... but she has the car and that's what matters. 

[Janeway]

Also, one thing to realize...most people with personality disorders are never diagnosed. Others like to think they know, this person has these signs and that person has those signs, but unless it is your own parent, child, or spouse, you likely do not really know.

 

Another thing...can people change BPD to the word Borderline PD? Because some other people on this thread have referenced Bipolar disorder and I am unsure which each person is talking about in some cases. 

 

Another thing is, even then a counselor diagnoses something, she is just going on what the person says to them, that is it. It is not like there is a blood test or x-ray that can show for sure one way or the other. All these personality disorders overlap a ton with just a few symptoms different. And the causes of these disorders are often thought of as very different. A couple of them are related to upbringing, a couple to genetics, the rest to a mix. But it all comes down to being just like ASD (Autism Spectrum Disorder). We don't really know what causes it and cannot cure it. Genetics obviously plays a role in the case of many many people.

[Tanaqui]

Ditto on never being sure if we mean borderline or bipolar.

[LMD]

what should also be remembered about the damage an npd does . . .their victims have been groomed to be abused and think it's normal. they've been groomed to not ever say 'no' - they are then more likely to be abused by other abusers who see them as an easy mark.

 

eta: edited for clarity

Yep. I have to double check scenarios with my dh because she totally lies about them and I just can't naturally catch those lies.

 

For example, she loves to tell everyone how I left her and moved out of home at 16 because my boyfriend (now dh) manipulated me.

The truth - I was 17 and graduated and dh's family took me in because she was moving away with another boyfriend!

 

I had totally forgotten about the reason I needed to move out, until one day dh looked at me quizzically and said 'uh, no, you moved out because she was moving in with x, remember?' She rewrites history and I swallow like a well trained pet.

 

 

Now, as for possible npd in children, I would like to think that with healthy relationships and boundaries being modelled and enforced then it won't go full blown, but I really don't know.

[Guest]

..

Edited February 6, 2017 by Heigh Ho

[snowbeltmom]

Compassion goes out the window when a person is angry. I think that is why a narcissist has no compassion, they are always angry about some injustice. Your compassion will return when your anger dissipates and you are safely away.

That's the thing: I am safely away, and I am no longer as angry as I used to be, but the dissipated anger has been replaced with indifference, not compassion. I have no compassion for this person considering her actions towards so many people. 

[Guest]

..

Edited February 6, 2017 by Heigh Ho

[Corraleno]

Maybe an analogy would help:

If I were carrying some deadly and highly contagious disease, you could feel compasionate towards me while simultaneously recognizing the need to protect yourself and your family. You might determine that an appropriate boundary would be to quarantine me--or quarantine yourself away from me. That action has nothing to do with a lack of compassion--it is dictated by the need to protect yourself from unnecessary harm.

 

That is how I perceive establishing and maintaining boundaries around relationships with an NPD person--we have the right to protect ourselves from harm; we have an obligation to protect children from harm.

 

Compassion and precautions are not mutually exclusive.

 

However, if the person with the deadly and highly contagious disease is going out of their way to purposely infect other people, to the extent of doing everything in their power to prevent potential victims from protecting themselves from it, then they lose my sympathy. 

 

I do not believe that people with NPD simply "cannot help themselves," in the same way that, say, a schizophrenic who hears voices cannot help it, or a bipolar person cannot help the mood swings. People with NPD may have an underlying illness, but they also have a degree of choice and agency. They choose the golden children and the scapegoats, they choose to continue to destroy people who beg them to stop. 

 

Where is the line between "illness" and choice? At what point do we start holding people accountable for the incredible amount of damage they do? 

[Guest]

..

Edited February 6, 2017 by Heigh Ho

[SparklyUnicorn]

That's the thing: I am safely away, and I am no longer as angry as I used to be, but the dissipated anger has been replaced with indifference, not compassion. I have no compassion for this person considering her actions towards so many people. 

 

Well, FWIW, I don't see the problem with that.  You feel how you feel. 

 

I think too it's about being disappointed by not being able to have any sort of relationship with the person.  Like why can't they  just stop being so stupid towards me.

 

The person in my family was my grandmother.  My mother died being upset she couldn't get approval from her.  I felt sad for my mother.  I don't think my grandmother actually disapproved. I think she was mentally ill. 

 

Whatta you gonna do?  Sometimes the best you can do is keep your distance to stay protected. 

[SparklyUnicorn]

Yes.there is choice. You can see them make the decision sometimes. They have decided who is inferior and who is not. They go after the designated prey, but they hold it in until its safe ( in their mind ). Some know what they are doing is wrong,because their parents attempted to socialize them. But when the parents are gone, that inhibitor is gone.

 

There may be a choice, but also maybe their thinking is not quite right so their choices aren't always quite right.

 

I don't mean they are disconnected from reality and hearing voices and being controlled by an in invisible force.  But if your thinking is disordered then your choices might be disordered.  How is that fully having a choice?  In the same sense of someone choosing who 100% is capable of making a decent choice?

 

Why bother calling it a disorder?  To me that's just saying it's not a disorder.  They know better.  Calling it a disorder is only making excuses for them.  You might believe that (and it might be true or it might not be).  But then this whole discussion isn't about how NPD develops, but how you think it's a sham. 

[maize]

There is so much we don't know, and the degree to which a person with NPD can choose is one of those things.

 

One possible scenario I can imagine (pure speculation) is one in which the brain of an NPD person must categorize the people around them as "good" or "bad"; these people, maybe perceived less as real people than as characters in a story being written, must all be assigned a category. The characters in the story are then treated in accordance with the category they are perceived to fall into. But it is possible that the NPD person has no control over the need to assign a category and little if any control over who gets assigned to which.

 

I just don't know.

 

I agree with Sadie that mental illness may be easier for us to accept when the person affected is clearly suffering. My husband's illness manifests in some ways as the opposite of NPD--instead of a grandiose sense of self importance and entitlement, he experiences a devastating sense of worthlessness and shame. That is something that is rather easy to pity from the outside. Grandiosity and entitlement are not. But if the person affected by a sense of worthlessness and shame is not responsible for that self perception, I have no reason to assume that a person affected by the reverse is responsible for their own distorted perception.

[Guest]

You cannot know this. You can create a narrative based on observable behaviours, but you cannot know they are freely making a choice independent of their disorder.

Sorry, ime the struggle of their mind against itself is sometimes visible and audible. Is the choice free? Its like chosing not to steal when starving. How long can they hold out before they must act? When they act, they know from their childhood both positive and negative ways to get satisfied, but they no longer have a superior around to force the positive way. They take the easy route when inhibition is removed.

 

Mine is afraid of death. It knows it chose to do wrong, and it has been.socialized to believe the omnipotent creator will review its life and put it in hell. If it did not know it made a choice, it would view its actions as accident, or life, and believe the creator would forgive as it would a child, placing it in heaven. This is one of the reasons for rewriting history. It knows ot chose to abuse vulnerable others.

 

 

You believe what you want. My experience is otherwise.

Edited February 4, 2017 by Heigh Ho

[Guest]

what the heck. No one is saying they are bad because of what they think about themselves, but what they consistently do to other people.

 

You can call it whatever you want.

[Corraleno]

Do we, in fact, know this ? To me, the degree of choice with a personality disorder would be mighty limited...NPD is a terrible disorder, and it has terrible effects on those who suffer from proximity to a person with NPD...but ya know, we often over estimate the amount of free will neurotypical people have, let alone those who personality is disordered. 

 

I am not in favor of putting mental illnesses into 'good' and 'bad' categories. Mental illness wreaks havoc however it manifests. NPD may have an 'unfairness' factor about it, in that the havoc is wreaked upon others most visibily, rather than upon the sufferer...unlike depression, where although it affects those around the depressed person, the person visibly suffers themselves.

 

And that's disturbing to me, actually...that a mental disorder where the person visibly suffers is more acceptable than one where they don't. Seems to suggest an underlying idea of punishment...that when one suffers enough, one is redeemed. 

 

I think that we lump a whole lot of very different issues into the category of "mental illness." Some, like clinical depression, anxiety disorders, bipolar disorder, schizophrenia, involve biochemical imbalances and are clearly "illnesses" in the same sense that diabetes is an illness.

 

But we really don't know very much about personality disorders; basically they are a collection of behaviors that we group together and say that these must be "disorders" because normal people shouldn't act like this. 

 

I know someone who could be the poster child for Histrionic Personality Disorder. I know enough about her childhood to know there was a lot of trauma; her mother was almost certainly full-blown NPD, and she was clearly the scapegoat. Although at times she has made my life quite difficult, I do have a great deal of compassion for her, because there is also a level of self-awareness there. She knows she's childish and dramatic and self-centered and needy, and sometimes she feels badly about it. She is capable of empathy, although often her volatile emotions and her neediness overwhelm everything else. But I don't really consider her to be "ill" — I think of her as someone who had a really awful childhood and never grew up. It's like she got stuck at the toddler stage and never progressed from there. So on the one hand I don't really consider it an illness, per se, but I also see that she suffers from this dysfunctional way of living, and I do have a lot of sympathy and compassion for her — while also being glad I live very far away

 

On the other hand, I know someone who checks virtually all the boxes for NPD, and I wouldn't say that this person is "suffering" at all. He has everything he thinks he deserves, he takes what he wants from people and then tosses them aside when they no longer suit his needs — or if they dare to question his version of reality or the way he continually rewrites history. If someone is smirky and triumphant about his ability to control people and to get everything he wants, why should we assume that he's really "suffering"?

[SparklyUnicorn]

At the end of the day it's all chemistry.  Is there biochemical and nebulous?  Like those actions and behaviors aren't influenced by biochemistry?  Everything is influenced by biochemistry. 

 

Just because we don't know the exact chemical or biological details doesn't mean it's something other than that.  What else is there?  Evil?  Invisible forces that aren't biochemical?  What forces would those be?

 

 

 

 

 

[SparklyUnicorn]

Actually, we know less than we think. The idea that depression is a biochemical disorder...well, even that is not a stable view. For example, we know now that antidepressants don't work by increasing serotonin. Many anxiety disorders are a disorder of cognition, not of brain chemistry. Or rather, it's chicken and egg....what comes first, the cognition (likely) or the effects of that cognition ?

 

I can't get behind the idea that people with personality disorders are just choosing to be that way. Sorry. I live with someone with some BPD traits and it is most definitely not a choice, and it most definitely is an illness that causes intense pain. That person is not choosing to have or exhibit those traits.

 

And yes,  my point about NPD is that the person with it doesn't appear to suffer. And that the appearance of suffering is what allows us to categorise some disorders as 'real' and some as 'not real'. 

 

what is the difference between cognition and chemistry?

 

How does cognition work?  Where is it located?  What is it made of?

[Corraleno]

There is so much we don't know, and the degree to which a person with NPD can choose is one of those things.

 

One possible scenario I can imagine (pure speculation) is one in which the brain of an NPD person must categorize the people around them as "good" or "bad"; these people, maybe perceived less as real people than as characters in a story being written, must all be assigned a category. The characters in the story are then treated in accordance with the category they are perceived to fall into. But it is possible that the NPD person has no control over the need to assign a category and little if any control over who gets assigned to which.

 

I just don't know.

 

I agree with Sadie that mental illness may be easier for us to accept when the person affected is clearly suffering. My husband's illness manifests in some ways as the opposite of NPD--instead of a grandiose sense of self importance and entitlement, he experiences a devastating sense of worthlessness and shame. That is something that is rather easy to pity from the outside. Grandiosity and entitlement are not. But if the person affected by a sense of worthlessness and shame is not responsible for that self perception, I have no reason to assume that a person affected by the reverse is responsible for their own distorted perception.

 

But at what point does someone cross over from just being an incredibly selfish, entitled asshole to having a personality disorder? Someone who is "merely" incredibly self-centered and egotistical is fully responsible for the damage they do, but take a tiny step further over some vaguely defined line and suddenly that person is no longer responsible, because he has an "illness"?

[Guest]

We know NPD is real because everyone ELSE suffers. Is anyone questioning the validity of NPD??? No. We are saying that people with NPD are bad mamba jambas, full-top. And you can feel sorry fr them or not. I don't really see what that changes, unless one thinks one is going to be THE person to stumble on a cure for NPD.

[SparklyUnicorn]

rhetorical questions....