How does NPD develop?

[Rosie_0801]

I've read that Schema Therapy can work on people with NPD. I think it is funny that one of my favourite narcissist's favourite words is schema. Maybe it'd work on him. I wish.

[gardenmom5]

About moms being blamed for autism, this actually relates back to what I said upthread.

 

When Kanner was first studying autism, he made the simple observation that the parents of the kids he was working with also showed many of the same traits as their kids. His conclusion was that the condition was somewhat inherited. (This is now the predominant explanation of this fact, and genetics backs it up.)

 

However, heritability was not in fashion as an explanation, so that same information was used to come up with a new conclusion - bad, distant parenting ("refrigerator mothers") made autistic kids. This is, of course, patently ridiculous.

 

It's taken a lot of time for research to recover from that era.

 

there are multiple causes for asd - *only* three are linked to genetics.  there are more than that that are NOT genetic.  one is linked to misdevelopment of the placenta.

 

eta: I'm homozygous for one of the genes that is linked to asd - all of my kids have *at least* one copy.  only one is diagnosed asd  (he's heterozygous). three have been tested - only one is also homozygous - never displayed any asd traits.    one is so social -   could give the pied piper lessons in getting other people to want to do things.

iow: that particular gene is estimated in occur in 50% of the population, with 16%? homozygous. there aren't that many asd people.  it is much more than just genetics.

Edited February 2, 2017 by gardenmom5

[G5052]

I've wondered this too. The people I know with personality disorders all seem to be highly sensitive in many ways.

 

One of my NPD relatives was diagnosed with post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD), which often includes physical and/or emotional sensativity. They were treated for that and did reasonably well for some time, but it came back with a vengeance along with NPD and other personality disorders.

 

I've been told that's fairly common, especially as those with PTSD age and if dementia is involved.

[lailasmum]

The one person I know with NPD had childhood trauma, he was abused by female family. My thinking is it's probably a combination of genetics and trauma. Maybe that particular trauma by that particular person pushed him to the NPD to protect himself. Maybe other brains would have come up with different coping solutions in that situation. He is very triggered with women in any kind of authority or who might be better than him at something. Even a life time later he seems like he's protecting himself.

Edited February 2, 2017 by lailasmum

[Scarlett]

Dr. Phil was on The View this morning talking about NPD....he read the list of traits from DSM -5.

 

I have read it many times.....but I always find it interesting. All of us have some of those traits. Few have all of those traits for an extended period of time which negatively affects our lives or relationships.

[Guest]

..

Edited February 6, 2017 by Heigh Ho

[Seasider]

Dr. Phil was on The View this morning talking about NPD....he read the list of traits from DSM -5.

 

I have read it many times.....but I always find it interesting. All of us have some of those traits. Few have all of those traits for an extended period of time which negatively affects our lives or relationships.

What, in general, did he have to say about it in terms of how many people actually have a diagnosable case? Is it widespread (and perhaps growing), or is a "real" case rarer than we think?

 

Just curious how pop culture/daytime television presents it.

[maize]

NPD=6.2% in the general population, higher in males than in females. (US National Institute of Health, 2008).

That is higher than I would have expected!

[SparklyUnicorn]

Dr. Phil was on The View this morning talking about NPD....he read the list of traits from DSM -5.

 

I have read it many times.....but I always find it interesting. All of us have some of those traits. Few have all of those traits for an extended period of time which negatively affects our lives or relationships.

 

I was just thinking, what leads a person to go to a therapist or doctor for a diagnosis?  Only thing I can think of is maybe some unrelated issue in their life, too many failed or strained relationships in their life, etc.  But are they really driving themselves crazy?  I'm rather nutters, but I don't really drive myself crazy.  LOL

 

But here is also the deal.  When you have a problem.  A specific situation.  And you want to talk to someone, you go there and they diagnose you.  Drives me bonkers really.  But there is no diagnosis (that I know of) that says "mother who has been driven mad by her child's weirdness".  Ya know?  So...you have trouble coping with it and they say maybe you have PTSD.  Good grief.  Not necessarily.  But they MUST put something down. 

[Seasider]

That is higher than I would have expected!

That's higher than I thought.

[Rosie_0801]

That is higher than I would have expected!

 

My last lawyer said 5% of divorcing couples end up in the Family Court and either one or both of them have personality disorders.

[Scarlett]

What, in general, did he have to say about it in terms of how many people actually have a diagnosable case? Is it widespread (and perhaps growing), or is a "real" case rarer than we think?

 

Just curious how pop culture/daytime television presents it.

Not much. He did indicate that every difficult person doesn't nessarily have it.

[G5052]

I was just thinking, what leads a person to go to a therapist or doctor for a diagnosis?  Only thing I can think of is maybe some unrelated issue in their life, too many failed or strained relationships in their life, etc.  But are they really driving themselves crazy?  I'm rather nutters, but I don't really drive myself crazy.  LOL

 

But here is also the deal.  When you have a problem.  A specific situation.  And you want to talk to someone, you go there and they diagnose you.  Drives me bonkers really.  But there is no diagnosis (that I know of) that says "mother who has been driven mad by her child's weirdness".  Ya know?  So...you have trouble coping with it and they say maybe you have PTSD.  Good grief.  Not necessarily.  But they MUST put something down. 

 

Believe it or not, the majority of people that therapists see do NOT have personality disorders like PTSD or NPD. Most people who see therapists are struggling with depression or anxiety, and/or are dealing with people who have personality disorders.

 

Many people with personality disorders believe that they don't have a problem and would never go to a therapist.

 

Competent therapists don't diagnose someone with a personality disorder unless there is a LOT of evidence. It isn't something they do lightly, believe me.

I'm sure that there are rogues out there, but you make it sound like this is done lightly. It isn't.

Edited February 2, 2017 by G5052

[gardenmom5]

Not much. He did indicate that every difficult person doesn't nessarily have it.

 

some people are just obnoxious, but the won't make you think you're crazy like a npd person will.  ;p

[maize]

I was just thinking, what leads a person to go to a therapist or doctor for a diagnosis? Only thing I can think of is maybe some unrelated issue in their life, too many failed or strained relationships in their life, etc. But are they really driving themselves crazy? I'm rather nutters, but I don't really drive myself crazy. LOL

 

But here is also the deal. When you have a problem. A specific situation. And you want to talk to someone, you go there and they diagnose you. Drives me bonkers really. But there is no diagnosis (that I know of) that says "mother who has been driven mad by her child's weirdness". Ya know? So...you have trouble coping with it and they say maybe you have PTSD. Good grief. Not necessarily. But they MUST put something down.

They have to have a diagnosis code in order to bill insurance.

[Tanaqui]

Many people with personality disorders believe that they don't have a problem and would never go to a therapist.

 

Or they carefully doctor-shop to get a therapist who will give them their desired diagnosis. It can be fun to have somebody listen to your every word without judgment, after all.

 

[SparklyUnicorn]

They have to have a diagnosis code in order to bill insurance.

 

Yeah, I know.  But I think this might lead to a diagnosis that isn't REALLY an appropriate diagnosis. 

They do the same thing with regular ole medical too though.  I've got a bunch of conditions based on one incident of something or other.  I also have conditions I was never tested for.  LOL  No joke. 

[lllll]

nm 

 

Edited February 4, 2017 by .qp_

[Janeway]

Or they doctor-shop, or go to a therapist, just long enough to pick up the lingo so they can us it on their victims.

That is exactly like my MIL. She is so evil. We cut her out of ours lives now. But, back when we had something to do with her, ugh..there is just so much!! I am angry just typing about it. Stuff like she will call and tear in to us and if we even respond with anything other than sorry, she will tell us something to the effect of "I can see you are not in a good mood right now so I will call back later when you are more fit to talk." For example "you stole my son!!! You are not even really married because the bible says kids are supposed to obey their parents and I did not give permission for my son to marry so your marriage is not valid! Your children are all b@stards! you are going to hell! MY SON WILL go on vacation with me without his girlfriend and her b@stards!!!!" (calling me and our children we have together that) and I will say "you need to speak to your son about this." And then she will try to put it back on me saying that she will hang up now because of my bad mood. OR..for example, for years she has tried to convince my husband that he is abused by me. Her examples..I limit who he can be with. Umm-yes-I do, this is true. She was trying to set him up with another woman and he did not want it so she says I am controlling and limiting his contact with others which is a big sign of abuse. 

 

UUAJJSHSHD$%^&*(^%$%^&*( I just cannot even speak about that nasty woman!!!

[Alicia64]

I grew up with two NPD "people."

 

Everything I've read is that there is no agreement on what causes NPD. The one thing I noticed is that I -- as the scapegoat -- didn't end up w/ NPD. But my sister -- who was the golden child -- definitely developed NPD.

 

We're only 22 months apart, but I have a very vague recollection of her being a sweetheart. I could be completely wrong, but I think the NPD started developing in her around the 4th grade and was fairly full blown by 13.

 

Maybe several different things cause it. I know my dad had a violent alcoholic father and a super involved mother. As in: my grandma was more into my father than either granddaughter. She was quite kind to us, but it was clear that my dad was her only real love.

 

I once read that a mean dad and an overly involved mom can set up a child for NPD. He's being called worthless on one hand and a God on the other.

 

Alley

[gardenmom5]

That is exactly like my MIL. She is so evil. We cut her out of ours lives now. But, back when we had something to do with her, ugh..there is just so much!! I am angry just typing about it. Stuff like she will call and tear in to us and if we even respond with anything other than sorry, she will tell us something to the effect of "I can see you are not in a good mood right now so I will call back later when you are more fit to talk." For example "you stole my son!!! You are not even really married because the bible says kids are supposed to obey their parents and I did not give permission for my son to marry so your marriage is not valid! Your children are all b@stards! you are going to hell! MY SON WILL go on vacation with me without his girlfriend and her b@stards!!!!" (calling me and our children we have together that) and I will say "you need to speak to your son about this." And then she will try to put it back on me saying that she will hang up now because of my bad mood. OR..for example, for years she has tried to convince my husband that he is abused by me. Her examples..I limit who he can be with. Umm-yes-I do, this is true. She was trying to set him up with another woman and he did not want it so she says I am controlling and limiting his contact with others which is a big sign of abuse. 

 

 

guess she missed genesis "a man shall leave father and mother and shall cleave unto his wife"....

I'm sorry, she probably wouldn't appreciate a bottle of percocet.  ;p

 

I grew up with two NPD "people."

 

Everything I've read is that there is no agreement on what causes NPD. The one thing I noticed is that I -- as the scapegoat -- didn't end up w/ NPD. But my sister -- who was the golden child -- definitely developed NPD.

 

We're only 22 months apart, but I have a very vague recollection of her being a sweetheart. I could be completely wrong, but I think the NPD started developing in her around the 4th grade and was fairly full blown by 13.

 

Maybe several different things cause it. I know my dad had a violent alcoholic father and a super involved mother. As in: my grandma was more into my father than either granddaughter. She was quite kind to us, but it was clear that my dad was her only real love.

 

I once read that a mean dad and an overly involved mom can set up a child for NPD. He's being called worthless on one hand and a God on the other.

 

Alley

 

there are some advantages to being the scapegoat . . . .

I was also the scapgoat - my brother the golden child. (and he's  . . npd.)  my sister was the favorite-victim.  npd (my grandmother) had to have someone to rescue . . .

my father was not mean - I adored him. he committed suicide just after my 12th birthday.  my mother . . . .was dysfunctional due to her own mother.

I take great satisfaction in having broken the pattern.   Most of my kids are adults (two completely established, two in college) - and they have a great time together.  I derive much joy in watching  them interact.

[lailasmum]

The guy I know ended up in contact with counselling/mental health services essentially because it was part of making his wife think she was crazy. I don't actually think he has really taken on board his npd or any responsibility, I don't think he's capable of it, but his family and friends are aware of it. It's really helping them to be able to unlock his behaviour and be less manipulated.

 

He is also involved in groups that are about communication where he's learned to spout the right thing and moved up to kind of guru/leader type status. People take advice from him without realising the disaster he causes. He can come across as charismatic and engaging. He'd make a great cult leader.

Edited February 3, 2017 by lailasmum

[EndOfOrdinary]

I wound up finally going to counselling because the NPD person in my life made me feel crazy. I was completely convinced for awhile that I was crazy and a danger to Ds. It was a complete head game. I am very fortunate to have stumbled on getting a job away from NPD individual with people who essentially laid out how bizarre the situation was. Without the outlet I do not even want to think how messed up kiddo and I would have been.

 

Therapist was very quiet about it at first. All he asked were questions about my personal boundaries and insecurities about expecting equality. We then worked on me understanding how to not quite be so entangled. I still do not think I handle it quite ideally when NPD person pushes me repeatedly. Part of me thinks to handle it in a calm way would make me emotionally unstable.

 

Rosie made a really great comment on a thread a while back about how people with real personality disorders go into court and look all put together and fabulous even though they should for all reason be losing it. Their lives are in shambles. However, those who are actually stable people look a hot mess because they are actually connected to the things they are watching fall apart. Our culture paints narcissism in such a romantic way, as if it is the pintacle of prized individualism.

[SparklyUnicorn]

Or they doctor-shop, or go to a therapist, just long enough to pick up the lingo so they can us it on their victims.

 

That's a disturbing thought!

[gardenmom5]

I wound up finally going to counselling because the NPD person in my life made me feel crazy. I was completely convinced for awhile that I was crazy and a danger to Ds. It was a complete head game. I am very fortunate to have stumbled on getting a job away from NPD individual with people who essentially laid out how bizarre the situation was. Without the outlet I do not even want to think how messed up kiddo and I would have been.

 

Therapist was very quiet about it at first. All he asked were questions about my personal boundaries and insecurities about expecting equality. We then worked on me understanding how to not quite be so entangled. I still do not think I handle it quite ideally when NPD person pushes me repeatedly. Part of me thinks to handle it in a calm way would make me emotionally unstable.

 

 

 

this is one of the more destructive facets of npd - the people involved with them start to think *they* are the crazy person.  there's a reason they call it gaslighting . . . . (re: gaslight, ingrid bergman, charles boyer . . .)

understanding pavlov and his dogs . . . . yep. the npd person is pavlov and we've been trained how to react to their chosen stimulus.

I used to think my npd person would  make a great interrogator ... 

 

I still struggle with going against the training on occasion.  (and she's been dead for 20 years.) though I think what produces the anxiety (which can lead to a panic attack) is she trained me to see things caddywampus/upside-down/sideways/inside-out - so when I look at things in a rational way, I'm honestly not sure what IS rational. the dichotomy is anxiety producing.

 

 

eta: this is why the scapegoat is the best position.  they're treated so poorly, they are most likely to see something is wrong/unfair and the most likely to escape.

Edited February 3, 2017 by gardenmom5

[G5052]

 

eta: this is why the scapegoat is the best position.  they're treated so poorly, they are most likely to see something is wrong/unfair and the most likely to escape.

 

I was the scapegoat. In high school my mother sent me to a therapist because I was so "rebellious." The reality was that I realized what was going on and started resisting. Then I saw another therapist in college that helped me put it all together finally.

 

You'd better believe that I talk to my teens about this sort of thing. 

[gardenmom5]

I was the scapegoat. In high school my mother sent me to a therapist because I was so "rebellious." The reality was that I realized what was going on and started resisting. Then I saw another therapist in college that helped me put it all together finally.

 

You'd better believe that I talk to my teens about this sort of thing. 

 

my first "what's wrong with this picture?" moment came when I was 13.  I'd come over to dog/housesit for her neighbor - but the neighbor was sick and didn't get a message to me to not come.  the next day, the husband came down to pay me.  I'm standing in the kitchen door talking to the husband who is trying to pay me, my npd in the back of the kitchen keeps telling me to "not accept the money because they didn't get to go."  ok, fine, whatever.  I honestly DO NOT remember if I was paid or not.  after he left and I turned back around into the kitchen she said (in that way she had) "well, he should have paid you."  what????  :confused1:   turns out this woman loved to play coy and hard to get. you had to "prove" you "were sincere/loved her" by begging her to allow you to do whatever for her.   and we were expected to read her mind - if we really loved her, we could.

 

I had to learn to take people at their word.  oh . . and when I took her (or her precious) at her word . .. . didn't go over too well.  c'est la vie :nopity: 

but it was certainly FUN for me :smilielol5: 

 

(actually, the very first I was 3/4 when my siblings got gifts because they were supposedly sick - and i got nothing.  I remember crying about it to my mother - "they're sick and you're not." ok . . so, I should want to be sick to get attention?)

[lllll]

nm 

 

Edited February 4, 2017 by .qp_

[maize]

So...(maybe this should be a spin off?) do you guys think it is possible to teach kids/young adults to recognize NPD so they don't tie themselves to it (as through marriage)?

 

The whole "charming when they want to be" bit seems to be the confounding factor--is it possible to see past the charm before you get in too far?

Edited February 3, 2017 by maize

[gardenmom5]

So...(maybe this should be a spin off?) do you guys think it is possible to teach kids/young adults to recognize NPD so they don't tie themselves to it (as through marriage)?

 

The whole "charming when they want to be" bit seems to be the confounding factor--is it possible to see past the charm before you get in too far?

 

I think it's possible to teach them what a manipulative person looks like.

it's also good to teach them to listen to their gut - even (maybe even especially) if it's contrary to their head, or logic, or what they think is polite, etc.

[Guest]

..

Edited February 6, 2017 by Heigh Ho

[gardenmom5]

To recognize, you need to see the mask slip. That seems to happen in times of stress. A longer engagement may help.

The two things that stand out to me are the mask slipping to reveal the sneer-smile of self satisfaction and superiority when a manipulative goal is accomplished, and the lack of emotion when death is close for a sibling or spouse or child.

 

no you don't.  if you listen to the gut it can throw up a flag - the question is are we willing to listen?  enough to make you step back and say.. wait a minute.

 

I know one, may or may not be full blown npd- but certainly a narcissistic prima dona.  I initially thought she was very charming, it wasn't  long before the hair on my neck was standing up.  long before I had anything I could say "this is a problem".

 

though the most surprising was a seemly reasonably ok guy who threw off no obvious flags, whom I barely knew in passing and with whom I'd hardly exchanged any words.  (he had just married an acquaintance, and she was very happy.)  we were having an extremely *innocuous* conversation (about sheep).  I had the utter conviction he was trying to snow me. it was quite strong.  it made no sense. at. all. after all, it was a perfectly innocuous subject on a fairly superficial level. he wasn't trying to sell me anything or get me to do anything - and there was nothing else he could gain from me.  less than six weeks later I learned he was in jail for fraud.  (I felt bad for my acquaintance - apparently, her brother had the same flags going off - but no evidence - and tried to stop the wedding.)

 

[G5052]

When mine were much younger and I was getting horrible phone messages from my mother that my kids could hear, I told them that grandma was very angry and mixed up. I emphasized that no one should talk to other people like that. Her messages were to the effect that she wished that she had aborted me, prayed every day that I would die in a car accident, and that I would ultimately burn in h*lll forever.

 

Shortly after that we got voicemail and ultimately blocked her calls completely. In time she would go other places and call, and I just told my kids that only mom and dad needed to answer the phone for awhile because grandma was being very evil. I also made sure that I got the mail and threw out the many letters she sent me without reading them. She ended up in the memory unit of a nursing home, so the phone calls ended completely at that point. She died 10 months later.

 

The second case blossomed when they were young teens, so I shared more with them about how wrong the individual was to treat me the way they have (and continue to do so). Thankfully the individual is both NPD and passive-aggressive, so there are virtually never phone calls coming from them. We generally communicate by email.

 

Now they're older teens, and as we've had to deal with NPD again, they know all about gaslighting, guilt trips, and manipulation. All along I've taught them (especially my daughter) that if someone's behavior doesn't seem right, it's perfectly fine to back away even if they lay a guilt trip on you. It's not right for you to allow them to work you over, ever. Good relationships are collaborative and respectful. There may be bumps along the way, but there's an overall sense of healthy love. I also have discussed that if you have to put up a "happy family" story to hide problems, you have a problem.

Edited February 3, 2017 by G5052

[Rosie_0801]

So...(maybe this should be a spin off?) do you guys think it is possible to teach kids/young adults to recognize NPD so they don't tie themselves to it (as through marriage)?

 

The whole "charming when they want to be" bit seems to be the confounding factor--is it possible to see past the charm before you get in too far?

 

I don't know. Sometimes it takes ten years to get to know a person properly. Overt narcissists are easier to pick. They will more easily trigger one's sense of 'too good to be true.' Covert narcissists are far harder to pick. They seem pretty quiet and modest, just a bit selfish and of course everyone's entitled to a few character flaws coz nobody's perfect...

 

I think you can teach kids/young people not to be the sort that NPD people want to hit on.

[maize]

I don't know. Sometimes it takes ten years to get to know a person properly. Overt narcissists are easier to pick. They will more easily trigger one's sense of 'too good to be true.' Covert narcissists are far harder to pick. They seem pretty quiet and modest, just a bit selfish and of course everyone's entitled to a few character flaws coz nobody's perfect...

 

I think you can teach kids/young people not to be the sort that NPD people want to hit on.

Could you elaborate on this last bit please? I'd like to hear any concrete ideas you have about how to go about this.

[Anne in CA]

I do think that you can teach your kids to recognize overt attempts at manipulation. I have seen the general pattern where an abuser who is not probably a NPD or a BPD can go for years without being abusive. I was shocked to find at a marriage seminar at our former church that many verbal abusers do not begin to abuse until all the kids are out of the house. So they go 25 years or even more before revealing the ugliest part of themselves. I don't think a NPD person or a BPD person can go much longer than six months without pulling something. In the case of the birth mother of my oldest child (dh's 1st wife who I said earlier in this thread I believe to be BPD) I have watched her reel in one sucker after another over the last 26 years dh and I have been together. She plays such a great victim who just needs a chance and people fall for it, but none of her benefactors make it past six months. At some point she reveals who she really is and people run. She appears to be so fun loving and intelligent that people give her the benefit of the doubt when they should not. DH was with her for three years all together and only the first five months was fun. But he kept trying to make things good and get her "back to herself". Except that the first part of any relationship with her is a complete act. 

[Rosie_0801]

Could you elaborate on this last bit please? I'd like to hear any concrete ideas you have about how to go about this.

 

I *think* it is about making sure personal boundaries are at least as sturdy as one's morals are.

 

Having put it into those words for the first time while I was in the shower ten minutes ago, I haven't had time to do a general survey. :p

 

I certainly got into the pickle I'm in because, for various reasons, my boundaries were and are weaker than my overdeveloped sense of morality.

[Rosie_0801]

I don't think a NPD person or a BPD person can go much longer than six months without pulling something. 

 

If they're good at it, though (NPD, I'm not familiar with BPD) whatever they are pulling will sound *reasonable.* Of course it will be better next year when they've finished uni, because living on student payments sucks. Of course it will be better next year because [some other plausible reason.]

[Guest]

I *think* it is about making sure personal boundaries are at least as sturdy as one's morals are.

 

.

 

 

If they're good at it, though (NPD, I'm not familiar with BPD) whatever they are pulling will sound *reasonable.* Of course it will be better next year when they've finished uni, because living on student payments sucks. Of course it will be better next year because [some other plausible reason.]

 

 

 They seem pretty quiet and modest, just a bit selfish and of course everyone's entitled to a few character flaws coz nobody's perfect...

 

I think you can teach kids/young people not to be the sort that NPD people want to hit on.

 

 

:::nodding vigorously:::

 

and I would add having zero expectations of them. If you expect, they will both disappoint you AND have an emotional "in" with you.

[G5052]

Yes, periodically someone with NPD will claim that their conscience is bothering them and swear that they'll change. You may get promises that they will never, ever do X, Y, or Z.

 

Don't believe it. Keep that wall up and don't let them draw you in emotionally.

[maize]

BPD person 'pulling something' = experiencing extreme distress and being unable to regulate that in a healthy way.

 

Honestly, peoples, don't stick BPD in with your family narcissist. If someone has BPD for an as yet unknown reason (but presumably not just 'I love being a pain in the rear') they need TREATMENT. Early as possible. Talking about them 'pulling stunts' is just plain unhelpful.

 

I know NPD has a whole lot of issues re person failing to recognise the need for treatment. But again, BPD is a different beast.

 

When you lump them in together (thank you Rosie for not doing so) it just adds to the stigma BPD sufferers face.

Agreed.

 

And frankly casual condemnation of NPD affected individuals is no more helpful. I don't personally buy into the idea that :those people: are less deserving of compassion than others suffering from a disorder of some kind.

 

It is tricky because, in the absence of a willingness to recognize the need for and seek treatment, there's not much that other people being impacted by the maladaptive and harmful behaviours can do except to focus on creating and maintaining healthy boundaries. I am convinced however that a person who has actual diagnosible NPD is themself a victim of a socially and emotionally devastating handicap. In my view, actual reciprocal, healthy relationships with others are a basic human need. A person with NPD never achieves that.

[EndOfOrdinary]

In my instance, I honestly needed help financially since I had gotten in over my head as a single parent. In swoops person who seems to have it all together. They are willing to help me. They don't think I am a total basketcase (I was such a trainwreck, everything was a mess). All the wonderful things that I needed to hear because I made a series of bad choices.

 

It was not until the child got older and I recognized the NPD individual slowing grooming them to be captive, that it hit me. At that point I started getting all my crap together as best I could and separating the kid. It was amazing how angry they got at me starting to get myself together.

 

I am now teaching Ds about how relationships (in any sense) need to have something for both parties. They need to be about each person putting in their portion with clear expectations, clear responsibilities, and clear goals. Being able go stand on your own and choose things in your life is extremely important. If you have no choice then you are not able to be reasonable and become prey.

[maize]

The question I asked at the beginning of this thread was originally sparked by one of my children behaving in an extremely emotionally manipulative way. Such behavior is not particularly uncommon from this particular child and stems from extreme anxiety and insecurity--they try to address their own discomfort by manipulating the people around them. I worry at times that these behaviors in childhood could be a prelude to full-blown NPD in adulthood (It goes well beyond the normal self-centered perspective that can be expected in children).

 

It is very clear at this point that the inappropriately manipulative behavior is coming from a place of profound discomfort and insecurity. That is not a way that anyone would choose to live.

Edited February 3, 2017 by maize

[EndOfOrdinary]

Is it possible to directly approach the situation from the standpoint of, "You seem unhappy. We need to talk about it." And then just not let the kid wiggle out of it? Since they are a child, is it possible to begin directly working on dismantling whatever is causing the unhappiness now?

 

I have noticed that for some, the trigger of the narcissistic behavior is that they are uncomfortable. Rather than fix the uncomfortable issue, or have to work on taking responsibility for how they got to being uncomfortable, they lash out at anyone they are around. I would like to believe that those are behaviors which can be lessened if someone is able to get through. A younger person seems more avaliable for some reason.

[Guest]

Agreed.

 

And frankly casual condemnation of NPD affected individuals is no more helpful. I don't personally buy into the idea that :those people: are less deserving of compassion than others suffering from a disorder of some kind.

 

It is tricky because, in the absence of a willingness to recognize the need for and seek treatment, there's not much that other people being impacted by the maladaptive and harmful behaviours can do except to focus on creating and maintaining healthy boundaries. I am convinced however that a person who has actual diagnosible NPD is themself a victim of a socially and emotionally devastating handicap. In my view, actual reciprocal, healthy relationships with others are a basic human need. A person with NPD never achieves that.

Pray tell how you act on compassion for an adult person who exploits normal human emotion at every turn.

 

For kids I imagine the proscriptions are similar to those for rad, no? Along with dealing with comorbidities?

 

Ulgh and protecting other kids. ((())) To you and anyone else dealing with this.

[gardenmom5]

I don't know. Sometimes it takes ten years to get to know a person properly. Overt narcissists are easier to pick. They will more easily trigger one's sense of 'too good to be true.' Covert narcissists are far harder to pick. They seem pretty quiet and modest, just a bit selfish and of course everyone's entitled to a few character flaws coz nobody's perfect...

 

I think you can teach kids/young people not to be the sort that NPD people want to hit on.

 

interesting you would say ten years to know a person properly.  dh used to think we were all just overly sensitive to my npd. - , he had a point, considering we'd been trained to have no boundaries with this person  and allow her to do whatever she wanted.   (his mother is also manipulative and controlling and makes people nuts - but nowhere near what my npd person did.)  she couldn't manipulate him, and he'd be excruciatingly polite and cheerful with her.  drove her absolutely nuts.   we'd been married about ten years (she tried to cause trouble from the first week we were married by suggesting ALL MEN have affairs.  and to think she didn't watch soap operas. . . .)

 

she did something, I was relating it to him as I was so fed up with her I was rolling my eyes - and it was so. typical. it finally registered with him.  he had this sort of confused look on his face as he said "I take it all back.  she's as bad as you say."

 

I have had many conversations with my oldest - and she's picked up a lot from those conversations.  2dd doesn't want to hear negatives about anyone.  I've had to tell her I have the right to object to a person's treatment of me even if she didn't have a problem with the person, and she needs to respect that.  she gets along with most people.  even people no one else gets along with.  though she does reach a point - she quit a job because the dept head was making her nuts.  she easily replaced it with a better job, and better people.

1ds and I have also had conversations about psychology and things to watch out for.  he had a gf who was very manipulative - he admits he saw the flags but kept ignoring them because he was afraid to acknowledge them.  he pays attention to flags now.

 

I do think that you can teach your kids to recognize overt attempts at manipulation. I have seen the general pattern where an abuser who is not probably a NPD or a BPD can go for years without being abusive. I was shocked to find  . .  that many verbal abusers do not begin to abuse until all the kids are out of the house. So they go 25 years or even more before revealing the ugliest part of themselves. I don't think a NPD person or a BPD person can go much longer than six months without pulling something.

that sounds like someone going off the deepend with empty nest syndrome.  abusers can't hide - a person is abusive or they aren't.  but something can trigger a change.

the npds I deal/t with couldn't go six weeks let alone six months without manipulating and controlling someone.  they live eat and breathe it, it's who they are.

 

Yes, periodically someone with NPD will claim that their conscience is bothering them and swear that they'll change. You may get promises that they will never, ever do X, Y, or Z.

 

Don't believe it. Keep that wall up and don't let them draw you in emotionally.

 

abusers will claim their conscience is bothering them (but they still have a conscience even if their self-control and ways of dealing with their own issues is lacking)

- npds I'm familiar with are perfect and have never done anything to feel guilty about.  if you confront them, even with irrefutable proof, about something they did - they will turn it around and you are either imagining things or guilty of horrible slander against them.  or - you need to just get over it.  I have *never* heard an npd admit remorse.  for anything.  it's always someone else's fault.

 

The question I asked at the beginning of this thread was originally sparked by one of my children behaving in an extremely emotionally manipulative way. Such behavior is not particularly uncommon from this particular child and stems from extreme anxiety and insecurity--they try to address their own discomfort by manipulating the people around them. I worry at times that these behaviors in childhood could be a prelude to full-blown NPD in adulthood (It goes well beyond the normal self-centered perspective that can be expected in children).

 

It is very clear at this point that the inappropriately manipulative behavior is coming from a place of profound discomfort and insecurity. That is not a way that anyone would choose to live.

 

you know where this is coming from - you can help this child learn more positive ways of dealing with those. get help, professional counseling, treatment for anxiety - whatever works for that child.  good luck.

[LMD]

interesting you would say ten years to know a person properly. dh used to think we were all just overly sensitive to my npd. - , he had a point, considering we'd been trained to have no boundaries with this person and allow her to do whatever she wanted. (his mother is also manipulative and controlling and makes people nuts - but nowhere near what my npd person did.) she couldn't manipulate him, and he'd be excruciatingly polite and cheerful with her. drove her absolutely nuts. we'd been married about ten years (she tried to cause trouble from the first week we were married by suggesting ALL MEN have affairs. and to think she didn't watch soap operas. . . .)

 

she did something, I was relating it to him as I was so fed up with her I was rolling my eyes - and it was so. typical. it finally registered with him. he had this sort of confused look on his face as he said "I take it all back. she's as bad as you say."

 

Yes! We had almost this exact scenario at 10 years into our marriage. Dh finally saw a tantrum first hand and he was utterly speechless.

Dh said that I won the crazy mother competition that day lol.

[Rosie_0801]

:::nodding vigorously:::

 

and I would add having zero expectations of them. If you expect, they will both disappoint you AND have an emotional "in" with you.

 

Oh yeah. 

 

That's why we don't catch the covert narcissists until we're pregnant with their children. We didn't *need* anything until then.

 

Then, of course, we bust our butts trying to keep marriages together for the sake of those children. 

[Rosie_0801]

Pray tell how you act on compassion for an adult person who exploits normal human emotion at every turn.

 

For kids I imagine the proscriptions are similar to those for rad, no? Along with dealing with comorbidities?

 

Ulgh and protecting other kids. ((())) To you and anyone else dealing with this.

 

Yeah, compassion for an NPD person is a big neon sign saying "You can exploit me!"

 

Sure I have compassion for the reasons my favourite narcissists became that way, but they're all plenty big enough to avoid trying to destroy people. It's not like they don't know what civilised behaviour is. They demand it for themselves.

 

I have also wondered whether NPD was a grown up version of RAD. 

 

 

Not that I can see into the future, Maize, but I don't think you're dealing with NPD. Controlling others to create feelings of safety isn't the same as being an emotional vampire.

[maize]

Children aren't diagnosed with NPD--but it must start somewhere. And I do assume that children would have a greater chance of responding to intervention than adults.

 

When I talk about compassion, I mean attitude. I don't mean behavior. When it comes to choosing your actions, you do what is necessary--allowing oneself to be victimized is both unnecessary and unhelpful.

 

Condemnation of a disorder though is senseless, as is condemnation of a person because they suffer from a disorder. Absolutely protect yourself, but that doesn't require condemnation; what it requires is acknowledgment of reality--it is not possible to have a truly mutual, healthy relationship with this person; different rules must be applied.

 

I apply the same principle to personality disorders that I do to other mental health disorders--stigmatization of either the disorder itself or of those affected by it does no one any good.

Edited February 4, 2017 by maize