Food Choices Documentary and Veganism vs. Protein

[MamaBearTeacher]

I am watching this and feeling mighty confused.  We usually eat meat once a day in  a small quantity i.e.. 1 hamburger or chicken or beef strips in a stir fry.  We also eat 1 meal with a big quantity of cheese.  We snack on yogurt and use a lot of butter.  This movie is pro-vegan and makes me want to make us vegan or at least reduce meat, increase veggies.  But ...

 

Here are my thoughts for my family:

 

DS 15 has reacted extremely badly mood-wise when given one meal of beans.  He loved the beans but he was in a very bad mood for a month afterwards.  This happened 3 times.  He had no gas but I wonder if it was just too much fiber.

 

DS 15 and 13 do not do too well with nut butters - DS13 gets reflux and DS15 gets a bad mood.

 

This movie says we don't need that much protein but I have trouble thinking and get lightheaded if I don't eat enough protein.  

 

I feel like I need that fat of dairy. 

 

DS15 does badly with pasta.  I think it is just too high carb or too high glycemic for him.  Pasta as a full meal makes me tired.

 

Fruit seems to make my kids hyper.

 

Our whole family is quite thin.  None of us have cholesterol problems.  I buy 4-12 avocados per week but they are not making us fatter.  

 

Meat and eggs have a lot of nutrients.  This movie (I am only at the beginning ) is ignoring that.

 

I am extremely prone to osteoporosis.  Maybe I need a lot of calcium..

 

Alternative protein products gross me out

 

I have heard of vegetarians getting sick or nutritionally deficient.

 

Pro-vegan:

 

I love vegetables and fruit  and using whole grains in food I cook myself.  I love salads, potatoes, tomatoes and fried kale.

 

This movie makes good points about how in the past it was people who had access to the most meat who had the most illness.

 

The movie is very convincing.

 

I hate cooking meat.

 

 

 

[BooksandBoys]

My middle guy would starve if he went vegan. He has food allergies/intolerances to all dairy (irrelevant to this discussion), all legumes (he gets very weepy and complains of pain for about a week after eating any beans, and his reactions to soy and peanuts are awful) and gluten. He needs his meat for protein.

 

I think different people have different protein needs. I also know different people tolerate carbohydrates in different ways. Since having my first child, if my carbs go above 100g a day, regardless of how many calories I'm eating, I gain weight, I'm exhausted, and I can't think clearly. I'd have a very hard time keeping a vegan diet low carb. I believe that low fat is bad for most people. Our brains need fat. That said, my body really doesn't like dairy, even though I love it, so I don't get my fat from dairy. Oh, we were vegetarian for a while. I was exhausted, cranky, sick, and gaining weight. My husband (diabetic) was even worse.

 

I'm firmly in the Paleo camp for the diet my family thrives on. I know there are families that thrive on vegan and feel so much healthier that way, but that won't work for us. You could certainly experiment with it to see if it's right for your family.

Edited January 31, 2017 by BooksandBoys

[HSmomof2]

I've been trying different things as well. I know I feel terrible on a low carb diet, even with high fat. I love yogurt and cheese, but they don't settle well with me anymore, so I only eat them in very small amounts and only occasionally. I think I've settled on a version of Mark Bittman's VB6. I'm only eating animal products at one meal per day. Lots more fruits/veg. Good carbs, and no processed junk. It's only been about 2 weeks, but I feel good. Energy levels are good, and I've lost 4 lbs.

 

 

ETA: I do believe the main reason I'm feeling better is because of cuttting out junk and eating real foods more than any other reason.

Edited January 31, 2017 by Bethany Grace

[Barb_]

It sounds as if your diet is working for you. Why make things unnecessarily difficult?

[abba12]

I think that different people have different dietary needs. I mean, think about it, over the many centuries when food transport was barely existent, plenty of people lived in places where very little vegetable or plant matter easily grew and they sustained themselves on meat, and plenty of people lived in places with easily grown produce but meat was harder to come by or reserved for the rich, and many people lived in places with plenty of produce and animals, but no significant room for grain crops due to trees and growth around them. I think it's natural perhaps different bodies need different things and there's no one size fits all solution, I think there's a genetic component to it.

 

For OUR family, we don't do well on grains. Bread leaves us unwell, pasta leaves us hungry and cranky, rice leave us hungry or bloated depending on if we use white or brown. So I think the pro-meat and the pro-vegans are right, I just disagree they should be cutting each other out, instead I think they both should be cutting carbs out! It what annoyed me about the show of vegetables I watched recently, their big answer was to cut animal products, not to cut bread or rice or pasta. And they refused to acknowledge the health benefits of meat, even in their attempts to replace it with vegetables. 

 

So for US, we are almost carb-free now, we eat a lot of the vegan replacement stuff, things like nuts and seeds and beans, but for us they replace grains not meat, we also eat a lot of meat and fats. There's not two major groups here, there's three. 

 

But, for other people, our diet would be a nightmare. I know people who feel unwell eating too much protein. And you mention issues with too much fibre. I say this attempt to find a single solution is terrible. Find what works for your family. If there's a problem, fix it. Removing carbs fixed problems for us. But we also aren't militant about it (Especially when it comes to deserts! There's a pie waiting for me in the kitchen! Some bloating is totally worth the pie! lol)

[fraidycat]

The thing with any and all documentaries is that the whole point of them is to convince the watcher of a certain viewpoint. If they don't, it's a crappy documentary.

 

You can find many more documentaries about many other ways to eat/live and most will be just as convincing but promoting the exact opposite viewpoint.

 

Correlation =/= causation. What ELSE did those "access to meat" people also have access too? What data did they use to back up their assertation that these people were more sickly? The China Study? ...has been thoroughly debunked, FYI.

 

Don't change your whole way of eating based on one documentary. Watch the "other side" too. Read about veganism, then read about primal/paleo. Read about the mediterranean diet. Read about the Inuit people of the far frozen north surviving and thriving almost exclusively on animal meat/fat. Read widely before you make any decisions about what you want to eat.

 

Then, experiment. Listen to your body.

 

From:

 

Someone who has been there. Standard American Diet, to veganism, to Primal with variations in between. I settled on what works for me, which is not being religious about any of the above. I eat grain free, and 95% of my veggies must be cooked for my digestive system to handle them. But, I'm not necessarily low carb, I still consume some sugar, etc.

Edited January 31, 2017 by fraidycat

[Liz CA]

It sounds like your family is doing fine on the food they are eating. If there are no allergies or other health problems, don't fix what ain't broken.

 

The movie is cleverly designed to convince people of something (I haven't seen it) but you can probably find a movie that will convince you that the way you are eating is superior.

 

Bottom line is, gauge the health & wellbeing of your family and if you feel changes need to be made, make them but I would not make any changes for the sake of change and the purposeful packaging of a movie.

Edited January 31, 2017 by Liz CA

[Katy]

Don't change your diet.  Veganism is usually mostly about not hurting animals; it's not as much about health.  Vegans don't live longer than meat eaters.  They actually die sooner of neurological problems.  Veganism does have an advantage when it comes to heart disease, but it doesn't sound like you guys are at high risk for that anyway.  It does sound like there might be an undiagnosed allergy to legumes with at least a couple of your children.  Stop watching the propaganda and go back to your lives.

[SparklyUnicorn]

I could recommend several videos that will leave you believing just the opposite.

I agree don't change what isn't broken.  Just walk away.  You'll drive yourself nuts.  BTDT

 

 

Edited January 31, 2017 by SparklyUnicorn

[poppy]

Sounds like you don't want to be vegan, so, don't. You'll have plenty of people (some with dancing bacon siggies :laugh: ) tell you it's absolutely smartest to eat a meat-based diet.

 

But if you want to try it, don't just eat your normal diet minus animal products.  That will fail for anyone. You have to start from a different place  Vegans eat things like sprouted grains, nuts and nut butters, coconut milk, nutritional yeast, hummus, almond milk, chickpeas, farro, quinoa,.......... There are books that will help you get there.

[Pawz4me]

Regarding osteoporosis -- You might want to do some research on that. I believe that quite a few studies have concluded that the highest incidence is in countries and regions that have the highest intake of animal proteins and that the lowest incidence occurs in countries with more vegetarian diets. Of course there are almost always contradicting studies. But I've yet to see anything that convinces me a diet exceptionally high in animal protein is particularly healthy over the long term. For me moderation and listening to my own body makes the most sense. I know we can't really "listen" for things like osteoporosis, but we definitely can "listen" for how certain foods make us feel, how our GI system reacts, etc. My body tells me it does NOT do well with too many animal products.

[SparklyUnicorn]

Sounds like you don't want to be vegan, so, don't. You'll have plenty of people (some with dancing bacon siggies :laugh: ) tell you it's absolutely smartest to eat a meat-based diet.

 

But if you want to try it, don't just eat your normal diet minus animal products.  That will fail for anyone. You have to start from a different place  Vegans eat things like sprouted grains, nuts and nut butters, coconut milk, nutritional yeast, hummus, almond milk, chickpeas, farro, quinoa,.......... There are books that will help you get there.

 

Definitely!  On the second point.  It's not much different than jumping into low carb by eating nothing but meat.  Noooo you'll die of boredom and be missing out on other nutrients you need.

[Ann.without.an.e]

I've been trying different things as well. I know I feel terrible on a low carb diet, even with high fat. 

 

ETA: I do believe the main reason I'm feeling better is because of cuttting out junk and eating real foods more than any other reason.

 

 

I am so happy to hear someone say this!  I always feel awful on a high fat/low carb diet even though I believe all of the science that says it is good for losing fat, I just feel so terrible.

[Ann.without.an.e]

I am watching this and feeling mighty confused.  We usually eat meat once a day in  a small quantity i.e.. 1 hamburger or chicken or beef strips in a stir fry.  We also eat 1 meal with a big quantity of cheese.  We snack on yogurt and use a lot of butter.  This movie is pro-vegan and makes me want to make us vegan or at least reduce meat, increase veggies.  But ...

 

 

 

 

Just listening in, I am in a similar struggle right now.  My only thought is that I know I need more meat/protein to balance my diet if I eat sugar but if I cut sugar, my protein needs seem to be a lot less.  That is really my only good thought.  

[abba12]

Regarding osteoporosis -- You might want to do some research on that. I believe that quite a few studies have concluded that the highest incidence is in countries and regions that have the highest intake of animal proteins and that the lowest incidence occurs in countries with more vegetarian diets. Of course there are almost always contradicting studies. But I've yet to see anything that convinces me a diet exceptionally high in animal protein is particularly healthy over the long term. For me moderation and listening to my own body makes the most sense. I know we can't really "listen" for things like osteoporosis, but we definitely can "listen" for how certain foods make us feel, how our GI system reacts, etc. My body tells me it does NOT do well with too many animal products.

Oh yes, I forgot this point. I havent been able to drink milk or eat much dairy since I was a teen. Not truly lactose intollerant but it makes me ill. Despite growing multiple babies the doctor tested my calcium levels recently and say theyre great! Lots of great veggie sources for calcium. I eat either broccoli or bok choy/pak choy most days. I dont even have the typical vegan sources like almond milk or anything, just veg has been enough for me even in pregnancy. (Though not for everyone, and magnesium is important imo too)

[MamaBearTeacher]

Regarding osteoporosis -- You might want to do some research on that. I believe that quite a few studies have concluded that the highest incidence is in countries and regions that have the highest intake of animal proteins and that the lowest incidence occurs in countries with more vegetarian diets. Of course there are almost always contradicting studies. But I've yet to see anything that convinces me a diet exceptionally high in animal protein is particularly healthy over the long term. For me moderation and listening to my own body makes the most sense. I know we can't really "listen" for things like osteoporosis, but we definitely can "listen" for how certain foods make us feel, how our GI system reacts, etc. My body tells me it does NOT do well with too many animal products.

 

Yes, I've read that research too.  More confusion.  Dairy has never bothered me.

[MamaBearTeacher]

Here's the thing.  This diet is not great for our family.  It's okay for me but I would rather be vegetarian because I don't like cooking meat and don't love meat.  I basically eat it because I think I need protein.  

 

My oldest sons are doing awful.  One has constipation despite lots of veggies and water.  Lately he also gets some diarrhea.  DS2 has acid reflux.  They have special needs and are severely disabled.  They were not born this way but developed his later in life all of a sudden.  Doctors recommended GFCF and a bunch of elimination diets that ended up being high meat which we did religiously for a few years.  It put them in a bad mood but so we moderated and their moods improved at least some of the time.  They are both teens and growing and somewhat thin.  The whole story is complicated.  Herein lies my frustration and my doubt.  My oldest has bad pica and eats lots of nonfood items.  My second son steals leafy vegetables because he loves them so much and when we go out in nature he eats all the plants!

[Annie G]

Could the pica be contributing to your oldest son's constipation and diarrhea?  The high quantity of cheese might be contributing to the constipation.  You said he eats lots of veggies- what veggies does he eat?

 

What happens if your younger son is allowed all the leafy veggies he wants? Any bad side effects? 

 

When you mentioned your oldest doesn't tolerate beans- did you mean that he didn't tolerate a serving of beans or a meal of beans?  It's tough to eliminate all beans- they are so versatile! 

 

Vegan doesn't seem to be a viable solution for your family.  But increasing veggies is probably a good idea, along with cutting back on the dairy a little.

 

As for hating to cook meat, can you switch to some dishes that can be eaten for more than one meal? Like meatloaf- you make it once but can get two meals out of it. Or roasting chicken and saving the leftovers for another day.  Even things like making taco meat- make a double batch and freeze half for another meal.  

 

[Moonhawk]

My DH and I are totally different body types, so while we have a certain standard of food, we are constantly doing a balancing act to have both of us happy (plus kids) with what we are eating.

 

We have a 95% whole food household, with a few staples that I am not up to getting rid of just yet. 

 

My husband needs vegetables, all day, all the time. He prefers raw, not cooked. He will eat a little fruit, and likes nuts for afternoons. Avocados are also on his go-to list. At 10pm, if he says he feels like a snack, there is a 50% chance he is going for a salad. He likes meat and needs it at least every other day, but in variety, and can only handle "heavy" meals once or twice a week. He likes pasta, but can only have it once a week otherwise he feels overly carb'd. He hardly eats or wants bread, etc. He could probably go vegetarian/vegan and sigh for meat, but survive. 

 

I like veggies, but I eat a serving and am done.  I want meat, in all its glorious ways. Fish is okay, but it isn't really an alternative to steak.  Going vegan/vegetarian for me would be a death knell. I love breads and carbs (though I think this is more of an upbringing thing/addiction than what is naturally what my body should have; when I outlaw carbs I immediately slim down and have more energy).  I like cheese, dairy, and tend to go to high fat options naturally. 

 

TLDR; I think there are different needs.  I remember reading a book called The Genetic Key diet years ago which put more emphasis on body type/ancestry for what you should be eating. Our house is a melting pot which makes it difficult to figure out what everyone needs. I would try to stick to natural options as much as possible, but from that pool just do what is best for your family.  Stay away from foods that give bad reactions, have the fats/proteins that everyone seems to like readily available, and cook meat only in proportion to how much you hate cooking it, or find meat options that aren't as onerous to do. :)

 

eta: I hate CUTTING meat.  I have found buying the pre-sliced meat or pre-cubed meat makes my enjoyment of cooking go way up.  If I have to handle the meat before it goes into the pan, I avoid making it. I do it sometimes because sometimes the sales are just too good, but then dread the prep and cleanup afterward.

Edited January 31, 2017 by Moonhawk

[Liz CA]

Here's the thing.  This diet is not great for our family.  It's okay for me but I would rather be vegetarian because I don't like cooking meat and don't love meat.  I basically eat it because I think I need protein.  

 

My oldest sons are doing awful.  One has constipation despite lots of veggies and water.  Lately he also gets some diarrhea.  DS2 has acid reflux.  They have special needs and are severely disabled.  They were not born this way but developed his later in life all of a sudden.  Doctors recommended GFCF and a bunch of elimination diets that ended up being high meat which we did religiously for a few years.  It put them in a bad mood but so we moderated and their moods improved at least some of the time.  They are both teens and growing and somewhat thin.  The whole story is complicated.  Herein lies my frustration and my doubt.  My oldest has bad pica and eats lots of nonfood items.  My second son steals leafy vegetables because he loves them so much and when we go out in nature he eats all the plants!

 

Now I remember some of your previous posts regarding diet and your son.

Have doctors done an extensive mineral test on the son with pica? For some, if mineral balance is restored (likely by supplements) the pica diminishes. This does not happen in every case but may be worth trying.

Have you tried adding some fermented foods to get his digestion going? I am always recommending this because it works for me. Again, it may not work for everyone but can easily be tried and no harm would be done.

 

[eternalsummer]

I would also check for an iron deficiency with the pica.

 

We don't eat dairy at all (even as an ingredient in processed bread, for instance), or eggs, and we only eat humanely raised or wild meat/fish.  We do eat a lot of carbs.  We are all pretty healthy.

 

I have heard from various people, anecdotally, that giving up dairy makes a big difference in health and especially processing issues; this makes sense to me as we're really not designed to need dairy after infancy/early childhood.  So if I were you and trying to make a change to see if it helps, I'd give up dairy before meat and fish.

[samba]

I am so happy to hear someone say this!  I always feel awful on a high fat/low carb diet even though I believe all of the science that says it is good for losing fat, I just feel so terrible.

 

We tried a similar way of eating many years ago and I have never felt worse in my life. I developed several issues I'd never experienced before. Those same issue resolved themselves when I gave up the high fat/low carb eating. I now eat almost the exact opposite way (high carb/low fat vegan) and feel great. No digestive issues, no hunger, no weird health problems. And I agree with the ethics of veganism vs the animals-as-food industry.

 

My dh did not experience any of the negatives that I did with HFLC. He transitioned for ethical reasons but still occasionally consumes animal products.

[MSNative]

My DH and I are totally different body types, so while we have a certain standard of food, we are constantly doing a balancing act to have both of us happy (plus kids) with what we are eating.

 

We have a 95% whole food household, with a few staples that I am not up to getting rid of just yet.

 

My husband needs vegetables, all day, all the time. He prefers raw, not cooked. He will eat a little fruit, and likes nuts for afternoons. Avocados are also on his go-to list. At 10pm, if he says he feels like a snack, there is a 50% chance he is going for a salad. He likes meat and needs it at least every other day, but in variety, and can only handle "heavy" meals once or twice a week. He likes pasta, but can only have it once a week otherwise he feels overly carb'd. He hardly eats or wants bread, etc. He could probably go vegetarian/vegan and sigh for meat, but survive.

 

I like veggies, but I eat a serving and am done. I want meat, in all its glorious ways. Fish is okay, but it isn't really an alternative to steak. Going vegan/vegetarian for me would be a death knell. I love breads and carbs (though I think this is more of an upbringing thing/addiction than what is naturally what my body should have; when I outlaw carbs I immediately slim down and have more energy). I like cheese, dairy, and tend to go to high fat options naturally.

 

TLDR; I think there are different needs. I remember reading a book called The Genetic Key diet years ago which put more emphasis on body type/ancestry for what you should be eating. Our house is a melting pot which makes it difficult to figure out what everyone needs. I would try to stick to natural options as much as possible, but from that pool just do what is best for your family. Stay away from foods that give bad reactions, have the fats/proteins that everyone seems to like readily available, and cook meat only in proportion to how much you hate cooking it, or find meat options that aren't as onerous to do. :)

 

eta: I hate CUTTING meat. I have found buying the pre-sliced meat or pre-cubed meat makes my enjoyment of cooking go way up. If I have to handle the meat before it goes into the pan, I avoid making it. I do it sometimes because sometimes the sales are just too good, but then dread the prep and cleanup afterward.

Our families could totally cook together. I eat like your husband and you eat like mine. And I make my husband cut any meat cause it weirds me out too.

 

I struggle to get enough protein. I like meat well enough but veggies are my go to. I teach fitness and am pretty active so I've had to resort to protein shakes. There are lots of options including vegan ones. Ensure is another option to get more nutrients. Thought I'd share for anyone else who struggles to get enough protein. I know it's totally obvious but I didn't think of it for years cause I didn't want to eat processed foods.

[MamaBearTeacher]

Could the pica be contributing to your oldest son's constipation and diarrhea?  

Maybe a bit but the constipation is there all the time.

 

The high quantity of cheese might be contributing to the constipation.  You said he eats lots of veggies- what veggies does he eat?

A whole variety, really anything I give him.  Are there some that are less constipating?

 

What happens if your younger son is allowed all the leafy veggies he wants? Any bad side effects? No bad side effects.  He really eats all the leafy greens I buy, except for what is reserved for other family members.

 

When you mentioned your oldest doesn't tolerate beans- did you mean that he didn't tolerate a serving of beans or a meal of beans?  It's tough to eliminate all beans- they are so versatile! 

 

He does not tolerate black beans and chick peas.  We eat a lot of peas and green beans and he has no trouble with those.

 

 

[Annie G]

 

Could the pica be contributing to your oldest son's constipation and diarrhea?  

Maybe a bit but the constipation is there all the time.

 

The high quantity of cheese might be contributing to the constipation.  You said he eats lots of veggies- what veggies does he eat?

A whole variety, really anything I give him.  Are there some that are less constipating? I'd probably try to estimate how much fiber he's getting and track how much cheese and other dairy. If he's eating too much dairy it might be a main contributor to the constipation. Some folks do fine with dairy but if you're eating a meal a day that's cheese heavy (you mentioned that in the op) it might be too much. 

 

What happens if your younger son is allowed all the leafy veggies he wants? Any bad side effects? No bad side effects.  He really eats all the leafy greens I buy, except for what is reserved for other family members. Have you tried providing him more leafy greens to satisfy his need and perhaps dissuade him from eating things in the wild? Ds used to like taking a bag of baby washed spinach as a snack to munch on when we were out of the house.  

 

When you mentioned your oldest doesn't tolerate beans- did you mean that he didn't tolerate a serving of beans or a meal of beans?  It's tough to eliminate all beans- they are so versatile! 

 

He does not tolerate black beans and chick peas.  We eat a lot of peas and green beans and he has no trouble with those.

I was thinking more like pinto beans, butter beans, etc. By peas do you mean things like black eyed peas or zipper peas?  I love green beans but they don't have as much fiber as pintos or other beans, if you are talking like a half cup serving.  

 

Do the boys get regular exercise? Exercise can help with constipation.  

 

I guess I'm kind of pushing the issue because chronic constipation is not something to ignore.  If you feel he's getting enough fiber, water, and not overdoing the cheese, it might be time to visit a doctor.  Hope you can figure it out- I'm sure your ds would feel better if he didn't have to deal with that. 

:grouphug:

 

[Peaceful Isle]

I eat gluten free vegan. I don't do it for the animal rites part of it. I just feel better when I am on this diet.

 

I went on Atkins last year, lost weight, and felt terrible the whole time. Yes, I ate enough fat, protein etc.. I just hated it. I don't like meat and veggies, and do so much better with fruits , whole grains( gluten free), nuts, and only a few veggies. I have even lost weight this way. I love to make dairy free smoothies, gluten free peanut butter cookies, potatoes , corn , rice, beans, and so on. I feel so good eating this way.

 

I feel every body is different. Eat what makes you feel the best.