Article in The Atlantic comes down hard on AP classes

[snowbeltmom]

AP World History was what Basis Independent said they use as an AP exam training ground (get your feet wet) for 8th graders during the open house event we went to. Plansrme's daughter took it in 7th grade. http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/469861-ap-tests-taken-in-8th-grade/?p=4919097

 

AP Human Geography is supposed to be suitable for 9th graders.

"Top Ten Ideas for Teaching APHG to Ninth graders" http://www.ncge.org/preparing-9th-graders-for-the-exam

 

AP Environmental Science is another commonly offered AP to 9th grade public school students. No prerequisites.

I wonder how many colleges consider these classes college level and award college credit for them? 

 

I was looking at the  AP credit policies for the school my senior will attend next year.  Quite a few AP courses listed on the policy guide are not awarded any credit by this college.  AP World, Human Geo, and Environmental Science are not even listed on the policy guide.

 

 

 

[LisaKinVA]

Overseas, APs are really our most affordable option, as DE would cost roughly $600 (plus books), plus transportation, and since they are almost all evening courses, conflict with most school activities as well.

 

We've tried to be selective with APs (although, it may not seem that way).  There are reasons for the ones that have been chosen (based upon prospective schools).

 

DS wants to go an engineering major, but have a double minor.  the APs will both help prepare him for the more advanced coursework of the engineering program, as well as make some space for an extra minor.

 

DD wants to double major in math/science, as well as an education certificate and German minor.  The APs will allow her to comfortably complete the coursework in no more than 5 years.  If she elects to DE for some additional GE requirements, she will finish in 4.  She has to make that decision by this August (because the DE courses will not transfer to another school).  

[madteaparty]

I wonder how many colleges consider these classes college level and award college credit for them?

 

I was looking at the AP credit policies for the school my senior will attend next year. Quite a few AP courses listed on the policy guide are not awarded any credit by this college. AP World, Human Geo, and Environmental Science are not even listed on the policy guide.

But I don't think anyone is doing APs for credit.

We have to do them because they are an explicit admission requirement

[MinivanMom]

I wonder how many colleges consider these classes college level and award college credit for them? 

 

I was looking at the  AP credit policies for the school my senior will attend next year.  Quite a few AP courses listed on the policy guide are not awarded any credit by this college.  AP World, Human Geo, and Environmental Science are not even listed on the policy guide.

 

Quite a few state schools and lower-tier private schools award college credit for them, so they can translate into money saved for middle-class families. Or those AP credits can mean time for a double major, a second minor, study-abroad, etc.

 

And for public school students, AP courses are generally the most challenging courses available to them in school. So it makes sense for college-bound kids to take AP classes regardless of whether they will receive credit for them.

[Farrar]

AP World History was what Basis Independent said they use as an AP exam training ground (get your feet wet) for 8th graders during the open house event we went to. Plansrme's daughter took it in 7th grade. http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/469861-ap-tests-taken-in-8th-grade/?p=4919097

 

AP Human Geography is supposed to be suitable for 9th graders.

"Top Ten Ideas for Teaching APHG to Ninth graders" http://www.ncge.org/preparing-9th-graders-for-the-exam

 

AP Environmental Science is another commonly offered AP to 9th grade public school students. No prerequisites.

 

That's sort of my point though. Twenty or thirty years ago, the AP courses that I was taking and then seeing in the classroom were really meaty and difficult work. Not to say that they all lived up to "college courses" but they weren't work that most honors track 9th graders were ready for, just like most honors track 9th graders aren't ready for actual college level work. Except now they're actually *planning* courses for 9th graders. It's like admitting that they're nowhere near as good as actual college courses. It just serves to emphasize that they're not as good.

 

Or maybe college level work has come down in quality. That's certainly possible too.

 

This is not to say that I don't get why people do them. We'll probably do some. It's a cheap way to achieve credits. I knocked a year off my college education with AP credits back in the day. 

[Arcadia]

I wonder how many colleges consider these classes college level and award college credit for them?

Those three AP exams could still count towards some of the AP Scholar Award if scores are 3 and above. That is why some public and private schools encourage students to start AP exams in 9th grade. There is no monetary award for AP Scholar Award but still a booster for school kids who may not have any awards to pen in for college app.

 

AP Scholar Award link http://apcentral.collegeboard.com/apc/public/score_reports_data/awards/232609.html

 

When we went to high school open houses, the guidance counselors do not even mention college credit. It was just take the AP course if you like that subject or the subject is easy for you, because it improves the weighted GPA.

[snowbeltmom]

But I don't think anyone is doing APs for credit.

We have to do them because they are an explicit admission requirement

:iagree:

I didn't do a good job of making my point in my last post.  AP used to mean that a class was college level, yet now we all wonder how classrooms of middle school students and 9th grade students are ready for college level work.  I think the answer to that question is that some of these AP courses are not actually college level courses, and that is how younger high school students are able to succeed in them.

 

I think for traditionally schooled students, especially, more APs translates into a more rigorous transcript, and as someone reminded me earlier in this thread, a higher gpa.  As homeschoolers, I don't think it is necessary to take many of these "lower level" AP classes if the reason is solely to satisfy the "rigor aspect" for a transcript.  

 

If a homeschooled student has a love of history, then AP World History may be a good course to take, but if the sole reason to take the class would be to impress the adcom with the AP class, the student's time is probably better spent doing something else.  

 

ETA: Farrar did a better job of articulating my point.

Edited January 26, 2017 by snowbeltmom

[mirabillis]

We have to do them because they are an explicit admission requirement

 

 

Exactly... to show academic achievement - and for us California residents, it is a "necessity to be competitive imho" and will help us to fulfill a-g requirements for UC/CSU schools.

 

I've found the experience to be a good one so far, for my son, only in his 9th grade year. And since we need to do them anyway, we are going for National AP Scholar by end of junior year, if we can achieve all 4-5's on his exams. (I saw we, b/c I'm still such an integral part in his education. LOL! It feels like a joint effort.) And if we knock off any college credits in the process, that will just be gravy. I AP'ed out of nearly my entire freshman year of basic credits - and it was fantastic. If that still is a possibility, it's a good one too.

 

**edited to address quark's remarks. for us, it's a necessity as we've chosen that route to fulfill a-g. there are many other ways to do so

Edited January 26, 2017 by mirabillis

[SunshineMom]

I found it valuable to know that a student may have a hard transition stepping into a spring term class (102 for example) after completing an AP introduction class (101) especially if that AP class was taken years prior.  

[regentrude]

 AP used to mean that a class was college level, yet now we all wonder how classrooms of middle school students and 9th grade students are ready for college level work.  I think the answer to that question is that some of these AP courses are not actually college level courses, and that is how younger high school students are able to succeed in them.

 

Honestly, it makes not much sense to talk about "college level courses" as if there were a unified standard. College courses at different institutions vary so tremendously in scope and depth that the very term "college level course" means absolutely nothing.

[madteaparty]

:iagree:

I didn't do a good job of making my point in my last post. AP used to mean that a class was college level, yet now we all wonder how classrooms of middle school students and 9th grade students are ready for college level work. I think the answer to that question is that some of these AP courses are not actually college level courses, and that is how younger high school students are able to succeed in them.

 

I think for traditionally schooled students, especially, more APs translates into a more rigorous transcript, and as someone reminded me earlier in this thread, a higher gpa. As homeschoolers, I don't think it is necessary to take many of these "lower level" AP classes if the reason is solely to satisfy the "rigor aspect" for a transcript.

 

If a homeschooled student has a love of history, then AP World History may be a good course to take, but if the sole reason to take the class would be to impress the adcom with the AP class, the student's time is probably better spent doing something else.

 

ETA: Farrar did a better job of articulating my point.

To further agree with you and Farrar, this is not just watered-down AP. college-level" means such very different things these days too. My college class is maybe your high school level class.

[madteaparty]

nm

Edited January 26, 2017 by madteaparty

[SunshineMom]

In our area, we have a state funded Running Start program which pays for juniors and seniors to take college courses at our local community college.  In other parts of the state, students can take classes at the universities.

 

I worry about the teaching differences between our community college and the state university my dd plans to attend because the Running Start program here only provides funds for classes taken at the community college, not the preferred state university satellite in our town.

 

My concern is that the community college caters to these Running Start students with watered down college classes.

[quark]

Exactly... to show academic achievement - and for us California residents, it is a necessity to fulfill a-g requirements for UC/CSU schools.

 

I'm not strongly for or against APs personally since I know they are a necessary evil or necessary joy for some but just for those interested in UC/CSU with younger kids reading this thread, the SAT/ACT and SAT subject tests will fulfill a-g requirements too as will DE classes. There are also cases of people taking the 4x4 or 5x4 core classes and just having a higher level of a class (e.g. English IV) validate a lower one (e.g. English I-III).

 

Maybe a qualifier like "necessity to be competitive for UCB/ UCLA" might be more accurate in this case.

 

Edited January 26, 2017 by quark

[Guest]

The way the public school admin explains it here is that college does not mean a four year U. It means CC, And it starts with any course not required for an Advanced Regents Diploma. Precalc is a college course, as is FL3.

 

9th graders taking AP level did not waste three years of K4-8 in review.

[Chanley]

We are utilizing AP classes and exams as a way of proving ability and a desire for challenge. They will be combined with DE courses as well. But I am not expecting college credit for any of the exams. I also know the reputation of our small, local, community college and many of the departments are not preparing students for university level work when they transfer. For example our local 2 year school where my kids will take DE classes has a terrible science department. We are using AP chem to work around a lackluster DE experience. However, a few of their social science teachers are really great, my kids will take those classes to explore those fields. 

[quark]

For example our local 2 year school where my kids will take DE classes has a terrible science department. We are using AP chem to work around a lackluster DE experience. However, a few of their social science teachers are really great, my kids will take those classes to explore those fields. 

 

Same reason DS is taking AP Chemistry instead of DE-ing (our initial preference) for a chemistry lab science.

 

Our CC is interesting in that the physics department seems relatively high level but math, chemistry and biology are highly debatable in standards/ level. Social sciences, humanities and FL DE classes that DS has taken have been fantastic.

 

[Arcadia]

This lengthy 2015 article provides more information. There are lots of blunt opinions in the article.

 

Schools not shy about marketing advanced placement http://www.thetimesherald.com/story/news/local/2015/10/02/schools-shy-marketing-advanced-placement/73208592/

 

"Public school students in St. Clair and Sanilac counties this year have $7,390 in per pupil funding that follows them to whichever school they enroll through the state Schools of Choice program.

 

In response, schools have been expanding their AP course offerings as a way to retain and draw students on the Schools of Choice market.

 

School officials have not been shy about advertising that fact.

 

“We want to promote it, absolutely,†Port Huron Northern principal Chip Mossett said.

 

For smaller districts especially, a significant drop in enrollment can lead to budget cuts. In those cases, offering AP classes as an incentive to offset student loss is a matter of survival.

 

...

“I think that’s been something that certainly we’ve pushed,†principal Mike Palmer said. “That certainly helps our students and marketing for our school. Sometimes I wonder if we haven’t got that word out of how many strong academic programs that we do offer kids. It’s an impressive thing.

 

“Last year we had one student who was an AP scholar with distinction because he had passed seven exams throughout his time. That’s impressive and certainly it’s a selling point because he’s the one doing it.â€

 

Palmer said the three biggest changes over the years in AP programming are an increase in the number of courses offered, more students enrolling in them, and students taking the college level courses at younger ages. AP U.S. History is offered to incoming freshman, whereas that class would have been an 11th grade course a decade ago, Palmer said. This year’s freshman class at Port Huron Schools also has a phased-in weighted grade point system that recognizes the extra rigor involved with AP courses.

 

...

While educators roundly lauded the many benefits of the AP program on college preparedness, they also said students shouldn’t expect instant success with AP classes.

 

“I feel that with the opportunity, a lot of students could rise to the challenge but you would have needed that background. The student needs to be very well-read in order to be prepared for the rigors of the AP course. Sometimes it is more challenging than a college-level course,†said Melissa Tremmel, an AP English literature and composition teacher at Landmark.

 

Whether the potential for college credit and saved tuition dollars can be translated into real possibility depends on the student.

 

“They expect you to do it. Whether you do it or not is your choice. And if you do it but you don’t put the time in you will fail,†said R.J. Arnold, 16, an AP student at Port Huron High.

 

...

“As an educator and a parent, they’re getting so much so quickly, sometimes what is lost is the teaching techniques that might be beneficial in other ways, such as problem-based approaches that take more time to teach. The teachers know they have to get through so much content because it’s going to be on the test. So it’s a tradeoff, but certainly the credits are there,†Spencer said.

 

He said some of the differences between dual enrollment and AP courses is the level of structuring. AP students attend class daily for about an hour a day whereas a typical college course meets twice a week.

 

There also is variability across colleges. St. Clair County Community College will grant college credits equivalent to two history courses for students who score 3 out of 5 on the AP history exam, but some universities require a score of 4 on the same exam for degree credit.

 

...

Lastly, rural districts are without the same ability of larger districts to offer brick and mortar AP classes because of low enrollment numbers and demand.

 

Sandusky Junior/Senior High School Principal Steve Carlson, who serves on the board of directors for the Michigan Association of Secondary School Principals, said for smaller schools a growing online trend for AP classes might help make up for that disparity.

 

Currently Sandusky offers one brick and mortar AP class in English Literature with 15 students enrolled.

 

“Our smaller size has made it difficult to offer many AP classes due to low student demand. What has been nice in recent years is a growing partnership with Michigan Virtual High School, which allows our students to take many classes in an online setting that we can't offer at SHS. Some of these classes include AP classes. Last year we had one student enroll in AP U.S. History. This year we have a student enrolled in AP Macroeconomics and another student enrolled in AP U.S. History,†Carlson said in an email."

[SeaConquest]

Same reason DS is taking AP Chemistry instead of DE-ing (our initial preference) for a chemistry lab science.

 

Our CC is interesting in that the physics department seems relatively high level but math, chemistry and biology are highly debatable in standards/ level. Social sciences, humanities and FL DE classes that DS has taken have been fantastic.

 

How did you ascertain the quality of the CC's departments?

[quark]

How did you ascertain the quality of the CC's departments?

It's not full proof but we use what we can.

 

First, trial and error (i.e. with math, DS sat through 2 semesters of dry classes and challenged himself in other ways before meeting a not-too-bad Calc 3 prof).

 

Second, the students at this CC are prolific Rate My Professor users. :thumbup: DS searches for feedback and I give my 2 cents. We do take reviews with a pinch of salt.

 

We also look at the course outlines page and compare textbooks used with college level textbooks recommended here and elsewhere (including UCs if we can find them listed on course schedule pages...sometimes we have to go back a few semesters because websites are often not updated).

 

Physics department has profs who have lectured at the UC...not a 100% guarantee of quality though (one math prof lectured at both UC and this CC and was disappointing in quality).

 

For literature, DS used the good ol' trick of choosing classes based on a prof he had already had and liked (the RMP reviews for many English profs at this CC is very high btw...interesting because there are many international students at this college and a good number strike me as ESL learners, which tells me that the profs really work hard to help these students to succeed).

 

We do not research every single course on offer though...just the ones DS might be interested in. They tend to be some of the more interesting as well as popular classes.

 

Eta: he has spent 7 semesters here counting this one. Time helps!

Edited January 27, 2017 by quark

[snowbeltmom]

 Honestly, it makes not much sense to talk about "college level courses" as if there were a unified standard . College courses at different institutions vary so tremendously in scope and depth that the very term "college level course" means absolutely nothing.

I agree that college courses aren't standardized, but the variation in classes at different colleges really doesn't matter.  What is important is that the AP course is standardized thereby enabling each college to individually determine whether that AP standard meets the requirements of its course.  For example, my son's college will accept AP credit for BC Calc because the AP BC Calc course is equivalent to Calc I and Calc II offered at his college.  On the other hand, his college will not accept credit for AP Biology because that AP Bio course does not meet his school's standard for Introductory Biology. 

 

When an instructor teaching an AP course goes off on a tangent and deviates from the AP syllabus, that class is no longer standardized making it impossible for the both the student and college advisor to automatically know whether the student has obtained the knowledge that the college deems sufficient for its introductory course. 

[regentrude]

I agree that college courses aren't standardized, but the variation in classes at different colleges really doesn't matter.  What is important is that the AP course is standardized

 

I understand that and was not arguing this point at all - I was merely responding to your remark "some AP courses are not actually college level courses" by pointing out that there the term "college level course" does not really mean anything ;)

Edited January 27, 2017 by regentrude

[shawthorne44]

:iagree:

I didn't do a good job of making my point in my last post.  AP used to mean that a class was college level, yet now we all wonder how classrooms of middle school students and 9th grade students are ready for college level work.  I think the answer to that question is that some of these AP courses are not actually college level courses, and that is how younger high school students are able to succeed in them.

 

I think for traditionally schooled students, especially, more APs translates into a more rigorous transcript, and as someone reminded me earlier in this thread, a higher gpa.  As homeschoolers, I don't think it is necessary to take many of these "lower level" AP classes if the reason is solely to satisfy the "rigor aspect" for a transcript.  

 

If a homeschooled student has a love of history, then AP World History may be a good course to take, but if the sole reason to take the class would be to impress the adcom with the AP class, the student's time is probably better spent doing something else.  

 

ETA: Farrar did a better job of articulating my point.

 

 

Also, how hard can a genuinely college level Environmental Science class be?  It isn't like it will require math beyond a mildly bright non-mathy 9th grader.   There won't be any prerequisites.  

[SparklyUnicorn]

Didn't read most of the responses.  I don't know a ton about AP, but I assumed AP was mostly about the prestige of "AP" on the transcript.  A lot of schools don't have "honors" courses like they used to so AP seems to be "the" honors courses.  In terms of getting a leg up on college courses, well that part IMO is kind of a pointless scam because at least when I went to school they charge you a flat price for full time and you can take up to a certain number of courses and even overload on that same price.  But what you cannot do is drop down below a certain amount if you are getting any kind of financial aid.  So maybe if they give you the credits for the courses it is nice for being able to skip the intro level courses, but overall doesn't really lighten your load in terms of number of courses or cost.  So I imagine you are still taking the same number of courses overall.  So what's the point really? 

I can see the particular draw for homeschoolers because it might be one way to show some outside validation. 

[regentrude]

 In terms of getting a leg up on college courses, well that part IMO is kind of a pointless scam because at least when I went to school they charge you a flat price for full time and you can take up to a certain number of courses and even overload on that same price.  But what you cannot do is drop down below a certain amount if you are getting any kind of financial aid.  So maybe if they give you the credits for the courses it is nice for being able to skip the intro level courses, but overall doesn't really lighten your load in terms of number of courses or cost.  So I imagine you are still taking the same number of courses overall.  So what's the point really? 

 

1. Actually, many schools charge directly by the credit hour. You pay for each course you take. So, if you don't have to take x courses because you have AP credit, that translates into direct savings on tuition and fees.

 

2. Moreover, if you have enough AP credit so that you can complete your required coursework in fewer semesters and graduate early, that translates into a lot of money, because you will enter the job market a semester earlier.

 

3. It does lighten you load if, instead of having to take 16 hours per semester in order to graduate in 4 years, you only have to take 12 hours per semester. That is significant especially when it comes to difficult courses. It may also free up enough time for a double major.

 

ETA: Taking AP Lang, AP Lit, and AP calc BC and getting 5s on the exams gives credit for 6 hours of comp and 8 hours of calc at our school - that's almost a full semester load.

Edited January 27, 2017 by regentrude

[Dmmetler]

Also, how hard can a genuinely college level Environmental Science class be? It isn't like it will require math beyond a mildly bright non-mathy 9th grader. There won't be any prerequisites.

It will, however likely require reading and writing skills beyond a typical 9th grade class, and many 9th graders will have never yet written a real lab report nor will they have had much experience reading journal articles. If a course has to teach high school level science reading and writing, it cannot be a true college level course, IMO.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

Didn't read most of the responses.  I don't know a ton about AP, but I assumed AP was mostly about the prestige of "AP" on the transcript.  A lot of schools don't have "honors" courses like they used to so AP seems to be "the" honors courses.  In terms of getting a leg up on college courses, well that part IMO is kind of a pointless scam because at least when I went to school they charge you a flat price for full time and you can take up to a certain number of courses and even overload on that same price.  But what you cannot do is drop down below a certain amount if you are getting any kind of financial aid.  So maybe if they give you the credits for the courses it is nice for being able to skip the intro level courses, but overall doesn't really lighten your load in terms of number of courses or cost.  So I imagine you are still taking the same number of courses overall.  So what's the point really? 

I can see the particular draw for homeschoolers because it might be one way to show some outside validation. 

 

Because of AP credit, my son had completed all but one of the university core credit requirements by the end of his first semester.  His university requires that every graduate have credits in a variety of courses, including writing and discourse; ideas, cultural traditions and values; society and human behavior; scientific reasoning and discovery; quantitative and symbolic reasoning; creativity and aesthetic experience; and critical issues in a global context.

 

Because he has now met these requirements, that space in his schedule will be open for courses of his choice.  That might mean a majors course outside his main focus, or a fun course like insects and society.   When he first met with his advisor, he was pretty happy to see that he was starting out with several boxes checked.

 

Between AP and dual enrollment courses that transferred, he was able to start his first majors course this semester, rather than waiting until sophomore year (students start as General Engineering, then declare a major after completing 24 key credits).  This means he will have the intro course in his major done when he decides if that is the path he actually wants to take.

[eternalsummer]

My high school had the IB program and thus AP classes (they offered a few) were for kids who weren't academic enough (in our perception) to take the IB Diploma.  It's funny how strong that prejudice is - even though it was totally situational, I still feel now this aversion to AP on the basis of "the classes aren't hard enough."

 

Sparkly, I started at a mid=level state flagship (Uni of Kansas) with 30 hours of credit from IB and AP tests (we all took the AP math test b/c IB math was standard level at our school, and no one would give college credit for standard level IB scores).  KU paid for 15 hours of credit per semester (that's what you needed to graduate in 4 years if you started with nothing) so I took 12 credits per semester and they sent me extra $ for the credits I didn't take.    Carrying 12 credits as an English major was easier than easy.  I could have done two of those degrees at the same time it was so easy (until DD was born).

 

I have high hopes that my kids will go to college with a semester of credit via entrance exam and AP scores.  We have about a million kids and they won't get any need-based aid, so paying for college will have to include credit by exam.

[Woodland Mist Academy]

 

 We have about a million kids 

 

:laugh:

[Chanley]

How did you ascertain the quality of the CC's departments?

 

I talk to the older teens that my kids know and kids that belong to my friends. I always talk about school and teachers with them. Plus I live in a very small town, so everybody knows everybody's business.  Many of the older teens that I know who have gone on to 4 year universities complain about their lack of science skills after DE'ing at our local CC. I can list a handful of kids that transferred into liberal arts majors after hoping to be pre-med because they got to the 4 year school and could not keep up with the science at the Jr. level after having freshman and sophomore level science classes at our CC. 

 

Friend some teens, they love to complain about terrible teachers. I can usually ascertain the difference in complaints between not wanting to do work and not being able to do the work. 

[3andme]

I have mixed feelings about the AP courses. As homeschoolers, I am encouraging my sons to take at least some APs as it provides a good academic benchmark for comparison with B&M students. It also gives them experience in reading college level textbooks and in taking the equivalent of a high stakes final. Where I live, it is cheaper and more convenient than taking dual enrollment courses  and I hope eventually may result in some tuition savings. However, I would not want the APs to crowd out the opportunity to have them pursue deeper or more esoteric academic interests while in high school.

 

On the other hand, in B&M high schools, I think the growing AP program is a symptom of a schizophrenic academic culture where college level courses are pushed down to high school while growing numbers of students graduate without basic high school level skills and require remediation. I think the problems originate in elementary and middle school, when schools are reluctant to differentiate classes in an effort to embrace inclusion and equity. While this seems to be a noble virtue, I don't think it benefits most students. The academic content is often watered down so that the differences between students appear less obvious yet large disparities remain and cannot be overcome. Academically able students are not challenged to their potential and academically challenged students often flounder but are pushed ahead nonetheless.

 

Once students hit high school, with college readiness as an end goal for all, there must be an academic reckoning. It's no longer enough to have a solid, well rounded high school education.  Academically able students flock to the AP courses to find courses that will finally challenge them and boost their chances(gpa) in an increasingly competitive college admissions world.  Other less able students are also pushed to take these classes in hopes that by taking a college level class they will somehow achieve college level skills despite not having foundational high school skills. As a result, students get high grades in AP courses and yet fail the AP exams in large numbers (30% to 60%) but there doesn't seem to be much concern for this discrepancy. As long as AP enrollment increases, high schools get kudos regardless of actual exam results.

 

That being said, I do think an AP course can be equivalent to a college course in many cases if you judge it simply by content covered. Is it the same experience as a college course? Generally no, college courses move more rapidly and require more independence (less scaffolding by teachers). 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 28, 2017 by 3andme

[katilac]

  Poor high school students full of whimsy and wonder, being crushed under the jaws of the AP industrial complex.  

 

:lol:

[shawthorne44]

It will, however likely require reading and writing skills beyond a typical 9th grade class, and many 9th graders will have never yet written a real lab report nor will they have had much experience reading journal articles. If a course has to teach high school level science reading and writing, it cannot be a true college level course, IMO.

 

Well, presumably the kids on the AP-track aren't the typical 9th graders, and instead are the best and the brightest.   Although, I admit a bias of Environmental Science as an underwater basket-weaving class.  

[eternalsummer]

My understanding (and I could be completely wrong) was that the point of an AP class, or any other class in high school for which universities were wiling to give college credit, is to cover a semester's worth of college-level material.  how long it takes the high school class to do that (generally twice as long) and what supports are necessary for younger students to learn the material (presumably more supervision of daily work, scaffolding of writing, more frequent testing before the final or the AP exam or whatever) are acceptable as long as the material learned is the same as the material that would be learned in the equivalent college course.

 

FWIW, none of the second-level English classes I took at KU (the 300 level ones) were as hard as IB English if you had spread them out over a full year instead of a semester.  Compacting the material and papers and etc. into a semester made them just about the same.

[regentrude]

My understanding (and I could be completely wrong) was that the point of an AP class, or any other class in high school for which universities were wiling to give college credit, is to cover a semester's worth of college-level material.  how long it takes the high school class to do that (generally twice as long) and what supports are necessary for younger students to learn the material (presumably more supervision of daily work, scaffolding of writing, more frequent testing before the final or the AP exam or whatever) are acceptable as long as the material learned is the same as the material that would be learned in the equivalent college course.

 

FWIW, none of the second-level English classes I took at KU (the 300 level ones) were as hard as IB English if you had spread them out over a full year instead of a semester.  Compacting the material and papers and etc. into a semester made them just about the same.

 

Yes to the bolded. Even if the pace is not the same as the corresponding college class, it would be completely pointless to make a student retake, say, physics or calculus, if he had demonstrated the subject mastery. A class is a means to an end, and the goal of a college physics or calculus class is to teach physics or calculus, not to squeeze a certain amount of learning in a limited amount of time with a limited amount of scaffolding. That may be the delivery method, but is not the academic goal.

 

So if a student knows the material of calc 1, he or she is ready to move on to calc 2, and how he acquired the mastery is irrelevant, whether he self studied over the course of three years, or did daily sessions with a tutor for a semester.

[8filltheheart]

Yes to the bolded. Even if the pace is not the same as the corresponding college class, it would be completely pointless to make a student retake, say, physics or calculus, if he had demonstrated the subject mastery. A class is a means to an end, and the goal of a college physics or calculus class is to teach physics or calculus, not to squeeze a certain amount of learning in a limited amount of time with a limited amount of scaffolding. That may be the delivery method, but is not the academic goal.

 

So if a student knows the material of calc 1, he or she is ready to move on to calc 2, and how he acquired the mastery is irrelevant, whether he self studied over the course of three years, or did daily sessions with a tutor for a semester.

I would add a caveat. If a student struggled with mastering a semester's worth of material at a yr long pace, they might not be ready to jump into cal 2 at a semester's pace and repeating cal 1 at college might make for better adjustment.

[MinivanMom]

Well, presumably the kids on the AP-track aren't the typical 9th graders, and instead are the best and the brightest.   Although, I admit a bias of Environmental Science as an underwater basket-weaving class.

 

Our local public schools use AP Envir Science (along with AP Human Geo) as their weeder classes. Everyone who had at least a B in their previous course is allowed to enroll in Envir Science or Hum Geo. But then when the students do poorly in the classes or on the exam, the guidance counselors have the evidence they need to gently guide them away from future AP classes. But on paper, those students still "participated in AP" so the the school can claim that x% of students at the school enroll in AP classes. It's something they market to parents.

 

The result at our local high schools is much lower pass rates for Envir Science and Human Geography, but sky-high pass rates for "hard" AP classes like Calc BC, Chem, & Physics. One local Calculus BC teacher is famous for making his students work like crazy for B's & C's, but then all of them go on to get 5's on the AP exam. The same school has a very mediocre pass rate for Envir Science. Last time I looked up the scores, the school averaged out to a 92% AP pass rate overall, which would be one of the highest in our state.

[regentrude]

I would add a caveat. If a student struggled with mastering a semester's worth of material at a yr long pace, they might not be ready to jump into cal 2 at a semester's pace and repeating cal 1 at college might make for better adjustment.

 

Yes, you are absolutely right.

That's why the credit is given only for a very good performance on the AP exam. Students who struggle tend not to ace a cumulative final.

Btw, when college professors have students test out of a course, they also don't know how they acquired that knowledge.