Under what circumstances

[mellifera33]

I have been talking with a friend who is going through great difficulty, and we have been talking about when it is in the best interests of the children to have their mother out of their life. It seems to me that it must be an extreme situation for this to be best, but I thought I'd come and ask the hive. Are there situations in which you think it is better for the children to have the mother out of their lives? What would be such situations? I can't be specific about what is going on with my friend because internet, but I'm curious what others think. 

[maize]

I know a woman who voluntarily gave up parental rights. She had recently escaped from an abusive husband but was debilitated by illness (undiagnosed thyroid issues); her children ended up in foster care and she decided they were better off there and gave up rights so they could be adopted.

 

She is now in a much better place--remarried, medically stable, and doing well. She has a good relationship with her children's new family and feels she made the best decision she could at the time.

[Janeway]

I have been talking with a friend who is going through great difficulty, and we have been talking about when it is in the best interests of the children to have their mother out of their life. It seems to me that it must be an extreme situation for this to be best, but I thought I'd come and ask the hive. Are there situations in which you think it is better for the children to have the mother out of their lives? What would be such situations? I can't be specific about what is going on with my friend because internet, but I'm curious what others think.

when the mother is abusive. And by abusive, I don't mean forgets to wash their face or let them play outside in shorts when it was 60 degrees. I mean real abuse and she has no desire to stop hurting her children.

[AnnE-girl]

I would say if the mom is struggling with severe addiction, especially things like heroin. Kids deserve more stability than life with that.

[gardenmom5]

I have a friend who raised her step-son, and he considers her his mom.  her husband got full custody when he divorced "egg donor".  (I've actually known the husband and his-ex since before their son was even conceived.  she was unstable then.  she's only gotten worse over the years.)

 

her step-son wants absolutely nothing to do with his bio-mother. he's had sporadic contact, so he does know her.

 

I know another woman who got full custody of her EX-husbands dds. (it was only about a week when she realized what scum he really was.  so they weren't married long at all when she filed for divorce.  she figures she was supposed to get those girls out of there.)   they wanted nothing to do with him.

 

both cases - the bio parent was abusive.  mentally or physically.

[gardenmom5]

when the mother is abusive. And by abusive, I don't mean forgets to wash their face or let them play outside in shorts when it was 60 degrees. I mean real abuse and she has no desire to stop hurting her children.

 

I'm done for.  2ds was wearing shorts and flip-flops with no sweater let alone coat, when it was below freezing. . . . :glare:

i made a deal he could wear shorts if he wore a jacket.  or a coat.  he left them on the playground. . . .

[HomeAgain]

Yes, there are some situations.

 

One of the women I knew here skipped town one night, taking her 2yo with her.  She moved to another state where she had friends, settled in an apartment with 3 of them, and took up her previous ways of smoking and drinking the night away, not caring about legalities, either.  She had friended me on Facebook months before and what I was seeing in her new life was dangerous for that baby of hers.  When she became pregnant again, the 2yo's dad stepped in.  He was not the child's biological father, and pretty young, but he begged for custody and she let him take that child back here.  I see them at all sorts of events and that little boy is so happy!  He's much better off than dealing with his mother's constant messes.  They see each other through phone calls but she has no desire to take him back again.

[Arcadia]

A friend's mom was awarded guardianship by the courts for her BIL's children twenty odd years ago. The BIL and wife were in and out of jail for drugs and gangs related crimes. The children were born drug addicts and needed a few surgeries before they were three.

[bolt.]

I think this is too complicated to be definitive about. I'm identifying a few factors:

 

1. How troubled is the woman?

 

2.a. How much are the consiquences of the trouble affecting the children's lifestyle, health and development?

 

2.b. What about the risks of things that haven't happened but might happen?

 

2.c. Is the damage done to the child direct? Intentional? Indirect? Accidental?

 

3. What kind of bonding (if any) has been established between the child and the mother?

 

4. What kind of likelihood-and-willingness towards improvement is present in the situation? What kinds of helps are available in the meantime.

 

5. What are the realistic alternatives? What kinds of bonds does the child have with other available and competent caregivers? Can a transition be done in a low-trauma way?

 

So, when I think it through different scenarios, I see different levels of severity.

 

Example: I think normal adoptions that take a mother (the birth mother) out of the picture without much trauma -- that can be a good path for kids. The mom doesn't have to be on the brink of disaster to choose it.

 

Example: If the child already lives with another caregiver and is happy and well bonded there, sometimes the mother in that situation isn't terribly involved in a parental fashion. So, if she starts to be even mildly harmful, I'd think about the child maybe being 'better without her'.

 

Example: If a mother is actively raising her children, who clearly love her, and there is some stability to their lives with her -- it would take some much bigger reasons to break that up. I'd tollerate a lot, and offer support over advocating removal. Especially if the alternative is a traumatic breaking up of the family and indefinite foster care.

 

So I find that my 'line' of 'how bad is too bad' moves around based on a lot of factors other that just the behaviour of the mother.

[Ausmumof3]

Physical abuse

Neglect that causes physical damage

Severe addiction that impairs ability to provide adequate care

 

As a general rule I think supports in place, backup, financial aid and treatment for mental illness are better for mother and child. There are some amazing foster carers but Foster care isn't without its problems especially when there is a shortage of foster carers so the state is relying on group homes and motels to provide accommodation for teens.

[Crimson Wife]

Abuse or a knowing failure to protect a child from abuse at the hands of someone else, severe neglect, severe addiction, severe mental illness, criminal activity that puts the child at a risk for harm (a toddler in my area recently got shot because he was in a car with gang members), that kind of thing.

[heartlikealion]

I have been talking with a friend who is going through great difficulty, and we have been talking about when it is in the best interests of the children to have their mother out of their life. It seems to me that it must be an extreme situation for this to be best, but I thought I'd come and ask the hive. Are there situations in which you think it is better for the children to have the mother out of their lives? What would be such situations? I can't be specific about what is going on with my friend because internet, but I'm curious what others think. 

 

I don't know if you mean out of their life 100% forever or if you mean lose custody or what. But I will answer, anyway.

 

I don't even know that the word "extreme" is necessary. What about a case where the biological mom had an unplanned pregnancy and isn't prepared to be a mom and there's a step mom that is willing and able to take on the mother role?

 

What about adopted children? I don't know that all the moms that put their children up for adoption had dire situations. 

 

Better is subjective, but I could see how one person's perspective may be "this is better" based on their wants, needs, situation.

[Guest]

Yes- I think there are several:

Drug or alcohol addiction (that impacts daily activities) in a mother;

a woman who can't or won't protect her child from an abusive (of any type) partner;

a woman who is abusive to her children and/or her partner- the kids don't need to deal with it;

a woman who has no chance of getting by without leaving the children alone unattended for hours (support would be best here, but some refuse it and leave the children unsupervised); 

a woman with a severe personality disorder- you can be abusive without lifting a finger

 

If a woman thinks she is in a bad enough position to need to be away from her children, I would take her very, very seriously. 

Edited January 14, 2017 by texasmom33

[Crimson Wife]

 

I don't even know that the word "extreme" is necessary. What about a case where the biological mom had an unplanned pregnancy and isn't prepared to be a mom and there's a step mom that is willing and able to take on the mother role?

 

Taking custody isn't the same thing as cutting a bio parent out of a child's life. I know plenty of relatives who step in when a bio parent isn't able to raise the child. But the bio parent typically has visitation (either formally or informally). They may not be a major part of the child's life, but they are still in that child's life.

 

I know 1 situation IRL where the father and stepmom have sole custody and the bio mom had parental rights legally terminated. The bio mom has severe mental illness and is unstable. She had basically abandoned the child and when the dad remarried, he went to court to formally terminate her rights. He seems like a decent guy and I'm confident he would prefer his ex to get better and be part of their child's life. But that doesn't sound likely to ever happen.

[gardenmom5]

Physical abuse

Neglect that causes physical damage

Severe addiction that impairs ability to provide adequate care

 

As a general rule I think supports in place, backup, financial aid and treatment for mental illness are better for mother and child. There are some amazing foster carers but Foster care isn't without its problems especially when there is a shortage of foster carers so the state is relying on group homes and motels to provide accommodation for teens.

 

please don't discount the long-term damage psychological and/or emotional abuse can do to a child.  just because it doesn't leave a mark- doesn't mean it hasn't done damage.

[Ausmumof3]

please don't discount the long-term damage psychological and/or emotional abuse can do to a child. just because it doesn't leave a mark- doesn't mean it hasn't done damage.

No but it's much harder to prove or be sure that it is happening. The same words on different family contexts can be different.

[Melissa in Australia]

I will go further and say that if a person has had their child removed and they DO NOT CHANGE THEIR LIFESTYLE then they should have to have mandatory sterilisation.

 

I have 3 out of 5 children in a family the oldest was removed way before the youngest were born. the damage is irreversible.

 

 I know of a family that has had 8 children removed one after another, another family with 6 and counting, another with 7

[kiwik]

I think it is the same criteria as for a father. If the parent consistently puts their needs (for drugs, a relationship or whatever) before the needs of the child and genuine efforts to support and assist have been made without success then I think the child is better of somewhere else. I wouldn't cut off all contact forever though.

[Ausmumof3]

I will go further and say that if a person has had their child removed and they DO NOT CHANGE THEIR LIFESTYLE then they should have to have mandatory sterilisation.

 

I have 3 out of 5 children in a family the oldest was removed way before the youngest were born. the damage is irreversible.

 

I know of a family that has had 8 children removed one after another, another family with 6 and counting, another with 7

When I was in hospital with ds a social worker from children's services was there to remove a baby born the same day. It was so sad 😢

[Janeway]

Oh yeah, when the mother tries to poison the child against the father in order to get the child to hate the father and fight the child. In which case, the father should be given custody and her visitation should be reduced to supervised. And this should go both ways.

[heartlikealion]

Taking custody isn't the same thing as cutting a bio parent out of a child's life. I know plenty of relatives who step in when a bio parent isn't able to raise the child. But the bio parent typically has visitation (either formally or informally). They may not be a major part of the child's life, but they are still in that child's life.

 

I know 1 situation IRL where the father and stepmom have sole custody and the bio mom had parental rights legally terminated. The bio mom has severe mental illness and is unstable. She had basically abandoned the child and when the dad remarried, he went to court to formally terminate her rights. He seems like a decent guy and I'm confident he would prefer his ex to get better and be part of their child's life. But that doesn't sound likely to ever happen.

 

No, it doesn't have to mean that. I didn't mean to apply it was always that way.

 

Given I don't know what the OP meant by "out of their life" I was just coming up with various scenarios that might apply. I am not saying that having custody always means that the other parent is cut off completely. In my head when I posted the thing about the bio mom and the step mom I was thinking a situation where the bio mom was not interested in any visitation or not in the short-term and/or didn't live near the dad/step mom. If they lived in different states, for example, they might go on living their independent lives with little or no contact.

[Scarlett]

I have a friend who is fostering to adopt a child right now. The bio mom can't stay off drugs. The child is about 10 and I don't think the bio mom will be totally shut out......because the child knows her and loves her....but bio mom will never have unsupervised custody. Very very sad, but sometimes kids are better off without their bio mom.