When your child doesn't seem very....driven

[MomatHWTK]

I follow some amazing travel bloggers on Twitter. Earth Pics, Nat Geo and several other organizations all have websites and social media accounts focused on travel. The Virtual Teacher offers a full range of art lessons. There are ways to feed his existing interests. FWIW, some folks are making lots of $ creating Minecraft based learning modules and I know lots of adults who play Pokemon Go. Everyone had different interests. It sounds like your son has interests, they just don't seem interesting to you or DH. LOL

[freesia]

Oh, Halcyon,

I could have written your post!  Dh and I probably aren't the most driven individuals in the world, but we are both first born over-achievers who were serious students and worked hard to reach our goals of getting into great colleges.

 

We have been blessed with a very bright, but laid back Type-B oldest son.  When he was 5 and I knew he was very bright, I imagined how we would homeschool high school and all the wonderful achievements he would rack up and the awesome schools he would get into.  Ha-ha  Not that he's not taking good classes, but he is not self-motivated and driven.

 

I have come to embrace who he is and he may end up happier and less stressed.  He is an awesome kid, but is not externally motivated to over-achieve.  He is motivated by his passions.  I, like Regentrude, have realized my ds can finish projects, learn information, work hard and perservere, but at this stage of maturity, it helps if it is in his passion.

 

But, to encourage you, at 16 he is miles and miles better than he was at 14.  He is doing really well in all his online classes and has been putting more than the minimum into his "home" classes.  He's not overachieving, but I am not the one driving him to do well.

 

He's going to be fine.

 

(And I live in a NYC suburb and my throat closes when I talk to some of the parents.  It's nuts what is going on around here and there's no way my kid can compete b/c there's no way dh and I would put our family through that kind of pressure. It's not healthy; it's crazy. Try not to pay attention or talk to those friends.)

[mirabillis]

I also haven't read all the responses - but wanted to weigh in.

 

We very much feel the same way with our 14yo. While my DH & I are highly driven, highly capable people (in all ways), he doesn't seem to have that gene. He would say the same thing about a Calc midterm, I'm sure. I think (hope) much of it has to do with age. 14 can be really immature still - so we're going to continue to be on, to push and prod, as it works and keeps him on the straight & narrow, excelling. Without my prodding, he would backslide quickly. I have no doubt he'll be fine by later high school years, but for his particular type of boy, I think this is what he needs now. It's the beauty of homeschooling, that you can poke & prod and be so a part of it all to really bring out the best in them.

 

So keep the faith. Let's hope our boys grow up & get their on their own, eventually. ;)

[dereksurfs]

Halcyon,

 

We've watched our boys grow up and become teenagers on here. That has been fun. ;)

 

Let's face it, some people don't find their passions until later in life, much later than 14! And that's perfectly normal. I think he wants to just be a normal teenage boy and will discover those things in his own time. Academically, he is ahead. So I wouldn't worry too much on that front. Just continue to encourage him to do his best while helping him to discover his passions. Here are a few suggestions:

 

1. Make sure he has down time outside mandatory activities (e.g. scholastic, extracurricular expectations).

2. Present him with opportunities to explore undiscovered interests. Have casual open ended conversations with 'what if' scenarios.

3. Offer him the chance to take electives at your local CC or University where he's around others his own age. Our son's first college course was a Summer workshop through the Monterey Jazz Festival where he got to play with peers and professional musicians. That really pumped him up increasing his love for both piano an Jazz. Later I took him to the Jazz festival which he loved.

4. Delve deeper into his current interests. Find out what makes him tick. Explore his love of travel more, for example. What does he like so much about it? Seeing beautiful places? Experiencing different cultures? Could there be a tangential interest there, perhaps? What about Geography, Geology, Photography, Architecture, Cartography, Music, etc...?

 

Above all else its important that he senses love and not disappointment from the both of you. That will be the hardest to project even though you both feel that way because of the parallel expectation that he could be/do something more at this age. Kids are very intuitive about these things and sense these undercurrents. I can almost guarantee he already knows this.  Sometimes the best of intentions can backfire and potentially contribute to a lack of specific passion among other things. 'What would happen if I was just me? Would that be ok? Do I measure up?'

 

When you do things 'together' you are speaking his love language and he enjoys it. That in turn motivates him. As some have suggested, he has a different personality type which is perfectly fine and normal. He will most likely make a great team player in the workplace some day.  :thumbup:

[madteaparty]

Well I would look at this as an opportunity. Considering he is not interested in anything, this means he will do everything you throw at him, yes? Enthusiasm not mandatory. More work for you, for sure. 

 

I have had much occasion to mull this issue over and this is where I come out. 

 

Also, stop reading the "interest-led" or "child-led" anything on this board. Really, it's crazy making.If only there was a way to block from my view any thread where those terms appear...Because people who don't have such kids will urge you to further explore what interest you may have overlooked ;) Because it must be there somewhere, right? (*sarcasm alert)

Edited January 7, 2017 by madteaparty

[Deee]

Congrats on raising a child so refreshingly free of anxiety.  Seriously, its a rare thing these days.

 

By far my greatest challenge as a parent has been to accept my son for who he is.  I think this is made harder because I have only one child, and homeschooling compounds the intensity of our relationship.  My DS16 is not motivated to do school work.  He never really has been.  He is very bright and very lazy if he isn't interested.  But today he is helping DH build the entrance to our cellar, he has had a long conversation with me about restoring my old car, been for a bike ride (because DH refuses to feed him until he exercises), finally emptied the garbage bin in his room, watched a video with us, may eventually discuss his year 11 subjects with me, is working on a 3D model for a MkII Jag for a game he plays online, plays the guitar beautifully and is generally cheerful.  He has taught himself to weld, got a job, volunteers at a local heritage museum and is well respected.  He is not the anxious, ambitious student I was and I'm actually very glad of this (when I'm not mourning all the books he might not read and the unused curricula on the shelf).  My introverted boy who left school at 7 due to bullying and couldn't even get up on stage in his kindergarten play is the lead male actor in his drama troupe, managing two parts in a single night: a bumbling, comical Harry in A Delicate Balance and a chilling John Proctor in the Crucible.  He learned his lines with the minimum of fuss, helped the other kids, controlled his nerves and was so intense on stage that I had to remind myself that he was my son.  He is not who I thought he would be, but he is himself and that is more than good enough.  

 

Your son is smart and has parents who care.  He will be fine.  You and DH will probably be fine, too.

D

[Halcyon]

 

 

~

 

OP, I really do get where you're coming from. My standards are stupidly high. So high that I thought dd17 might have learning difficulties, but when she went to public school, it turned out she was gifted, lol. When they told me that, I was all '???!! Are you sure ? Because I know she wrote a novel last year, but she wouldn't edit it.'

 

Your son sounds like a really nice, perfectly intelligent kid. The world needs more boys like this!

 

I think mine must be too. During my son's brief stint in public high school last semester, I was truly appalled at the low standards. Now, that may be because my standards are stupidly high, like yours, or the school actually sucked LOL. I have no idea, to be honest. But nonetheless, I will continue to expect a lot from my son. But I will try and recognize that I may be coming from a different place than him.

[Halcyon]

I follow some amazing travel bloggers on Twitter. Earth Pics, Nat Geo and several other organizations all have websites and social media accounts focused on travel. The Virtual Teacher offers a full range of art lessons. There are ways to feed his existing interests. FWIW, some folks are making lots of $ creating Minecraft based learning modules and I know lots of adults who play Pokemon Go. Everyone had different interests. It sounds like your son has interests, they just don't seem interesting to you or DH. LOL

 

 

Can you share your fave travel bloggers?

[Halcyon]

Oh, Halcyon,

I could have written your post!  Dh and I probably aren't the most driven individuals in the world, but we are both first born over-achievers who were serious students and worked hard to reach our goals of getting into great colleges.

 

We have been blessed with a very bright, but laid back Type-B oldest son.  When he was 5 and I knew he was very bright, I imagined how we would homeschool high school and all the wonderful achievements he would rack up and the awesome schools he would get into.  Ha-ha  Not that he's not taking good classes, but he is not self-motivated and driven.

 

I have come to embrace who he is and he may end up happier and less stressed.  He is an awesome kid, but is not externally motivated to over-achieve.  He is motivated by his passions.  I, like Regentrude, have realized my ds can finish projects, learn information, work hard and perservere, but at this stage of maturity, it helps if it is in his passion.

 

But, to encourage you, at 16 he is miles and miles better than he was at 14.  He is doing really well in all his online classes and has been putting more than the minimum into his "home" classes.  He's not overachieving, but I am not the one driving him to do well.

 

He's going to be fine.

 

(And I live in a NYC suburb and my throat closes when I talk to some of the parents.  It's nuts what is going on around here and there's no way my kid can compete b/c there's no way dh and I would put our family through that kind of pressure. It's not healthy; it's crazy. Try not to pay attention or talk to those friends.)

 

 

Thank you--your son really does sound similar to mine. 

 

I too imagined all the reading we would do, the deep philosophical discussions we would have, the debating about politics...and all those lovely books on the shelf that I thought he would devour, as I have. :(

 

I think part of it is a sense of loss for what I had hoped for; it's not disappointment exactly, but I think I set myself up thinking my son would be more like me. I also think I need to find a community of people who love to discuss books---maybe I will join the Book Club here :)

[regentrude]

 

I too imagined all the reading we would do, the deep philosophical discussions we would have, the debating about politics...

 

You may still be surprised. And your son may do all these things - just not with you.

For my DS, a lot of interaction with others happened online before he found his live "tribe". Some IRL friends, some cyber-only friends. He reads philosophy, follows politics, debates - with his circle. I probably don't know half of what he reads, thinks, ponders, because he does not have the need to share this with us parents; he has a rich inner life that is his own. 

He just is so not like me. And that's OK.

Edited January 7, 2017 by regentrude

[Luckymama]

You may still be surprised. And your son may do all these things - just not with you.

For my DS, a lot of interaction with others happened online before he found his live "tribe". Some IRL friends, some cyber-only friends. He reads philosophy, follows politics, debates - with his circle. I probably don't know half of what he reads, thinks, ponders, because he does not have the need to share this with us parents; he has a rich inner life that is his own.

He just is so not like me. And that's OK.

Yes, this! D has in-depth conversations online (with irl friends and friends she's never met) about so many topics. Every once in a while she'll share a series of posts (or texts or someone's Snapchat story) that blows me away.

[lisabees]

The benefit of having six kids (two are step-kids, so no genetics involved) is that you quickly realize that they are each so different.  They are born with their own dispositions and life experiences have a way of magnifying that.

 

I have a dyslexic kid - the one who started this homeschooling journey.  Nothing ever came easily to him, so he has developed an amazing work ethic.  At 14, I was terrified for him. At 20, I am excited for him.  He is an A student in college and is always planning ahead to internships, jobs and studying abroad. He was never passionate about anything except for sports and working out.  

 

I recall a conversation I had with him when he was around 14.  He mentioned how his (gifted) brothers lay awake each night, thinking about things, trying to solve problems and change the world.  He said that he goes to sleep each night, satisfied.  He did his homework, played ball, hung out with his friends.  He was content with his life.

 

And that's what's we want for our kids, isn't it?  Happiness and the resilience to get through those times which aren't so happy.  

 

 

ETA: DH and I just had a conversation about his two girls an hour ago, saying how incredibly different they are from each other.  He then blamed his genes for the older girl's insecurities.  I laughed and said that wasn't fair, because the younger one is overly confident.  Did he have something to do with that, too?  

 

 

 

Edited January 7, 2017 by lisabees

[MomatHWTK]

Re: Travel accounts on Twitter

I like GlobalGaz, BonVoyagers, Nature Pro Gallery, Travel2Next, Life on Earth and BBCEarth. But there are many others. Some focus on geographic regions, others or particular types of travel or sport. 

 

[TKDmom]

What is she driven about? Art, cosplay, writing fan fiction, etc. But she won't enter her work in the Scholastic competition or apply for a scholarship to an arts high school like Idyllwild or anything like that. She just wants to do it for fun rather than having it judged. She wouldn't even take a visual art class as her community college general ed requirement, instead picking an Intro to Acting course. :glare:

 

Your oldest and mine would get along very well. DD15 spends a lot of her free time on the 17th Shard forums writing fan fiction and drawing pictures for people (those forums are related to a fantasy author we adore). She does have interests, but they are things like acting, reading, playing ukelele.... It's kinda frustrating, but I know she won't excel in subjects that I push her in. (Ahem...math). She just won't be pushed around.

 

I think it's ok to give a 14yo time to goof off. In just the last few months, DD15 has matured a lot. She's started thinking about what she wants to do in life. She's become more self-aware, and she's startung to push herself towards future goals. She still needs a lot of scaffolding and reminders to keep working. The key is for me to consult with her, to make sure she is on board with whatever I'm helping her do, and to act as a facilitator rather than a task-master.

 

My ds13 is even worse in the unmotivated category. His only interest is shooting younger siblings with nerf guns. :glare: He did go out and shovel all our neighbors' driveways today, so I know he can get things done and care about other people. With him, I sit him down and say, "Here are the requirements. Do you agree to this? Do you want to make any changes?" He won't decide to do things in his own, but he needs to have some choice. For literature, I gave him a long list of books to choose from this semester. He has to read 5 of them (with at least two of them being classics). I know I will have to remind him daily to do all his work, but allowing him some freedom to choose keeps him from getting too muley about it.

 

He's actually a lot like me. I was one of those gifted underperformers. I didn't have any interests but animals and gymnastics and reading fantasy novels as a kid. I did the least amount of work I could get away with through most of high school. It wasn't until my sophomore year of college that I figured out what I wanted to major in. Not learning to work hard as a kid has made "adulting" harder, but I can function in the adult world. I wish my parents had encouraged me to do more, but at the same time I'm so grateful they weren't breathing down my neck forcing me to succeed. I really just need a slower pace in life to think and contemplate things.

[Bootsie]

Different children show their talents and gifts in different ways.  DH and I are both college professors and are used to motivation and interest looking one way.  It looks much different in our children.  In middle school DD was convinced she did not want to go to college--in fact, she didn't have any interest in finishing high school.  She wanted to go save the sharks of the world and thought if she waited to complete here education they would all be dead and it would be too late.  She also complained about why she was stuck with two people as boring as college professors as parents--why couldn't we have interesting careers like being skydivers?  Fast forward, she is now a junior in college and is seriously considering a career in academia (and not in marine biology--she avoids science classes as much as possible).  So things do change...

[Garga]

Thank you--your son really does sound similar to mine. 

 

I too imagined all the reading we would do, the deep philosophical discussions we would have, the debating about politics...and all those lovely books on the shelf that I thought he would devour, as I have. :(

 

I think part of it is a sense of loss for what I had hoped for; it's not disappointment exactly, but I think I set myself up thinking my son would be more like me. I also think I need to find a community of people who love to discuss books---maybe I will join the Book Club here :)

 

 

Oh!  This hit me, what you wrote.  

 

I, too, soooo wanted the long discussions.  Someone else recently posted that she and her daughter will discuss the things they read about in history and the daughter gets all fired up about it.  I felt wistful.  I had so thought that would be my sons and me.  Nope.  My ds14 is at a stage where he isn't quite capable of long conversations.  It's frustrating. 

 

For example: I took my ds11 out to dinner the other night, just the two of us, and we discussed marriage and Mexican food and how restaurants decide how to decorate things and he contributed about 40% of the conversation.  I remember having conversations like that with my ds14 when he was younger.

 

Now, I drive my ds14 to his Spanish class, which is a little over an hour round trip, and he can barely get out a few words in response to the topics I bring up.  I carry about 85% of the conversation because he just can't articulate things.  He listens and nods his head, but just can't think of a thing to say to contribute to the conversation.  In school, I try to ask open ended questions to pull information out of him, but it's hard for him.  I do have a feeling that it's a developmental stage for him.  

 

When I was in high school my dad worked shift work.  When he was on the night shifts, my mom and I sat at the dining room table for 2 or 3 hours every single night, talking.  Hours of non-stop talking, back and forth.  I honestly thought I'd have that with my sons.  I thought we'd talk about all the books we'd read, we'd talk about news reports, we'd talk about history.

 

Nope.

 

I don't know if it'll ever come--if he'll develop and be able to talk with me later.  I don't know if it never will.  I hate stereotypes, but maybe it's a boy/girl thing and he'll never talk as much as I'd hoped.  Or as another poster said, maybe he'll never talk with me like that.  Maybe he'll only be able to talk to peers that way.  With his peers right now, he's pretty quiet, too.  

 

I get it.  I've almost completely let go of my disappointment over it.  And I have stopped commenting on it to my son (like wishing he could read what I read.)  It was a few months ago and I flat out said, "Oh, I wish you liked reading!  I really thought we'd read together and talk about books."  And he flat out said, "I'm so sorry, Mom.  I feel so bad that you feel sad about this."  And he looked sad.  Gak.  I didn't want to transfer my selfish disappointment on to him.  I haven't breathed a word about it since.  And I also told him, "No, no.  It's ok.  This is selfish of me.  You have your own things."  It was a wake up call for me.

 

I'm at a bit of a loss right now, as you are, trying to find someone to talk to about things.  That's why I hang out here so much. I can "talk" back and forth with you guys a bit.  A book club is a good idea.

 

(I saw Manchester by the Sea the other day and just about popped because I wanted to discuss it sooo bad, but have no one to talk to about it.  Such a sad movie, but I thought it was so well done.)

Edited January 7, 2017 by Garga

[regentrude]

Now, I drive my ds14 to his Spanish class, which is a little over an hour round trip, and he can barely get out a few words in response to the topics I bring up.  I carry about 85% of the conversation because he just can't articulate things.  He listens and nods his head, but just can't think of a thing to say to contribute to the conversation.  In school, I try to ask open ended questions to pull information out of him, but it's hard for him.  I do have a feeling that it's a developmental stage for him.  

 

Are you sure that he really "can't think of a thing to say"? That he "can't articulate things"?

Do you observe a lack of this ability when he converses about a topic of his choice?

To me, this car scenario sounds very much like a teen who does not care to discuss the very topics mom has selected for a meaningful conversation. He many not be unable to contribute - he may simply don't care to discuss this particular issue with you.

 

Talking to my DS can be like pulling teeth; he is introverted and communicates in order to exchange particular information that he feels needs to be exchanged. He does not talk just to have a conversation or pass the time. But when he initiates a conversation, or when there is company he cares about, he can debate, argue, discuss with the finest of them. he can with his friends. He just chooses not to respond on cue to scripted conversations (or, horror of horrors, to "schooly" discussions in our homeschool. he does fine participating in his outsourced classes.)

 

So maybe your DS simply does not wish to discuss with you?

[Garga]

Are you sure that he really "can't think of a thing to say"? That he "can't articulate things"?

Do you observe a lack of this ability when he converses about a topic of his choice?

To me, this car scenario sounds very much like a teen who does not care to discuss the very topics mom has selected for a meaningful conversation. He many not be unable to contribute - he may simply don't care to discuss this particular issue with you.

 

Talking to my DS can be like pulling teeth; he is introverted and communicates in order to exchange particular information that he feels needs to be exchanged. He does not talk just to have a conversation or pass the time. But when he initiates a conversation, or when there is company he cares about, he can debate, argue, discuss with the finest of them. he can with his friends. He just chooses not to respond on cue to scripted conversations (or, horror of horrors, to "schooly" discussions in our homeschool. he does fine participating in his outsourced classes.)

 

So maybe your DS simply does not wish to discuss with you?

 

 

This is a good point.  I haven't paid enough attention I don't think.  I don't see him interact with his peers ever.  He interacts in places where I am not (Spanish classroom/youth group at church/work.)

 

I'm going to try to take better notice.

[lisabees]

Garga, your post was beautiful and refreshingly honest. As parents, we have expectations of our kids - realistic and not. They teach us so many things about ourselves. Just knowing that others feel the same way can lessen some of the guilt we have in expecting them to be something they're not.

Thanks to all for sharing!

 

ETA: Saw Manchester by the Sea.  As we walked out of the theatre, I told dh that it was fun.  And sad.  It was like watching any of us up there on screen - just struggling through life, trying to make our way with all of our demons.  Never being able to shake them.  

Edited January 7, 2017 by lisabees

[lisabees]

 

 

Talking to my DS can be like pulling teeth; he is introverted and communicates in order to exchange particular information that he feels needs to be exchanged. He does not talk just to have a conversation or pass the time. But when he initiates a conversation, or when there is company he cares about, he can debate, argue, discuss with the finest of them. he can with his friends. He just chooses not to respond on cue to scripted conversations (or, horror of horrors, to "schooly" discussions in our homeschool. he does fine participating in his outsourced classes.)

 

 

 

Ha.  My 20 year old is a man of few words also.

 

But...he is THE most insightful when it comes to people.  My others are too interested in their ideas.  This one?  He can say one sentence about a person that gives you an entirely new perspective about why they are the way they are.  And he always sees the good in people because of it.  

[quark]

I love all of the honest sharing too and would like to thank you all for doing so. I have a really good kid and a hard working one but that doesn't mean we have the perfect life. Like Lisa says, we all have our demons to juggle and struggle with. At some point, the demons shrieked loudly and helped me realize that I have to let this kid go. I can have certain dreams and standards about our relationship but I cannot be the steering wheel or even the destination, only the road signs and the occasional speed bump.

 

It really takes a village to parent and support our kids.

[Halcyon]

This reminds me that my son is quite expressive in his online classes--in fact, in WHA's first Calc class, he got 5 points (something like squoosh balls??) for participation. He's laughing and typing and answering questions and making jokes with the other kids before class starts. So he can be expressive when he wants to be. 

 

He took the 16personalities.com test and got ENTP-A.( Extroverted Intuition, Introverted Thinking, Extroverted Feeling and Introverted Sensing)(the debater) which doesn't surprise me. He can be pretty argumentative lol. My husband is ENTJ-The Commander (no surprise there!!) and I am INTP.-A. Ironically, it is said that I do poorly in the caring profession-I am an acupuncturist, so that's interesting. I do get totally exhausted after a work shift.

 

I am going to research this a bit more.

[Halcyon]

Garga-

I think part of me thought after all the hard work (enjoyable! but hard!) of schooling the younger years, the high school years would be a time to share knowledge, discuss, read books together, debate....it's what i had wanted my parents to do with me when i was a teen. and i was looking forward to this time with my son. so it's a loss, for me. 

[Clemsondana]

This is intersting because at my house we frequently have converstations about it being difficult to understand how other people are thinking. My husband and I both have STEM PhDs, but he is far more driven than I am. There have been times when I've earend awards, but I've rarely pursued them in a 'driven' way - they've been the result of me spending a lot of time on something that I enjoy, often with the goal in mind, but not in a 'driven' sort of way, if that makes sense. There are times when I don't really have anything that I'm working passionaltely on, and other times when I'm focused on something.

 

When I was post-doc-ing, I decided to switch to teaching. Part of it was that I had realized that I had more passion for teaching than research, and part of it was that I couldn't summon what I had come to think of as the 'fake stress' that everybody in the university/industry/lab world seemed to have. The stress is real, but it's not about the kind of things that give me a sense of urgency - no life or death problems. People were alwasy running around in a panic over deadlines, wondering why I was calm, and I'd say that I put my talk together last week. There seemed to be a feeling that if you weren't stressed, you weren't busy enough. I hated it.

 

I probably read as much primary literature now (to prepare for my Bio II class) as I did then, but I teach in an environment where chronic stress is something to be concerned about, not something to celebrate. :-) I wonder if, based on your descriptions, if your son will wind up with something that interests him but is avoiding the 'frantic-ness' or stress that he may associate with high-achievening academics. If that's the case, letting him do just enough to be successful academically while encouraging outside interests, volunteer work, etc, may lead to something that he cares enough about to pursue.

[Halcyon]

I wonder if, based on your descriptions, if your son will wind up with something that interests him but is avoiding the 'frantic-ness' or stress that he may associate with high-achievening academics. If that's the case, letting him do just enough to be successful academically while encouraging outside interests, volunteer work, etc, may lead to something that he cares enough about to pursue.

 

I think this will happen. he has already told me he wants to go to a low-stress but academically oriented college, one that is team-oriented and not grade oriented. He doesn't want a stressful job at all (but then, neither do DH or I--DH is purely internally driven as am I--and I shut down if pushed externally).

[Garga]

 

 

ETA: Saw Manchester by the Sea.  As we walked out of the theatre, I told dh that it was fun.  And sad.  It was like watching any of us up there on screen - just struggling through life, trying to make our way with all of our demons.  Never being able to shake them.  

 

 

Yes!  You hit it on the head: it was just like watching any of us and so true to life that you can't always shake everything.

 

There's a thing I've been struggling with with my family for 22 years, and I finally realized it will never be resolved.  I'll never get over it, and I'm finally ok with that fact.  Sometimes you just can't beat it.  

 

And there was a lot of humor in the movie.  I laughed more in that movie than in the last comedy I watched.  

[...................]

Just agreeing with everyone else here.  My husband was a kid who loved his hobbies, actually failed high school all four years, but because of his hobbies and his work ethic, he got somewhere in life and now he is at Google.  There are people with his intelligence who were more focused at his age, who got to jobs like Google in their early 20's. And sure, that's nice.  My dh didn't get there till his 40's, and that is also unusual.

 

I myself was extremely driven, internally and somewhat driven by teh expectations and constant reminders from family, and then I burnt out, got involved with the wrong crowd and dropped out before my first semester of college was over.  I was so unhealthy from all the internal and external pressure, and I had no idea how to relax, how to enjoy time at home, how to just enjoy life.  I could have been luckier.  Maybe if I had not fallen in with a bad crowd I would have made it through college and somewhere in there turned off the pressure valve.  But se la vie.

 

I have friends from high school who were totally way way less driven and way less academic than your son, and than I was.  But they were good girls or boys who got B's and were happy balanced kids that loved their friends, didn't really go extreme one way or another.  All of those friends of mine finished college, some after 2 or even 3 years at CC, then more than 4 years at college, and they now have super rewarding careers, happy marriages and good lives.  Both men and women.

 

I mean, you have to be a consistent person.  You have to be a working person- doing chores, doing your schoolwork and having a job to help support yourself through college is sometimes healthy depending on the workload, or at least good summer jobs.  You have to be the kind of person that contributes to your family or your church.  YOu have to be the kind of person that showers and gets dressed every day and isn't addicted to completely inane past times.

 

But, you don't have to go to Yale or Columbia to be successful or happy.  Lots of people are happy doing many other things, than living in high income areas.  My kids know that they will have to move out of this area (other side of the country not NYC but not much cheaper), if they choose certain careers.  And we are all OK with that.

 

Is your son respectful?  Does he do his work?  Does he shower every day and get to his outside commitments on time?  Does he contribute somewhere, and do chores at home?  If he is, that I think it's all fine.  Keep loving him for who he is, not the future career you thought you wanted for him.  

 

Also, once again I think the Dolphin Way is a good book to re-orient our thinking.  It doesn't have all the answers, and it doesn't pretend to, but it's a good check for the driven parent :)

[regentrude]

When I was post-doc-ing, I decided to switch to teaching. Part of it was that I had realized that I had more passion for teaching than research, and part of it was that I couldn't summon what I had come to think of as the 'fake stress' that everybody in the university/industry/lab world seemed to have. The stress is real, but it's not about the kind of things that give me a sense of urgency - no life or death problems. People were alwasy running around in a panic over deadlines, wondering why I was calm, and I'd say that I put my talk together last week. There seemed to be a feeling that if you weren't stressed, you weren't busy enough. I hated it.

 

Interesting that you should mention it.

It has been my observation from my 20 years in academia that the "stressed-ness" seems to be a personality issue, and not actually related to the demands of the job per se. Among my colleagues, there are some who are always running around, are out of breath, don't "have time" to socialize or do anything besides work, and constantly emphasize that they don't have time, like a badge of honor. And then there are some who are calm, organized, available for an impromptu social get together, who make room for other things besides work in their lives. And there is absolutely no difference in the job requirements between the two groups, or in the level of achievement. In fact, some of the top achieving people belong to the second category.

 

I have come to the conclusion that some people will always be "crazy busy", no matter what they do - and others will lead a more relaxed life while still having a high productivity. I strongly suspect my DS will belong to the second category.

[dereksurfs]

This reminds me that my son is quite expressive in his online classes--in fact, in WHA's first Calc class, he got 5 points (something like squoosh balls??) for participation. He's laughing and typing and answering questions and making jokes with the other kids before class starts. So he can be expressive when he wants to be. 

 

He took the 16personalities.com test and got ENTP-A.( Extroverted Intuition, Introverted Thinking, Extroverted Feeling and Introverted Sensing)(the debater) which doesn't surprise me. He can be pretty argumentative lol. My husband is ENTJ-The Commander (no surprise there!!) and I am INTP.-A. Ironically, it is said that I do poorly in the caring profession-I am an acupuncturist, so that's interesting. I do get totally exhausted after a work shift.

 

I am going to research this a bit more.

 

Halycon,

 

That is so interesting about his social interactions with others online. It sounds like he *really* does thrive in that environment. I've noticed the same with our son as he seems to feed on that type of interaction with his peers. It may be in these times when he's doing something he's both interested in and knowledgeable about that the words just flow more naturally. 

 

When I look back to my teenage years, I was never much of a big talker unless I was with my friends talking about something I loved. I noticed the same with them. Surfing was my passion back then. So if that topic came up, I could talk up a storm. But sitting with my mom and discussing books, etc... was never a thing which came naturally nor something I really wanted to do.  She learned to live with that and we did have deeper conversations later in life. She was also very good about initiating our talks asking me about things I was interested in and then being a good listener.

 

That being said, is it somethings which should simply be accepted as boys just being boys? Or knowing that they typically have fewer words, should parents also attempt to cultivate greater communication skills? I guess that is kind of a philosophical question. There have been entire books written on the subject like this one - Boys of Few Words: Raising Our Sons to Communicate and Connect.

[regentrude]

That being said, is it somethings which should simply be accepted as boys just being boys? Or knowing that they typically have fewer words, should parents also attempt to cultivate greater communication skills? I guess that is kind of a philosophical question.

 

You raise an interesting point. But we may need to get into semantics and ask whether this is really a question of "communication skills" or communication preferences.

My introverted son of few words has a job where he does nothing but communicate: he is customer service specialist for a small company and answers customer questions about their orders. He is held in high esteem because he apparently is really good at this - so communication skills are clearly there. Adults outside the family comment on his eloquence and clear expression.

He just does not want to sit and chat with mom because he has more important things to do ;)

But I have, for example, been able to explain to him why it is important to me that he texts me upon arrival when he is driving long distances, or when his plans change - he understands that I need him to communicate, and it is no problem. I just don;t have a convincing explanation for why we need small talk :)

[Garga]

Garga-

I think part of me thought after all the hard work (enjoyable! but hard!) of schooling the younger years, the high school years would be a time to share knowledge, discuss, read books together, debate....it's what i had wanted my parents to do with me when i was a teen. and i was looking forward to this time with my son. so it's a loss, for me. 

 

 

I get it.  I read some pie in the sky homeschooling books when I started this journey 10 years ago, but now I realize they weren't very realistic for most students.  It is a loss.  Wistful is the word I use for myself.  I'm sorry you're in the same boat.

 

I think a lot of people on this thread have felt that sense of loss, too, but a number of them say it can improve as the students get older.

 

ETA: I was composing when Regentrude was writing, and I think she's right about not wanting to do small talk with mom.  I was just thinking the other day about that phrase "small talk" and how my son doesn't have any interest in it.  When I take him out to dinner one-on-one, he's happy to sit there in companionable silence for a good bit of the time.   :)

Edited January 8, 2017 by Garga

[Roadrunner]

I don't know. There seems to be the consensus on the board that unless your child is naturally driven, in which case it's OK if they work 10 hour days, we should back off. I really, really wish my parents who were capable but opted for hands off philosophy, would have pushed my behind more. Some kids need pushing, which I regard as guidance, especially at a confusing age of 14. So I would be absolutely not backing off my kid in such a situation. I am with your husband on this.

So now you can throw tomatoes at me.

[Halcyon]

I don't know. There seems to be the consensus on the board that unless your child is naturally driven, in which case it's OK if they work 10 hour days, we should back off. I really, really wish my parents who were capable but opted for hands off philosophy, would have pushed my behind more. Some kids need pushing, which I regard as guidance, especially at a confusing age of 14. So I would be absolutely not backing off my kid in such a situation. I am with your husband on this.

So now you can throw tomatoes at me.

 

 

I'll tell him that one of the boardies agrees with him and he'll be thrilled LOL. I am of two minds, as you all know since i go around and around on this. :)

[Garga]

I don't know. There seems to be the consensus on the board that unless your child is naturally driven, in which case it's OK if they work 10 hour days, we should back off. I really, really wish my parents who were capable but opted for hands off philosophy, would have pushed my behind more. Some kids need pushing, which I regard as guidance, especially at a confusing age of 14. So I would be absolutely not backing off my kid in such a situation. I am with your husband on this.

So now you can throw tomatoes at me.

 

 

The longer this thread goes on, the more nervous I get about my advice to back off.  I don't want it to be taken as letting the kid dangle without guidance, left to flounder and waft through life.  

 

But conversely, for me the Tiger Mom/NYC elite pushing is going too far.  I hate that sort of pushiness for kids. I know when I've been responding, I've been thinking of Chinese students who work from 7 in the morning until midnight. I know a group of them personally from the hosting of Chinese students we've done for the past few summers.  Those kids excel academically, but they wither in their spirits from the insanely high expectations. I'm not kidding that they do school work from 7 in the morning until midnight for months on end.  It's only a little less in the summer.

 

The NYC elite schools are the same as the Chinese schools.  Sooo much pressure on the students. I was responding to that in my posts.

 

But a good solid hand on the back guiding the student and some solid rules and expectations aren't a bad thing.  Setting high expectations and teaching the student how to meet them is good.  It's all in finding a good balance and not crushing the student you have.  

[madteaparty]

I don't know. There seems to be the consensus on the board that unless your child is naturally driven, in which case it's OK if they work 10 hour days, we should back off. I really, really wish my parents who were capable but opted for hands off philosophy, would have pushed my behind more. Some kids need pushing, which I regard as guidance, especially at a confusing age of 14. So I would be absolutely not backing off my kid in such a situation. I am with your husband on this.

So now you can throw tomatoes at me.

The only work worth doing is the self-driven one, don't you know. Turn off all the lights until the interest emerges :) Otherwise tiger mom, pushy, helicopter, etc etc

[dereksurfs]

You raise an interesting point. But we may need to get into semantics and ask whether this is really a question of "communication skills" or communication preferences.

My introverted son of few words has a job where he does nothing but communicate: he is customer service specialist for a small company and answers customer questions about their orders. He is held in high esteem because he apparently is really good at this - so communication skills are clearly there. Adults outside the family comment on his eloquence and clear expression.

He just does not want to sit and chat with mom because he has more important things to do ;)

But I have, for example, been able to explain to him why it is important to me that he texts me upon arrival when he is driving long distances, or when his plans change - he understands that I need him to communicate, and it is no problem. I just don;t have a convincing explanation for why we need small talk :)

 

Yes, I understand what you are saying. That was similar to my experience growing up as a teenage boy. I was very conversational in certain situations when discussing things that I was really interested in. Conversely, I also spent a lot of time saying very little as I liked quiet and reflective times. Those times helped me both focus and relax. In fact, now that I think about it, I'm still like that today. My dw can attest to this. ;) I definitely enjoy reading and researching topics of interest more than long talks or small talk. Now if there is a goal to work on something important which involves discussing all the finer point, I'm all for that. I wonder if this also speaks to some of the ways men and women communicate differently, generally speaking? Your son's communication sounds very much like mine at work. I have a very technical job as a software engineer. Yet one of my roles is to act as a liaison between management, customers and other engineers. This is something which just comes naturally.

[quark]

I don't know. There seems to be the consensus on the board that unless your child is naturally driven, in which case it's OK if they work 10 hour days, we should back off. I really, really wish my parents who were capable but opted for hands off philosophy, would have pushed my behind more. Some kids need pushing, which I regard as guidance, especially at a confusing age of 14. So I would be absolutely not backing off my kid in such a situation. I am with your husband on this.

So now you can throw tomatoes at me.

 

No tomatoes from me. There are some things I will push whether or not DS likes it. There are some areas where I don't have to push but actually need to pull him back because of a real risk of leading to lack of sleep or just working blindly without stopping to think about efficiency. But if I push I make sure I explain why I am doing so (and the reason is never "because this was the way I had to do it").

 

Balance looks different for everyone and that's the impression I am getting from the thread so far.

 

Editing to add: I think the lesson I am learning is not not to push. It's not to control. And it's not one of those lessons where I have it down pat. It's not a switch. It's constant fiddling with a dial.

Edited January 8, 2017 by quark

[Roadrunner]

The only work worth doing is the self-driven one, don't you know. Turn off all the lights until the interest emerges :) Otherwise tiger mom, pushy, helicopter, etc etc

Yes, that seems to be the attitude of everybody I encounter in real life as well as this board.

I think kids who know what they want and are driven are really few. I think people of exceptional talent often find their way in life on their own, but most of us don't have kids of exceptional talent and drive. Anectodal evidence of so and so not doing well in high school and then finding himself at a later time in life is applicable but not for the majority. Most of us require hard work for every step we take in our journey. Hard work isn't always pleasant.

Our options aren't 14 hour workdays a la South Korea (or teenage suicides in Pali Alto) versus backing off completely. There is a very big band in between and finding your spot on it is really a result of your family culture. Its OK to have realistic but high standards and push your kids to achieve them. We like tigers here.

[regentrude]

Yes, I understand what you are saying. That was similar to my experience growing up as a teenage boy. I was very conversational in certain situations when discussing things that I was really interested in. Conversely, I also spent a lot of time saying very little as I liked quiet and reflective times. Those times helped me both focus and relax. In fact, now that I think about it, I'm still like that today. My dw can attest to this. ;) I definitely enjoy reading and researching topics of interest more than long talks or small talk. Now if there is a goal to work on something important which involves discussing all the finer point, I'm all for that. I wonder if this also speaks to some of the ways men and women communicate differently, generally speaking? Your son's communication sounds very much like mine at work. I have a very technical job as a software engineer. Yet one of my roles is to act as a liaison between management, customers and other engineers. This is something which just comes naturally.

 

I will get tomatoes thrown, but yes, I believe there are certain underlying communication patterns that are different between men and women. The bonding-over-shared-experience-and-getting-on-the-same-plane-through-small-talk seems on average a more female way to relate. There is some literature to back that up.

So, my personal experience agrees with yours - while there are, of course, still different levels of extrovertedness/talkativeness within the male population.

[Garga]

Yes, that seems to be the attitude of everybody I encounter in real life as well as this board.

I think kids who know what they want and are driven are really few. I think people of exceptional talent often find their way in life on their own, but most of us don't have kids of exceptional talent and drive. Anectodal evidence of so and so not doing well in high school and then finding himself at a later time in life is applicable but not for the majority. Most of us require hard work for every step we take in our journey. Hard work isn't always pleasant.

Our options aren't 14 hour workdays a la South Korea (or teenage suicides in Pali Alto) versus backing off completely. There is a very big band in between and finding your spot on it is really a result of your family culture. Its OK to have realistic but high standards and push your kids to achieve them. We like tigers here.

 

 

Yes, but the OP's husband is pushing for the Palo Alto, 14 hour workday model.  That's what people are responding to on this particular thread.

 

My ds14 does 2 hours of biology and 2 hours of history every day, plus 4 other classes that are about an hour each every day.

 

I insist on As or at least high Bs on everything he does.  If he doesn't get them, we start over until he does.  

 

He also works a small job (under 10 hours a week) at McDonalds and bakes cookies for a homeless outreach at our church about 4 hours during the week.

 

He takes karate classes twice a week.

 

So obviously, I don't believe in letting him slack off.  He spent 4 hours today on some homework on a Saturday. In another thread the other day I tallied up his school, work, karate, and cookie baking and he puts in a good 60 hour week, some weeks more, some weeks less.  Plus he gets 10-11 hours of sleep a night.

 

I believe in pushing kids a reasonable amount, but alarms went off when I read what the OP's DH is pushing for.

Edited January 8, 2017 by Garga

[regentrude]

I don't know. There seems to be the consensus on the board that unless your child is naturally driven, in which case it's OK if they work 10 hour days, we should back off. I really, really wish my parents who were capable but opted for hands off philosophy, would have pushed my behind more. Some kids need pushing, which I regard as guidance, especially at a confusing age of 14. So I would be absolutely not backing off my kid in such a situation. I am with your husband on this.

So now you can throw tomatoes at me.

 

But this 14 y/o is already taking calculus. So, not a slacker, but working a few years ahead of the cohort.. Should he have been pushed so he could be taking differential equations at age 14? For what purpose?

Edited January 8, 2017 by regentrude

[Halcyon]

But this 14 y/o is already taking calculus. So, not a slacker, but working a few years ahead of the cohort.. Should he have been pushed so he could be taking differential equations at age 14? For what purpose?

 

To be fair--neither he nor i pushed to get to calculus early. he just worked consistently and he is where he is. he is not a math prodigy by any means, but does like math and seems to get it quickly.

 

i am talking more about internal drive, which seemingly cannot be cultivated externally, but...can it be encouraged?

[...................]

The only work worth doing is the self-driven one, don't you know. Turn off all the lights until the interest emerges :) Otherwise tiger mom, pushy, helicopter, etc etc

No one is saying that gentle reminders, studying WITH your child, gently modeling a love of learning and self-betterment, driving your kid or suggesting he sign up for things or even paying for tutors is a bad thing.  You put up a straw man here.

 

What I, and I think many others here are saying, is that not every kid is destined for Yale or Columbia and some dreams have to die hard so that you can dream your child's dreams with him/her and help/guide/and yes occasionally push in THAT direction.

 

He sounds like a smart kid who is acheiving! He is taking Calc in 9th grade after all.  To me, that is not a cause for concern or worry.  :)  (as I said before, assuming he has a life, interacts with humans, showers every day and does have some internal motivation overall. )  :)

[Halcyon]

Yes, but the OP's husband is pushing for the Palo Alto, 14 hour workday model.  

 

 

OP here, and that is not correct. He does not want our child killing himself. He just wants him to show more initiative, study harder and more diligently and be a bit more focused on doing well.

 

My dh values family time immensely and makes time for vacation, taking the kids out on the weekend to do fun things and he does not want a stressed out child. He wants a hardworking child. There's a difference.

[Halcyon]

Yes, but the OP's husband is pushing for the Palo Alto, 14 hour workday model.  That's what people are responding to on this particular thread.

 

My ds14 does 2 hours of biology and 2 hours of history every day, plus 4 other classes that are about an hour each every day.

 

I insist on As or at least high Bs on everything he does.  If he doesn't get them, we start over until he does.  

 

He also works a small job (under 10 hours a week) at McDonalds and bakes cookies for a homeless outreach at our church about 4 hours during the week.

 

He takes karate classes twice a week.

 

So obviously, I don't believe in letting him slack off.  He spent 4 hours today on some homework on a Saturday. In another thread the other day I tallied up his school, work, karate, and cookie baking and he puts in a good 60 hour week, some weeks more, some weeks less.  Plus he gets 10-11 hours of sleep a night.

 

I believe in pushing kids a reasonable amount, but alarms went off when I read what the OP's DH is pushing for.

 

 

And I think if my 14 year old were doing what your 14 year old is doing, I would absolutely say it's MORE than enough, and DH would too. Really. I didnt insist on As during his brief experience in public, but when DS14 slipped and was getting a C in one of his public school classes, NONE of us were happy, DS included.

 

Overall, in fact, he did not do fantastic in public school for the few months he was there in 9th (he is coming home for 2nd semester and NOT because he wasn't doing well but because he was miserable).

 

I don't know whether to attribute his not-so-great grades to the newness, the demands of the teachers, the poor teaching (yes, it was poor), the dullness of the lectures, the never ending testing, the overall misery of DS (he hated it), or what, but he got a couple A's and mostly B's.

 

Inevitably, DH and I insisted he hadn't worked hard enough. DH said the grades were unacceptable, but of course, they are what they are. It revealed a few things to him and us. What good is it to say something is 'unacceptable' when he can't redo it--in our homeschool, we did what you did--we would rinse and repeat until he got an A, period. And that's what we'll continue to do--that doesn't seem unreasonable at all. Homeschooling provides the time for that. Public school doesn't (another reason we both hated it).

 

Edited January 8, 2017 by Halcyon

[Garga]

OP here, and that is not correct. He does not want our child killing himself. He just wants him to show more initiative, study harder and more diligently and be a bit more focused on doing well.

 

My dh values family time immensely and makes time for vacation, taking the kids out on the weekend to do fun things and he does not want a stressed out child. He wants a hardworking child. There's a difference.

 

 

I re-read the original post because I thought it did say that--that your dh wanted to go down the road of his NYC friends.  

 

I see that you have a parentheses explaining that while your dh referred to the NYC friends, he didn't want to go that far.  I totally didn't see that part.  I only saw the part where he was referring to how his NYC friends handle things and thought he did want to go that far.  

 

I am sorry for misreading.  

Edited January 8, 2017 by Garga

[Garga]

And I think if my 14 year old were doing what your 14 year old is doing, I would absolutely say it's MORE than enough, and DH would too. Really. I don't insist on As but when DS14 slipped and was getting a C in one of his public school classes, NONE of us were happy, DS included.

 

 

 

Yes, I think I've been barking up the wrong tree. This thread has made me uneasy.  I have felt like my posts weren't hitting the mark and wasn't sure why. I've felt at odds with you and was wondering why.  I can see now that I was coming at the issue with an incorrect assumption and so the things I was saying weren't applicable to what's actually going on. 

 

I think I'll stop posting now!  :)  

[madteaparty]

No one is saying that gentle reminders, studying WITH your child, gently modeling a love of learning and self-betterment, driving your kid or suggesting he sign up for things or even paying for tutors is a bad thing. You put up a straw man here.

 

What I, and I think many others here are saying, is that not every kid is destined for Yale or Columbia and some dreams have to die hard so that you can dream your child's dreams with him/her and help/guide/and yes occasionally push in THAT direction.

 

He sounds like a smart kid who is acheiving! He is taking Calc in 9th grade after all. To me, that is not a cause for concern or worry. :) (as I said before, assuming he has a life, interacts with humans, showers every day and does have some internal motivation overall. ) :)

I don't think the parents here are saying Yale/Columbia or else. I think the OP is using that as one possible illustration of results of a driven high school career. As has been pointed out, there is a middle way between aiming for lottery schools and just turning off the electronics in the hope that the kid lunges madly for the bookcase. What I am saying is that internal drive is nice to have. i think letting the kid be in the hope that the spark might descend might be a little negligent. Sometimes kids don't know what they don't know, and it's our job to guide the way a bit.

I mean there's so many awake hours a day. I don't tell my kid specifically how to fill them, but If the kid's interest is a staring contest with the dog, that is an okay use of time?

Edited January 8, 2017 by madteaparty

[Halcyon]

Yes, you can encourage and support intrinsic motivation, through maximising a sense of autonomy, and encouraging the work needed to develop a sense  of competence. 

 

The trouble comes when you want them to be intrinsically motivated about something externally imposed. How do you give autonomy, at the same time as taking it away ? It's a bit of a quandry. 

 

 

You've reminded me of something. In his Alg 2 class last year with Wilson Hill, he was VERY self motivated and directed and I was very hands off. The teacher LOVED him, and told both him and me what a wonderful addition he was to the class. He did very well, pushed himself very hard, and loved every minute of it, really. 

 

What was different about this class? One--I wasn't the teacher. Two-he loved the genial competitiveness amongst the students, Three--he LOVED the kind, helpful , caring teacher. That last was the most important. In public, the teachers were sometimes outright unkind, and he was so sad. He didn't understand why they seemed to WANT him to do poorly (I know that wasn't the case, but that's how he felt). 

 

So having a caring, small, friendly class where the students are working hard and the teachers are pushing you, but the emphasis is on GETTING the material, not just getting a good grade--that seems to be key.

 

Huh. You totally just reminded me of how self motivated he was in that class. Thank you!

[Roadrunner]

But this 14 y/o is already taking calculus. So, not a slacker, but working a few years ahead of the cohort.. Should he have been pushed so he could be taking differential equations at age 14? For what purpose?

What I am saying is if a child spends four hours a day on three different languages because that child is self driven, we all seem to think that's OK, but if a parent tells his kid to put in that amount of time into those languages because that child's long term goals would benefit from it (say a kid wants to go into foreign policy), than we consider the work an "abuse" in some way because it isn't self driven. When a child reaches Calculus isn't a topic of discussion right now. We are debating if we should let kids do the minimum if they so chose as oppose to pushing them to do their best, whatever that best might be. If we should be more proactive in their schooling, or to put it otherwise "be on top" of them. Lots of kids on this board work very hard, and you see parents are always so careful to say that it's self driven as if I don't know, we are scared to be judged.