Math help for struggling 3rd grader

[happy7]

I have been using BJU with my 3rd grader, and while I like it for my other kids, it often reduces my 3rd grader to tears. He is an auditory/kinesthetic learner who needs lots of review (but can't handle too many problems in one day). I'm thinking of switching him to Teaching Textbooks for next year, but I don't want to spend the money to switch midyear. I would rather not finish the year with this many struggles, though. I think he sometimes gets it, but other times not. So he just doesn't finish his work. And he cries pretty often, sometimes because the work is too hard for him, other times because he just can't seem to focus and it takes him a long time to complete it. (It is only one page front and back, and sometimes I only have him do the odds if I feel it's something he understands).  He will seem to understand a concept, but then forget it days later.  I can't tell whether he needs something easier than what we are doing, or if he needs more review. It seems like adding more problems to review would mean he takes even longer to complete his work. But maybe that's true because it's too hard? I don't know. But I could use suggestions for (1) something I can start midyear without too much difficulty and (2) whether or not this kid might need the spiral approach. I think if we switch to the spiral approach I don't want something that is known for being ahead of grade level. 

 

Also, are there video lessons for this age somewhere that might help? (Not BJU, though, because they're $300. And probably not Math U See at this point due to cost and the fact that we are so far into the year.)

 

Help? 

[YsgolYGair]

Before I could give a better answer, I need to know how you are teaching this -  are you going through the steps in the teacher's manual with him for all lessons, and have you been going through them all along, each year? Are you using the manipulatives packet as directed? Are you using the Reviews book? Are you utilizing the cd fully - with the remedial teaching pages? How long has he not been finishing his work?

 

Having tried several math programs, and dealt with tears as well from my ds, and having been a math teacher and tutor for many years besides, my initial thought is that I don't believe switching curricula is going to be the answer. But let me hear back from you on these things before I suggest anything else. 

[happy7]

Yes I use the TE. Not for every. single. lesson because I can teach much of it without the TE. But I do use it, especially when it's clear he is having trouble. We review math facts, etc., in other ways as well. I use a mix of the manipulatives provided and better quality manipulatives (ie, not paper) that I own. I don't use the Reviews book (although we have it) because just getting through a lesson is a lot for him. Adding extra problems to this curriculum doesn't seem like what he needs, unless maybe we used the reviews in lieu of a lesson periodically, but then we would not finish in a year. This has been an ongoing problem with BJU with this child for more than a year. And really he has difficulty with math in general (we tried Math in Focus last year, and although he did finish his work and had fewer tears, he had difficulty and I had to invest a lot of time with him - it was just too advanced for him). My other 4 kids use BJU and have been fine. Bored sometimes, but fine. 

[YsgolYGair]

Being honest, I don't know of a curriculum that is better for struggling math students than BJU, because of all of the helps and support that come with the curriculum, and because it is one of the slower progressing curricula. So I really can't think of what curriculum would be better, and I don't believe that a self-teaching program like TT is the answer for a struggling student. Struggling students need more personal interaction, not less.

 

It sounds to me like he's at a level that's too advanced for his current understanding. I wouldn't worry about finishing a grade level book, or about being at grade level. I would aim to find out where he is comfortable, and go back to that place and start again from there, even if that means going back a year or more. The Reviews book and the Reteaching pages on the cd would be ideal for this. If you take him back to wherever he is comfortable, even if it's the previous year, instead of doing the work text again, use the Reviews book. It has more general review to give a bit of that spiral feel. Also, print out the Reteaching pages and start going through those as necessary along with the lessons - they're very struggling-learner friendly, very incremental. 

 

As someone who's worked with struggling math students most of my working life, I'll just say that it's a fact of life that there's alot of time involved helping some students succeed in math. So I would just prepare to spend 45 minutes everyday working with just him. If he starts to get overwhelmed, take a break, but come back to it and finish, because he clearly does need the practice of finishing all the problems. Above all, keep yourself positive and encouraging, and pray before each lesson, because God can do great things, even in our math lessons. :)  

[Chris in VA]

No experience with your curriculum, but I just wanted to agree with the pp's excellent advice.

A couple little suggestions--

Although it may stress you out, don't worry about needing to get thru the year's math in a year. Rather, go slowly enough to keep your child's confidence level high. Stress makes learning new things much more difficult. Let him get his confidence back--you want him to say, internally, I am good at math because I can work hard and get it.

Also, pausing to review and solidify now will pay off big later. BUT,it is okay to just introduce some topics and not get to mastery before moving on, as they will come up again later. Not everything, of course, but some things. Sometimes just giving the brain a few months to mature and then reintroducing a topic can yield big results.

3rd grade is a great time to actually use math that they already have, so cooking, games, measuring for building, etc., can provide needed review while the brain catches up.

Edited January 3, 2017 by Chris in VA

[OneStepAtATime]

I agree with everyone else, TT might help or it might not if he is really struggling.  He may be placed too high.  He may need to go back and review and solidify gaps before trying to move forward.  If BJU is not working, though, it may very well be a poor fit AND he may also need to review AND go slowly.  A solid foundation usually works better than pushing forward and demoralizing a student.

 

You might consider something like CTC math if you think he would do well with a computer based program that includes explanation videos.  Taking a break from the program that is causing stress and tears may help him to kind of "reset".  CTC would give him access to all math from Kindergarten through Pre-Calculus.  He could start with some 2nd or even 1st grade material in areas he is struggling and see if that helps him solidify any gaps.  Once he is solid on those areas he could then do some lessons at the 3rd grade level in those specific areas and see how he does there.  He can do the lessons as many times as he needs until the material makes sense.  The lessons are pretty short, the lay out is easy to see (not cluttered), and the explanations are usually pretty good.  Sometimes I have to supplement with youtube videos but not often.  We use CTC as a support program but it could be used as a main program.  I have a math notebook for both kids that includes scratch paper, quad paper, a ruler, a compass, a protractor and erasable pens.  Even though this program is computer based, the student will need to do some work on paper (which I think is a good idea).  The kids and I have liked being able to go to lower levels to fill in areas we are struggling and we also love that in areas we are doing well we can leap forward (DD is good at geometry and rushed through all the geometry lessons with relish).  The problems change every time so your son won't be doing the exact same problem each time (I think TT repeats the same problems and you have to buy each level separately).

 

you could at least maybe try it, give him a change of pace, then reassess for next year.  And it is sometimes on sale through Homeschool Buyer's Co-op.  Just a thought anyway...

 

https://www.homeschoolbuyersco-op.org/ctc-math/?c=1

[happy7]

I can't remember off the top of my head some of the specific things he has struggled with (Christmas break brain!). I think two digit subtraction with borrowing has been a challenge for sure. Word problems - even very simple ones - are very hard for him. I also found out today that he doesn't remember how to measure a line (thought we had that one down). New concepts this year have been tough for him. It's more the fact that new concepts take longer to stick than with my other kids. And he gets frustrated, so he just gives up. He also has a hard time sticking with a task (ANY task). Math especially. 

 

One factor in this, too, is that he is an older 3rd grader. He has a late birthday, so I chose not to start K with him until he was 6. So he is already 9, which means he probably doesn't need much extra brain development time. He needs to come back to stuff often enough to make it stick. 

 

It's interesting to hear that spiral isn't helpful for a struggling kid. I thought the constant review is what helps kids and is more gentle than mastery. BJU is a mix, I think. 

 

Maybe what I will do is start this semester with the reviews book and see how it goes. I could also add in some Khan Academy. I think he would benefit from hearing it from someone other than me. Really he needs someone with the luxury of sitting with him while he completes all of his schoolwork, but I have 4 other kids ranging from 8th to K, so that's not possible. That's part of why I thought TT could help. Hearing the instruction and having the chance to do problems multiple times until he gets it correct sounds like it could help him. But I haven't used it so I don't know. 

[happy7]

I agree with everyone else, TT might help or it might not if he is really struggling.  He may be placed too high.  He may need to go back and review and solidify gaps before trying to move forward.  If BJU is not working, though, it may very well be a poor fit AND he may also need to review AND go slowly.  A solid foundation usually works better than pushing forward and demoralizing a student.

 

You might consider something like CTC math if you think he would do well with a computer based program that includes explanation videos.  Taking a break from the program that is causing stress and tears may help him to kind of "reset".  CTC would give him access to all math from Kindergarten through Pre-Calculus.  He could start with some 2nd or even 1st grade material in areas he is struggling and see if that helps him solidify any gaps.  Once he is solid on those areas he could then do some lessons at the 3rd grade level in those specific areas and see how he does there.  He can do the lessons as many times as he needs until the material makes sense.  The lessons are pretty short, the lay out is easy to see (not cluttered), and the explanations are usually pretty good.  Sometimes I have to supplement with youtube videos but not often.  We use CTC as a support program but it could be used as a main program.  I have a math notebook for both kids that includes scratch paper, quad paper, a ruler, a compass, a protractor and erasable pens.  Even though this program is computer based, the student will need to do some work on paper (which I think is a good idea).  The kids and I have liked being able to go to lower levels to fill in areas we are struggling and we also love that in areas we are doing well we can leap forward (DD is good at geometry and rushed through all the geometry lessons with relish).  The problems change every time so your son won't be doing the exact same problem each time (I think TT repeats the same problems and you have to buy each level separately).

 

you could at least maybe try it, give him a change of pace, then reassess for next year.  And it is sometimes on sale through Homeschool Buyer's Co-op.  Just a thought anyway...

 

https://www.homeschoolbuyersco-op.org/ctc-math/?c=1

 

I was just looking at CTC math today - do you think the Australian accent is hard to understand? Do your kids just get used to it? I hadn't thought of using it as a supplement, but maybe we could mix it in to break things up and give him some reinforcement that comes from a different angle.  

[OneStepAtATime]

I can't remember off the top of my head some of the specific things he has struggled with (Christmas break brain!). I think two digit subtraction with borrowing has been a challenge for sure. Word problems - even very simple ones - are very hard for him. I also found out today that he doesn't remember how to measure a line (thought we had that one down). New concepts this year have been tough for him. It's more the fact that new concepts take longer to stick than with my other kids. And he gets frustrated, so he just gives up. He also has a hard time sticking with a task (ANY task). Math especially. 

 

One factor in this, too, is that he is an older 3rd grader. He has a late birthday, so I chose not to start K with him until he was 6. So he is already 9, which means he probably doesn't need much extra brain development time. He needs to come back to stuff often enough to make it stick. 

 

It's interesting to hear that spiral isn't helpful for a struggling kid. I thought the constant review is what helps kids and is more gentle than mastery. BJU is a mix, I think. 

 

Maybe what I will do is start this semester with the reviews book and see how it goes. I could also add in some Khan Academy. I think he would benefit from hearing it from someone other than me. Really he needs someone with the luxury of sitting with him while he completes all of his schoolwork, but I have 4 other kids ranging from 8th to K, so that's not possible. That's part of why I thought TT could help. Hearing the instruction and having the chance to do problems multiple times until he gets it correct sounds like it could help him. But I haven't used it so I don't know. 

Wait, maybe I missed a post but did someone actually say spiral doesn't help struggling students?  I disagree.  Or maybe you were referring to BJU being more spiral with mastery and thinking your son should be doing better than he is?  

 

I think this depends on the student and the underlying cause of their struggles.  Some need more mastery based but a lot of struggling kids do better with spiral.  And some need both.  It also depends on what you mean by spiral, though.  CLE math, for instance, reviews many concept in every lesson and rotates through which ones on a regular basis.  It is a very tight spiral.  For some, there is too much review.  Easy to adjust.  Just cross out some.  For others, all of that tight spiral review is absolutely necessary.  CLE has been our main math program for a while now because of the hugely helpful constant spiral review.

 

Honestly, though, my kids needed a combination to really do better in math.  DD especially has always struggled in math.  They did FAR better with CLE combined with CTC and BA.  Does that seem like a lot of math programs?  Yeah, maybe, but they each have filled a definite need.

 

CTC has been great for seeing a video explanation (and the Australian accent has not really been an issue) and being able to review troublesome concepts at a more basic level then move up the levels of difficulty in that specific skill set/knowledge area without being stuck in one math level.  Having that ability to really master a particular area at many levels has been great for them and they love having that control with CTC.  They can choose to go all the way back to kinder if they feel they need to for dealing with a specific trouble spot, then zoom ahead through the levels until they hit an area where they need to slow down.  All the topics are organized basically in the same way so it is easy to find particular topics at every level.  DD sometimes redoes areas that she enjoys (and this is my math hating, math struggling child) because the problems are always new and she finds some of the lessons fun.

 

And BA was good for helping with the underlying concepts at a greater depth, plus having a very different approach helped them grasp the concepts better.  DD and DS found the very different approach interesting.  We went slow, did the problems together, and took time to let things sink in.

 

But CLE was what got the kids receiving enough tight spiral review that things finally started to truly stick.  They absolutely 100% needed that review.  

 

FWIW, my kids only got a very loose, very long spiral review in brick and mortar school.  By the time the textbook came back around to review a concept again they had already forgotten it.  They hadn't had enough review in the first place to actually solidify the concept and then there wasn't enough continued review for it to stick long term.  

 

You might look at CLE but I would give the placement test.  It runs ahead of some math programs.

[YsgolYGair]

I agree with those who say that spiral is better for struggling math students or for those who forget concepts easily, which is why I recommended the reviews book. My oldest struggles with math as well - we had tears with Singapore, Math Mammoth, and MEP. BJU, with its stories and gentler approach, has been our solution, hence the reason why I say that I don't personally know of anything more suited to the struggling learner. Everything else I've ever used has been more rigorous.

 

That being said, I realised at some point this year that my son was needing more practice with math facts and more review, so I pulled out the A Beka along side the BJU, and now he does two math lessons a day. It's the best of both worlds. That's what we've done anyway. 

[YsgolYGair]

I would disagree that spiral is better for all struggling students. Yes, it's great for those who forget previously learned things easily. But, I don't find it best for children who struggle to grasp the concepts, period. For kids who really just need to be able to focus on learning one thing at a time.

 

Noted.

[Ellie]

I have been using BJU with my 3rd grader, and while I like it for my other kids, it often reduces my 3rd grader to tears. He is an auditory/kinesthetic learner who needs lots of review (but can't handle too many problems in one day). I'm thinking of switching him to Teaching Textbooks for next year, but I don't want to spend the money to switch midyear. I would rather not finish the year with this many struggles, though. I think he sometimes gets it, but other times not. So he just doesn't finish his work. And he cries pretty often, sometimes because the work is too hard for him, other times because he just can't seem to focus and it takes him a long time to complete it. (It is only one page front and back, and sometimes I only have him do the odds if I feel it's something he understands).  He will seem to understand a concept, but then forget it days later.  I can't tell whether he needs something easier than what we are doing, or if he needs more review. It seems like adding more problems to review would mean he takes even longer to complete his work. But maybe that's true because it's too hard? I don't know. But I could use suggestions for (1) something I can start midyear without too much difficulty and (2) whether or not this kid might need the spiral approach. I think if we switch to the spiral approach I don't want something that is known for being ahead of grade level. 

 

Also, are there video lessons for this age somewhere that might help? (Not BJU, though, because they're $300. And probably not Math U See at this point due to cost and the fact that we are so far into the year.)

 

Help? 

 

I don't put much stock in spiral vs mastery. There's so much more involved than that. If he's kinesthetic (which would be the opposite of auditory), then he needs something like Miquon or MUS. OTOH, Rod and Staff's math series might be a better fit; it uses visuals, not manipulatives, but you do the teaching during the oral classtime, when all concepts are taught in little steps, and then they practiced continually in the seatwork.

 

If BJUP's math makes your ds cry, then put it away. Nothing is worth that.

[Sahamamama2]

Being honest, I don't know of a curriculum that is better for struggling math students than BJU, because of all of the helps and support that come with the curriculum, and because it is one of the slower progressing curricula. So I really can't think of what curriculum would be better, and I don't believe that a self-teaching program like TT is the answer for a struggling student. Struggling students need more personal interaction, not less.

 

It sounds to me like he's at a level that's too advanced for his current understanding. I wouldn't worry about finishing a grade level book, or about being at grade level. I would aim to find out where he is comfortable, and go back to that place and start again from there, even if that means going back a year or more. The Reviews book and the Reteaching pages on the cd would be ideal for this. If you take him back to wherever he is comfortable, even if it's the previous year, instead of doing the work text again, use the Reviews book. It has more general review to give a bit of that spiral feel. Also, print out the Reteaching pages and start going through those as necessary along with the lessons - they're very struggling-learner friendly, very incremental. 

 

As someone who's worked with struggling math students most of my working life, I'll just say that it's a fact of life that there's alot of time involved helping some students succeed in math. So I would just prepare to spend 45 minutes everyday working with just him. If he starts to get overwhelmed, take a break, but come back to it and finish, because he clearly does need the practice of finishing all the problems. Above all, keep yourself positive and encouraging, and pray before each lesson, because God can do great things, even in our math lessons. :)

 

:iagree: 100%. I was going to say most of this, but hey, this is so well-said! :)

 

I would focus less on completing lessons and/or staying "on-track." Instead, focus more on reteaching and review. I agree with YsgolYgair, that you could aim at a certain amount of math time-on-task each day, even if you have to break it up into 15 minute chunks. You might find the sweet spot for your son to be about 30 minutes or 45 minutes or 20 minutes twice, or whatever. Have something else lined up to transition to, as if it's no big deal to drop math for a few minutes and come back to it. Then, while doing math, if you see him start to get overwhelmed, just push it aside, do the next thing, and come back to math again. Try to keep yourself from tensing up when it's time to teach him math, too. I know it can be hard, especially when we know that math is what stresses out the student. But he needs you to be the calm, confident voice of reassurance that, yes, it can be done, and it will be done, and you are going to give him the time he needs to master math for a lifetime.

[Sahamamama2]

I can't remember off the top of my head some of the specific things he has struggled with (Christmas break brain!). I think two digit subtraction with borrowing has been a challenge for sure. Word problems - even very simple ones - are very hard for him. I also found out today that he doesn't remember how to measure a line (thought we had that one down). New concepts this year have been tough for him. It's more the fact that new concepts take longer to stick than with my other kids. And he gets frustrated, so he just gives up. He also has a hard time sticking with a task (ANY task). Math especially. 

 

One factor in this, too, is that he is an older 3rd grader. He has a late birthday, so I chose not to start K with him until he was 6. So he is already 9, which means he probably doesn't need much extra brain development time. He needs to come back to stuff often enough to make it stick. 

 

It's interesting to hear that spiral isn't helpful for a struggling kid. I thought the constant review is what helps kids and is more gentle than mastery. BJU is a mix, I think. 

 

Maybe what I will do is start this semester with the reviews book and see how it goes. I could also add in some Khan Academy. I think he would benefit from hearing it from someone other than me. Really he needs someone with the luxury of sitting with him while he completes all of his schoolwork, but I have 4 other kids ranging from 8th to K, so that's not possible. That's part of why I thought TT could help. Hearing the instruction and having the chance to do problems multiple times until he gets it correct sounds like it could help him. But I haven't used it so I don't know. 

 

If you wanted to see how this works in an inexpensive way, you might consider trying out CLE Math. You can download the diagnostic (placement) test, administer and score them, and have a feel for where to place your son. With CLE, you can try even just one Light Unit, to see how it goes, before shelling out hundreds of dollars on a new math program. We switched from Horizons Math to CLE Math a few years ago, and have been very happy with it. There is certainly enough repetition in CLE Math to "make things stick." It is easy to slow it down a bit, and easy to accelerate when the student "gets" it. HTH.

 

https://www.clp.org/store/by_subject/4

 

Diagnostic Tests:

 

https://www.clp.org/store/by_grade/21

[happy7]

If you wanted to see how this works in an inexpensive way, you might consider trying out CLE Math. You can download the diagnostic (placement) test, administer and score them, and have a feel for where to place your son. With CLE, you can try even just one Light Unit, to see how it goes, before shelling out hundreds of dollars on a new math program. We switched from Horizons Math to CLE Math a few years ago, and have been very happy with it. There is certainly enough repetition in CLE Math to "make things stick." It is easy to slow it down a bit, and easy to accelerate when the student "gets" it. HTH.

 

https://www.clp.org/store/by_subject/4

 

Diagnostic Tests:

 

https://www.clp.org/store/by_grade/21

Just from looking at the sample briefly, I like the way CLE works. It's tempting. I'll see how he does on the diagnostic test tomorrow. I especially like that it assigns things like fact practice at the beginning of the lesson right in the workbook for the student to see.

 

One more question for the hive: I found Math Mammoth 3 on my hard drive today (I thought it was lost!). Any thoughts on giving that a try before spending money on something new?  I bought it to use with one of my older kids but then didn't end up using it. I wouldn't expect him to be independent with it. But I'm concerned about it not having enough review (which it seems like he needs more of, not less of). And I doubt we would continue with MM beyond this semester (it's not intuitive for me to teach in the higher grades - tried 6th and it didn't go so well.) Could I use MM as a supplement to whatever I settle on doing with him (CLE or sticking with BJU)? Is that even possible with MM?

[OneStepAtATime]

Just from looking at the sample briefly, I like the way CLE works. It's tempting. I'll see how he does on the diagnostic test tomorrow. I especially like that it assigns things like fact practice at the beginning of the lesson right in the workbook for the student to see.

 

One more question for the hive: I found Math Mammoth 3 on my hard drive today (I thought it was lost!). Any thoughts on giving that a try before spending money on something new?  I bought it to use with one of my older kids but then didn't end up using it. I wouldn't expect him to be independent with it. But I'm concerned about it not having enough review (which it seems like he needs more of, not less of). And I doubt we would continue with MM beyond this semester (it's not intuitive for me to teach in the higher grades - tried 6th and it didn't go so well.) Could I use MM as a supplement to whatever I settle on doing with him (CLE or sticking with BJU)? Is that even possible with MM?

MM works beautifully for some kids/parents and not so great for others.  It was not successful for my kids but it might be for yours.  Since you own it you could give it a try and see how well he does.

 

If you still want to also look at CLE you might still give the diagnostic test (it can be long so you might want to break it up over two days for a more accurate assessment).  FWIW, the first CLE light unit of every level after kinder is a targeted review of the previous level so if he was borderline you could just run him through the first light unit of the next level up, going slowly, and see if he does well with that before committing to either level for purchase.  

 

If you do eventually decide to go with CLE I recommend the TM over the answer key.  Much easier to grade from, gives you suggestions for what to do if the student struggles, includes additional tests/materials at the back that can be used, and makes it MUCH easier to go back and find previous material if you need the student to review something after they have finished a light unit.   I also strongly recommend their flash cards.  They are set up in a very targeted way that I wholeheartedly love.

[happy7]

MM works beautifully for some kids/parents and not so great for others.  It was not successful for my kids but it might be for yours.  Since you own it you could give it a try and see how well he does.

 

If you still want to also look at CLE you might still give the diagnostic test (it can be long so you might want to break it up over two days for a more accurate assessment).  FWIW, the first CLE light unit of every level after kinder is a targeted review of the previous level so if he was borderline you could just run him through the first light unit of the next level up, going slowly, and see if he does well with that before committing to either level for purchase.  

 

If you do eventually decide to go with CLE I recommend the TM over the answer key.  Much easier to grade from, gives you suggestions for what to do if the student struggles, includes additional tests/materials at the back that can be used, and makes it MUCH easier to go back and find previous material if you need the student to review something after they have finished a light unit.   I also strongly recommend their flash cards.  They are set up in a very targeted way that I wholeheartedly love.

 Thanks! This is really helpful.  :001_smile: