If you are a Universalist, but also a Christian

[DawnM]

How do you reconcile passages about hell or those names not written in the book of life, etc...???

 

i know I can google, but I am curious what personal convictions or thoughts might be out there.

 

I am asking sincerely.  I have struggled with the entire concept of eternal damnation after only a limited scope of experience on earth.  

 

I also grew up with a very strong hellfire and brimstone type theology and am grappling with how to let some of that go.

 

I am not a Universalist but am starting to lean more towards thinking that there will be more people in heaven than those who are hellfire and brimstone think there will be.

 

Probably not making much sense, but if you could enlighten me on some thoughts, scripture, etc....I would welcome them.

 

Can we please not turn this into bashing?  Pretty please, with stevia on top.

[chiguirre]

Not a Christian, but I was raised Catholic. The concept of Purgatory was always comforting because you didn't have to be perfect to avoid Hell. I googled around and found this.

 

http://www.catholic.com/tracts/purgatory

 

Like I said, I'm no expert but this is at least a place to start.

[Terabith]

I guess I'm a universalist who believes in hell. God is loving. He is never going to force anyone to be with Him against their will. I don't see it as a place of eternal torment. The door to Heaven is always open. And Jesus comes and tries to heal those in hell, to open their eyes, if they are willing. I love the icon of the harrowing of hell, where Jesus is pulling folks out of hell left and right. That doesn't mean some wont refuse to come.

 

I love C. S. Lewis's book The Great Divorce.

[FaithManor]

My cousin and I lean universalist. Several things that lean us that way.

 

God is love. How is it a loving action to sentence a person to eternal torment.

 

God is mercy. Mercy and eternal torment are not compatible.

 

There are very few references to hell in the New Testament and most of them in the highly allegorical/symbolic book of revelation as a place for fallen angels not people.

 

None of the fruits of the spirit that we are to cultivate are consistent with a nature that practices eternally tormenting people.

 

Historically the concept of hell among early Christians was not universal either.

[QueenCat]

OP: When you say universalist, are you referring to the Universalist Unitarian religion?

[TranquilMind]

How do you reconcile passages about hell or those names not written in the book of life, etc...???

 

i know I can google, but I am curious what personal convictions or thoughts might be out there.

 

I am asking sincerely.  I have struggled with the entire concept of eternal damnation after only a limited scope of experience on earth.  

 

I also grew up with a very strong hellfire and brimstone type theology and am grappling with how to let some of that go.

 

I am not a Universalist but am starting to lean more towards thinking that there will be more people in heaven than those who are hellfire and brimstone think there will be.

 

Probably not making much sense, but if you could enlighten me on some thoughts, scripture, etc....I would welcome them.

 

Can we please not turn this into bashing?  Pretty please, with stevia on top.

I am an orthodox (little o) Christian and I agree that there will be more people in heaven than some think.

Why? 

 

Because Jesus said in John 10:16:  I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them in as well, and they will listen to My voice. Then there will be one flock and one shepherd

 

Some argue that this just means Gentiles, but I think that is presumptuous.

 

He also says in Exodus:  And the LORD said to Moses, “This very thing that you have spoken I will do; for you have found favor in my sight, and I know you by name.†Moses said, “I pray thee, show me thy glory.†And he said, “I will make all my goodness pass before you, and will proclaim before you my name ‘The LORD’; and I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will show mercy on whom I will show mercy.â€

2 Peter 3:9:  The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

 

"And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely." -Revelation 22:17

 

Since only HE and not we can discern hearts - and that's what he cares about, hearts (see King David) - He knows who will come in and who won't choose to do so. 

It's all about our choice.  Joshua 24:15  "But if serving the LORD seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your ancestors served beyond the Euphrates, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the LORD.

 

 

Edited January 2, 2017 by TranquilMind

[HomeAgain]

Same as Chiguirre, I was raised Catholic.

 

What is interesting in the bible is that nearly every time a 'lake of fire' or 'burning sulfur' is mentioned, it is followed by "and this is the second death."  The concept of death vs. everlasting life is a running theme, not everlasting pain vs. everlasting life.  It's reinforced through John 3:16, whoever so believes in me shall not perish from this earth.  Obviously not a very comforting thought, but it does change things a bit.  Even Hades himself gets the treatment of second death in Revelation.

 

 

Edited January 2, 2017 by HomeAgain

[DawnM]

My cousin and I lean universalist. Several things that lean us that way.

 

God is love. How is it a loving action to sentence a person to eternal torment.

 

God is mercy. Mercy and eternal torment are not compatible.

 

There are very few references to hell in the New Testament and most of them in the highly allegorical/symbolic book of revelation as a place for fallen angels not people.

 

None of the fruits of the spirit that we are to cultivate are consistent with a nature that practices eternally tormenting people.

 

Historically the concept of hell among early Christians was not universal either.

 

 

The bolded.

 

This is what sparked my questioning in some ways, although I have wrestled with this for a LONG time......I read the bible through this year (try every year but the last 2 years I have actually done it now that I listen instead of sit down to read) and so, I have just finished Revelation, where he talks about "those whose names are not written in the book of life."   So, is that Angels, not people?

 

The other HUGE issue I have with the concept of hell and separation from God.....I have always been taught that God loves our loved ones more than we do.  How can that be if Aunt Matilda isn't saved and will go to hell?  AND, how can I be at peace in heaven knowing that the person(s) I loved the most will never be with me and are being tormented for eternity?

[DawnM]

OP: When you say universalist, are you referring to the Universalist Unitarian religion?

 

No.  There are UU who are not Christian.  I mean those who believe that Jesus died from our sins, and was resurrected, expressly to save the world from sin.

 

I guess I should have said a Universalist Theology????

 

I am not clear on all the correct terminology.

[DawnM]

Do some of you have some books you would recommend to understand it a bit better?

I have "Heaven" by Randy Alcorn in my wishlist on Audible.  Not sure it is an Audible type book????  Should I get it in print form to underline and highlight or is it not that kind of read?

[QueenCat]

No.  There are UU who are not Christian.  I mean those who believe that Jesus died from our sins, and was resurrected, expressly to save the world from sin.

 

I guess I should have said a Universalist Theology????

 

I am not clear on all the correct terminology.

 

We go to a UU church, so I do know that there are UU who are Christian (me, for example). I just wasn't sure if you were using universalist in the sense that they are Christians who go to a UU church or if you meant something else by the term universalist.

[MercyA]

I think it should be pointed out that Jesus Himself was a "hellfire and brimstone" preacher, speaking more often of hell than of heaven. He is the one who said:

 

"And I say to you, My friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do. But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear Him who, after He has killed, has power to cast into hell; yes, I say to you, fear Him!" Luke 12:4-5

 

"...These will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." Matthew 25:46

 

"...Narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it." Matthew 7:14

 

He was either speaking the truth or He wasn't. I believe He was, out of His great love and concern for us all.

 

Possibly these articles will be of some help to you:

How can a loving God send someone to hell?

Are there different levels of punishment in hell?

Why is the idea of eternal damnation so repulsive to many people?

 

:grouphug:  :grouphug:  :grouphug:

Edited January 2, 2017 by MercyA

[MercyA]

Do some of you have some books you would recommend to understand it a bit better?

I have "Heaven" by Randy Alcorn in my wishlist on Audible.  Not sure it is an Audible type book????  Should I get it in print form to underline and highlight or is it not that kind of read?

 

I haven't read Heaven, but Randy Alcorn is an excellent author. Definitely check it out.

[Pronghorn]

The Renewal of All Things by Waldron Byron Scott.

[MercyA]

I have just finished Revelation, where he talks about "those whose names are not written in the book of life."   So, is that Angels, not people?

 

No, I don't think so, even though hell was originally created for the devil and his angels.

 

"Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books...And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire." Revelation 20:11-12,15

 

"But there shall by no means enter it [New Jerusalem] anything that defiles, or causes an abomination or a lie, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s Book of Life." Revelation 22:26

 

"He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels." Revelation 3:5

 

"And I urge you also, true companion, help these women who labored with me in the gospel, with Clement also, and the rest of my fellow workers, whose names are in the Book of Life." Philippians 4:3

[Onceuponatime]

When I was on my way out of christianity, but not out yet, I was leaning universalist. At that time I did a thorough word study of hell.

 

There are four words translated "hell" in the bible. Each has its own connotations and history. A quick generalized summary:

 

1. Sheol- found exclusively in the Old Testament. From reading the passages in which it is found, it is underground, often synonymous with and translated as "death," and practically every person who dies ends up there, good or bad.

 

2. Hades- found exclusively in the New Testament, a greek version of sheol. From reading the passages in which it is found, it is underground, often synonymous with physical death, the dead are imprisoned there.

 

3. Tartarus- only found once, in the New Testament, a greek idea of a pit or abyss in Hades where the worst of the dead go. There is also a pit like this in sheol, mentioned in Job, but it (or the Angel that guards it) is called Abaddon, which is said to mean " destruction."

 

4. Gehenna- the latest parts of the Old Testament and many apocalyptic and metaphorical parts of the New Testament. A place of burning, supposedly referring to an area outside Jerusalem with legendary history of child sacrifice or other purposes of burning people and things.

 

The word "hell" itself has its own history, Germanic, if I remember correctly.

 

One problem with reading the bible in English translation is that we cannot see the distinctions of these different " hells" and lump them all together. If I was to subscribe to any version of christianity, it would be the one that has the doctrine of Jesus dying so he could go to Hades ( the land of the dead) and open the gates, letting the captives ( all the dead) free. It jives with many New Testament scriptures and coordinates with one of the books of Peter that says Jesus preached to the souls in prison. However, my problems with christianity run much deeper than this one subject.

Edited January 2, 2017 by Onceuponatime

[sbgrace]

Do some of you have some books you would recommend to understand it a bit better?

I have "Heaven" by Randy Alcorn in my wishlist on Audible.  Not sure it is an Audible type book????  Should I get it in print form to underline and highlight or is it not that kind of read?

 

The best book I read, and I read a lot, was Her Gates Will Never Be Shut by Brad Jersak. I got in in Kindle, because the print is pricey. I wish I owned it in print. I think it would answer a lot of questions, is very readable, and, really, the vision of God set forth in biblical evangelical universalism is beautiful and compelling--that all things will be made right and reconciled through Christ in the end. I tried to write out that vision, but I don't feel I can do it justice.  Brad Jersak is a hopeful universalist--I appreciated his even handed and honest approach to the topic. https://www.amazon.com/Her-Gates-Will-Never-Shut/dp/1606088823

 

FWIW, hell, as understood by the western church, is coming from things outside of scripture. It entered from the Latin fathers and pagan influence when the church combined with the Roman Empire. Good websites or books on the subject will explain the passages and how the current idea of hell as everlasting torment developed. I found this link-I haven't examined it closely,  but the sources look strong, if maybe too many so as to be overwhelming.http://30ce.com/developmentofhell.htm Again, I keep trying to simplify and explain, but I feel I fall short. And, really, more compelling and attractive is what is in terms of a God of everlasting love and mercy reconciling all things than what isn't in terms of a retribution based hell. A good resource, like Jersak's book, will examine it holistically.

Edited January 2, 2017 by sbgrace

[FaithManor]

Hell also is also not consistent with fre will or choice. "Believe in me or be tortured for all eternity" is coercion and not true choice. Confession by oppression, mental/physical threat is not a choice but merely domination by fear. Again, a premise that is inconsistent with the attributes of god unless one is going to ignore the fruits of the spirit, descriptions of mercy and love as god like character traits.

 

That said. I am not certain the OP is necessarily looking for defenses of hell drom those that believe in it, but for perspectives of those who do not believe on it. So I will refrain from this point forward on engaging in a debate on the subject and only post in this thread either how I arrived at my conclusions or resources to help with the questions.

[J-rap]

I guess I don't consider myself a universalist per se, but I do have hope and believe Christ's salvation can extend outside of the circle of Christiandom.  

 

This short video by Greg Boyd sums it up nicely, I think:

 

http://reknew.org/2012/12/video-qa-salvation/

 

 

[EmseB]

Hell also is also not consistent with fre will or choice. "Believe in me or be tortured for all eternity" is coercion and not true choice. Confession by oppression, mental/physical threat is not a choice but merely domination by fear. Again, a premise that is inconsistent with the attributes of god unless one is going to ignore the fruits of the spirit, descriptions of mercy and love as god like character traits.

This is a counter-point to that view, just to offer another perspective.

 

http://www.desiringgod.org/articles/trust-me-or-i-will-hurt-you

Edited January 2, 2017 by EmseB

[milovany]

Disclaimer: I'm really tired and I should go to bed so please forgive if my thoughts are unclear or incomplete. In Eastern Orthodoxy, hell isn't a place where God sends people. Hell is when, through choices made during the earthly life, one doesn't want to be with God when they pass.  But because God is everywhere present, they are -- and they hate it.  He loves all and does not wish for anyone to hate being in His presence, but knows also that some will because He won't make them love Him.  If you don't love or want to be with God while living, then you won't enjoy His presence in death.  (Some other Orthodox person explain this better for me!)  He wills that all would come to Him and not perish like this. 

 

Orthodoxy is not universalist, but to me it has provided the greatest hope for those who are not believers. There is a certain, best way to come to God (through His Church and through the sacraments He's gifted us) but He's also merciful. For example, I know I was a Christian before I was Orthodox and I hope God's mercy would have extended to me if I'd passed. I functioned in the knowledge that I had, which included no knowledge/understanding about the way He set up church in ancient times -- but I was active in ministry, I tried to be generous and nice and thoughtful, I read the Bible, went to Church, tried to pray, etc. As another example, my grandmother was 99 when she passed away.  She'd lived most of her life as an atheist/humanist with no belief whatsoever in the afterlife. In the eight or so years before she died, however, she started developing faith. She told me she prayed.  I asked her once if she loved God, and she said yes and that she hoped to be with Him when she passed. I was evangelical protestant most of this time and believed that unless she prayed "the prayer of salvation," she was LOST with no hope of heaven. I probably even tried to get her to pray it.  But thankfully I was becoming Orthodox in the last year of her life and my final interaction with her was one of tender mercy. Now I believe that she was on a path toward God and that He is merciful.  I would not be surprised at all if she's with Him now. 

 

I hope that makes some sense and brings hope. I no longer believe in a God who sends people to hell. I believe in a God who, like the father in the story of the prodigal son, will welcome any lost sheep back to the fold (like the younger son) while also at the same time work on the heart of any who think they are close to Him, but really may not be because of their own passions/unbelief (like the older son). 

Edited January 3, 2017 by milovany

[DawnM]

Disclaimer: I'm really tired and I should go to bed so please forgive if my thoughts are unclear or incomplete. In Eastern Orthodoxy, hell isn't a place where God sends people. Hell is when, through choices made during the earthly life, one doesn't want to be with God when they pass.  But because God is everywhere present, they are -- and they hate it.  He loves all and does not wish for anyone to hate being in His presence, but knows also that some will because He won't make them love Him.  If you don't love or want to be with God while living, then you won't enjoy His presence in death.  (Some other Orthodox person explain this better for me!)  He wills that all would come to Him and not perish like this. 

 

Orthodoxy is not universalist, but to me it has provided the greatest hope for those who are not believers. There is a certain, best way to come to God (through His Church and through the sacraments He's gifted us) but He's also merciful. For example, I know I was a Christian before I was Orthodox and I hope God's mercy would have extended to me if I'd passed. I functioned in the knowledge that I had, which included no knowledge/understanding about the way He set up church in ancient times -- but I was active in ministry, I tried to be generous and nice and thoughtful, I read the Bible, went to Church, tried to pray, etc. As another example, my grandmother was 99 when she passed away.  She'd lived most of her life as an atheist/humanist with no belief whatsoever in the afterlife. In the eight or so years before she died, however, she started developing faith. She told me she prayed.  I asked her once if she loved God, and she said yes and that she hoped to be with Him when she passed. I was evangelical protestant most of this time and believed that unless she prayed "the prayer of salvation," she was LOST with no hope of heaven. I probably even tried to get her to pray it.  But thankfully I was becoming Orthodox in the last year of her life and my final interaction with her was one of tender mercy. Now I believe that she was on a path toward God and that He is merciful.  I would not be surprised at all if she's with Him now. 

 

I hope that makes some sense and brings hope. I no longer believe in a God who sends people to hell. I believe in a God who, like the father in the story of the prodigal son, will welcome any lost sheep back to the fold (like the younger son) while also at the same time work on the heart of any who think they are close to Him, but really may not be because of their own passions/unbelief (like the older son). 

 

This is much of what I have come to conclude in my searching and praying and trying to understand God more.

 

But it is *almost* heretical to my evangelical friends.  ALL of my church experience has been evangelical.  And since college (Christian college) I have felt that we didn't have it 100% right.  I just keep thinking that, although I do believe in a sinners' prayer of sorts, I think the evangelical have it wrong.  It isn't the ONLY prayer, said a certain way,  that will *save* us.

 

I just don't understand why we would be judged forever on our limited understanding on earth.

 

The Bible says that every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord.  

 

So, do they confess and then go back into eternal punishment?  How can that possibly be?

 

It is a process for me, and I am learning more and more, and praying more and more.

 

Evangelicals seem to think it all needs to look exactly the same or it doesn't count.  I grew up that way.  You MUST accept Jesus into your heart (where is that in scripture?)  Private baptism doesn't count, infant baptism doesn't count, and if at all possible, you must be dunked as a believer.

[almondbutterandjelly]

I think the phrase you are looking for is "universal salvation" or "universal reconciliation."  Might be a good term to google for additional info.

[Ravin]

We go to a UU church, so I do know that there are UU who are Christian (me, for example). I just wasn't sure if you were using universalist in the sense that they are Christians who go to a UU church or if you meant something else by the term universalist.

 

Universalist = universal salvation. This was a concept that was part of the development of the UUF, but not exclusive to it.

[DawnM]

I think the phrase you are looking for is "universal salvation" or "universal reconciliation."  Might be a good term to google for additional info.

 

 

I know what it means, I was more looking for personal thoughts and ideas of how people have come to that conclusion, etc.....

[MercyA]

I just don't understand why we would be judged forever on our limited understanding on earth.

 

The Bible says that every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord.  

 

So, do they confess and then go back into eternal punishment?  How can that possibly be?

 

It is a process for me, and I am learning more and more, and praying more and more.

 

Evangelicals seem to think it all needs to look exactly the same or it doesn't count.  I grew up that way.  You MUST accept Jesus into your heart (where is that in scripture?)  Private baptism doesn't count, infant baptism doesn't count, and if at all possible, you must be dunked as a believer.

 

I think it is really good and wise and necessary to parse out what is cultural "Christianity" and what is truly Biblical. I agree with you that the phrase "asking Jesus into your heart" is not precisely Scriptural. What does that even mean? :)

 

I think sometimes people want to make things formulaic and fit them neatly into a system, but I don't think it works like that. Christ is a Person that we come to know, not a word of some magical phrase we say.

 

I think we have to be careful about what we know and what we don't. We know adults who hear the Gospel choose either to accept it or reject it, right? And the Bible is very clear about the results of that choice (which may be a process for some--I know for me, faith was not easy). 

 

But what about children who lack the ability to understand the Gospel? Are they lost if they die without trusting Christ? Apparently not:

 

     David said, "But now he is dead; why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me.†2 Samuel 12:23

 

Or what about God's people who died before Christ?

 

     "Even so Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness...The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, 'All the nations will be blessed in you.' So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer." Galatians 3:6, 8-9

 

And what of those who have never heard the Gospel? We do have some indication that God will take ignorance into account (whether just here on earth or in eternity as well, I am not sure):

 

     "...we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, something shaped by art and man’s devising. Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent.†Acts 17:29B-30

 

     "And that servant who knew his master’s will, and did not prepare himself or do according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.But he who did not know, yet committed things deserving of stripes, shall be beaten with few. For everyone to whom much is given, from him much will be required; and to whom much has been committed, of him they will ask the more." Matthew 12:47-48

 

All are without a doubt responsible for what they *do* know:

 

     "For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse." Romans 1:18-20

Edited January 3, 2017 by MercyA

[Lang Syne Boardie]

I'm not universalist, but as a mostly fundamentalist Christian, doctrines on hell are one of the areas where I part ways with evangelicals. I was going to explain what I believe, but Milovany and Onceuponatime covered most of my points.

 

Basically, I do believe in a hell, but I don't believe that unsuspecting billions are going to be surprised to find themselves in everlasting torment for all eternity unless evangelical Christian missionaries get to them in time. From my studies, it seems to me that anyone in hell will not be surprised. I think there are enemies of God, but I don't think everyone who fails to relate to God exactly as I do, is an enemy of God deserving eternal damnation. I don't even believe that being agnostic makes one an enemy of God. Not at all.

 

And I really love not being in the group of people who are pretty sure they know who's going to hell and who's saved. At this point, there's almost nothing in the world of religion that offends me more than that.

[Guest]

Do some of you have some books you would recommend to understand it a bit better?

I have "Heaven" by Randy Alcorn in my wishlist on Audible. Not sure it is an Audible type book???? Should I get it in print form to underline and highlight or is it not that kind of read?

I guess I am a Universalist, although I mostly am now apathetic about what happens after. I have not believed in hell for quite a few years, even when I was strongly Evangelical. I read the book, "If Grace Is True" maybe about 12 years ago; a lot of that book resonated with me and it made it somewhat easier to ignore the brainwashing I was raised to believe (burn in hell; eternal damnation). I did not read this entire book. Some of what was discussed later in the book was hard for me to accept and I quit the book. I think it was talking about Atonement and that was too sacred for me to read at the time. Probably, I would agree with the whole book now.

 

The author also has a book called, "If God Is Love," but I can't remember if I read that book some or all or none.

[abba12]

Eek, not sure I should venture in here, but, here it goes...

 

I am not a universalist, but I no longer believe in an enternal fire hell either. I could never reconcile eternal fire for the african who never heard Jesus name with a loving merciful God. 

 

I believe that heaven and hell is the experience we have in the presence of God. The consuming fire of hell is also the refining light and glory of God, they're the same but how we experience them depends on our salvation. I believe the consuming fire actually, you know, consumes, and that these people die. No torture and everlasting pain, just death. Jesus died to give eternal life to the saved. If we all have eternal life whether it's eternal in heaven or hell, then why the emphasis on eternal life in the bible? Eternity in hell is still eternity, it makes no sense. Wouldn't the emphasis be on a good, happy life in your assumed eternity then?

 

So, I don't believe the default is fiery eternal torment and a few lucky ones go to heaven, I just can't reconcile that with the God I know. I believe the default is death, simple, regular death, and a select few go to heaven and have eternal life with the God they served on earth, but those who didn't, well, they just die a regular mortal death. It's not a punishment, it's just the lack of a privilege, there's a difference. 

 

This article was my revelation regarding this topic. If you read it, you have to read it to the end, because the author ties everything together in the last section. Also, I do not endorse ANYTHING else on his website, this is crazy loon territory lol, but somehow he also wrote the most eloquent, well put together argument for hell not being eternal that I can find anywhere. All his points are backed up elsewhere, but I've never found anything as comprehensive and well said as this, even if the author is very wrong about a lot of other things.

http://biblelight.net/hell.htm

Edited January 3, 2017 by abba12

[MercyA]

Eek, not sure I should venture in here, but, here it goes...

 

I am not a universalist, but I no longer believe in an enternal fire hell either...

 

 

abba12, I've seen these arguments before and think the writer makes a decent case. I'd be interested to read the teachings of early Christians on this topic.

 

It's one of those periphery issues in my view, like end-times prophecy, and doesn't really affect my day-to-day life as a Christian. I do know that Jesus warned about hell again and again, so whether it is eternal punishment or eventual annihilation, I want to avoid it at all costs.  :)

 

I am just so thankful for the hope of eternal life:

 

"So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: 'Death is swallowed up in victory. O Death, where is your sting? O Hades, where is your victory?' The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law. But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ."

Edited January 4, 2017 by MercyA

[mtomom]

First, I think the bible teaches universal reconciliation, and I needed to explore the biblical support and examine the verses that seemed to teach there was an eternal hell. I came to the conclusion through study that this hope is intellectually and spiritually sound. http://campuspress.yale.edu/keithderose/1129-2/

http://www.frimmin.com/faith/godislove.php

 

 Would anyone, if they could really clearly see truth and the love of God reject that to choose destruction. Or are we blinded, all to different extents, by our humanity and sin? And does God who wanted to welcome us all really get his plan ultimately thwarted by our humanity and sin? If narrow is the way that leads to life....most are on the way to destruction. Of course a loving God doesn't want that, but he's limited by us and the finite lifetime we have? Is it possible instead that eventually we will all see clearly? We will all repent and come to God through Christ? He will make all things good--reconciling the victim with the now repentant victimizer, bringing healing and health?

 

I believe in a hell--an age of time--where all of us will be purified. Some will have started that purification on earth and will have already begun selecting life over death by following Christ--living out his love in this new kingdom his death and resurrection ushered in and walking in that light. So I think there will be a judgment--but it will be restorative, not punitive in nature.

Edited January 4, 2017 by mtomom

[DawnM]

First, I think the bible teaches universal reconciliation, and I needed to explore the biblical support and examine the verses that seemed to teach there was an eternal hell. I came to the conclusion through study that this hope is intellectually and spiritually sound. http://campuspress.yale.edu/keithderose/1129-2/

http://www.frimmin.com/faith/godislove.php

 

 Would anyone, if they could really clearly see truth and the love of God reject that to choose destruction. Or are we blinded, all to different extents, by our humanity and sin? And does God who wanted to welcome us all really get his plan ultimately thwarted by our humanity and sin? If narrow is the way that leads to life....most are on the way to destruction. Of course a loving God doesn't want that, but he's limited by us and the finite lifetime we have? Is it possible instead that eventually we will all see clearly? We will all repent and come to God through Christ? He will make all things good--reconciling the victim with the now repentant victimizer, bringing healing and health?

 

I believe in a hell--an age of time--where all of us will be purified. Some will have started that purification on earth and will have already begun selecting life over death by following Christ--living out his love in this new kingdom his death and resurrection ushered in and walking in that light. So I think there will be a judgment--but it will be restorative, not punitive in nature.

 

Can you tell me why you think this?  Scriptural references?  Theological discussions?

 

I am genuinely interested.  This is more is line with my reasoning, but I have never heard it preached or taught.

[*Lulu*]

Rob Bell's Love Wins was a good step for me in separating cultural Christianity from scripture and what I had been told from what I believe.

[Joyofsixreboot]

I'm just a Methodist who believes what I believe but it seems to me hell is just separation from God that you have chosen. If we don't have free will we can't truly love. I believe God know your heart no matter your religion but I also believe God is much bigger than our man made religions.

[Scarlett]

Same as Chiguirre, I was raised Catholic.

 

What is interesting in the bible is that nearly every time a 'lake of fire' or 'burning sulfur' is mentioned, it is followed by "and this is the second death." The concept of death vs. everlasting life is a running theme, not everlasting pain vs. everlasting life. It's reinforced through John 3:16, whoever so believes in me shall not perish from this earth. Obviously not a very comforting thought, but it does change things a bit. Even Hades himself gets the treatment of second death in Revelation.

Yes this.

[sbgrace]

Dawn, I found a link with a pdf from Brad Jersak (author of the book I liked/mention above) that talks about hell beliefs including some of what the poster above was talking about--the refining purpose, which I hold too. http://www.ptm.org/11PT/spring/remodelingHell.pdf

 

Universal reconciliation/restoration pulls it all together for me and it presents a picture I find so attractive that I couldn't leave God. And not because I'm afraid of punishment—but because this is so beautiful. I used to read I John 4:18 and wonder how we weren't to be afraid of God. Because I was. And you know what--it did drive out love. Love draws, fear coerces. Christ was never coercive and he was the exact picture of God. God doesn't need that—his love will draw us. Or I hope it will. I don't think God ever violates human will. I consider myself a hopeful universalist. Jersak's book and that pdf explain that too--he falls there.

Edited January 5, 2017 by sbgrace

[DawnM]

Ok, so what kind of churches do you all go to?  I know my church doesn't believe anything close to this.  

 

I know a couple of you go to Orthodox churches, but any others?  

[Guest]

My church is non-denominational, of the "Seeker Sensitive" variety, so not any "burn for all eternity" coming from the pulpit. However, my beliefs (or non-belief) does not reflect the teachings of my church.

[ktgrok]

Ok, so what kind of churches do you all go to?  I know my church doesn't believe anything close to this.  

 

I know a couple of you go to Orthodox churches, but any others?  

 

Catholic here. We know that there are people in heaven, but the official teaching is we have no idea if anyone is in hell. And that although we know the assured way to heaven, we also know that God is merciful, and he can act outside that path if he chooses to, and well, if he is merciful, wouldn't he choose to?

 

This sort of touches on it. http://www.catholic.org/news/hf/faith/story.php?id=51077

Edited January 5, 2017 by ktgrok

[DawnM]

Oh, by the way, just to be clear, the Orthodox Church does not teach universalism but it does leave room for speculation about it and many fine Orthodox Christians DO muse on this topic.  That said, even without "universal salvation", the whole Orthodox perspective of salvation and "hell" is much more about the personal will to be separate from God, not about punishment by God for not saying a prayer or being a bad girl.  

 

 

Right.  I did understand that.

It is just so different than what I have been taught.  And it makes sense to me.

[Mergath]

I'm just a Methodist who believes what I believe but it seems to me hell is just separation from God that you have chosen. If we don't have free will we can't truly love. I believe God know your heart no matter your religion but I also believe God is much bigger than our man made religions.

 

I'm not a Christian (sorry to crash the party) but I've always found these sorts of discussions interesting. Also, I find the idea of Universalism beautiful, and I think we'd all be so much better off if it was the doctrine of every religion.

 

I see this (the one posted by joyofsix and others) argument a lot, and I find it confusing, to say the least. Is the idea that because God is goodness, being in his presence will be a kind of eternal torment for everyone who didn't choose to believe in him during life?

 

I know a lot of non-Christians, and if it turns out we were wrong, none of us would be tormented by being in the presence of the Christian God, especially if he turns out to be as kind and loving as some of his followers claim.  Just because we aren't Christians doesn't mean we've rejected the ideas of love and light and skulk around stealing babies or whatever.  :P

 

The only people I can imagine being truly tormented by something like that are the severely mentally ill, or those who have been significantly damaged during life. And that doesn't seem fair.

 

So how does that work, exactly? What are the conditions for who would find the presence of God unbearable enough for it to count as hell?

[FaithManor]

We attend a Methodist church for sense of community, fellowship, meditation, and worship. We are very quiet about what we believe because it does not align with protestantism nor Roman Catholicism. There are no UU churches near us, and that would probably not be comfortable for us anyway.

 

So much legalism within evangelicalism that we have rejected, things not related specifically to this topic. Because we no longer toe the line on these issues, we simply fit no where. Absolutely no where.

[ktgrok]

 

So much legalism within evangelicalism that we have rejected, things not related specifically to this topic. Because we no longer toe the line on these issues, we simply fit no where. Absolutely no where.

 

Episcopal? Pretty much anything is okay to believe there. 

[Joyofsixreboot]

I'm not a Christian (sorry to crash the party) but I've always found these sorts of discussions interesting. Also, I find the idea of Universalism beautiful, and I think we'd all be so much better off if it was the doctrine of every religion.

 

I see this (the one posted by joyofsix and others) argument a lot, and I find it confusing, to say the least. Is the idea that because God is goodness, being in his presence will be a kind of eternal torment for everyone who didn't choose to believe in him during life?

 

I know a lot of non-Christians, and if it turns out we were wrong, none of us would be tormented by being in the presence of the Christian God, especially if he turns out to be as kind and loving as some of his followers claim. Just because we aren't Christians doesn't mean we've rejected the ideas of love and light and skulk around stealing babies or whatever. [emoji14]

 

The only people I can imagine being truly tormented by something like that are the severely mentally ill, or those who have been significantly damaged during life. And that doesn't seem fair.

 

So how does that work, exactly? What are the conditions for who would find the presence of God unbearable enough for it to count as hell?

No, not tormented by being in His presence. Not being in his presence would be missing out on what I beleive will be ultimate love and acceptance and comfort.

 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk

[pinkmint]

Dawn, I have read Heaven by R. Alcorn. Be aware, it's over 500 pages. Personally that book is very important to me and really helped my faith.

 

Randy Alcorn is defiantly not a universalist though

 

(http://www.epm.org/blog/2013/May/22/universalism)

[Greta]

I'm not a Christian (sorry to crash the party) but I've always found these sorts of discussions interesting. Also, I find the idea of Universalism beautiful, and I think we'd all be so much better off if it was the doctrine of every religion.

 

I see this (the one posted by joyofsix and others) argument a lot, and I find it confusing, to say the least. Is the idea that because God is goodness, being in his presence will be a kind of eternal torment for everyone who didn't choose to believe in him during life?

 

I know a lot of non-Christians, and if it turns out we were wrong, none of us would be tormented by being in the presence of the Christian God, especially if he turns out to be as kind and loving as some of his followers claim.  Just because we aren't Christians doesn't mean we've rejected the ideas of love and light and skulk around stealing babies or whatever.  :p

 

The only people I can imagine being truly tormented by something like that are the severely mentally ill, or those who have been significantly damaged during life. And that doesn't seem fair.

 

So how does that work, exactly? What are the conditions for who would find the presence of God unbearable enough for it to count as hell?

 

 

I liked your post a great deal, Mergath, because I find these questions so compelling.  And I don't claim to have definitive answers by any means, but I love the discussion.  I want to give you the thoughtful, insightful reply that you deserve, but I'm not sure that I'm capable!  So please bear with me through this fumbling attempt.

 

I do not believe that mental illness (which just like any other disease is a *physical* ailment) would be enough to send someone to hell, because the physical things will be stripped away at our deaths.  Like you, I think a lot of people who do not believe in God in this life, would/will be pleasantly surprised to encounter Him in the afterlife.  And if they will be happy in His presence, then that's by definition heaven and not hell.  I think it's really not as much about what goes on in our brains, as it is about the condition of our hearts and souls.  

 

If God is love, then those who are filled with hate will find his presence unbearable.  If God is merciful and forgiving, then those who refuse to either give or receive mercy and forgiveness will detest Him.  If God is peace, then those who thrive on anger and conflict will find him contemptible.  Again, there is the question of how much of that is brain chemistry, and how much of it is the condition of the soul, and I can't answer that.  I like to believe that most of these are the product of our imperfect physical forms, and that our souls will rejoice in God then, even though our bodies don't right now.  Christ said blessed are the poor in spirit, those who mourn, the meek, the merciful, those who hunger and thirst after righteousness, the peacemakers, the pure in heart.  I think that if we're attempting to nurture those qualities in ourselves, however faltering our attempts may be, then we will find the presence of God to be heaven.  But if we reject those things and deliberately pursue their opposites, then the presence of a God who exemplifies and values those things will be hell.

 

If you want a much longer and MUCH better answer, The Great Divorce by C.S. Lewis is a work of fiction that illustrates why some people might, well, to put it bluntly, choose hell.  I found it really interesting - it's probably my favorite work of Christian fiction, but I confess to not having read a great deal of Christian fiction.

 

I believe that you are Buddhist, and I was Buddhist myself for several years and I still have tremendous respect and admiration for the tradition.  In Buddhism, there is a great deal of teaching about letting go of the ego, letting go of the self.  I think there is something very similar in Christianity, especially of the Eastern Christian tradition, and you will hear phrases like 'dying to the self' in Orthodoxy.  Not official Orthodox doctrine, but my own (over)simplification:  if you love God more than you love yourself, that is heaven.  If you love yourself more than you love God, that is hell.

 

I'm hesitant to even put this out there, because I'm sure I've gotten a great deal wrong.  My hope is that this would be the beginning of further thought and discussion, and in no way taken as a "final answer" about anything.

[Greta]

 

 

The sum-up phrase CS Lewis had goes something like this:  We can say to God, "Thy will be done."  If we don't, He will say to us, "Thy will be done."  

 

 

 

 

Yes! I had forgotten this.

 

And forgive me for repeating the C.S. Lewis recommendation.  I did not see PJ's post before I made my own.

[Mergath]

No, not tormented by being in His presence. Not being in his presence would be missing out on what I beleive will be ultimate love and acceptance and comfort.

 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk

 

So for you, being away from the presence of God would be hell? Do you believe that is how it will work for non-believers, as well? I just don't want to misinterpret what you're saying. :)

 

ETA: Sorry, I just read your original post and see you that said the absence of God is hell.  It seems like, for this explanation, about half the people who make it say that, for non-believers, it's the presence of God that's Hell, while the other half say that Hell is the separation of non-believers from God. I wonder how people can have a belief about Hell that is so similar and yet so opposite at the same time.

Edited January 6, 2017 by Mergath

[Pam in CT]

I really, really enjoy Great Divorce.  I re-read it every few years and pull out different things every time around.  There's something there for everyone, it gets the wheels turning, whatever perspective one brings to it.

 

 

 

 

(And FWIW a lot of other CS Lewis leaves me rather frustrated... though I also greatly appreciate Til We Have Faces, and Screwtape = hilarious.)

[Greta]

I really, really enjoy Great Divorce.  I re-read it every few years and pull out different things every time around.  There's something there for everyone, it gets the wheels turning, whatever perspective one brings to it.

 

 

 

 

(And FWIW a lot of other CS Lewis leaves me rather frustrated... though I also greatly appreciate Til We Have Faces, and Screwtape = hilarious.)

 

 

I thought I was the only one!  :lol:  I've never read Till We Have Faces, though, so I'll definitely have to check it out.