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A question for atheists


Charlie
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Well obviously I would be disappointed that he chose a different path, but he's my son and I love him. I'd listen to his thoughts and beliefs, and ultimately it would become a subject we likely wouldn't discuss. I'd be fine as long as he didn't try to make me feel my beliefs were wrong. I think that kind of thing can come from either side.

 

Let's face it; atheists would probably like to convince Christians of their belief (or lack thereof) just as much as Christians would like to convince atheists that there is a God. I believe when one feels very strongly about a matter, they'd like others, especially those they care about, to agree.

 

I think my mom worries about eternity. She's never been a fire and brimstone believer but I think the idea that I wouldn't be invited / find my way to a kind of eternal paradise is beginning to worry her. If you would be fine either way as long as he didn't try to make you feel like your beliefs were wrong, would you be interested in sharing with your son some non-theistic answers to his questions?

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DH and I are more agnostic than atheist. Growing up, my family was not religious at all, so it's not been a problem with that side.

 

DH, however, was raised in a Catholic family that believed you had better have your butt in that church pew every Sunday morning or you are going to hell. That was the only requirement though - there were no teachings about values or how to be good person, or charitable projects or anything like that. As long as you went to church and contributed to the collection basket, all was good. DH is pretty cynical about organized religion due to that childhood experience. 

 

His family is not happy about him leaving the church, but they keep quiet about it for the most part - except for one Christmas when his stepmom blew up at us and told us we should feel guilty for not taking our kids to church. His mom died before our kids were born, but I'm sure she would have had a huge problem with our kids not being baptized.

 

As for our kids, they have their own lives to lead and I would never dream of trying to pressure them one way or another on religion. We've always told them that as long as they are decent human beings, we don't care what they decide as far as religion, political affiliation, or anything else. 

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Not necessarily.

 

I lived for 10 years with a believer, and we had no issues of conflicting spirituality in that time.

I'm also not the only atheist who has directed a friend towards religion because that's where they needed to be.

 

 

I read a model of spiritual perspective, I guess, a few years ago. You're assuming atheists and Christians must be on the same level, which they may not be.

Well I'm not a Christian who would do that, but know there are plenty who do. You are right though; it is an assumption to say there might be atheists who would try to promote their beliefs to others as well.

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I think my mom worries about eternity. She's never been a fire and brimstone believer but I think the idea that I wouldn't be invited / find my way to a kind of eternal paradise is beginning to worry her. If you would be fine either way as long as he didn't try to make you feel like your beliefs were wrong, would you be interested in sharing with your son some non-theistic answers to his questions?

Certainly as a Christian that's a difficult thing to grasp; that your child you love wouldn't share eternity with you. Of course, one thing I still struggle with is my own belief about death/hell/heaven/eternity, etc. It's just something I need to study more. It's definitely been in the forefront of my mind this year with all of the deaths we have experienced. I think what I struggle with is hell and what I really believe hell is; just a separation from heaven or truly an eternal fire. If I could come to grips with my own true feelings/beliefs about that, I may have more peace for my son no matter what he chooses.

 

I am open to sharing other things with him.

 

Also, I'm really sorry I have redirected this thread. I really do appreciate all the input though.

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Let's face it; atheists would probably like to convince Christians of their belief (or lack thereof) just as much as Christians would like to convince atheists that there is a God. I believe when one feels very strongly about a matter, they'd like others, especially those they care about, to agree.

Although I'm more agnostic than atheist, this is absolutely not true for me. Most of my friends and family members are Christians and for most, I admire how they put their faith into practice, and I know that especially for my parents, their faith brings them great comfort. I would never want to take that away from any of them.

 

My very conservative, both in terms of religion and politics, brother is another story. I do try to talk and reason with him at times. Not to get him to abandon his faith, but to be more tolerant and less bigoted. He says his priest tries to do the same thing with him, so I don't feel bad about my attempts.

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Let's face it; atheists would probably like to convince Christians of their belief (or lack thereof) just as much as Christians would like to convince atheists that there is a God. I believe when one feels very strongly about a matter, they'd like others, especially those they care about, to agree.

 

Actually, I think there would be a lot fewer angry atheists and anti-theists if people with religious beliefs weren't pushing so hard. The dominant belief permeates all aspects of society, including laws. Those who belong to the dominant belief system often don't see it, but those who are either atheists or of a different religious system do. 

 

I don't try to convince anyone that there are no supernatural beings and I really don't care who believes in them. It's only when I see it pushed on me or on society that I push back. We see it most often in relation to sexual orientation but there are other less obvious ways it's there. For example, every public school ballgame around here starts not only with an invocation, but with a Christian invocation. 

 

As I said upthread though, my family and friends who are religious are live and let live believers. I've never tried to deconvert them any more than they've tried to bring me back.

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Certainly as a Christian that's a difficult thing to grasp; that your child you love wouldn't share eternity with you. Of course, one thing I still struggle with is my own belief about death/hell/heaven/eternity, etc. It's just something I need to study more. It's definitely been in the forefront of my mind this year with all of the deaths we have experienced. I think what I struggle with is hell and what I really believe hell is; just a separation from heaven or truly an eternal fire. If I could come to grips with my own true feelings/beliefs about that, I may have more peace for my son no matter what he chooses.

 

I am open to sharing other things with him.

 

Also, I'm really sorry I have redirected this thread. I really do appreciate all the input though.

 

What I understand about Christianity is that faith "saves" someone from a really super bad reality after death. Otherwise, what would be the point of the crucifixion and resurrection? So, whether it's a literal eternal fire or separation, it's bad enough to want to avoid that, right? Otherwise, why worry about evidence and faith and why not just be a kind and considerate person?

 

Your other thread looks like you're only looking for answers that reinforce a Christian belief. Do you mind non theist responses?

 

Also, if you wanted to start another thread that's fine, but I really do enjoy the natural ebb and flow of conversations, so please don't feel like you're bothering me or anything. I promise. :-)

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Let's face it; atheists would probably like to convince Christians of their belief (or lack thereof) just as much as Christians would like to convince atheists that there is a God. I believe when one feels very strongly about a matter, they'd like others, especially those they care about, to agree.

Nah.  I've never once tried to convince my in-laws, my parents, my sister(s), brothers-in-law, grandparents, etc, etc that their god does not exist.  I don't need them to agree with me in order for us to care about each other.

 

I cannot say the same for my past religious self and I feel deeply terrible about that fact because I think I caused a number of people harm by my witnessing to them.  I think my parents, my sisters, and my sister's husband would have been better off if none of them had been exposed to evangelical Christianity through me.  I also think that in my years in Bible college when we were required to be involved in evangelism that I probably caused some of those people harm by my evangelism.  Yes, all of those people have the ability to make decisions for themselves, but that does not absolve me of my own responsibility for the ways in which it has subsequently harmed them.  If there is anything in my life that I wish I could take back, it was my efforts to try and convert people to evangelical Christianity.

 

I don't care one fig what anyone believes in their own personal religious life.  It's only when their personal life and beliefs spill over and cause other people who don't share those same beliefs harm.  It's only when people try to legislate their religious beliefs and behave as if their religious beliefs take precedent in our laws and customs over all others that it bothers me.

 

I imagine there are a lot of people that I encounter on a daily basis that have no idea I'm an atheist.  Ditto dh.  If asked, I'll share.  If my experiences or dh's experiences can help reassure someone or caution another person from being overly zealous with their teens or young adults in order to preserve a parent/adult child relationship, I'll say something.  If assumptions are made about how I'm a drug addicted, alcoholic, who has no sense of ethics because of my lack of religion or belief in gods, I'll speak up.  If someone else's freedoms are restricted because they are not part of an assumed dominant belief system I'll try to advocate on their behalf.

 

I'll advocate for my ethics, but the thing is there are plenty of religious people right beside me.  Lack of belief in gods not required.

Edited by mamaraby
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Actually, I think there would be a lot fewer angry atheists and anti-theists if people with religious beliefs weren't pushing so hard. The dominant belief permeates all aspects of society, including laws. Those who belong to the dominant belief system often don't see it, but those who are either atheists or of a different religious system do. 

 

I don't try to convince anyone that there are no supernatural beings and I really don't care who believes in them. It's only when I see it pushed on me or on society that I push back. We see it most often in relation to sexual orientation but there are other less obvious ways it's there. For example, every public school ballgame around here starts not only with an invocation, but with a Christian invocation. 

 

As I said upthread though, my family and friends who are religious are live and let live believers. I've never tried to deconvert them any more than they've tried to bring me back.

 

I think of it like people who like to talk about politics. Some people really enjoy keeping up with and analyzing current events, and others just... don't. Some atheists enjoy keeping up with and analyzing current events when they affect people due to religious beliefs, and others just... don't. So between a person who disagrees with what you're saying vs a person who just keeps quiet because it's not an interesting topic for them, who's more likely to be remembered? I think it's more likely to be confirmation bias that leads people to think atheists like to correct people's beliefs. The atheists who don't say anything are there, but people don't remember them (because they didn't say anything).

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I would like to have a chat with an open minded believer about what changes if we accept that we don't have as much free will as previously thought.  If my lack of belief is not under my free will, but determined by multiple influences, the idea that a God would condemn me eternally seems extremely capricious and cruel.

 

But it's probably too much down the rabbit hole.

 

I just learned about a Swedish cognition study about choice blindness. They found people will defend their choices, even when they don't make those choices, suggesting we act impulsively more than we realize and then justify our behavior (Lunds University: Choice Study Lab).

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Let's face it; atheists would probably like to convince Christians of their belief (or lack thereof) just as much as Christians would like to convince atheists that there is a God. I believe when one feels very strongly about a matter, they'd like others, especially those they care about, to agree.

 

Nope.  I am very close to my aunt and care for her deeply, and I am very glad that she has found fulfillment in being a minister.  Until she was ~40 she was a non-religious banker.  Around that time her dad died under very trying circumstance, she divorced her husband of 20 years and she decided to go to seminary school.  It was a wonderful decision for her and from my perspective she seems to be a much happier, more well-rounded and connected person than she was before.  I would never in a million years try to tell her that being an atheist is "better", because I truly don't know that it would be for her.

 

Wendy

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What gets me is that Blaise Pascal is literally the man who invented the roulette wheel. You'd think he'd have a better understanding of probability. (That link is to Friendly Atheist. Their comments section is completely unmoderated. I would just play the roulette and ignore the comments entirely.)

 

Plus, I don't know about you, but I can't force myself to believe something I don't believe, and what if whoever is in charge of the afterlife deplores self-serving hypocrisy?

Mmm-hmmm. That's one thing that always has me scratching my head when my pastor says, "you must believe." How does someone believe in something if they don't believe it? You could tell me it is imperitive the I believe there is a Loch Ness Monster, but if I am not persuaded that there is, how can I believe it?

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Let's face it; atheists would probably like to convince Christians of their belief (or lack thereof) just as much as Christians would like to convince atheists that there is a God. I believe when one feels very strongly about a matter, they'd like others, especially those they care about, to agree.

 

Not so much. I want people to be happy, and also good people. So long as their religion isn't hindering them in this, I don't care.

 

Now, there are things I want the whole world to agree with me on. It's a laundry list of controversial subjects - climate change, abortion, LGBT rights, affirmative action, religious freedom, socialism....

 

But there's actually not that much correlation between being religious and disagreeing with me on those subjects! Lots of religious Christians (and Jews and Muslims and Buddhists and Sikhs and Hindus and...) more or less agree with me on everything important to me! And lots of them and less religious members of those religions and atheists do not.

 

I know a lot of atheists can be super aggressive on the anti-theist front. Many of them are newly deconverted and, well, newbies are always a bit zealous. Others are simply frustrated from living in a society where Christians do tend to push their views all over everybody and then complain when others push back. (I'm aware this isn't all Christians, but the ones who do it are more than obnoxious enough for the rest of you.) This can make you a bit hard-edged. (And of course, some of those atheists are just jerks. I'm looking at you, Richard Dawkins.)

 

Here's the funny thing. There is a positive correlation between being the sort of atheist who randomly sneers at Christians for believing in a "magical sky daddy fairy" or spends all day pointing out inconsistencies in the Bible and being the sort of atheist who fundamentally disagrees with me on all the issues I consider important. I hate to say it, but religious folk do not hold the monopoly on racism, sexism, xenophobia, ablism, homophobia, etc. Nor are they actually the only ones who use stupid "logical" arguments which really aren't. I'd like to believe that atheists are all smarter and kinder and better than THOSE religious people, the ones who make the rest of you look bad - but sadly, the evidence here speaks for itself, and we're not. :(

 

I would like it if religious people would stop using the following arguments. We've all seen and refuted them before:

 

1. Pascal's Wager or, as I like to call it "he invented the roulette wheel, guys!"

 

2. The Lewis Trilemma. Now, Lewis was dead before David Koresh or Jim Jones became household names, that's fair, but you and I weren't.

 

3. The First Mover argument. All this does is push the issue further down - and even if we agreed that it shows a deity exists, it certainly doesn't prove that your deity exists and your religion is the correct one.

 

4. Any argument that boils down to "I know God is real because it's in the Bible, and I know the Bible is true because it's the Word of God". This is just silly.

 

5. Any argument that involves insulting atheists. I know I don't worship the devil, and I know I'm not a rape machine, so I'd appreciate it if you don't tell me I am to my face.

 

6. Any argument that claims that not believing in the Abrahamic deity involves as much faith without evidence as believing in that particular deity. If that were the case, we'd have to say that not believing in Santa requires faith, and not believing in Odin requires faith, and not believing in Zeus requires faith....

Edited by Tanaqui
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keep in mind your mother knows no other way of relating to those things.  this is her normal.

 

I'm religious - but my mother wasn't (for as long as I can remember), and my grandparents were.  (my paternal grandmother went to church regularly, said grace, etc.)

 

my mother was agnostic/atheist.  (she couldn't decide) - given her mother used religion as a weapon - I understand why.  I really do.

I don't think her mother bugged her much - she believed, but didn't actually go to church.  grandma liked televangelists. mention of tammy faye still makes my eyes hurt.  my paternal grandmother was religious, don't know if she said anything.  probably?  we had little contact with her, especially after my father died  (lived in the same general area.)   I was raised according to my mother's (non) beliefs, but got almost nothing from either of the grandmothers.

 

I eventually became religious, and my mother and I had discussions if I had something special I wanted to share with her.  (kinds of things you share with those closest to you.)    she was always respectful.  she always knew I loved her and treated her with respect.  (she also trusted me more than my siblings.)

 

my brother - changed beliefs to what was interesting at the moment. . he was into something new shortly before our mother died.  I know he was pushing her.  hard.   he tried to push me, and I would shut him down.  rolling my eyes was not enough to express how stupid whatever his latest was he got into. (it's weird. very weird.)  our very last conversation was actually her asking me  "what mormon's believe". I think she was asking for an antidote to the whatever it is my brother was pushing on her.  (it wasn't nice, it wasn't positive, i was livid when I found out because he routinely treated her with such a lack of respect)   it was the very last conversation we had - and among other things, I got to assure her how special i thought she was, and how much I loved her.  I will always treasure that.   a couple days later (I was recovering from a kidney infection, and had a 3yo undiagnosed aspie), I had a phone call from her retirement center they found her without a pulse. I removed her from life support a few days later. it's very sad when you're glad your mother is dead specifically so your brother can't harass her anymore.

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Well obviously I would be disappointed that he chose a different path, but he's my son and I love him. I'd listen to his thoughts and beliefs, and ultimately it would become a subject we likely wouldn't discuss. I'd be fine as long as he didn't try to make me feel my beliefs were wrong. I think that kind of thing can come from either side.

 

Let's face it; atheists would probably like to convince Christians of their belief (or lack thereof) just as much as Christians would like to convince atheists that there is a God. I believe when one feels very strongly about a matter, they'd like others, especially those they care about, to agree.

 

I'm definitely more agnostic than atheist, but . . .  no.

 

Like others have mentioned, it certainly makes me angry when Christians attempt to use their beliefs to justify depriving others of what IMO should be basic, equal rights and I hope I'll always stand against that. But that's different than wanting to convince others that my lack of belief or doubt is right and their belief is wrong. In my earlier post I said that I remember the comfort that comes with belief. I have no desire to deprive anyone of that, and so my own moral code prevents me from actively trying to change anyone's beliefs.

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Actually, I couldn't care less what other people believe about God/s. 

 

I do care about some behaviours that stem from particular religiously-justified beliefs. I will stand up and argue against those behaviours every time, but even as an anti-theist, I spend not one iota of my time trying to convince already religious people to give up their religion.

 

:iagree:  I don't care at all which god my mom prays to in order to get through the day. I do care that she keeps trying to tell me I'm worshiping Satan despite not believing in his existence. (Or that Doctor Who is obviously intended to lure people into Satan-worship. I mean honestly.) The only arguments about religion we've had weren't me trying to convince her that her god isn't real, but rather that the bible is anything but clear on the afterlife and hell. I think that believing all the people around you are destined for eternal torment if they don't follow your exact religious beliefs is harmful, both to her and the people around her.

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Well obviously I would be disappointed that he chose a different path, but he's my son and I love him. I'd listen to his thoughts and beliefs, and ultimately it would become a subject we likely wouldn't discuss. I'd be fine as long as he didn't try to make me feel my beliefs were wrong. I think that kind of thing can come from either side.

 

Let's face it; atheists would probably like to convince Christians of their belief (or lack thereof) just as much as Christians would like to convince atheists that there is a God. I believe when one feels very strongly about a matter, they'd like others, especially those they care about, to agree.

 

I've never tried to talk anyone out of their religious beliefs. Honestly, the topic just doesn't come up very often. On the rare occasion that someone does start telling me about their religious beliefs, I may be thinking in my head, "Hmmm, that doesn't really add up from a logical standpoint" - but there is no way I'm going to say that to them. People are free to choose their own beliefs and who am I to tell them they're wrong? 

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Let's face it; atheists would probably like to convince Christians of their belief (or lack thereof) just as much as Christians would like to convince atheists that there is a God. I believe when one feels very strongly about a matter, they'd like others, especially those they care about, to agree.

 

Completely untrue.  I have no desire to convince anyone of anything in that department. 

 

BUT sure there are some atheists who are like that.

 

And then it kinda bothers me when atheists are described as having some sort of belief.  As if the default is that there is in fact a god and atheists simply choose to believe otherwise.  It takes no leap of faith to believe in something with zero proof.

 

And I'm sure that'll rankle a few people, but ok.

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I'm not invested in convincing Christians or members of any religion that they are wrong or shouldn't believe. Whatever gives them peace, and helps them live a better life is fine with me. I'm pretty sure that anyone who meets me would know I'm not that type - I'm not an anti-theist, I'm not angry, and definitely have no interest in convincing anyone of anything.

 

I am an anthropologist, though, and I do sometimes have to curb my own questions about peoples' religions. I find religious practices fascinating. I fully respect religious customs when in the appropriate environment. So if I'm with my Orthodox family, elbows, knees, collarbones are covered, for example.

 

The perspective that atheists want to convert others, though... that's interesting. It's something I've only heard (personally) expressed by Christians. I've posited that it arises from the idea that Christians are to witness to others, spread the faith, give testimony, whatever one wants to call it. Since that is a fairly firm part of much of Christianity, I have wondered if it's led to the idea that [insert other group] must similarly try to spread their belief. That, of course, breaks down for me - because I have no belief system to spread. It's a non-belief. It's like saying I'm not a skier, and convincing others not to ski, but I don't really care if others ski or not. It's also just one tiny part of who I am, and not reflective of my personality.

 

The one thing I am deeply invested in, though, is ethics.

 

And separation of church and state. I want all of my family and friends to be free to practice their faith or non-faith, as I trust them all to be good people. And I don't want to see one faith's beliefs elevated to the point that they are legislated. That's going too far.

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This thread also makes me curious, and I hate to start yet another s/o thread, but I can if needed, whether atheists would be open to children growing up and choosing to seek out a faith to follow.

That's hard to answer without becoming some what offensive but I'll try.

 

Would I still love them and accept them and not harass them, yes. But I consider religion to be a bunch of woo-woo. Similar to how a Christian might look at someone who practices Wicca or believes in Astrology, I see it as very silly and illogical. So I would likely lose some respect for an adult child of mine who became religious (mono or poly wouldn't make a difference).  I would though refrain from pointing out the silliness of their beliefs as long as those beliefs didn't encourage intolerance (including to other religions).  This is rather a moot point since most my kids are staunchly atheist (or just don't care), liberal to the nth degree, and a couple of them are queer/bi-sexual (their terms for themselves). 

 

 

ETA: I could care less if others believe in a god or not as long as their belief does not infringe on my rights to be FREE from their belief.  I may have less respect for them in some ways (again I think religion is "silly") but hey, what ever you need to get you through the day is OK by me.  If it helps keep some people  "in line" and out of trouble then I am all for it.... again as long as those same people don't try to use it like a weapon to make me and others live as they want us to live.

Edited by foxbridgeacademy
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It doesn't usually come up IRL. My mom and immediate family there are either atheist, agnostic, or "I believe in god" but not religious at all. Friends I see IRL know and range from a similar "believe in god but not religious" to very, very religious. It never comes up with them. We have a mutual respect for each other as people and just choose not to go there and leave each other be.

 

My husband's extended family and my grandmother would possibly be a different story, but we're just not openly atheist with them. We don't see any of them often enough for it to need to be addressed. 

 

The most I get is the occasional facebook post that seems a bit targeted. But I would never call them on it because I could be wrong and they don't actually hurt me in any way so I just move along.

 

 

This thread also makes me curious, and I hate to start yet another s/o thread, but I can if needed, whether atheists would be open to children growing up and choosing to seek out a faith to follow.

I would love and accept them the same as ever, but I would be very disappointed. I would wonder and I may prod a bit/ask about it, but never in a way that belittled them, I would just want to try to understand why.

 

 

Let's face it; atheists would probably like to convince Christians of their belief (or lack thereof) just as much as Christians would like to convince atheists that there is a God. I believe when one feels very strongly about a matter, they'd like others, especially those they care about, to agree.

Yes and no. I'm not out to convince anyone and I certainly don't push atheism on anyone. I will be honest, I think the world in general would be better off without religion and it makes me sad when I see young children brought up in it. So from that standpoint, yes, I would love to see more people leave religion behind. However, I don't set out to make this happen. I never bring it up. I don't challenge someone's beliefs, even if they bring them up around me knowing I'm an atheist. Now if it comes up and they initiate a real discussion and ask me about it, I will gladly share why I don't believe in any gods. If they desire a friendly debate then I will engage. I wouldn't appreciate religious people pushing their faith at my door, on my facebook posts, to my kids, or any time something went wrong in my life so I won't push atheism in such ways, either. 

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I would like it if religious people would stop using the following arguments. We've all seen and refuted them before:

 

2. The Lewis Trilemma. Now, Lewis was dead before David Koresh or Jim Jones became household names, that's fair, but you and I weren't.

 

Wow, I've been living under a rock. But, nope, that's not going to convince me either.

 

I started reading McCaughrean's Roman Myths to the kids this evening. In the introduction, she writes: "In fact, it became quite difficult for a Roman to remember which of the countless gods to pray to and in which direction to address the prayer. It was safest just to begin: "To whom it may concern, wherever you are...".

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Wow, I've been living under a rock. But, nope, that's not going to convince me either.

 

I started reading McCaughrean's Roman Myths to the kids this evening. In the introduction, she writes: "In fact, it became quite difficult for a Roman to remember which of the countless gods to pray to and in which direction to address the prayer. It was safest just to begin: "To whom it may concern, wherever you are...".

 

I hadn't heard of the Lewis Trilemma before today. I had to google it. But it seems kind of narrow. What about:

 

4. He thought his message of love could help people but was afraid no one would listen to some barefoot homeless dude so he pretended to be the son of God to get people to pay attention.

 

I mean, surely there are options other than God, crazy, or evil.

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re free will and its limits

I would like to have a chat with an open minded believer about what changes if we accept that we don't have as much free will as previously thought.  If my lack of belief is not under my free will, but determined by multiple influences, the idea that a God would condemn me eternally seems extremely capricious and cruel.

 

But it's probably too much down the rabbit hole.

 

 

A version of this question comes up every Passover with respect to the bit in the Exodus story about God hardening Pharoah's heart.

 

(Being Judaism, there are more questions than definitive answers, lol...

 

...but you might enjoy some of the discussions.  In the more liberal strands, many rabbis and other commentators connect Pharoah's "hardened" heart to conditions like PTSD, substance addictions and mental health issues, and how such things impede the meaningful exercise of "free will.")

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I hadn't heard of the Lewis Trilemma before today. I had to google it. But it seems kind of narrow. What about:

 

4. He thought his message of love could help people but was afraid no one would listen to some barefoot homeless dude so he pretended to be the son of God to get people to pay attention.

 

I mean, surely there are options other than God, crazy, or evil.

 

I know, that one took only a few seconds to come up with. But even if there weren't any other options than god, crazy, or evil, that still wouldn't mean he must be god.

Edited by luuknam
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I hadn't heard of the Lewis Trilemma before today. I had to google it. But it seems kind of narrow. What about:

 

4. He thought his message of love could help people but was afraid no one would listen to some barefoot homeless dude so he pretended to be the son of God to get people to pay attention.

 

I mean, surely there are options other than God, crazy, or evil.

 

Doesn't work for me. Love that includes punishment for failure to reciprocate isn't love. And that's just for starters.

 

 

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Doesn't work for me. Love that includes punishment for failure to reciprocate isn't love. And that's just for starters.

 

Which doesn't mean that he didn't think he was spreading a message of love. Plenty of people who aren't clinically insane or evil believe stuff like that. So, #4 is still a valid possibility, imo.

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I really don't want to be "witnessed to" bc I used to believe and I already know all their arguments (and they're not convincing).  I draw the line with my kids, though.  If anyone threatens my children with hell, they will no longer be a part of their lives.  I honestly think that's a form of child abuse - telling a child he will burn in hell for eternity if he doesn't believe a story.  I know Christians spin it in a way that sounds better (he died for you so you wouldn't have to go to hell - it's a gift you just have to accept), but it really boils down to God saying, "I love you, but if you don't love me back (or believe this story with no evidence) I will torture you forever."  If your only choice is to accept a gift or go to hell, then it's not a gift; it's a threat.  

 

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This thread also makes me curious, and I hate to start yet another s/o thread, but I can if needed, whether atheists would be open to children growing up and choosing to seek out a faith to follow.

 

my mother was agnostic/atheist.  she freaked out in the beginning, thought it was a phase.  even brought a bunch of antimormon stuff into the house and left it laying around. for months.  she denied it was her.  yeah, right.  we're the only ones who live here.   she eventually came to believe, and said as much on numerous occasions,  it was a very good thing for me, and she was very supportive.  my 'loved to watch the televangelists' grandmother . . . . WASP was an overly broad definition to her.  I think if she could have, I would have been disowned.  my mother looked into the methodist faith when she was a teenager.  my grandmother had a cow because it was the "wrong one" to her.  but she was a very controlling woman.

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I have a mostly low opinion people who try to convert friends and family. Offering support, sharing information, answering questions when it is sought out...all fine. But a concerted effort to get a family member to change their religion is something I have experience with and something that will always bother me.

 

My mom's family never accepted that she converted to Catholicism. They are a particular sort of nebulous Protestant and they think the Catholic Church is evil and the Pope is the AntiChrist. Several of her family members were relentless about this and there were times we just didn't talk to them. My maternal grandmother was a batshit felon who seriously abused my mother and never made any effort to take responsibility for her actions. So honestly I can't say I consider her to be a moral or religious exemplar.

 

Anyways, my mom died of cancer when she was just 55. My grandmother was about 13 when she started having kids so she was still very much alive while my mother was in the final years of her life. Before she died, I had to cut her mother and sisters off from contacting her because they were trying to browbeat her into renouncing Catholicism and becoming a Christian. She was super sick and dealing with radiation, chemo and surgical procedures and they were trying to save her soul by their own narrow definition of Christianity. (Yes, Catholics are Christians but they don't believe that.) My mother, especially from age 30 onwards led an exemplary life of volunteerism and her mourners included everyone from homeless men on the street to the local elected officials. My mom did more for people in a week than her family of origin had collectively done their entire lives. But they were intent on saving her.

 

First, on finding her in tears at home on the phone with her mother screaming at her about hellfire, I disconnected her number after telling my grandmother that should there be a hell, my mother would not be going there. Then, we had to block all numbers in their area code from coming through at her hospice. After my mother passed, I spoke to my grandmother for the last time and told her that should she show up for my mother's funeral, she would be turned away. She wanted to come and make a big dramarama show of how she lost her daughter. I wasn't having that shizznit.

 

While I get that mine is an extreme example, it is one that has permanently colored my view of the matter.

Edited by LucyStoner
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This thread also makes me curious, and I hate to start yet another s/o thread, but I can if needed, whether atheists would be open to children growing up and choosing to seek out a faith to follow.

Absolutely, provided it was safe. I would even help facilitate their search by taking them to services or buying them materials about the faith or faiths they wanted to explore.

 

By safe I mean, I'll take them to a Baptist church but not Westboro Baptist church. If they want to go join Westboro or some white supremacist group, they will just have to wait until they are adults.

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I have a mostly low opinion people who try to convert friends and family. Offering support, sharing information, answering questions when it is sought out...all fine. But a concerted effort to get a family member to change their religion is something I have experience with and something that will always bother me.

 

My mom's family never accepted that she converted to Catholicism. They are a particular sort of nebulous Protestant and they think the Catholic Church is evil and the Pope is the AntiChrist. Several of her family members were relentless about this and there were times we just didn't talk to them. My maternal grandmother was a batshit felon who seriously abused my mother and never made any effort to take responsibility for her actions. So honestly I can't say I consider her to be a moral or religious exemplar.

 

Anyways, my mom died of cancer when she was just 55. My grandmother was about 13 when she started having kids so she was still very much alive while my mother was in the final years of her life. Before she died, I had to cut her mother and sisters off from contacting her because they were trying to browbeat her into renouncing Catholicism and becoming a Christian. She was super sick and dealing with radiation, chemo and surgical procedures and they were trying to save her soul by their own narrow definition of Christianity. (Yes, Catholics are Christians but they don't believe that.) My mother, especially from age 30 onwards led an exemplary life of volunteerism and her mourners included everyone from homeless men on the street to the local elected officials. My mom did more for people in a week than her family of origin had collectively done their entire lives. But they were intent on saving her.

 

First, on finding her in tears at home on the phone with her mother screaming at her about hellfire, I disconnected her number after telling my grandmother that should there be a hell, my mother would not be going there. Then, we had to block all numbers in their area code from coming through at her hospice. After my mother passed, I spoke to my grandmother for the last time and told her that should she show up for my mother's funeral, she would be turned away. She wanted to come and make a big dramarama show of how she lost her daughter. I wasn't having that shizznit.

 

While I get that mine is an extreme example, it is one that has permanently colored my view of the matter.

 

That's pretty disgusting.

 

 

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Which doesn't mean that he didn't think he was spreading a message of love. Plenty of people who aren't clinically insane or evil believe stuff like that. So, #4 is still a valid possibility, imo.

 

I don't believe in the concept of evil.  But clinically insane...I perked up.  I DO associate some more "out there" religious ideas and mental illness.  I have enough examples of it in my own life where I can't ignore the connection.  Are all nuts?  I don't know.  I have not personally met people who didn't seem to have some screws loose who were like that. 

 

Although to be fair, now that I know more details about my dad's upbringing I (possibly) understand why every time he had a manic high he started getting weirdly religious.  That's how his parents responded to his illness when he was a child.  He once tried to kill himself in the third grade.  Instead of thinking something could be wrong with his health, they treated it as if he had sinned and made him go to confession and pray a lot.  It didn't help by the way.

 

 

 

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Let's face it; atheists would probably like to convince Christians of their belief (or lack thereof) just as much as Christians would like to convince atheists that there is a God. I believe when one feels very strongly about a matter, they'd like others, especially those they care about, to agree.

 

Not here. I don't care what gods anyone believes in, so long as they don't use their beliefs to try to impose on others.

 

Not too long ago, I made some sort of statement about the nonexistence of gods in my own home, and my daughters (both anti-religion atheists) were outraged that I'd be so blatant in front of my 9yo.  They're very insistent that he be allowed to weigh the evidence for himself, as they did.  Not that I didn't influence them, but I suppose I was much more careful with my words when the first batch of kids was growing up.  Enough so that they obviously feel I did it right!

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Let's face it; atheists would probably like to convince Christians of their belief (or lack thereof) just as much as Christians would like to convince atheists that there is a God. I believe when one feels very strongly about a matter, they'd like others, especially those they care about, to agree.

 

Statistically speaking, it's less likely.  A number of faiths see conversion of non-believers as part of their religion.  This makes them more likely to go out and convert people.

 

Although there may be individual atheists who would want to educate others in what they see as the truth, they don't have a whole religion behind them telling them they have to do it.

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No really, I wouldn't.  It's not my business what you believe.  Believe what you like so long as you treat people decently.  I'm an atheist not a campaigning anti-theist.

 

This thread has more information:

 

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/475016-ask-an-atheist/

 

I don't know - I kind of think "as likely" is accurate.  Some people wish others had the same worldview as themselves, others don't care, and some are pushy about it.  It doesn't seem to matter much whether they call themselves religious or not.

 

In my family, I have a Catholic great-aunt who is pushy, and an atheist cousin who is really pushy.  Ironically, the great-aunt is the godmother of that cousin and neither of them really know a darn thing about what they are talking about.  It's like a sort of weird generational mirror.

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I would like to have a chat with an open minded believer about what changes if we accept that we don't have as much free will as previously thought.  If my lack of belief is not under my free will, but determined by multiple influences, the idea that a God would condemn me eternally seems extremely capricious and cruel.

 

But it's probably too much down the rabbit hole.

 

That's a fairly common critisism of Calvinism.  I've heard non-Calvinist Christians go so far as to say they think that Calvinism makes God evil.  Personally I tend to agree in the abstract though I don't imagine most Calvinists are in any way trying to say that and would think that was a horrible thing.

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I hadn't heard of the Lewis Trilemma before today. I had to google it. But it seems kind of narrow. What about:

 

4. He thought his message of love could help people but was afraid no one would listen to some barefoot homeless dude so he pretended to be the son of God to get people to pay attention.

 

I mean, surely there are options other than God, crazy, or evil.

 

I think Lewis would have considered tat to be a pretty significant lie, and also, for a Jew of that period, blasphemy.

 

I think with this argument,  it's important to remember that it mainly comes from a popular radio broadcast Lewis made for a specific population.  It was really targeted to people who were coming from a set of beliefs already and were making particular sorts of arguments.  So, its targeted to their concerns and its also, being radio, a pretty short explanation.  At the time, some of Lewis' friends felt the radio broadcasts were too shallow to be really helpful, though many people still read them and seem to find them useful.

 

A thought he didn't address in the broadcasts was that it might have been Jesus' followers that changed his message about being the son of God.  He wasn't unaware of it though, and he talks about that idea in some of his work addressed to people like theological students. 

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A little different for us, because we are Buddhist, not atheist. In practice, I think it works out basically the same. 

Everyone is extremely respectful of our faith. It rarely comes up. 

 

 

This thread also makes me curious, and I hate to start yet another s/o thread, but I can if needed, whether atheists would be open to children growing up and choosing to seek out a faith to follow.

 

Again, not atheist, but yeah. I don't care. It's a personal choice that each of them has to work that out for themselves. 

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Completely untrue. I have no desire to convince anyone of anything in that department.

 

BUT sure there are some atheists who are like that.

 

And then it kinda bothers me when atheists are described as having some sort of belief. As if the default is that there is in fact a god and atheists simply choose to believe otherwise. It takes no leap of faith to believe in something with zero proof.

 

And I'm sure that'll rankle a few people, but ok.

Do you really believe there is zero proof? Do you believe that every bit of evidence people have produced pointing to God/Jesus is totally false/made-up? Not being snarky - legitimate questions.

 

I'm asking because obviously there are millions and millions of people who believe there is proof.

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I don't know - I kind of think "as likely" is accurate.  Some people wish others had the same worldview as themselves, others don't care, and some are pushy about it.  It doesn't seem to matter much whether they call themselves religious or not.

 

 

I think that might vary country by country.  I haven't met aggressive atheists in Britain, although they exist (Dawkins, etc).  Both atheism and Christianity in the UK are considered pretty much a private matter: I only tend to find out that someone goes to church if it comes up in practical circumstances - they can't come over because they are at a church event, etc.  The only proselytising that I have experienced in the last eight years has been from JWs dropping by at my old place of work every six months, so that's one up for Christians in my personal experience.

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Absolutely, provided it was safe. I would even help facilitate their search by taking them to services or buying them materials about the faith or faiths they wanted to explore.

 

By safe I mean, I'll take them to a Baptist church but not Westboro Baptist church. If they want to go join Westboro or some white supremacist group, they will just have to wait until they are adults.

Well *I* wouldn't want to know anyone that attended Westboro Baptist church.

 

I think the saddest thing out of this entire thread is seeing how the extreme behavior of some Christians drives people away, and makes them think terribly of Christianity. I'm pretty sure that is exactly the opposite of what Jesus would've wanted.

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Do you really believe there is zero proof? Do you believe that every bit of evidence people have produced pointing to God/Jesus is totally false/made-up? Not being snarky - legitimate questions.

 

I'm asking because obviously there are millions and millions of people who believe there is proof.

 

There may have been a historical Jesus.  I don't think that the stories of godhead, miracles, etc are necessarily false in the sense of being lies, nor do they have to be deliberately made up.  Oppressed people in desperate times create stories of hope and yearn to believe them.

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I think that might vary country by country.  I haven't met aggressive atheists in Britain, although they exist (Dawkins, etc).  Both atheism and Christianity in the UK are considered pretty much a private matter: I only tend to find out that someone goes to church if it comes up in practical circumstances - they can't come over because they are at a church event, etc.  The only proselytising that I have experienced in the last eight years has been from JWs dropping by at my old place of work every six months, so that's one up for Christians in my personal experience.

 

Only "place" I encounter aggressive atheists are on-line.  I encounter aggressive religious people on-line and off-line.  But that could simply be because there are a lot more religious people.  And the most aggressive atheists (because I do talk to some on Facebook) are from parts of the country that tend to be very unfriendly towards atheists.  I live in a very secular area so it's not hard to be an atheist here. 

 

I follow the e-mails of a local atheist group.  I have yet to meet up with these people.  They do occasionally get involved with atheist related activism, but it's all about protections for atheists and not attempts to squash religion or convert people. (Mostly they are a social group though.)

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I'm not invested in convincing Christians or members of any religion that they are wrong or shouldn't believe. Whatever gives them peace, and helps them live a better life is fine with me. I'm pretty sure that anyone who meets me would know I'm not that type - I'm not an anti-theist, I'm not angry, and definitely have no interest in convincing anyone of anything.

 

I am an anthropologist, though, and I do sometimes have to curb my own questions about peoples' religions. I find religious practices fascinating. I fully respect religious customs when in the appropriate environment. So if I'm with my Orthodox family, elbows, knees, collarbones are covered, for example.

 

The perspective that atheists want to convert others, though... that's interesting. It's something I've only heard (personally) expressed by Christians. I've posited that it arises from the idea that Christians are to witness to others, spread the faith, give testimony, whatever one wants to call it. Since that is a fairly firm part of much of Christianity, I have wondered if it's led to the idea that [insert other group] must similarly try to spread their belief. That, of course, breaks down for me - because I have no belief system to spread. It's a non-belief. It's like saying I'm not a skier, and convincing others not to ski, but I don't really care if others ski or not. It's also just one tiny part of who I am, and not reflective of my personality.

 

The one thing I am deeply invested in, though, is ethics.

 

And separation of church and state. I want all of my family and friends to be free to practice their faith or non-faith, as I trust them all to be good people. And I don't want to see one faith's beliefs elevated to the point that they are legislated. That's going too far.

I think there are certainly atheists who would like to convince Christians that their beliefs don't make sense. There are zealots everywhere.

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Well *I* wouldn't want to know anyone that attended Westboro Baptist church.

 

I think the saddest thing out of this entire thread is seeing how the extreme behavior of some Christians drives people away, and makes them think terribly of Christianity. I'm pretty sure that is exactly the opposite of what Jesus would've wanted.

 

It's sad when people act like jerks towards each other.  For sure.  However, not all atheists are atheists because they have been wronged by religion or wronged by religious people behaving badly.   All the religious people could suddenly decide to be nice to me and that wouldn't change my mind. 

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There may have been a historical Jesus. I don't think that the stories of godhead, miracles, etc are necessarily false in the sense of being lies, nor do they have to be deliberately made up. Oppressed people in desperate times create stories of hope and yearn to believe them.

I guess I just don't believe that every Christian who believes is a desperate person living in a desperate time. There are people who become Christian every day (and I'm sure people who realize they are atheist as well). I just find it hard to believe that there isn't a shred of evidence or truth to support something that millions of people believe in. I mean every Christian isn't an idiot; there are a lot of scholars that have studied for years. There are atheists that have become Christian trying to prove there was no God. There has to be some evidence.

 

I'm not saying anyone HAS to believe it, but can you really say there is absolutely NO proof?

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Well *I* wouldn't want to know anyone that attended Westboro Baptist church.

 

I think the saddest thing out of this entire thread is seeing how the extreme behavior of some Christians drives people away, and makes them think terribly of Christianity. I'm pretty sure that is exactly the opposite of what Jesus would've wanted.

Yes, it probably does drive people away, but the extreme behavior isn't the reason I personally don't/can't believe (despite trying, becoming rather zealous as a young teen, and being raised with evangelicals). The extreme behavior certainly adds to it, though.

 

I could say the same about the extreme behavior of a relatively few members about many religions or groups driving people away. Islam comes to mind, in the immediate.

 

Atheism isn't a religion, and there isn't a cohesive group or way of thinking, but I see the same "turn off" from some theist people after encountering an angry atheist. Suddenly all atheists are lumped together as [insert the chosen word here: for Mergath's mom it might be Satan worshippers, for someone else it might be "they're all trying to convince us to become atheist.") Really, though, most atheists are none of those things (actually Satan worshippers doesn't work at all, since most might say there's no Satan!).

 

It's never a good idea to judge a huge group of people based on the actions of a few.

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