Dealing With Racist Relatives at Christmas...JAWM

[JumpyTheFrog]

Racist relatives suck - especially the type that like to buy and decorate small plastic gorillas and name them after famous black politicians and/or their wives.

 

Not looking for advice. Just looking to commiserate with others.

[Twigs]

:grouphug:  :grouphug:  :grouphug:

[Chelle in MO]

Oh, my gosh. That is horrible! I'm so sorry.

[maize]

Sometimes not being able to choose your relatives is a real downer.

 

Do you have to spend time with these folks?

[Janeway]

That sounds awful!!!!

 

I think I would have nothing to do with them. I have no tolerance for that stuff.

[OneStepAtATime]

I don't think I could do it.  I'm sorry if you feel you have no choice.  That's sickening.   :grouphug:

Edited December 23, 2016 by OneStepAtATime

[Anne in CA]

I am sorry. That sounds vile.

[Farrar]

Wow. And I thought my racist relatives were bad.

 

I am struggling with this more than ever, as I'm guessing a lot of white folks are.

[hornblower]

:svengo:

[UCF612]

Wow that's horrible.

[hjffkj]

I'd take that damn gorilla and throw it away. If that meant I never got invited back to their house then good.

 

Sorry you have to deal with that. I'm sure I have at least one racist family member but they aren't obvious about it so I can live with it because I can't tell for sure. The one uncle I had who was incredibly racist, told me never to marry a black man( so thankful my dad was there and told me I could marry whoever I wanted in front of my uncle) passed away last year.

[freesia]

Do you have to go?

 

I'm not sure I could.

[TranquilMind]

Wow, really? Who DOES that? Yikes.

[JFSinIL]

Don't go to their house. Do not invite them into your house. Or if you must connect, call them out on their racism. Calmly.  You won't change their minds, but YOU will feel a bit better, and demonstrate to your kids that you CAN and SHOULD call folks out for racist remarks, etc. 

Edited December 23, 2016 by JFSinIL

[bibiche]

I have one (well, the BF of a cousin) who actually believes POC are racist when they point out racist behavior or call racists out on their racism. Really! What kind of racist jerk could twist it around to make the *victim* of racist behavior the racist one?!!

 

Good luck dealing with the awful racists. Unfortunately, they seem to feel empowered recently. I think we just have to stand up to them and not tolerate it, no matter how uncomfortable it might make everyone. Racist behavior is never acceptable.

[OneStepAtATime]

I'd take that damn gorilla and throw it away. 

This made me smile.   :hurray:  :hurray:  :hurray:

[Gentlemommy]

Bring post it notes and cover the written names with names of your own...like members of that family?😜JK, but that sounds horrid. So sorry you have to go.

[Carol in Cal.]

Wow, that is horrible.

[Tangerine]

WHAT?  This is Christmas, Christmas, right? Like the Baby Jesus, peace on earth, goodwill toward men Christmas?

[Farrar]

You know, I'd love to read more by white allies who deal with these issues in a better way. I feel like there are these two paths that people end up taking, neither of which feels satisfying. Either you cut those people out of your life and lose them. Which feels justified and, I dunno, lets you feel righteous and better than, which isn't so hot as emotions go, but doesn't change their minds and makes you lose family. Or you basically ignore them and pass the bean dip when they say this stuff or maybe say, "I disagree" to get yourself on record, but you don't engage. And then you're basically standing there enabling racism on some level.

 

I do think there's some middle path - engaging without being confrontational or nasty maybe, but it's really hard to figure out how to walk it. And whether it can be walked all the time and if it can't when to walk way. On the surface, it feels like people who name gorillas after black politicians might be walk away candidates. But... I don't know.

[maize]

WHAT? This is Christmas, Christmas, right? Like the Baby Jesus, peace on earth, goodwill toward men Christmas?

Don't you know that Jesus was white--blond and blue-eyed too? That's the kind of men that goodwill applies to. The others are just apes.

 

(I'm trying to decide what kinds of plastic figurines you could buy to name after these relatives...so far I haven't been able to think of anything obnoxious enough.)

[zoobie]

Oh heck no I couldn't go there. I wouldn't go anywhere with Barbie rape scenes either. These people are vile. It's okay to stay away from them!

[Kassia]

Racist relatives suck - especially the type that like to buy and decorate small plastic gorillas and name them after famous black politicians and/or their wives.

 

Not looking for advice. Just looking to commiserate with others.

 

That is horrifying.  I'm sorry.

[maize]

You know, I'd love to read more by white allies who deal with these issues in a better way. I feel like there are these two paths that people end up taking, neither of which feels satisfying. Either you cut those people out of your life and lose them. Which feels justified and, I dunno, lets you feel righteous and better than, which isn't so hot as emotions go, but doesn't change their minds and makes you lose family. Or you basically ignore them and pass the bean dip when they say this stuff or maybe say, "I disagree" to get yourself on record, but you don't engage. And then you're basically standing there enabling racism on some level.

 

I do think there's some middle path - engaging without being confrontational or nasty maybe, but it's really hard to figure out how to walk it. And whether it can be walked all the time and if it can't when to walk way. On the surface, it feels like people who name gorillas after black politicians might be walk away candidates. But... I don't know.

I think it really depends on the person. Some might do the gorilla thing without really intending harm--meant as a goofy insult but without a ton of thought behind it. That kind might be open to discussion.

 

If it is someone with really entrenched racial prejudice (not just picked up from the environment) I think it is doubtful you would get anywhere. "I really don't think that's funny. Could you please pass the bean dip?" May be the best you can do.

 

I guess the age of the relative would matter to me too--older folks? Not likely to change their minds at this point. But also a product of their time, I make some allowance for that. Young? Possibly more flexible in their opinions and worth engaging in discussion with.

Edited December 23, 2016 by maize

[Farrar]

I think it really depends on the person. Some might do the gorilla thing without really intending harm--meant as a goofy insult but without a ton of thought behind it. That kind might be open to discussion.

 

If it is someone with really entrenched racial prejudice (not just picked up from the environment) I think it is doubtful you would get anywhere. "I really don't think that's funny. Could you please pass the bean dip?" May be the best you can do.

 

I guess the age of the relative would matter to me too--older folks? Not likely to change their minds at this point. But also a product of their time, I make some allowance for that. Young? Possibly more flexible in their opinions and worth engaging in discussion with.

 

Maybe. I definitely struggle to worry about my grandmother's racism really. I mean, she was born in the Great Depression. She only has a 6th grade education. She picked cotton and worked in a factory for most of her life. Her frame of reference is so far from mine that it might as well be on another planet. ETA: Though, I should add that while I have struggled to call her on saying crazy racist things, my kids don't at all. They're just like, whoa, what the hell did you just say, that is so racist and not okay. And she's always just like, oh, is it, sorry. Because who can be mean to their own great-grandchildren, I guess.

 

But I guess I'm sort of at a point where I feel like I see other white people say they're changing things from within, but they aren't. Or say that they can't do any good anyway, so they may as well just pass the bean dip. Except... it's one thing to say, okay, pass the bean dip when it comes to her mother being a narcissist or your uncle mouthing off about homeschooling or your brother complaining about stupid food allergy rules seemingly forgetting again that your kids have food allergies. And it's yet another to say pass the bean dip after your sister in law uses the N word or your uncle talks about how "those people" are bringing the schools down. It's like... can there ever be a justification for not speaking up in those situations? Should you be able to look a black friend in the eye after sitting through something like that without speaking up?

Edited December 23, 2016 by Farrar

[Garga]

Sounds miserable! I have no idea how to handle something like that and I can see how you'd dread going.

[DawnM]

Racist relatives suck - especially the type that like to buy and decorate small plastic gorillas and name them after famous black politicians and/or their wives.

 

Not looking for advice. Just looking to commiserate with others.

 

 

:ohmy:  :ohmy:  :ohmy:

 

Wow.  

 

I have racist relatives, but I don't know any that do that.  

 

I would have a hard time with that.  Really hard.

[MSNative]

You know, I'd love to read more by white allies who deal with these issues in a better way. I feel like there are these two paths that people end up taking, neither of which feels satisfying. Either you cut those people out of your life and lose them. Which feels justified and, I dunno, lets you feel righteous and better than, which isn't so hot as emotions go, but doesn't change their minds and makes you lose family. Or you basically ignore them and pass the bean dip when they say this stuff or maybe say, "I disagree" to get yourself on record, but you don't engage. And then you're basically standing there enabling racism on some level.

 

I do think there's some middle path - engaging without being confrontational or nasty maybe, but it's really hard to figure out how to walk it. And whether it can be walked all the time and if it can't when to walk way. On the surface, it feels like people who name gorillas after black politicians might be walk away candidates. But... I don't know.

I'm usually one arguing for finding a middle path and changing from within. In this case though I'm not sure. By the time someone is willing to name gorillas after politicians I think I might walk away. I was going to say unless they had a cheeto they named after a certain other politician. But even then I think I'd see that as sort of lame cover for racism.

Some people seem open to thoughtful discussion. Others not so much. By the time someone goes that far I think I'd choose to avoid them all together.

[poppy]

I was about to say, don't bring your kids near them. Then I remembered my uncle Dave. That whole side of the family was racist.... 2 dozen people and every year joking about oh no what if a black family moves next door, well at least they'd be good dancers, etc. This was 5% of the conversation but 35 years later looms large in my memory - know what I mean ? The worst was uncle Dave, who brought up black male sexual a LOT. Speculation sbout Benson and the white women in the governors office. He got my mom a copy of the movie Mandingo for Christmas one year, as a joke. We only saw them once a year and my memory is powerful. It didn't hurt me, it was just an eye opening annual trip. To see this was perfectly normal dinner conversation to *so many* people who are otherwise nice and kind and normal. Better to know its there than think people who talk about it are exaggerating or making it up.

[maize]

Maybe. I definitely struggle to worry about my grandmother's racism really. I mean, she was born in the Great Depression. She only has a 6th grade education. She picked cotton and worked in a factory for most of her life. Her frame of reference is so far from mine that it might as well be on another planet. ETA: Though, I should add that while I have struggled to call her on saying crazy racist things, my kids don't at all. They're just like, whoa, what the hell did you just say, that is so racist and not okay. And she's always just like, oh, is it, sorry. Because who can be mean to their own great-grandchildren, I guess.

 

But I guess I'm sort of at a point where I feel like I see other white people say they're changing things from within, but they aren't. Or say that they can't do any good anyway, so they may as well just pass the bean dip. Except... it's one thing to say, okay, pass the bean dip when it comes to her mother being a narcissist or your uncle mouthing off about homeschooling or your brother complaining about stupid food allergy rules seemingly forgetting again that your kids have food allergies. And it's yet another to say pass the bean dip after your sister in law uses the N word or your uncle talks about how "those people" are bringing the schools down. It's like... can there ever be a justification for not speaking up in those situations? Should you be able to look a black friend in the eye after sitting through something like that without speaking up?

 

I don't know. I wouldn't call my grandmother out on something like that. It was interesting to watch my grandmother's brother struggle to accept the results of DNA ancestry testing that showed a non-insignificant percentage of African DNA--he grew up with the whole 1 drop philosophy; and certainly never expected it to apply to himself. My family members though are not generally overtly racist and whatever undertones there are are truly just a result of the culture they grew up in. 

 

I do speak up when people in my generation or near it make comments that de-humanize and otherize entire groups of people. Sometimes it's just to register disagreement; if the situation and relationship are such that a more thoughtful discussion is possible I might attempt to show them a different way to view things. Mostly what I see is entirely normal human reactions of fear and distrust of whoever is perceived as outside one's own group. Experiencing such distrust does not strike me as a moral failing; I think it has deep basis in our brain function. It can however be overcome by the more rational parts of the brain and that is what we need to work towards.

Edited December 23, 2016 by maize

[Farrar]

I'm usually one arguing for finding a middle path and changing from within. In this case though I'm not sure. By the time someone is willing to name gorillas after politicians I think I might walk away. I was going to say unless they had a cheeto they named after a certain other politician. But even then I think I'd see that as sort of lame cover for racism.

Some people seem open to thoughtful discussion. Others not so much. By the time someone goes that far I think I'd choose to avoid them all together.

 

I'm guessing that the bigger problem comes when some other relatives do stand by the gorilla namers. So you want to cut off ties with the gorilla namers but grandma doesn't, so either you don't go to Christmas at grandma's or you put up with the gorilla namers. And you don't want to call grandma racist for standing by the racists, except, if you want to call them on it, you're stuck doing that.

[goldberry]

It was interesting to watch my grandmother's brother struggle to accept the results of DNA ancestry testing that showed a non-insignificant percentage of African DNA--he grew up with the whole 1 drop philosophy; and certainly never expected it to apply to himself. 

 

That would be VERY interesting to watch! 

[goldberry]

dp 

 

Edited December 23, 2016 by goldberry

[maize]

I don't think the gorilla thing can ever be excused as 'not intending harm'.

Some people just don't think. They're the ones who can be helped to think though.

[poppy]

Sorry. my imagination just can't get to the point of seeing someone do that as a thoughtless joke. It's about as racist as you can get, calling a black man a monkey.

 

I guess a child who was just copying what she saw around her - there might be a chance there.

 

It's not racist, he just looks like a gorilla!

People compared George W Bush to a monkey too... if it wasn't' racist, then why it is racist now? What a double standard.

Actually, it's worse than that ! Being accused of racism is MUCH worse than an innocent joke .

 

We've seen it play out here and I'm sure that is exactly what would go through their minds..... they'd be the victims.

[KarenC]

Wow.  I don't even know what to say.  Not the kind of people I want around my children.

[maize]

Sorry. my imagination just can't get to the point of seeing someone do that as a thoughtless joke. It's about as racist as you can get, calling a black man a monkey.

 

I guess a child who was just copying what she saw around her - there might be a chance there.

I didn't say it wasn't racist, but people can be unthinking racists; they pick stuff up from their environment. It is possible for people to be racist without malice. That doesn't mean the racism isn't real or harmful, but it doesn't necessarily come from a black evil pit in a person's heart.

 

Those people can learn.

 

The label "racist" like most labels can be used to dehumanize and otherwise groups of people. If we use it that way, as a way of designating "those folks" as terrible, horrible, no-good, very bad human beings--we close all opportunity for productive dialogue with them.

 

If is only when we view people--ALL people--as fully human, with strengths and goodness along with weakness and prejudice--that we have a chance to maybe walk alongside them and lead them to a different way of thinking. Farrar was wondering what CAN we do to change racism; to help any person change their way of thinking, we have to first be able to see good or at least potential for good in that person.

 

If all we want to do is make ourselves feel good, condemnation works. In the context of a JAWM thread that is fine, and I joined right in. But if we actually want to tackle the question of how to bring about change, we have to move beyond condemnation. Telling someone "you're a bad person!" or making that the basis of our interactions with them has never lead to positive change.

Edited December 23, 2016 by maize

[SparklyUnicorn]

wow...that's pretty bad

 

big hugs...

 

 

[Carrie12345]

I am so sorry that's a factor in your life!

 

I'm still working on my own methods of dealing with racist/bigoted people (though I haven't faced a horror that outright, thus far!)  I'm not fully opposed to just removing myself/my family from the situation when... "reeducation" isn't likely.  If a tree is GOING to fall in a forest and I can't cover EVERYONE'S ears, my kids don't have to hear the sound.

 

That said, I was completely surprised to have made some progress with my grandfather years ago.  He was of the whole "I have black friends" racist perspective, and it made me sad and angry over my entire childhood.  When my oldest 3 kids were very little, he said something terrible, and it took every bit of courage I had to simply look at him and say, "We are not going to have our children grow up listening to that kind of talk.  You can't do that to them."  He didn't really respond, but I never heard another negative word out of his mouth over the few years before he died.  And he and my kids had wonderfully close relationships.

 

IME, it's always worth trying.

[Seasider]

Maybe you could offer to water their houseplants. Make their "toys" go the way of the leg lamp.

 

I'm so sorry. I hope you can at least have effective discussions with your children about the situation.

[JumpyTheFrog]

You know, I'd love to read more by white allies who deal with these issues in a better way. I feel like there are these two paths that people end up taking, neither of which feels satisfying. Either you cut those people out of your life and lose them. Which feels justified and, I dunno, lets you feel righteous and better than, which isn't so hot as emotions go, but doesn't change their minds and makes you lose family. Or you basically ignore them and pass the bean dip when they say this stuff or maybe say, "I disagree" to get yourself on record, but you don't engage. And then you're basically standing there enabling racism on some level.

 

Yes, I hope there is somebody out there that has some more practical advice for people in similar situations than just "risk cutting out out your spouse's entire side of the family."

 

 

I think it really depends on the person. Some might do the gorilla thing without really intending harm

 

Oh, he absolutely knows what he is doing. There are several gorillas. There is one on top of a tree, one in a Christmas wreath (that's the new one this year), and the collection decorated as a disco with a dance floor and colored lights. He's always been very racist (raised that way) and it doesn't help he spent decades working as a foreman building and renovating prisons and mental hospitals. It means most of his contact with black people has been with violent criminals. Also, in the area of the country they live in, blacks almost completely live in violent, inner city areas with horrible crime rates. It is very rare to come across a middle class black family living normal lives in the suburbs, so there is never anything to challenge stereotypes at all.

 

 

if the situation and relationship are such that a more thoughtful discussion is possible I might attempt to show them a different way to view things. 

 

This particular person believes he is always right about everything, no matter how much someone else actually knows about the topic. There is no "showing him another way" about anything, let alone his racism. 

 

I'm guessing that the bigger problem comes when some other relatives do stand by the gorilla namers. So you want to cut off ties with the gorilla namers but grandma doesn't, so either you don't go to Christmas at grandma's or you put up with the gorilla namers. And you don't want to call grandma racist for standing by the racists, except, if you want to call them on it, you're stuck doing that.

 

 

Exactly. I'm glad you recognize that the problem isn't as simple as "just don't see these people anymore." I had originally posted many more details last night, but I was afraid everyone would automatically tell me to cut FIL off, which would probably chop out most of my kids' relatives. It's hard to know who else is actually racist in the family versus who else is quietly uncomfortable but doesn't say anything because they know that nobody ever gets him to change his mind about anything. I have never seen it nor heard of it happening about anything more important than perhaps a discussion of what to cook for dinner.

 

Ugh, I wish I didn't have to deal with this.

[bibiche]

Could your husband speak to him about it? Ask him not to put up his prized ornaments? Maybe explain that it is upsetting for the children?

[umsami]

Well, you made me feel better about my racist relatives.  At least, they're not that bad...yet.

 

:grouphug:

 

I have no idea if/how I'd handle that.  If it was anybody but my parents, I probably would cut off all contact.  

[JumpyTheFrog]

Could your husband speak to him about it? Ask him not to put up his prized ornaments? Maybe explain that it is upsetting for the children?

 

I think the kids are probably still unaware. FIL thankfully limits (well, for him) the comments when the kids are in the room. Although this trip he has referenced the gorillas by name in front of them, but neither kid is aware that the gorilla is named after a real person. They probably think it is a made up name, since FIL also decorates plastic dinosaurs with jewelry and decorates the house with other dollar store finds. (No, he doesn't have dementia. I think he is bored in retirement.)

 

I can try to get DH to say something, but he will probably view saying anything as pointless because he knows his dad doesn't change for people. (I guess accommodating my food intolerances is about the only thing.) Also, DH's view is that he grew up with his dad and didn't end up like him, so we don't need to worry as much about our kids picking it up since we live so far away. Finally, I think having grown up with his dad, DH doesn't realize just how heinous FIL's racism is compared to what I would consider "more average" racism.

 

For the last couple trips my strategy has just been to get up and leave the room when FIL gets going. (Doesn't work when we are in the car.) If he says something around the kids I will make sure to take the kids with me. I'm not sure if I've had to do this yet, but I suspect as my kids get older, FIL will begin making comments even when they are in the room.

[Farrar]

I didn't say it wasn't racist, but people can be unthinking racists; they pick stuff up from their environment. It is possible for people to be racist without malice. That doesn't mean the racism isn't real or harmful, but it doesn't necessarily come from a black evil pit in a person's heart.

 

Those people can learn.

 

The label "racist" like most labels can be used to dehumanize and other groups of people. If we use it that way, as a way of designating "those folks" as terrible, horrible, no-good, very bad human beings--we close all opportunity for productive dialogue with them.

 

If is only when we view people--ALL people--as fully human, with strengths and goodness along with weakness and prejudice--that we have a chance to maybe walk alongside them and lead them to a different way of thinking. Farrar was wondering what CAN we do to change racism; to help any person change their way of thinking, we have to first be able to see good or at least potential for good in that person.

 

If all we want to do is make ourselves feel good, condemnation works. In the context of a JAWM thread that is fine, and I joined right in. But if we actually want to tackle the question of how to bring about change, we have to move beyond condemnation. Telling someone "you're a bad person!" or making that the basis of our interactions with them has never lead to positive change.

 

Honestly, I feel very torn about this advice. I think it's often used as an excuse by white people to get out of facing racism. It's excusing racism because the intent isn't bad - which, who cares? Like, yes, it should mean that then you can engage over it and change people's minds, except that when you tell these people that people are hurt, they don't change. They typically dig in, which means that they can say what they want - even think what they want - about their intent, but it's just an excuse.

 

And so often we don't engage productively or seriously with them. We say, well, I tried, I told uncle that was bad, maybe I'll get him next year. But nothing changes. And we, as allies, allow them to get away with it by making excuses around their "intent." So, if someone was genuinely engaging, then, okay... but I think the reality is that we tell ourselves we've done this or we hold this up as our ideal, but in the moment of sitting at the Christmas dinner table, with kids swarming around and chaos and holiday weariness, when uncle tells that Michelle Obama is a gorilla joke, we just say, "not funny, uncle," and maybe tell our kids why it's wrong later, but don't really do that process of engaging.

 

Right now, calling out racism has become a politically charged thing in the greater culture - where racists are posting flyers saying "We have a right to exist!" and decrying the prejudice against them. This, on some level, feels like it's playing right into that narrative. And like it's coddling white fragility.

 

The other side of the coin is that, yeah, just walking away makes us feel smugly better but smug is hardly a good thing. And it's not changing anyone's mind either.

 

And we know that you can sometimes change someone's mind. It's just... ugh. Anyone hear that This American Life where the Australian woman went to the busy bar district and then had long conversations with all the guys who catcalled her and recorded them. She worked on one of these guys for THREE HOURS and in the end, he agreed not to slap women's asses anymore. Not that it had been wrong in the first place, not that he shouldn't catcall, not that it was really demeaning, just that maybe it could be taken the wrong way and he shouldn't actually slap. On the one hand, yea, she changed his mind. On the other hand, holy crap, look how long it took (she ended up meeting with him a second time), and he didn't even make it all the way to being a decent man.

[maize]

Honestly, I feel very torn about this advice. I think it's often used as an excuse by white people to get out of facing racism. It's excusing racism because the intent isn't bad - which, who cares? Like, yes, it should mean that then you can engage over it and change people's minds, except that when you tell these people that people are hurt, they don't change. They typically dig in, which means that they can say what they want - even think what they want - about their intent, but it's just an excuse.

 

And so often we don't engage productively or seriously with them. We say, well, I tried, I told uncle that was bad, maybe I'll get him next year. But nothing changes. And we, as allies, allow them to get away with it by making excuses around their "intent." So, if someone was genuinely engaging, then, okay... but I think the reality is that we tell ourselves we've done this or we hold this up as our ideal, but in the moment of sitting at the Christmas dinner table, with kids swarming around and chaos and holiday weariness, when uncle tells that Michelle Obama is a gorilla joke, we just say, "not funny, uncle," and maybe tell our kids why it's wrong later, but don't really do that process of engaging.

 

Right now, calling out racism has become a politically charged thing in the greater culture - where racists are posting flyers saying "We have a right to exist!" and decrying the prejudice against them. This, on some level, feels like it's playing right into that narrative. And like it's coddling white fragility.

 

The other side of the coin is that, yeah, just walking away makes us feel smugly better but smug is hardly a good thing. And it's not changing anyone's mind either.

 

And we know that you can sometimes change someone's mind. It's just... ugh. Anyone hear that This American Life where the Australian woman went to the busy bar district and then had long conversations with all the guys who catcalled her and recorded them. She worked on one of these guys for THREE HOURS and in the end, he agreed not to slap women's asses anymore. Not that it had been wrong in the first place, not that he shouldn't catcall, not that it was really demeaning, just that maybe it could be taken the wrong way and he shouldn't actually slap. On the one hand, yea, she changed his mind. On the other hand, holy crap, look how long it took (she ended up meeting with him a second time), and he didn't even make it all the way to being a decent man.

I did hear that show and it was not very encouraging. She made progress with the one guy, but so little!

 

It might take thousands of interactions like that, but I do believe that respectful dialogue makes a difference. Antagonism almost never does--people just become defensive. Will everyone have a change of heart? No. But I think that way there is a chance. I don't think that either ignoring the issue or condemning the people is helpful. People need to feel respected as human beings before they will listen at all.

 

Condemnation directed at behavior is different from condemnation directed at a person. I think there is a place for outright condemnation of behavior.

Edited December 23, 2016 by maize

[JumpyTheFrog]

Well, I might be largely off the hook for the rest of this trip. FIL's dad just had a heart attack and had to be moved to a hospital farther away. That means I probably won't have to see him much for the rest of this trip. That will give me until next summer to read about how people handle racist relatives so I can have a better idea of what to do.

[Laurie4b]

You know, I'd love to read more by white allies who deal with these issues in a better way. I feel like there are these two paths that people end up taking, neither of which feels satisfying. Either you cut those people out of your life and lose them. Which feels justified and, I dunno, lets you feel righteous and better than, which isn't so hot as emotions go, but doesn't change their minds and makes you lose family. Or you basically ignore them and pass the bean dip when they say this stuff or maybe say, "I disagree" to get yourself on record, but you don't engage. And then you're basically standing there enabling racism on some level.

 

I do think there's some middle path - engaging without being confrontational or nasty maybe, but it's really hard to figure out how to walk it. And whether it can be walked all the time and if it can't when to walk way. On the surface, it feels like people who name gorillas after black politicians might be walk away candidates. But... I don't know.

Yes, I took the 3rd path when I got married. Dh had already engaged them so it wasn't entirely new. We are dealing with the kind of racism that is of the "I treat everyone fairly" type but also feel free to make categorizations of ethnic groups in conversation, or use words that were not preferred by that group. (Not the really nasty stuff, just not the current term.)  I caused ripples and dh had already been "that kid" so the end result was the talk stopped when we were around.  

 

Now that some of the relatives are quite elderly and starting to lose filters or even some cognitive function, I tend to say less. It doesn't really process now and the loss of filters is kind of equal opportunity if you KWIM.   

 

Gorillas labeled as politicians would be something I would have to confront directly. You can confront creatively. It doesn't always have to be angry. But it's not something I would let pass. I would feel silence was condoning. 

[Jean in Newcastle]

i must be living in a bubble for over 50 years because I've never met people with attitudes like that in my family or outside of it.  (At least expressed so that I would know it.) 

 

My opinion is that kids pick up attitudes even if they are young and it seems to go over their heads and they don't comment on them.  Personally, I would have dh go to see his dad and would stay home with the kids.  And I'd try to get together with other family at other times  This would be a deal breaker for me because it goes to the heart of how we treat PEOPLE.  It isn't right to call any person of any race an animal. 

[JumpyTheFrog]

Personally, I would have dh go to see his dad and would stay home with the kids.  And I'd try to get together with other family at other times

 

This would be an approach I might consider if MIL, FIL, and BIL didn't all live together. (BIL has developmental disabilities and can't ever live on his own. DH and I will probably be his guardians some day.) MIL never makes racist comments, and I think she doesn't like what FIL says or does, but he never listens to her about anything, so I don't want to punish her by not visiting. And DH needs to continue to see his brother, who doesn't adjust to change well (part of his disabilities). This means it is much easier on his brother for us to visit than it would be for MIL and BIL to come visit us.

 

One thing is for sure, I don't ever want to allow FIL to live with us, even if he outlives MIL and needs assistance. If people lose their filters as they get older, I don't want to see it.