WWYD if your spouse wants to bicycle from Buffalo to Albany in December? Update post #185

[SparklyUnicorn]

So they are forcing cyclists to ride in the ditch? Again, the center to right half of a lane is one thing, but off on the shoulder is not. State law is requiring a vehicle to be operated off a legal road surface?

 

I must have misunderstood you. 

[Guest]

Legally, bikes have as much right to be in the middle of the road when warranted (such as snow accumulation in the bike lane) as cars do. Realistically, cars aren't looking out for them in the middle winter, and common sense would dictate that good safety precautions are taken by the person more likely to be killed should an accident occur.

 

People bike here all year round, even on hilly rural roads. However, there is a huge difference between choosing a day with favourable conditions (dry road, good visibility, in the middle of the day when light is least compromised, and so on) and being at the mercy of the conditions because of some personal quest.

 

To call this idea unwise is being kind.

Thank you. This drives me up the wall - and make ME less safe as a cyclist - when vehicular operators assume because they are bigger and faster they have the right of way on the road surface and I must be doing something illegal or stupid by using it too. Every municipality I've checked when looking up cycling laws is a lot more generous on road use than what I've assumed, and what the average driver seems to operate under. Edited December 20, 2016 by Arctic Mama

[SparklyUnicorn]

Although really if we are talking about this situation, I think this isn't the biggest concern.  She knows how to ride a bike in traffic and on the road.  The problem is should she camp out on private property in the dead of winter on a long solitary bike adventure?

 

No...tell her the hive said no...  We forbid it....  :laugh:

[frogger]

I wish it was as difficult to get a license as a CDL. That would solve a lot of problems.  I shoot guns but I don't consider it other people's problem to stay safe around me. It is my responsibility.  If I talked like most motorists I would simply shoot where ever and tell people to stay away from the front of my gun. 

 

Nobody is safe with American drivers. Not animals, children, motorcyclists, other drivers, and pity the person whose car breaks down on the side of the road. 

 

But I suppose I shouldn't detract from the main point of the thread. Obviously, the OP didn't want her spouse to take this particular trip because she felt it was dangerous and there are certainly roads that aren't safe to do just for fun and yes there are designated spaces for speed. Please cyclists stay off the freeway but the American motorist is a creature that drives me insane though I am one. 

 

I'm sorry for those who spend their whole lives in fear. I think that would be depressing. I can't but feel sorry for you. 

[Guest]

I'm not worried about her being forced into some sort of shelter, but I am worried about her being threatened with arrest for trespassing and forced to move on in the dark (best case senario) or shot (worst case) by suspicious land owner. This is upstate NY, there are a lot of guns about and people know how to use them. My friend's dad regularly patrolled his land with a gun. It's pretty darn common. And they are already used to pot growers trying to sneak onto isolated plots of land to set up little patches of pot amidst the corn..or worse. If she is camping by the side of the road she will be assumed to be homeless or up to no good. It's going to be up to her to defuse the situation every time. If she takes it away from the road and deeper into the field or woods it will be even worse because then land owners or law enforcement will be even more convinced she is trying to hide.

 

You can't just trespass and expect people to be cool with it. It's a crime and will be treated as such.

 

How about she spend this winter getting ready to try this next winter. Why doesn't she start with taking some long rides, see what it's like to ride 100-150 miles in a day. Again, the experienced riders I know are tossing those century rides off like nothing. They do it every weekend. She could ride somewhere, spend the night in a hotel and ride 100 - 150 miles back. She could try that a few times and get to learn what it's like and what she needs.

She does need to find a better sleeping plan - common around here are cyclists plotting their trek by legal camping spaces or paid campgrounds. Even as spread out as Alaska is there are usually one or two legal spots every ten miles, and that is probably a safer compromise for her. Trespassing is not okay but there are other options that are fairly inexpensive, especially for a night or two at a time.

 

The mental health thing worries me and I'd be strongly encouraging her to do a smaller test run in warmer weather first too, but it's not really a cycling or winter camping issue so much as her particular self and this being a bad idea, from what I'm hearing here. There are ways to do it safely but crashing randomly in parks or private property isn't it.

[justasque]

I think I would make a list of concerns, and then gently bring them up over the next few days/weeks.  "Have you thought about what kind of tent you'll need?"  "Many people have found that cell coverage can be spotty in rural areas.  I wonder if that's the case along your route?"  And so on.  

Thoughts:

--I have had a phone charger that was fully charged at the start of my trip simply not work when I went to use it.  It may have been that the button got accidentally pushed in my bag, or an issue with the cord, or something else.  So my rule is two chargers when phone coverage is critical.  She might also consider a cheap flip-phone as a backup; they tend to keep battery power for longer.

--I have driven in upstate NY in a blizzard.  On the major highway (81/90), the snow came so fast that the plows couldn't keep up, and the only option was to drive in the tire tracks of the vehicle ahead of you.  Anything else and I would start sliding.  There was no way to pull over, because the snow was piled high outside of the one narrow lane created by the tire tracks.  Visibility was almost non-existent, and my wipers couldn't keep up with removing the snow.  I just kept my eyes on the tracks ahead of me as best I could.  I couldn't stop, or the person behind me would run into me.  I couldn't pass, as there was no passing lane (on what was normally a two or three lane road).  There would be absolutely no way someone on a bike could have been safe on that road, and nowhere for them to escape the massive amount of snow.  That blizzard came up *fast*, and was worse than had been predicted.  I cannot imagine how bad the side roads must have been; if the highway was that bad, the local roads must have been impassable.

--I have also driven on ice-covered highway, on a day where there were several 50-car pile-ups.  It was a thin layer of ice, but enough that maintaining control of the car was extremely challenging.  Once the car started to slide, there was no way to stop it.  Once someone else's car started to slide towards me, there was no way to maneuver to avoid it.  The ice covered the entire road; the side of the road was no safer than anywhere else.  Exits were closed, because the ramps were too slippery.  You couldn't stop - you'd get hit.  You just had to keep driving, as slow as possible but still moving forward.  It was terrifying. 

--In bad weather, like the blizzard and the ice incident above, there is no way emergency vehicles could get to a lone biker.  In both of the cases above, exits were closed, roads were literally impassable, and people in normally-snow-worthy vehicles spent hours stuck somewhere unable to keep going, or moving slowly in very treacherous conditions because to stop would have been worse.

Edited December 20, 2016 by justasque

[frogger]

I do find the Lower 48 very different Arctic Mama. We seldom can apply our rules down there. Do you know there are places where it is illegal to live without running water? Crazy, right?  It is a different world and they have way more private property and way less park and stuff so I can see sleeping as a major concern. 

[Guest]

I do find the Lower 48 very different Arctic Mama. We seldom can apply our rules down there. Do you know there are places where it is illegal to live without running water? Crazy, right? It is a different world and they have way more private property and way less park and stuff so I can see sleeping as a major concern.

I know, I didn't spend my whole life in state - thing is, the cycling clubs do longer jaunts all the time and the routes I've looked at do indeed have sleeping options for fairly minimal cost. You have to hunt for them, but public and private campgrounds are absolutely smattered throughout New England. Some are closed seasonally but she should really be looking into planning her route that way instead of planning to trespass. It's a lot safer and also a good compromise for her spouse :)

 

She can start building with her municipal and state park lands and add in private/paid sites as needed, but that really should be the core of her planning her first longer trip and if it's presented to her that way I'm thinking she might be willing to compromise since it isn't a 'no, you're nuts'.

 

Here is a rudimentary starting point:

https://freecampsites.net/#!New+York&query=region

 

Depends on her route, but I'm seeing a fair bit of state park land smattered along the trek as well, and oftentimes one night backpacking is legal on there too. New York has pretty flexible primitive camping laws if you're in the right designated area.

Edited December 20, 2016 by Arctic Mama

[frogger]

Nm, you covered it.

Edited December 20, 2016 by frogger

[justasque]

Having Google Mapped it, it does seem like the secondary road is a pretty straight route, that goes through a lot of little towns.  If, and only if, the weather is predicted to be decent, it could be a good ride for someone who is into that kind of thing.  So I think I would focus on the route planning, with an eye towards finding safe spaces to spend the night.  I would also focus on finding safe shelter in case of bad weather - she should pre-plan where to head for and hole up ahead of time, having options every, what, five miles or so?

If the weather is bad, expecting you and the kids to venture out as rescue squad is unrealistic - if it's not good for her, it's not good for you to be out in either.  She needs "shelter in place" plans all along the route, and by "in place" I mean in an actual building she has permission to occupy.

[Jane in NC]

I have found this conversation to be very interesting.  Not that I have anything to contribute with my minimal knowledge of winter biking.  But I can say that one year ago I did not know much about winter hiking.  And then my son decided to start hiking the Appalachian Trail at the end of February from the Springer Mountain terminus in GA. He walked and slept in snow.  His phone was off most of the time since there was rarely a signal along much of the Southern stretch unless he was on the balds or off the trail for resupply.  In the beginning, there were days when he saw no one.

 

Off course, he is a hale and hearty kid.  I reminded myself that he descends from people who walked long distances.  O Pioneers!  But obviously the thing that is needed is the proper attire and equipment. 

 

My son has moved to a place in Colorado in part because of the year round bike culture.  Of course they have bike lanes there.  I'll have to ask if they are plowed.  Perhaps the additional sun helps.

 

People who do extreme things tend to be a little different.  Says the mother who wondered if her kid wanted an ice ax for hiking as a Christmas gift.  But I agree that plans for escape and safety are absolutely needed with these sorts of undertakings.

[Loesje22000]

And, nope. She just came downstairs (she's working from home today) and told me she considered last night to be a success. She spent 6 hours out there, and she's blaming the still feeling cold at 9 on being ill (I've had a cold for a few days now, so yeah, she might have a cold too - or, she might just be cold because she slept outside :banghead: ).

I feel sorry for you, but can not offer any useful help / inside information.

I made an agreement with DH though, that he saves some activities until dd is independent from us / is a college student. Because of that agreement, I vetoed one of his plans in the past.

 

I'm not sure your spouse is open to that type of agreements (at the moment)

[luuknam]

Having Google Mapped it, it does seem like the secondary road is a pretty straight route, that goes through a lot of little towns.  If, and only if, the weather is predicted to be decent, it could be a good ride for someone who is into that kind of thing.  So I think I would focus on the route planning, with an eye towards finding safe spaces to spend the night.  I would also focus on finding safe shelter in case of bad weather - she should pre-plan where to head for and hole up ahead of time, having options every, what, five miles or so?

 

If the weather is bad, expecting you and the kids to venture out as rescue squad is unrealistic - if it's not good for her, it's not good for you to be out in either.  She needs "shelter in place" plans all along the route, and by "in place" I mean in an actual building she has permission to occupy.

 

 

Here is a rudimentary starting point:

https://freecampsites.net/#!New+York&query=region

 

That yielded a total of one option between here and Syracuse (well, technically 3, but one says no tent camping, and the other allegedly is permanently closed). I clicked on the remaining one, which is a NY wildlife management area, and it seems like it's possible, and then clicked on other NY wildlife areas, but they generally specifically don't allow camping - the one in Wyoming county is the only one between here and Syracuse that allows it (in case anyone is wondering why I keep mentioning Syracuse, it's because I'm not even going to bother looking further than that until I find a plausible path to Syracuse). I then looked at state parks, and I'm having trouble understanding the rules - they say that generally it's allowed, if you're more than 150 feet from water, tracks, and roads, but then the specific parks I look at say that camping is from mid-May through mid-October, so I'm unclear on that. And I'm still not excited about her camping alone in the snow somewhere, especially if it's 150 ft from roads and tracks, aka harder to be found if something goes wrong (I know, it's no worse than her plan).

[luuknam]

Oh, I meant to reply to the other post too - something every 5 miles would be at least 60 spots - I agree that it's a good idea, I just don't see it happening unless I do it myself.

 

Driving out in adverse weather depends on what the adverse weather is. If it's unexpectedly colder than forecast, that's not an issue in the car. But yeah, I'm not driving into a blizzard.

[maize]

I have found this conversation to be very interesting. Not that I have anything to contribute with my minimal knowledge of winter biking. But I can say that one year ago I did not know much about winter hiking. And then my son decided to start hiking the Appalachian Trail at the end of February from the Springer Mountain terminus in GA. He walked and slept in snow. His phone was off most of the time since there was rarely a signal along much of the Southern stretch unless he was on the balds or off the trail for resupply. In the beginning, there were days when he saw no one.

 

Off course, he is a hale and hearty kid. I reminded myself that he descends from people who walked long distances. O Pioneers! But obviously the thing that is needed is the proper attire and equipment.

 

My son has moved to a place in Colorado in part because of the year round bike culture. Of course they have bike lanes there. I'll have to ask if they are plowed. Perhaps the additional sun helps.

 

People who do extreme things tend to be a little different. Says the mother who wondered if her kid wanted an ice ax for hiking as a Christmas gift. But I agree that plans for escape and safety are absolutely needed with these sorts of undertakings.

I think that doing risky stuff as a single person is very, very different from doing risky stuff when you have a spouse and young children. Your life is not exclusively yours when you have a family to consider.

 

I was much more willing to take risks when I was single without children.

 

(and I also do not see starting an Appalachian trail walk in GA in Feb as comparable to biking across New York in January)

[MedicMom]

That yielded a total of one option between here and Syracuse (well, technically 3, but one says no tent camping, and the other allegedly is permanently closed). I clicked on the remaining one, which is a NY wildlife management area, and it seems like it's possible, and then clicked on other NY wildlife areas, but they generally specifically don't allow camping - the one in Wyoming county is the only one between here and Syracuse that allows it (in case anyone is wondering why I keep mentioning Syracuse, it's because I'm not even going to bother looking further than that until I find a plausible path to Syracuse). I then looked at state parks, and I'm having trouble understanding the rules - they say that generally it's allowed, if you're more than 150 feet from water, tracks, and roads, but then the specific parks I look at say that camping is from mid-May through mid-October, so I'm unclear on that. And I'm still not excited about her camping alone in the snow somewhere, especially if it's 150 ft from roads and tracks, aka harder to be found if something goes wrong (I know, it's no worse than her plan).

We camp in the state parks. I don't know of any that allow winter camping, even primitive camping. I know all the ones really local to me are completely shut down right now, not plowed or de-iced. The one wild land area local to me listed on that website would be impossible to camp at right now. It's on dirt roads way out of town, and is snow and ice filled. I know people snowmobile and cross country ski in the winter, but tent camping there would be foolish right now.

Edited December 21, 2016 by MedicMom

[CadenceSophia]

The trip wouldn't really worry me too much until the mental health aspect is factored in. Then I agree with everyone else. DH took a week long hunting trip this year outside of cell coverage. He and his buddy sent me messages with gps based maps of location 2x/day with a Spot. It was really awesome, both knowing they could access emergency services if needed and just because I am a worrier :)

 

If you are not familiar with Central NY, does that mean this trip is somewhat far from your home? In that case it seems rather random. I am assuming there are no maintained hiking trails to go on? She has a super sturdy winter bike with the really fat spiked tires right?

[Lucy the Valiant]

Does she have gear? Does she have experience using it?

[SeaConquest]

Speaking as someone with Bipolar, I would call her doctor and let him/her know what is happening immediately. Sleep deprivation is my primary trigger (which was fabulous for my mental health when I was working 100 hours per week as an investment banker), and my manic phases often manifested as feelings of invincibility/grandiosity, in excessive and unrealistic planning/goal setting, and ultimately biting off far more than I could chew, to my detriment (fueling the inevitable depression and feelings of worthlessness/failure that followed). I would take up jogging, and then start planning my next Olympic distance triathlon, ending up with a stress fracture and a near-drowning incident in the process. My guess is that she needs a med adjustment -- likely bumping up her mood stabilizer and/or lowering an antidepressant. Either way, her pdoc needs to be made aware of what is happening. 

Edited December 21, 2016 by SeaConquest

[Pam in CT]

To the point of Jane and the Arctic ladies, folks who know what they're doing can do all sorts of things.  Just doesn't sound yet like she's really worked through all of what she's taking on.

 

 

That yielded a total of one option between here and Syracuse (well, technically 3, but one says no tent camping, and the other allegedly is permanently closed). I clicked on the remaining one, which is a NY wildlife management area, and it seems like it's possible, and then clicked on other NY wildlife areas, but they generally specifically don't allow camping - the one in Wyoming county is the only one between here and Syracuse that allows it (in case anyone is wondering why I keep mentioning Syracuse, it's because I'm not even going to bother looking further than that until I find a plausible path to Syracuse). I then looked at state parks, and I'm having trouble understanding the rules - they say that generally it's allowed, if you're more than 150 feet from water, tracks, and roads, but then the specific parks I look at say that camping is from mid-May through mid-October, so I'm unclear on that. And I'm still not excited about her camping alone in the snow somewhere, especially if it's 150 ft from roads and tracks, aka harder to be found if something goes wrong (I know, it's no worse than her plan).

 

 

Thing is, the Erie Canal route is brilliant for biking the Albany to Buffalo route... in good weather.  Even *I* could do it (and I am a totally not-serious biker)... in good weather.  It's totally flat ('cuz, canals are like that, lol), it's protected, it's groomed, there are places to stop and eat and re-charge, there are places to shower, there are places to camp.  In.good.weather.

 

Maybe she could head south and find something like that in, I dunno, Virginia?  And do Albany-Buffalo in its proper season?  What's so magic about Albany-Buffalo?

[Mrs_JWM]

That yielded a total of one option between here and Syracuse (well, technically 3, but one says no tent camping, and the other allegedly is permanently closed). I clicked on the remaining one, which is a NY wildlife management area, and it seems like it's possible, and then clicked on other NY wildlife areas, but they generally specifically don't allow camping - the one in Wyoming county is the only one between here and Syracuse that allows it (in case anyone is wondering why I keep mentioning Syracuse, it's because I'm not even going to bother looking further than that until I find a plausible path to Syracuse). I then looked at state parks, and I'm having trouble understanding the rules - they say that generally it's allowed, if you're more than 150 feet from water, tracks, and roads, but then the specific parks I look at say that camping is from mid-May through mid-October, so I'm unclear on that. And I'm still not excited about her camping alone in the snow somewhere, especially if it's 150 ft from roads and tracks, aka harder to be found if something goes wrong (I know, it's no worse than her plan).

Native Central NY'er here who plans to do the Erie Canal bike ride across the state - and has done portions as full-day trips. I would not attempt this in the winter. It's not safe. The trail isn't completed, so there are areas where you are on surface roads - including through my beautiful city of Syracuse, snowiest city in the country where our streets are plowed, but snow piles up everywhere and freezes rock-solid. The trail is used for snowmobiling in some areas, but not all. This morning, it was 9°F outside. Not warm. Once it warms up to the 30s or so, it starts to snow. Sometimes a lot...

 

As far as camping at state parks, camping is not allowed after October unless it says camping is allowed. The Erie Canal trail passes very close to Green Lakes State Park, but no one is allowed to camp there in the winter. DEC campgrounds may has different rules because they are more primitive.

 

I wish you luck. This is a very difficult situation.

Edited December 21, 2016 by Mrs_JWM

[luuknam]

Maybe she could head south and find something like that in, I dunno, Virginia?  And do Albany-Buffalo in its proper season?  What's so magic about Albany-Buffalo?

 

I'm a little bit at a loss as far as that is concerned as well. I can explain the upside of Buffalo (we're here), and I guess the upside of Albany is that you can take a train from there to here. Other than that, only buying a train ticket from Albany to Buffalo is cheaper than from here to VA and then VA to here, and the VA thing would also take more time because then you've got extra travel time. But, other than the 'convenience' factor of Albany, there's afaik nothing about it that's magical. She doesn't even plan to do anything in Albany other than get on a train back.

Edited December 21, 2016 by luuknam

[Lanny]

I haven't read all of the posts in this thread, I've read a few of them, but from the title of the thread, and from the posts that I have read, I suggest contacting a competent and very experienced Psychologist or Psychiatrist.  It might be necessary, for the safety and protection of the spouse, for temporary hospitalization. 

[luuknam]

I haven't read all of the posts in this thread, I've read a few of them, but from the title of the thread, and from the posts that I have read, I suggest contacting a competent and very experienced Psychologist or Psychiatrist.  It might be necessary, for the safety and protection of the spouse, for temporary hospitalization. 

 

So, I had a talk with my psychologist last night, and she agreed that this probably isn't quite at the level of involuntary hospitalization (it's not that easy to hospitalize someone against their will, and hypomanic people usually aren't about to agree to voluntary hospitalization). She did give me the number of Crisis Services though, which could call her or even pay us a home visit (though depending on staffing and how urgent it seems, not necessarily on the same day - of course, if there's an immediate danger there's 911). She also suggested calling my wife's pdoc's office, if I can figure out where that is, but, concretely speaking, the pdoc would realistically either call my wife or call Crisis Services, but be just as unable to actually do something about it.

 

It all hinges on whether she "has a mental illness which is likely to result in serious harm to self or others and for which immediate observation, care and treatment in a psychiatric center is appropriate."* Which, basically, is a judgment call about a grey area. I don't know how to calculate the likelihood of this resulting in serious harm to herself. It think it's possible, I think the odds are too high for me to be cool with it, but is it 'likely'? Depends on how one defines 'likely'. I know some researchers have studied what people tend to think those kinds of words mean, but I can't find that right now, but, say, in medicine, it means a greater than 50% chance**, which, I don't know that it reaches that... but I don't want this to happen if there's, say, a 10% chance of serious harm, or even if it's a 1% chance of serious harm - if you regularly do things with a 1% chance of serious harm you're going to hit some serious harm relatively quickly.

 

* https://www.omh.ny.gov/omhweb/patientrights/inpatient_rts.htm#mh_law_admissions

 

** https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Words_of_estimative_probability#Medicine

[Granny_Weatherwax]

Mental illness issues set aside, I would:

 

1- want a detailed (feasible) itinerary

2- want a detailed expense sheet

3- want a list of required, weather appropriate equipment (4-season tent, -40 degree sleeping bag, fleece sleeping bag liner, sleeping pad, cold weather clothes, food rations, stove, first aid kit, flashing lights for the bike, an orange safety flag for the bike, etc)

4- want a written emergency plan with phone numbers for local contacts (tied in with itinerary)

5- conduct a shakedown with everything packed on the bike

6- demand the completely packed bike be ridden for a minimum of 10 miles in the weather conditions that are to be expected. This is non-negotiable. Ability, preferably expertise (due to the conditions), is a must, especially since this is a solo trip.

 

It's easy to ride a bike in all sorts of conditions. It's a different thing to ride a loaded bike, especially one packed with heavy winter gear. It throws off the balance and control. The lights must be seen when the bike is loaded.

 

It's also easy to camp in all sorts of conditions. When you are biking your equipment in, it's much different. There are logistics that need to be considered that aren't a part of the equation when camping while hiking,backpacking, or snowshoeing (either with or without a sled).

 

There are all sorts of tricks she can use to stay warm at night or to be comfortable: a Nalgene filled with hot water and tucked in the sleeping bag; eating a midnight snack to provide extra calories; sleeping on extra clothes to keep them warm and pliable for the next day; tucking your shoes into the footbox of the sleeping bag to keep them from freezing.

 

--

I'm glad she spent some time sleeping outside. I would have her to do it multiple nights in a row, esp. if she hasn't had much recent experience in sub-zero camping. Tents can be difficult to set up while wearing gloves or when fingers are freezing. I would also have her practice cooking outside. What type of stove is she carrying? Has she practiced cooking on it in below freezing temps? Backpacking stoves can be tricky in cold weather. This is important to know because if she is planning on camping, even for one night, she needs to be able to heat water for her bedtime Nalgene or to prepare emergency rations to bring her core temp up if she is too cold.

 

What type of food is she planning on taking? Even with planned town stops or hotel stays, she's going to need a variety of foods. Some are easier to prepare on the trail in colder temps than others. Again, this goes back to a well-planned itinerary.

 

The advice seems endless. I wish you both the best of luck as you come to a consensus about this endeavor.

 

Edited December 21, 2016 by Scoutermom

[AddlepatedMonkeyMama]

This doesn't address your concerns about her mental health, but here's a good resource for safety information and state laws from the New York Bicycling Coalition. The director of education, Ken Crandall, is a high school friend of mine, and I'm sure he would be happy to answer your (or your wife's) questions about a Buffalo-to-Albany winter ride. You can send a message through the NYBC contact page or PM me and I can get you Ken's email address.

[Granny_Weatherwax]

Aside: Now that I've been looking up the Erie Canal Trail, I have wanderlust. This trail has been added to my bucket list. At 365 miles, this is doable during a short summer break. There's even a kayking option. Yup, (mental) wheels are turning now.

Edited December 21, 2016 by Scoutermom

[SeaConquest]

So, I had a talk with my psychologist last night, and she agreed that this probably isn't quite at the level of involuntary hospitalization (it's not that easy to hospitalize someone against their will, and hypomanic people usually aren't about to agree to voluntary hospitalization). She did give me the number of Crisis Services though, which could call her or even pay us a home visit (though depending on staffing and how urgent it seems, not necessarily on the same day - of course, if there's an immediate danger there's 911). She also suggested calling my wife's pdoc's office, if I can figure out where that is, but, concretely speaking, the pdoc would realistically either call my wife or call Crisis Services, but be just as unable to actually do something about it.

 

It all hinges on whether she "has a mental illness which is likely to result in serious harm to self or others and for which immediate observation, care and treatment in a psychiatric center is appropriate."* Which, basically, is a judgment call about a grey area. I don't know how to calculate the likelihood of this resulting in serious harm to herself. It think it's possible, I think the odds are too high for me to be cool with it, but is it 'likely'? Depends on how one defines 'likely'. I know some researchers have studied what people tend to think those kinds of words mean, but I can't find that right now, but, say, in medicine, it means a greater than 50% chance**, which, I don't know that it reaches that... but I don't want this to happen if there's, say, a 10% chance of serious harm, or even if it's a 1% chance of serious harm - if you regularly do things with a 1% chance of serious harm you're going to hit some serious harm relatively quickly.

 

* https://www.omh.ny.gov/omhweb/patientrights/inpatient_rts.htm#mh_law_admissions

 

** https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Words_of_estimative_probability#Medicine

It doesn't sound like an involuntary hold is necessary at this time, but a med adjustment likely is. Please call her pdoc before things escalate. Edited December 21, 2016 by SeaConquest

[Tap]

Since it sounds like you aren't going to talk her out of it, I guess I would start hyper-planning with her.  Plan every scenario you can think of. Take the advice of the experienced bikers/outdoors people here on the board.  Contact bicycling organizations in the area (may also be great for emergency contacts in the areas she will be visiting).  I personally would add a GPS that is designed for winter hiking, with a locator on it.  So, if you haven't heard from her at her designated check in time, you have an idea where to start looking.  One of the biggest concerns I have had reading this thread over the past few days, and a recent poster brought it up, is riding with the full pack on, in the appropriate weather conditions. 

 

There are Always cyclists (and runners, backpackers etc) out in our area.  My son cycled back and forth to work by choice, sometimes in snow/ice, for 2 years. It isn't a foreign idea to me, but the length of time and lack of intense training, is very concerning.   I live in the PNW. There are many homeless in our area that live outdoors with minimal equipment...but even they are seasoned they know how to survive in the elements.  My concern is that she is lacking the experience of either people who have BTDT, or her own experiences. 

 

 

Maybe if it is a mania/hypomania issue, then focusing so much energy on it, will burn it out.  In that case, I would have a back up plan to shift gears to. Like....if all of our planning gets blocked by a blizzard or injury before your travel date, then lets agree ahead of time that we will put it on the books for next year instead or change the plan to xyz (warmer destination).  If the hyper planning doesn't dissuade her and she heads off, then she (and you) are as prepared as possible.   

 

Best wishes and positive thoughts for all of you. A prayer for wisdom, mental/physical safety... and a protected and guided journey.

 

Edited December 21, 2016 by Tap

[luuknam]

First off, apologies for writing January when I really meant "end of December". I'm probably a little paranoid, but I just didn't think it was a brilliant idea to advertise the exact dates she'd be doing this, including the probable trespassing, etc.

 

She made it to Utica, and got on the train back home last night (train had 70 min delay, so she got here after midnight). So, I've been torn between killing her and celebrating our 12th wedding anniversary, which is today. Actually, I'm mostly just glad it's over. The last couple of nights she did have a couple of inches of snow fall on her while she was asleep in her bivy sack, but mostly the weather was fairly decent (no sudden unexpected bad weather).

 

ETA: Oh, and she left last Saturday while I was in the shower. She did say bye, but when I got out of the shower the kids were on BrainPOP, and the thing I heard as I walked out of the bathroom was "is called brain dead". They were watching a video about death. That was not funny (though I think it was random as far as they were concerned).

Edited December 30, 2016 by luuknam

[maize]

Thanks for the update, glad all is well :)

[Zuzu822]

I'm glad she made it home safe! Just in time...Syracuse, Utica, and surrounding areas were hit last night and today with a foot of lake effect. The wind has been terrible across the fields too. What an adventure! 

[Granny_Weatherwax]

I'm glad she rose to the challenge and I'm glad you made it through.

Now you can plan an adventure together.

[SparklyUnicorn]

First off, apologies for writing January when I really meant "end of December". I'm probably a little paranoid, but I just didn't think it was a brilliant idea to advertise the exact dates she'd be doing this, including the probable trespassing, etc.

 

She made it to Utica, and got on the train back home last night (train had 70 min delay, so she got here after midnight). So, I've been torn between killing her and celebrating our 12th wedding anniversary, which is today. Actually, I'm mostly just glad it's over. The last couple of nights she did have a couple of inches of snow fall on her while she was asleep in her bivy sack, but mostly the weather was fairly decent (no sudden unexpected bad weather).

 

ETA: Oh, and she left last Saturday while I was in the shower. She did say bye, but when I got out of the shower the kids were on BrainPOP, and the thing I heard as I walked out of the bathroom was "is called brain dead". They were watching a video about death. That was not funny (though I think it was random as far as they were concerned).

 

glad she is ok and happy anniversary!

[Lang Syne Boardie]

Good grief. LOL Glad it's all over, and glad we didn't know the right dates or else everyone would have been sitting on this thread the whole time, fretting with you!! Happy Anniversary.

[frogger]

Celebrate. Life is too short to waste on being angry over something finished.

Edited December 30, 2016 by frogger

[Annie G]

Glad she's safely home. And Happy Anniversary!

[Heatherwith4]

I'm glad she made it, and Happy Anniversary!

[Spryte]

Happy anniversary! Celebrate!

[Guest]

Happy 12th anniversary! Hopefully she either got it out of her system or can engage in more training and planning for any future excursions and not give you a heart attack :)

[wintermom]

What a way to "celebrate" a wedding anniversary. I'd be so fuming mad I don't think I'd be able to talk to this person for a long time. That is not fair to a family. Way too self-absorbed.

[KungFuPanda]

Friggin marriage. Why can't it be as boring and predictable as single people think it is?

[Mrs_JWM]

What a way to "celebrate" a wedding anniversary. I'd be so fuming mad I don't think I'd be able to talk to this person for a long time. That is not fair to a family. Way too self-absorbed.

Unfortunately, mental illnesses are not typically concerned with fairness. [emoji17]

 

I'm glad she made it home ahead of the storm - which hasn't lived up to its predictions here in Syracuse, but still!

 

Sent from my XT1049 using Tapatalk

[luuknam]

Friggin marriage. Why can't it be as boring and predictable as single people think it is?

 

Whenever someone says something about something being interesting, I think of that ancient Chinese* curse: "May you live in interesting times.".

 

*Afaik, this is not actually an ancient Chinese curse, it's just said to be. Same difference though.

[wintermom]

Unfortunately, mental illnesses are not typically concerned with fairness. [emoji17]

 

 

No illness is "fair."  I think the spouse can still be mad and blow off some steam.