How would you handle this....separate households...--post deleted by OP---

[City Mouse]

Based on your update that P2 is your only source of respite care, I would continue to send her there as long as you feel that she is physically safe (he won't escalate to abuse). Help her pack a bag of things to do while she is there. however, I would make sure she knows that Christmas is not canceled at home.

[J-rap]

Something to keep in mind is that it sounds like P2 wasn't intentionally trying to make a thoughtful parenting decision that was in dd's best interest.  Rather, he had an extreme reaction to a behavior that overwhelmed and frustrated/angered him, and now he's just sticking with that reaction.  That's not healthy parenting.  I understand that it must be extremely difficult to parent a child with complex problems, but that doesn't make the way he reacted okay.  I think he should be taking courses or therapy to learn how to handle those situations;  but then he would need to be self-motivated enough to want to do that.

 

I think any visits should be short with P1 there too, and that P1 should be looking for other respite care.   :grouphug:

 

 

[chiguirre]

In your shoes, OP, I'd send her to P2 every weekend and let them figure it out. I've used less than stellar babysitters because I had to so I completely understand the necessity of the situation. I've pulled over and thrown away toys because Geezle was throwing them at me while I was driving. This actually worked. It took about 30 conversations about why evil mommy threw his toys away in the supermarket parking lot, but he did eventually get it and agree that that was very dangerous. P2 probably can't do this, but you never know. Maybe they'll replay the whole incident often enough that they'll both understand the antecedent-behavior-consequence chain.

 

 

The P2 situation's not great, but it's better than exiling your older dd every weekend. The only reason I would not send younger dd is if I thought she might attack P2 and injure him or he might injure her trying to restrain her. If this hasn't happened with the pool or the Christmas present incidents, I think you're okay sending her.

 

:grouphug: 

[maize]

In your shoes, OP, I'd send her to P2 every weekend and let them figure it out. I've used less than stellar babysitters because I had to so I completely understand the necessity of the situation. I've pulled over and thrown away toys because Geezle was throwing them at me while I was driving. This actually worked. It took about 30 conversations about why evil mommy threw his toys away in the supermarket parking lot, but he did eventually get it and agree that that was very dangerous. P2 probably can't do this, but you never know. Maybe they'll replay the whole incident often enough that they'll both understand the antecedent-behavior-consequence chain.

 

 

The P2 situation's not great, but it's better than exiling your older dd every weekend. The only reason I would not send younger dd is if I thought she might attack P2 and injure him or he might injure her trying to restrain her. If this hasn't happened with the pool or the Christmas present incidents, I think you're okay sending her.

 

:grouphug:

 

I don't think that taking away Christmas because a child is having a meltdown is comparable to throwing away a toy that was thrown at the driver in a car. In the second situation there is a natural and clear connection between the behavior and the consequence; in the first there is not. Taking away Christmas and dragging a child to the store to return gifts is egregiously punitive and demonstrates nothing other than the adult's intent to hurt the child.

 

I understand the need for respite, I wonder though what the net impact on the child is going to be of being at the mercy of an adult who behaves so immaturely. If the overall relationship between the two is fairly positive then yes I could see having the child continue to spend time there as making the best of a bad situation.

[sassenach]

Based on your update that P2 is your only source of respite care, I would continue to send her there as long as you feel that she is physically safe (he won't escalate to abuse). Help her pack a bag of things to do while she is there. however, I would make sure she knows that Christmas is not canceled at home.

Ditto this. 

 

It is far from an ideal situation, but you don't really have any great options. I'd probably have a gentle word with him to try to course correct his parenting decisions. 

[gardenmom5]

I think it would be even sadder if she concluded she deserves to be treated poorly.

 

Not a great thing to take into the teen years for a 10-year-old girl.

 

I think that is not a definite thing at all, but it is just as likely as her "learning a lesson" or thinking her dad is doing something that would be characterized as acting like a jerk.

 

That would almost be a good outcome compared to her learning this is how she should be treated.

 

this is what would concern me most. studies show  male father figures in a girl's life predict the relationships she'll have with men at least as a teen, if not also as an adult.  father who treats a daughter poorly is likely to have a daughter who will be more likely to hang with guys who treat her poorly.  it's what she knows.

if would be better for her to get the message from adults she loves and trusts - he was over the line, and should not have treated her that way.

 

It seems fairly common for the non-custodial parent not to acknowledge special needs (a friend's ex insisted on taking their autistic son shooting without earmuffs etc, another guy smoked heavily around their asthmatic son and sent him home sick every Sunday etc). I would require him to attend some sort of training/education in parenting special needs children and limit it to short visits. You may find it easier to find respite for the 18 year old.

 

my brother refused to acknowledge my mother's schizophrenia - and she was LIVING with him.   she ended up out of rx, and absolutely loosing her marbles.  it did blow up in his face though . . . .

and he was obsessive about his dd's health issues to the point my observation was he was going to create a neurotic mess.

 

Even with your update I wouldn't make her go to P2's house. I understand the rest of your family needs respite care, especially your older dd but P2 is not just making normal parenting mistakes and learning from them. He took away Christmas, returned gifts in front of her, and took her stuff to Goodwill. That is emotionally abusive and unless he's ready to realize why that is abusive and bend over backwards to learn how to parent he is not a healthy option for her.

 

Is there any other way to get respite care twice a week but with a qualified person

 

I'm another one on the board, if I was close enough would help with respite.

 

my concern is the potential very long term damage from this.  he didn't just react in the moment (understandable and human) - he continued down that path even when things had calmed down. 

depending upon how OP handles this, it can eventually affect the child's ability to trust her too.

[FaithManor]

Can you check with community mental healtth to see if respite is available for you? Some states do have this...so many hours per month with a trained worker or therapeutic respite care foster family.

 

Dd18's health and welfare does deserve just as much care and concern as dd10. So I can understand your dilemna.

 

Would it be possible to make a really nice den area for eldest with a couch, tv, computer, whatever she likes that is a comforting, quiet area away from little sister?

[Loowit]

I just don't think it is an emotionally safe place for her to be.  Even if she is psychically okay at P2's house, that doesn't mean she is mentally okay.  I get that parents mess up, but this isn't typical or acceptable and a decent parent would figure that out.  This isn't just a parenting difference, it is a huge deal IMO.  It is emotionally manipulative and very unhealthy, especially for a child that has no control over herself in this situation.  I get that you are between a rock and a hard place, but I don't think I could justify sending my child into a situation to be treated in that way ever.

[katilac]

In my first response, I intentionally did not assume that you were talking about your own situation, I went with the available info. 

 

With the update that it is your dd, I'd say to look at ways to make her time with him better in the long run - in the very practical sense, not in the "let's make him a better parent" sense. Can she have a tablet to play games on and watch her own tv shows? If it doesn't work for her to have it all the time, maybe it can be restricted to when she visits this parent. Maybe she could have a box of stuff to bring back and forth, or to leave there if that's a viable option. 

 

Special food treats. A surprise packed in her suitcase to open once there. 

 

Would the parent be open to the occasional suggestion of things to do with her? Is it an option to say, hey, someone gave me free tickets to x event, do you want to take her? If that would work, I might have dh buy the occasional tickets and give them to me  :coolgleamA:

 

Do you think it's likely that he will not back down at all on Christmas? If he is going to have her on the holidays, can you have a talk with dd that dates are arbitrary, and that she will have her holiday at home?  

 

I'd want to protect the child, but I'm also a big believer that siblings of the difficult or special needs child need protection as well. If you keep her from going all the time, it's kind of just trading her miserable time for her older sister's miserable time. You don't have great options, and you just have to do the best you can. 

[swellmomma]

Having read the update I can understand the extra strain.  My ex-husband is the only respite I have from my oldest, but when he was making decisions that were over the top I put my foot down.  Our situation is different for sure but I know that even when that break is needed if the choices being made are detrimental to the child than there needs to be a change. It is hard when you have multiple children with issues and need to look out for the best interests of both.  The respite is needed for dd18, but in giving her that you are subjecting the other to overly restrictive and unhealthy parenting.  But keeping her home makes things work for dd18.  I get it, it is hard.  But I guess that's par for the course, often parenting as a whole is hard.  Either way you are putting one child's needs above the other. Either way you are screwed as is 1 of the girls. 

Options:

1)keep the status quo, child goes to P2 and suffers at his overly punitive parenting and self proclaimed laziness.  Which is detrimental to her long term mental health.

 

2) Keep child home from P2, 18 yr old struggles health wise which is detrimental for her.

 

3) Hire outside respite care for 1 or the other girl.

 

4) Give P2 another chance, but lay down the law in no uncertain terms about what is acceptable and what is not.

In my situation I went with option 4.  It blew up big time, I made it clear if he wanted to see the kids he would change how he did things or that would be the end of all visits.  He learned mostly to smarten up (never anymore like it was before I had to have it out with him, but enough that now the kids rarely agree to a visit and they were few and far between to begin with). 

I would keep her home until after the holidays at a minimum, then allow it only after he has agreed to the terms, which would include not being allowed to issue punishments in the heat of the moment. And at the same time be looking for another source for respite to send her to if he can't abide by that.

[Ravin]

I would end the visits unless and until DD wants to and P2 agrees to parenting classes/counseling appropriate to DD's needs.

 

I would work with DD 18 to find her a weekend escape.

Edited December 11, 2016 by Ravin

[Guest]

P2 sounds like he is parenting as he was parented, benign neglect. Removing items or privileges simplifies things, as that makes less triggers for future tantrums - probably was the technique used in his childhood. The parent controlling the TV is quite common, when I grew up that was the norm. He isnt entertaining, but expects child to occcupy herself. Meltdowns are probably a new concept, and you could give him some education on them, as well as what the plan is to help prevent them from developing. He might consider using the plan if it simplifies his weekend. He isnt physically abusing, even when stressed. No harm in returning. Their relationship will adjust as time goes by. It is not optimum, but its unrealistic to expect him to be as expert as a professional.

 

Could an apt be made for the 18? Separate, locked entrance with secured windows and path to vehicle?

Edited December 12, 2016 by Heigh Ho

[maize]

He isnt physically abusing, even when stressed. No harm in returning.

 

Whoa, no physical abuse does not equal no harm.

 

Emotional abuse can have life long consequences.

[QueenCat]

Whoa, no physical abuse does not equal no harm.

 

Emotional abuse can have life long consequences.

 

Very much so. I would consider what P2 is doing as emotional abuse.

[OneStepAtATime]

Read your updated first post. Good luck Tap. Hugs and best wishes.

[Guest]

Whoa, no physical abuse does not equal no harm.

 

Emotional abuse can have life long consequences.

He most likely wasnt emotionally abusive intentionally - in his mind he was responding appropriately to a tantrum, not a meltdown.

 

About Christmas....part of the Christmas story is that children who are naughty do not get rewarded with gifts. They get 'nuttin'" as the song goes. The response P2 gave indicates he thought he was being given a tantrum, and he removed the tantrum triggers. That is a kindness...other parents would leave the presents and put someone elses name on them, or continually remind the child of the forbidden fruit as they attempt to train the child to not 'take the bait'. And he is following thru on the Christmas compact, giving nothing in return for the tantrum. If it was really a meltdown, sure its not the right response, but at some point he has to be educated on the differences. He is not the only parent who does not know how to distinguish tantrum vs meltdown, and it is a set up for failure if he wasnt given that information and how to respond to it given the s.n.

 

The pool...not considered abusive at all. As the supervising adult and lifeguard on duty, it is his call to not accept the responsibility of supervising anyone whom he thinks he cannot keep safe. My son's scoutmaster and the P.E. teachers at school do the same. More than 1 person is needed to lifeguard if its a swimmer who is impulsive and does not take direction from caregivers and the safety of all is considered.

Edited December 12, 2016 by Heigh Ho

[swellmomma]

He most likely wasnt emotionally abusive intentionally - in his mind he was responding appropriately to a tantrum, not a meltdown.

 

About Christmas....part of the Christmas story is that children who are naughty do not get rewarded with gifts. They get 'nuttin'" as the song goes. The response P2 gave indicates he thought he was being given a tantrum, and he removed the tantrum triggers. That is a kindness...other parents would leave the presents and put someone elses name on them, or continually remind the child of the forbidden fruit as they attempt to train the child to not 'take the bait'. And he is following thru on the Christmas compact, giving nothing in return for the tantrum. If it was really a meltdown, sure its not the right response, but at some point he has to be educated on the differences. He is not the only parent who does not know how to distinguish tantrum vs meltdown, and it is a set up for failure if he wasnt given that information and how to respond to it given the s.n.

 

The pool...not considered abusive at all. As the supervising adult and lifeguard on duty, it is his call to not accept the responsibility of supervising anyone whom he thinks he cannot keep safe. My son's scoutmaster and the P.E. teachers at school do the same. More than 1 person is needed to lifeguard if its a swimmer who is impulsive and does not take direction from caregivers and the safety of all is considered.

First thing that stood out was who cares if the story says bad kids don't get gifts. Ultimately following through with that is bad parenting imo.

 

Second he wad given opportunities to learn more about her issues, how to help etc. And refused. He was not set up for failure, he willfully chose that because it required too much work to actually be involved in her treatment.

 

Thirdly, threads like these with posters that think highly punitive and impulsive punishments are not only acceptable but are to be praised makes me lose a little faith in humanity.

[maize]

He most likely wasnt emotionally abusive intentionally - in his mind he was responding appropriately to a tantrum, not a meltdown.

 

 

 

I don't think any parent thinks "I'm going to abuse this child" before they do something abusive. They all think they are responding appropriately to naughtiness on the part of the child. 

[Guest]

First thing that stood out was who cares if the story says bad kids don't get gifts. Ultimately following through with that is bad parenting imo.

 

Second he wad given opportunities to learn more about her issues, how to help etc. And refused. He was not set up for failure, he willfully chose that because it required too much work to actually be involved in her treatment.

 

Thirdly, threads like these with posters that think highly punitive and impulsive punishments are not only acceptable but are to be praised makes me lose a little faith in humanity.

P2 is not a therapist. He is a working parent who is providing respite over the weekend. P2 seems to be operating from his upbringing. The punishment is not impulsive in his worldview-- it is the standard response to children who tantrum and attempt to manipulate. Attributing that worldview to posters who attempt to explain it shows lack of reading comprehension. Please re-read post number 1, and consider stopping the hate toward other cultures.

[Guest]

I don't think any parent thinks "I'm going to abuse this child" before they do something abusive. They all think they are responding appropriately to naughtiness on the part of the child.

Actually people do. Sometimes they have a plan for it, and give themselves a time out in order to stop. Sometimes they chop down the tree, dont buy the whiskey, and get rid of the strap, so they wont go there if their emotions get out of hand. A time out, and a pre-scripted plan while they gain emotional control. Others recognize they were abused as children, and need a better way...perhaps an authoritative parenting class.

Edited December 12, 2016 by Heigh Ho

[swellmomma]

P2 is not a therapist. He is a working parent who is providing respite over the weekend. P2 seems to be operating from his upbringing. The punishment is not impulsive in his worldview-- it is the standard response to children who tantrum and attempt to manipulate. Attributing that worldview to posters who attempt to explain it shows lack of reading comprehension. Please re-read post number 1, and consider stopping the hate toward other cultures.

There was no hate of other cultures. Where the heck are you even getting that? The op statef from the beginning that he was invited to join in on ther therapy, to learn more etc. That is a choice he made. That has nothing to do with a culture. Nor does being disappointed in the responses of some baord members in thinking parenting the way he does idsnot only okay but being lauded as good parenting. No where in any of my responses in this thread has there been hate for other cultures. But hey, if that's what you need to believe to feel better about your own choices have at 'er

[idnib]

I agree with those that are concerned about sending a 10 yo girl back to a male authority figure who is treating her like this. The better message for a girl that age is that you can maintain distance from someone who is treating you badly and that you don't have to submit to it, even if you have special needs and sometimes you act inappropriately.

 

I mean, he's not even really trying to get to the place where he can understand. Effort counts for something, IMO.