How would you handle this....separate households...--post deleted by OP---

[Tap]

Post deleted by OP.

 

 

I want to thank everyone for your insights.  It has really helped me to think the situation through, not only from my side, but my daughters and her bio-dad (P2) as well.  My decisions on future actions will be made after I have a conversation with him.  I need to know she is safe, both mentally and physically. I wholeheartedly appreciate everyone taking the time to respond, lend support, encourage me, advise me and defend me.  I also appreciate those who were willing to give a counter opinion (which isn't always easy in a post where opinions are strongly tilted one way), because it gave me some insight in to the bio-dads (P2) perspective of the situation.  Whether or not I agree with that point of view, is irrelevant,  the insight was appreciated. 

 

 

Thank you all from the bottom of my heart.

Tap

 

 

 

Edited December 12, 2016 by Tap

[maize]

No, I would not make her visit. P2 is exhibiting an arbitrarily punitive style of parenting that in no way is going to help the child. Parent2's home is not a healthy environment for her under those conditions.

[fraidycat]

That's tough.

 

Will P2's removal of Christmas/continued punishment exacerbate her behavior at home?

 

I'd do whatever is likeliest to make P1's life the easiest in a non-easy situation. If her going makes life harder for you in the long run, I'd keep her home.

[Little Nyssa]

??? I would seriously consider not letting her go there ever again, even if she wanted to.

[Guest]

No, I would not make her go.

[Anne in CA]

I get the bad spot a child like this can put you in. I do. I had a child with SOME of these issues who nearly killed me.  But revoking Christmas??? Ummm are you Santa??? There is no reason to resort to this. If you are at the end of your rope there are other options. Believe me, I have been at the end of my rope hanging onto a huge knot and swinging.

[OneStepAtATime]

If she is not legally required to go, I would not make her go.  At all.  And would not feel bad about it.  Not having to go might actually help eventually with behavior to some extent.  And certainly going seems detrimental.  She is already 10.  Emotional damage could become permanent.  The environment is not healthy and P2 is not making any effort to learn about and work to be a healthy support structure in this special needs child's life.  Further contact like what is already happening could cause serious damage.

[EndOfOrdinary]

It sounds like she is upset about the consequences of her behavior. P2's is boring because the fun stuff is gone. She caused the fun stuff to be taken away (whether or not this was great parenting is another matter). Having her have to sit in the boring ickiness for at least a couple of months would seem reasonable to me. Of course she doesn't want to go. But continuously reminding her that these are the consequences of her actions seems like the best route. It sucks. Welcome to tough love. I do not think you force her to go after two months, but to just let her out of it is to say there is an easy out for doing something unexceptable.

 

I will preface this by saying I am not a snuggly parent. I have to work very hard at snuggly as I did not come from a snuggly parent household.

 

She is going to have to learn this sometime or the consequences as an older person will be drastic. It might not be a magic bullet, but it is a recurring reminder for quite a bit.

[maize]

It sounds like she is upset about the consequences of her behavior. P2's is boring because the fun stuff is gone. She caused the fun stuff to be taken away (whether or not this was great parenting is another matter). Having her have to sit in the boring ickiness for at least a couple of months would seem reasonable to me. Of course she doesn't want to go. But continuously reminding her that these are the consequences of her actions seems like the best route. It sucks. Welcome to tough love. I do not think you force her to go after two months, but to just let her out of it is to say there is an easy out for doing something unexceptable.

 

I will preface this by saying I am not a snuggly parent. I have to work very hard at snuggly as I did not come from a snuggly parent household.

 

She is going to have to learn this sometime or the consequences as an older person will be drastic. It might not be a magic bullet, but it is a recurring reminder for quite a bit.

A special needs child may be incapable of understanding and processing consequence in the manner you intend. She is most definitely capable of experiencing trauma, however, and P2's parenting style is traumatizing.

 

Of course, P2 was reacting to the child's own traumatizing behavior. Adults who interact with children like this, however, cannot afford to parent reactively; such behavior on the part of the parent can only escalate matters.

 

Since P2 is not willing or able to learn and use less reactive parenting strategies, he should not be parenting this child.

[City Mouse]

I would not force a child to go with a non-custodial parent unless it was legally necessary. But I maight try to strongly encourage the child to go in a situation where the other home was just "boring". I might give an incentive or help her pack a few things to take with her so that she has something to do. Or have her go for the day but not spen the night.

 

On the other hand, since she is known to have serious behavior problems and he has already taken away Chrismas and most of her toys, what is left for him as punishment? I might be afraid that his response will escalate further where he might be a danger to her. I can't really say for sure since I don't know this person.

[katilac]

I would not make her go, and would be very inclined to not allow unsupervised visits even if she does want to go. 

 

Depending on unknown details, I would most likely encourage her to visit with him occasionally, at neutral places for a limited time, and possibly with supervision. Most instances I have seen of completely cutting off contact do not end well - frequently the child wants up romanticizing the missing parent, even if the child is the one who did not want to see them.

 

I have seen well-intentioned parents make what I consider to be appalling decisions. It's complicated when special needs are involved, and I do think that some people really do not have the capability to understand when to be stern and when to flex. Heck, I see a Facebook post sneering at 'special snowflakes' who do not know how to behave pretty much every single day, often accompanied by an insistence that today's parents should be spanking such behavior out of their children. Taking away Christmas would be lauded as being a good parent by many, many people. 

 

So I would absolutely protect the child physically and emotionally, but I would try not to demonize P2, and I would try to encourage some limited contact. 

[OneStepAtATime]

It sounds like she is upset about the consequences of her behavior. P2's is boring because the fun stuff is gone. She caused the fun stuff to be taken away (whether or not this was great parenting is another matter). Having her have to sit in the boring ickiness for at least a couple of months would seem reasonable to me. Of course she doesn't want to go. But continuously reminding her that these are the consequences of her actions seems like the best route. It sucks. Welcome to tough love. I do not think you force her to go after two months, but to just let her out of it is to say there is an easy out for doing something unexceptable.

 

I will preface this by saying I am not a snuggly parent. I have to work very hard at snuggly as I did not come from a snuggly parent household.

 

She is going to have to learn this sometime or the consequences as an older person will be drastic. It might not be a magic bullet, but it is a recurring reminder for quite a bit.

 

Having been around a family member's child that had special needs of this nature, I must respectfully disagree.  Depending on the underlying special needs, this could be horrifically damaging.  For some children, punitive consequences while neurological brain function is not performing normally is NOT helpful, will NOT teach them anything, and undermines any positive work that had been done to modify behaviors.  Since the OP has posted that the child has been under a doctor's care, has previously been doing Behavior Therapy and has a long history of extreme issues with emotional impulse control I am assuming that this child is not neurologically typical and cannot, in the moment, control her reactions.  Punitive measures make little sense in that situation.  They make as much sense as punishing someone for having a seizure.  This has nothing to do with tough love.

 

Seriously, OP, don't feel obligated to take her back.  From what you have posted it sounds like she needs a supportive, consistent environment and care givers that work WITH her to help her be more functional.  Her P2 is unwilling to learn how to provide the environment she needs.  His reactions are proving that he does not understand her and is reacting as if these are just normal temper tantrums of a spoiled child.  Therefore, sending her back there could be exceedingly harmful.  

 

:grouphug:  :grouphug:  :grouphug:

[OneStepAtATime]

I do agree, though, that I would be careful how I talked about P2 and would someday hope that P2, if they genuinely care about the child, would be willing to learn more about her issues and make a bigger effort to be a positive influence in her life.  I would not cut all contact.  I do think I would give it a cooling off period and give her time to try and find some equilibrium.  

[katilac]

Question: is he actually scheduled to have her for Christmas? Because no way in heck would I send her to visit him for Christmas when he has already 'taken Christmas away.'

[gardenmom5]

It's natural you want your child to have a relationship with P2, but it sounds like it's not as important to P2 as it is to you.   based upon your description of P2's lifestyle (no drive, lazy, etc.), I do wonder how beneficial the relationship actually is for a special needs child when P2 is giving signs of not really understanding what child needs. vs detrimental.  (don't underestimate the damage of a lazy/unambitious parent.  just their example and the constant message of not-caring about  life.)

 

p2 needs to put for some effort to fix the damage they did.

[Jean in Newcastle]

Putting a child with special needs in a situation where she is not allowed to have age/developmentally appropriate ways to pass the time is shortsighted and doesn't teach anything. This isn't specifically about Christmas. It is about adults needing to act like adults. I would keep her home with P1.


 

Edited December 10, 2016 by Jean in Newcastle

[zoobie]

It doesn't sound as though P2 has the necessary tools to cope with the child. I wouldn't make her go nor would I encourage it until he takes steps to learn how to deal with her effectively, especially if it's a powder keg type situation with her.

[gardenmom5]

It sounds like she is upset about the consequences of her behavior. P2's is boring because the fun stuff is gone. 

 

I'm  going to go out on a limb and guess you have absolutely no experience/comprehension with parenting special needs kids.

 

 

OP  the suggestion he not have unsupervised visits is a good one.  until he can understand the differences in parenting special needs requires - this is going to be destabilizing for her.  the inconsistency from your house to his house is a big deal - and this is supposed to be her parent who is treating her this way.   that could actually increase her struggles.

 

it has nothing to do with being "boring".

[ktgrok]

A special needs child may be incapable of understanding and processing consequence in the manner you intend. She is most definitely capable of experiencing trauma, however, and P2's parenting style is traumatizing.

 

 

 Exactly this. 

[J-rap]

I would not send her.  It sounds like her needs are deep and complex, and simply taking away Christmas will not help anything at all.  I would keep her home.

 

 

[prairiewindmomma]

Maize, Katilac, and Jean have already posted what I would advise based on the info you have shared.

[bettyandbob]

How does not visiting P2 affect P1? is respite an ongoing issue for P1?

 

One thing I see is that visiting P2 can be respite for P1 and other family. Respite may be very important with a very challenging child. 

 

However, does a weekend with P2 result in worse behavior when child returns to P1, making respite not worthwhile. 

 

Or maybe the continued visits are having a longterm impact slowing improvement in child's growth and maturity. 

 

I guess if there isn't a major backlash when child returns to P1, I would reduce the frequency (1x a month?) and work on other options. If respite is necessary to the health of the family and the option of sending child to P2 is taken away, P1s home could become an unhealthy place for the child, as well as other family members. 

 

It's a situation of choosing lesser of evils. Something parents of special needs kids face a lot. 

 

disregard my response if respite is not an issue. 

 

 

ETA  if respite is an issue, I hope P1 is in a state that funds such services and the child fits into a category where appropriate caregivers are available. 

 

 

 

Edited December 10, 2016 by Diana P.

[hornblower]

No, I wouldn't make her go until she wants to & when she does want to, I agree with the other suggestions to make the visits shorter/supervised/neutral to try to promote successful peaceful interactions. 

I'd also personally want to spend time explaining to her that what happened was P2s fault. The adult failed to adult. 

[LucyStoner]

If the custodial parent has no legal obligation to allow visitation, I would encourage them to stop visitations immediately. If the non-custodial parent (who seems to have serious issues wishes to resume visitations, the custodial parent could be open to supervised short visits and/or ask the non-custodial parent to complete parenting classes and/or participate in parenting coaching with a coach who is skilled with special needs kids and the related parenting issues prior to resuming visits.

Edited December 10, 2016 by LucyStoner

[Heatherwith4]

No, I wouldn't make her go. I think it's cruel to "take Christmas" away from any child, especially a special needs child. Also, it sounds like he has no clue how to deal with her special needs.

[LucyStoner]

It sounds like she is upset about the consequences of her behavior. P2's is boring because the fun stuff is gone. She caused the fun stuff to be taken away (whether or not this was great parenting is another matter). Having her have to sit in the boring ickiness for at least a couple of months would seem reasonable to me. Of course she doesn't want to go. But continuously reminding her that these are the consequences of her actions seems like the best route. It sucks. Welcome to tough love. I do not think you force her to go after two months, but to just let her out of it is to say there is an easy out for doing something unexceptable.

 

I will preface this by saying I am not a snuggly parent. I have to work very hard at snuggly as I did not come from a snuggly parent household.

 

She is going to have to learn this sometime or the consequences as an older person will be drastic. It might not be a magic bullet, but it is a recurring reminder for quite a bit.

This response is predicated on P2 being a rational and competent parent. That is clearly not the case.

 

Continuing optional unsupervised visits with someone who is not prepared to parent a special needs child could easily exacerbate the child's issues.

 

Non-custodial parents without legal rights and without a strong history with the child and demonstrable competence shouldn't be making any punishment decisions without the input and guidance of the custodial parent. It's just not P2s purview.

[MistyMountain]

I would not send the child every week in those circumstances especially since it is not neccassary. I would consider sending them less often for shorter visits but they are better off with the stable parent more often. Weekly is too often especially since there are no weekends with the more stable family. I definitely would not have her spend the holidays with him.

Edited December 10, 2016 by MistyMountain

[bolt.]

I would diplomatically say that I had decided to put off the weekend visits until at least the new year, since they just aren't having a positive relationship right now, and since Christmas seems to be part of the problem. I'd add that I would be thinking about making some changes for the new year as well, so that they both can enjoy their time together more.

 

I'd tell them both in a way that made it clear I was deciding to stop the visits for my own adult, parental, reasons -- not that I was asking the child what the child wanted to do. I woukd tell the child before the next weekend, and not bring up the question of, 'Do you want to go?'

 

In the new year I'd re-start with shorter more neutral visits. I'd probably not go back to every weekend. The child needs some weekend time with their primary family, even in shared custody situations. And, I'd eventually make it clear that no matter where Christmas falls in the future, it's always yours.

[Halftime Hope]

One of the facets of this situation no one has addressed is whether Tap and the rest of her family need(ed) the time for the challenging child to be with P2 as respite from dealing with her 24/7.  

 

If having her visit P2 was a healthy thing for Tap, maybe Tap needs to get respite help while the visits are changed to fit within P2's limited parenting capacity and DearChild's equally limited coping skills.

 

 

[maize]

One of the facets of this situation no one has addressed is whether Tap and the rest of her family need(ed) the time for the challenging child to be with P2 as respite from dealing with her 24/7.

 

If having her visit P2 was a healthy thing for Tap, maybe Tap needs to get respite help while the visits are changed to fit within P2's limited parenting capacity and DearChild's equally limited coping skills.

If we are offering advice though it can only be based off of what Tap has told us. If respite for her/the rest of the family were a factor she wanted us to consider I have to assume she would have mentioned that.

[bettyandbob]

One of the facets of this situation no one has addressed is whether Tap and the rest of her family need(ed) the time for the challenging child to be with P2 as respite from dealing with her 24/7.  

 

If having her visit P2 was a healthy thing for Tap, maybe Tap needs to get respite help while the visits are changed to fit within P2's limited parenting capacity and DearChild's equally limited coping skills.

 

 

Actually, I thought I was saying that in my response. Perhaps the OP can let us know. The way the OP wrote the situation she did not say respite was an issue, however having followed the OPs story for several years I surmise it might be a big part of why "obviously don't send the child" is not a good response. 

[bolt.]

One of the facets of this situation no one has addressed is whether Tap and the rest of her family need(ed) the time for the challenging child to be with P2 as respite from dealing with her 24/7.

 

If having her visit P2 was a healthy thing for Tap, maybe Tap needs to get respite help while the visits are changed to fit within P2's limited parenting capacity and DearChild's equally limited coping skills.

I agree. An alternate plan to have adiquate rest is an important part of any plans that reduce P2's time and increase the child's time at home.

[NorthwestMom]

A special needs child may be incapable of understanding and processing consequence in the manner you intend. She is most definitely capable of experiencing trauma, however, and P2's parenting style is traumatizing.

 

Of course, P2 was reacting to the child's own traumatizing behavior. Adults who interact with children like this, however, cannot afford to parent reactively; such behavior on the part of the parent can only escalate matters.

 

Since P2 is not willing or able to learn and use less reactive parenting strategies, he should not be parenting this child.

:iagree:

 

Maize said it SO well.

 

I think taking away Christmas for a 10yo is sh**** parenting.

I think taking away Christmas from a 10yo child with special needs that you have declined to be involved in treating is EXTRA sh**** parenting.

I think making a 10yo child with special needs  go along to return all her own presents is nuclear sh**** parenting.

 

P2 needs to GROW the F up before doing any more "parenting".  :mad:  :mad:  :mad:

[Halftime Hope]

Actually, I thought I was saying that in my response. Perhaps the OP can let us know. The way the OP wrote the situation she did not say respite was an issue, however having followed the OPs story for several years I surmise it might be a big part of why "obviously don't send the child" is not a good response. 

 

My apologies, Diana.  I see that I skipped over your post which did address the respite issue...I got called away and missed several posts when I came back.

[Lilaclady]

It sounds like she is upset about the consequences of her behavior. P2's is boring because the fun stuff is gone. She caused the fun stuff to be taken away (whether or not this was great parenting is another matter). Having her have to sit in the boring ickiness for at least a couple of months would seem reasonable to me. Of course she doesn't want to go. But continuously reminding her that these are the consequences of her actions seems like the best route. It sucks. Welcome to tough love. I do not think you force her to go after two months, but to just let her out of it is to say there is an easy out for doing something unexceptable.

 

I will preface this by saying I am not a snuggly parent. I have to work very hard at snuggly as I did not come from a snuggly parent household.

 

She is going to have to learn this sometime or the consequences as an older person will be drastic. It might not be a magic bullet, but it is a recurring reminder for quite a bit.

I like this.

 

Though she is not neurotypical, she is still able to get that her actions have consequences. P2 though not as enhanced as you will like is still a constant in her life. I don't think it is advisable to stop her from going.

 

Life is not all roses and while p2's parenting style is not the best, they should be able to deal with it between themselves. Are there things that she can take to p2's house so she is not just sitting and watching tv?

[Guest]

Others have brought it up - is respite/a break a need here or is everything else equal and the child's needs the only big ones under consideration? I'd not make her go unless the benefits to the family outweighed the disadvantages of P2.

[katilac]

 

Life is not all roses and while p2's parenting style is not the best, they should be able to deal with it between themselves.  

 

Dragging a child along to watch as you return Christmas gifts, and stating that there will be "zero Christmas" for her to the extent of excluding all amusement and visitors, takes a parenting style way beyond "not the best" in my world. 

 

I posted in favor of encouraging short visits if possible, but in no way would I leave a child I had custody of to deal with this on their own. Some contact with even marginal biological family is generally preferable to none, imo, but only full-fledged parents get to deal with things in exactly the way they want. Bio parents with no legal rights and issues such as this have to defer to the legal guardians in my world. 

 

Definitely, any child in my custody will NOT be denied Christmas, and will not be spending the holiday with anyone who believes that's a sensible action or even a sensible threat. He's already given her painful memories for the rest of her life. 

Edited December 10, 2016 by katilac

[kroe1]

It sounds to me like P2 may be on to something. Child is demonstrating she does understand cause and effect.

 

A writer friend who is an alcoholic once said something very profound. At the time I was learning about the hypothalamus structure being different in some forms of behavior extremes. I was explaining why these behaviors had to be accepted and understood because someone was born with these deficiencies in the hypothalamus.

 

My friend looked at me and said, "that is the stupidest thing I have ever heard. They told me my hypothalamus might be messed up, too, when I was going through rehab. But I still have to learn how to live in society."

 

The moral of the story is that we all must learn to face the consequences of our actions, no matter what our gifts and deficiencies. P2 seems to be figuring this out quickly and helping his DD greatly. I would make her continue to go.

[katilac]

 P2 seems to be figuring this out quickly and helping his DD greatly.  

 

I'm curious - did you read something in the post that specifically makes you think that he is helping his daughter greatly? Or do you just think the tough love of taking away Christmas is bound to help her? 

[AimeeM]

It sounds like she is upset about the consequences of her behavior. P2's is boring because the fun stuff is gone. She caused the fun stuff to be taken away (whether or not this was great parenting is another matter). Having her have to sit in the boring ickiness for at least a couple of months would seem reasonable to me. Of course she doesn't want to go. But continuously reminding her that these are the consequences of her actions seems like the best route. It sucks. Welcome to tough love. I do not think you force her to go after two months, but to just let her out of it is to say there is an easy out for doing something unexceptable.

 

I will preface this by saying I am not a snuggly parent. I have to work very hard at snuggly as I did not come from a snuggly parent household.

 

She is going to have to learn this sometime or the consequences as an older person will be drastic. It might not be a magic bullet, but it is a recurring reminder for quite a bit.

Punishing a special needs' child's meltdowns with such long-term, overboard punishments is, like, NEVER recommended. 

 

If my son could stop having meltdowns-thus giving him more time to be in his "happy place," no more broken blood vessels around his eyes from screaming and melting for so long and so hard- he would do it. No amount of yelling or punishing is going to correct my kid's "behaviors" and I wouldn't assume it would for any child with a special needs dx of a variety that includes similar meltdowns. You're assuming this child understands the consequences correlate to their behavior - during the behavior.

 

 

Edited December 10, 2016 by AimeeM

[AimeeM]

I like this.

 

Though she is not neurotypical, she is still able to get that her actions have consequences. P2 though not as enhanced as you will like is still a constant in her life. I don't think it is advisable to stop her from going.

 

Life is not all roses and while p2's parenting style is not the best, they should be able to deal with it between themselves. Are there things that she can take to p2's house so she is not just sitting and watching tv?

No. 

Anyone can notice cause and effect and that actions have consequences - after the ordeal. Not everyone is capable of capable of stopping a behavior, during said behavior, in order to prevent those consequences.

 

ETA: And it's not only an a*shole move, but an idiot move, to take away all of this child's activities. In what world is a bored child a more well behaved child? Especially one with special needs? She can watch PS2 play video games??? Seriously? And he's doing her a GOOD THING?

Edited December 10, 2016 by AimeeM

[justasque]

While actions have consequences is an important concept to learn, part of that is it's important to learn how to manage your life so that you have the best chance of avoiding situations that may trigger you to behave in negative ways.  Empowering the child to make discerning choices about their environment can help them to self-control their behavior.  Thus, if the child feels that visiting P2 may not be a positive environment, and there is no legal requirement that the child visit P2, then their concerns should be respected.  P1 might be able to work with P2 and the child to come up with a plan for a visit that might be more likely to result in a positive experience for the child; that might be shorter, non-overnight, at a neutral location, and/or with a planned activity.

It is of course a balance.  Children sometimes need to be in environments which may be difficult for them; in those cases everyone involved just has to do the best they can, ideally with sensitivity to the child's difficulty with the experience.  In other cases, children can benefit from being encouraged to venture into environments which might be challenging, but in which a successful experience may open doors to other positive pathways.  Neither of these situations seem to be the case here - the child doesn't need to go to P2's home, and encouraging them to do so is unlikely to result in positive growth.  So in this case, I'd respect the child's desire not to go.

[Junie]

I would diplomatically say that I had decided to put off the weekend visits until at least the new year, since they just aren't having a positive relationship right now, and since Christmas seems to be part of the problem. I'd add that I would be thinking about making some changes for the new year as well, so that they both can enjoy their time together more.

 

I'd tell them both in a way that made it clear I was deciding to stop the visits for my own adult, parental, reasons -- not that I was asking the child what the child wanted to do. I woukd tell the child before the next weekend, and not bring up the question of, 'Do you want to go?'

 

In the new year I'd re-start with shorter more neutral visits. I'd probably not go back to every weekend. The child needs some weekend time with their primary family, even in shared custody situations. And, I'd eventually make it clear that no matter where Christmas falls in the future, it's always yours.

 

:iagree:

 

I think that if Parent 2 is interested in the child he should absolutely be allowed to see her.  I think that he might need some parenting instruction and perhaps shorter visits, but I think that the visits are important.

 

I grew up with divorced parents.  My father had very poor parenting skills and some other issues.  He legally had once-a-week visitation rights, but no overnight visits.  I hated going to visit him.  Hated it.  But the courts forced my mom to let him have us.  The only thing good about the visits was that my sister was with me.

 

When I was about nine, he stopped coming to pick us up.  At the time, I thought it was because he didn't love me.  I found out later that it was for other reasons that had nothing to do with me.

 

My dad and I tried to patch up our relationship many years later.  It never really worked.  We ended up visiting for about an hour a year and exchanging Christmas presents and talking about how much the kids had grown.  My sister never did make amends with him.

 

He passed away years ago.  When he died, I mourned not for what I lost but for what I never had.

 

Anyway, I hope that your dc is able to have a good relationship with P2, despite the rocky current situation.  I wouldn't give up on it but try to find a way to fix it.

[idnib]

So, when does P2 get to experience consequences? Why are people so worried about consequences for the child with the diagnosis, instead of the adult?

 

He can see her in January, I think. I wouldn't make her go.

Edited December 10, 2016 by idnib

[chiguirre]

I'd decide based on whether or not I thought the situation with P2 could escalate into violence. If you think dd won't attack him or trash his apartment, I'd let her go. It's a chance for both of them to experience the consequences of their behavior. P2 will learn that a bored kid is a pain to deal with, dd will learn that if you tick people off badly enough they will take away your stuff. However, if you think she might escalate from boredom and P2 will find himself unable to cope if she starts aggressing, I wouldn't let her go. He doesn't have visitation and you'll be liable if either of them gets hurt.

 

:grouphug: 

 

It's a tough decision.

[Valley Girl]

No. 

Anyone can notice cause and effect and that actions have consequences - after the ordeal. Not everyone is capable of capable of stopping a behavior, during said behavior, in order to prevent those consequences.

 

 

 

Exactly. AFTER the emotional meltdown and raging, we can talk about what happened... what precipitated it... and what we (parent and child) can do to help prevent or work through similiar situations more positively in the future. But stop it cold in the moment? Hell, no. And it's not because of lazy parenting or overindulgence or any of the other things that people who don't actually have to deal with situation think.

 

Edited to add: And talking through the situation assumes the child is even able to do that. I'm not sure how effective that approach is for Tap's DD. Of course, everybody needs to learn that actions have consequences. But failing to teach that in a way that is appropriate for the particular child and his/her special needs has consequences, too. Usually not good ones.

Edited December 10, 2016 by Reluctant Homeschooler

[gardenmom5]

Punishing a special needs' child's meltdowns with such long-term, overboard punishments is, like, NEVER recommended. 

 

If my son could stop having meltdowns-thus giving him more time to be in his "happy place," no more broken blood vessels around his eyes from screaming and melting for so long and so hard- he would do it. No amount of yelling or punishing is going to correct my kid's "behaviors" and I wouldn't assume it would for any child with a special needs dx of a variety that includes similar meltdowns. You're assuming this child understands the consequences correlate to their behavior - during the behavior.

 

:iagree:

It always amazes me people think special needs kids WANT (or don't care) to have a meltdown.  - special needs kids have passed their limit and are out of control.   a responsible and paying attention adult - will know what that child's limits are, and help them manage them without losing control. 

p2 doesn't understand his reactions made things worse.  while I can see the import of the relationship - I would be protecting that child from his clueless (at best) parenting style. 

 

the number of times my son would lose it -and while he's screaming and crying about how "he can't help it".  he really can't, all I can do is try to help him and comfort him through it.   really - he doesn't  like feeling that way.   afterwards we can discuss things.

[FaithManor]

P1 has not educated himself about his daughter's condition and does not exhibit appropriate parenting skills forr a special needs child. What he is doing is not helping child learn self control, but instead making her situation worse.

 

I would pull the plug on it. If he wants to be a part of her life, an evening once a week will do. No overnights, no long stays where he has the potential to get in over his head and lose it as a parent.

[hjffkj]

So, when does P2 get to experience consequences? Why are people so worried about consequences for the child with the diagnosis, instead of the adult?

 

He can see her in January, I think. I wouldn't make her go.

This is my thought as well. Yes, a special needs child who has meltdowns can sometimes learn that actions have consequences. My dd knows that after her meltdowns she must clean up all the toys she threw all over the room. She does not know that while she's having the meltdown, or she can't choose not to have one in order to avoid the consequence. But once she's in a better mood she knows what she needs to do, with help if she asks for it.

 

The punishment P2 gave was entirely insane and likely just made the meltdown worse. If he is unable and unwilling to work with the child and learn how to parent properly a consequence of that is he doesn't get to see her when it will be destructive to her health. Going over when he has not remedied his poor parenting decision is detrimental to her health so I say keep her home and let him live with the consequences of being a shitty parent.

 

I make bad parenting decisions all the time with my dd who has violent meltdowns. They make our relationship worse and make it harder for her to trust that I ultimately want to help her. But being the adult in the situation i acknowledge and apologize for my poor decision and work with her to move on from it.

[Lecka]

I think the child needs much more structure and consistency.

 

There is not structure provided at p2's home right now. If her executive functioning is weak, she needs structure. She can't magically provide structure for herself. She needs help on some level to plan what she wants to do, or begin and end activities, etc. She needs help to make transitions. If she is not getting that, I don't think it is fair to her.

 

I think some hang out time is fine. I count some amount of watching another person play video games as hang out time. I also count some amount of time watching tv shows that someone else has picked out as hang out time.

 

But it doesn't sound like this is fair, it sounds like she is labeled the bad kid there through Christmas at least. Kids labeled the bad kid usually get blamed for everything and treated more punitively than helpfully. Not always, but usually.

 

Then there is the consistency side. I think going back and forth is automatically stressful and inconsistent for some kids, and she may be one. I think you need to look at her schedule and routine on M-F and think about not making Sat/Sun just the same, but making some things about the structure/routine be more similar. Or make the expectations more similar.

 

I think it would be better to have a planned outing/activity/appointment that you structure and plan, and then p2 just has to show up. He may not really be capable of structure/planning himself, but very able to show up or meet somewhere for 1-2 hours.

 

I also think you need to think about what winter break is going to be.

 

It is a huge wrench in the schedule for a lot of kids who have special needs and behavior issues, who don't handle change well.

 

Can you talk to school about them sending home some things from school if that might be helpful, for her to do some of the same activities with the same materials?

 

Does she have a history of having a hard transition back to school on Mondays, or after school holidays? If so -- does school have any ideas?

 

For us if we keep some similar expectations it helps. It makes it less of a change to go back to school and have the day be so different.

 

If you have already tried going heavier on the schedule, consistency, routine, etc, and it has not helped, then I don't think "do it some more."

 

But it is worth trying, too.

 

I think it would be really hard on my son too and he would get in trouble and probably have transition issues.

 

But I wouldn't want to prevent seeing p2. Maybe a shorter time, maybe doing something you plan. I think either or a combination.

 

I would present it as trying to increase consistency/structure to try to help with the behavior issues.

 

I don't think it needs to be personal. A lot of people have a hard time providing such a high level of structure as might be needed.

 

I think it might be a relief to have things on a smaller scale that go well and are really nice times.

 

I would want to improve or maintain the relationship but take over a lot of the "being an adult" parts.

 

I would also look for any structure or routines you can build in to the weekends.

 

I do hope you can look for respite, too.

 

But I have seen my son do worse before a transition, and then do worse after a transition. And even though she has been going between households and between schooldays/weekends for her whole life, those are still huge transitions, or would be for my son.

 

I am thinking hard about my own winter vacation and how to keep it being such a stark difference to go from the last day of winter vacation to the first day back at school. And how to have the 3rd-4th day of winter break still have some structure and routine (this is the day it seems to fall apart usually, with nothing really planned).