When HS is outlawed

[SKL]

If you want to abuse your child here under the guise of homeschooling, you just don't register.  

 

It's kind of weird to think of a situation where a parent is being diligent enough to jump through all the hoops we have to register, and yet neglectful and abusive enough to need involvement of a mandated reporter.

 

The two things kind of don't go together. 

 

I don't know about that state, but here a kid of that age is truant if not enrolled or officially homeschooled.  While it may be possible to "fly under the radar," the neighbors could cause trouble if they notice a kid never going to school.

 

In many states, it isn't very difficult to meet the minimum registration / reporting requirements for homeschooling.

 

One thing I will note - the article doesn't actually say that they were in compliance with homeschool regulations.

 

Another question is whether states actually enforce their own regulations.  How long would it take for the state to intervene if a family didn't meet the requirements?  I assume that varies a lot from state to state.

[SKL]

My point is that in places with lots of oversight, there aren't increasing numbers of vulnerable children being identified with each new hoop.

 

Do you have suggestions for this that don't involve simply making the law abiding non abusive families jump through pointless oversight hoops ? 

 

I'm interested, but honestly I just don't see how it's going to happen.

 

I don't think that requiring a child to have some contact with a mandated reporter to be burdensome.  This could be met in a variety of ways, some of which are pretty low-cost and low-commitment.  Obviously a kid in b&m school is seen by mandated reporters all the time, so this is not a homeschooler-only "burden."

 

It is impossible to know how many times parents choose not to inflict severe abuse because of the likelihood that someone will see it.  I do think that having people see the kids is a deterrent, just based on IRL observations / anecdotes.

[luuknam]

On the subject of testing, I wonder what would happen with my kid whose tests randomly and inaccurately range from 0 to 3 years ahead of grade level.  (Actual ability is higher than all test results.)  True story - her reading scores in the 2nd grade were the same as in KG.  (This despite having read about a thousand books in the interim.)  We don't homeschool, but if we did, the test scores would not show the expected amount of year-over-year progress.  I wonder how common that is and what homeschoolers can do about it.

 

In the states I've heard about, kids need to score above a certain percentile OR make one full year of progress. So, your kids would be fine, because they'd be at the 50th percentile if 0 years ahead, or higher if more years ahead.

[QueenCat]

Kids here only go to the doctor that often until they are five.  So that seems unneccesary to me.  We'd have to fund a lot of extra, unneccesary check-ups.

 

Mine went far more than once a year before the age of 5. Annually well child checks until they were 18. And they both still get adult physicals every year. They got in the habit as kids and even the one who is on his own does it on his own every year. As do dh and I............

[QueenCat]

Yes, and the insurance (even post-ACA)stops covering them after age 12 -- and will only cover them every other year.

The timing strikes me as particularly odd, since this is prime puberty age, and things are changing rapidly.

 

Ours have had annual coverage up to 18 for well child and then annual for physicals for 18 and up. And this has been with a variety of insurance companies, both before and during ACA.

[kiwik]

Mine went far more than once a year before the age of 5. Annually well child checks until they were 18. And they both still get adult physicals every year. They got in the habit as kids and even the one who is on his own does it on his own every year. As do dh and I............

I don't know how I would get a physical. Appointments are 10 minutes and doctors don't see well people unless it is for a pap smear or something. Different cultures i guess.

[QueenCat]

I don't know how I would get a physical. Appointments are 10 minutes and doctors don't see well people unless it is for a pap smear or something. Different cultures i guess.

 

 

I'm in the U.S. Every doctor that I've ever had since becoming an adult expected to see me annually for a physical. I do all of my well woman stuff at the same appt (pap, br**st) exam at the same appt.

[ktgrok]

I wonder if part of the difference is, if you are sick in a country with socialized medicine, they know you will most likely go in before it gets serious. Versus in the US, where annual exams are "free" aka covered fully, but sick visits are not. So most people won't go to the doctor at the first sign of any chronic problems, so the best way to catch those things early is to insist on a yearly visit?

[poppy]

^ not homeschoolers; child abusers. Just because they choose to call themselves homeschoolers or the media decides to call them homeschoolers because they did not send their kids to school, does not make them homeschoolers. You have to actually homeschool your kids to be a homeschooler.

 

I've been mulling this thread over in my head the past couple of days and while my thoughts are not fully formed, I've come to the conclusion that it's really important to clarify what homeschooling is and is not. Just as homeschoolers explain why public school at home is not homeschooling, they should be equally quick to explain that abusive neglectful parenting is not homeschooling. We should be pointing out in public that these people are not homeschoolers and have nothing to do with homeschooling. People who traffic children are child traffickers. If you cheat on your taxes, you are a tax evader. If you abuse and neglect your children, you are a child abuser. Methods for flying under the radar to avoid getting caught are just that, methods. 

 

Encouraging nationwide regulation, because that is what would have to happen to get all states to comply, for a minority of abusers that would just use some other method is overly punitive to the rest of the homeschooling population. It's like agreeing to hand over all of our private personal data to the government because I have nothing to hide and someone else might be breaking the law. 

 

If you fear your neighbor turning you in for not sending your kids to school, then that's even more incentive to keep them locked in a closet. That's the horrifically sad truth. Whatever regulation you throw at them, they will find another way to do what they want because they really don't care about anyone but themselves. So I really don't think that regulation, no matter how insignificant it might seem to me as a person who is following the rules, is going to do anything but make my life more difficult. 

 

I think "all our private personal data" is incredibly hyperbolic.Who is asking for anything remotely like that?  This is more like: getting a car inspection.  I keep my car current for safety. I am responsible. Everyone I know is really responsible in that area, as well.  I don't like having to pay for annual inspections just because some people try to get away with driving cars without working headlights / functional brakes... but I see the necessity. I think most people do.

 

I am sure that annual requirements for kids would be much, much less stringent than annual car inspections, as well.  i live in a "high regulation" homeschooling state and my requirement include:

 

1. Send a letter at the beginning of the year notifying the school I am homeschooling. The school id legally obligated to accept my decision so long as I copy / paste the right words onto the paper. The school provides the words to copy / paste on their website.  If I fail to copy/paste the right words, they contact me to clarify. If I still don't get it, there are advocacy groups that will assist me. I could name 3 right now.

2. Send a letter at the end of the year incidating we've made progress in our goals as outlined in letter 1. The consequence for not sending this letter is, I get a call requesting it.

 

This is the horror of high regulation for homeschooling.

 

The woman who abused that poor child is "believed to be a homeschooler" which--- I don't know what the rules are in her state, or what they were 15+ years ago when she would have started. I don't know if laws would have made a difference. But I don't believe that treating her as not one of us serves anyone.

[Guest]

As far as sports physicals, my kids at 10yo have been in lots of sports and never required a physical, but maybe they will in the future. If it's less involved than a regular well visit, then that would mean probably less than 60 seconds of attention from any health professional. The likelihood of them catching a hidden problem that has existed undetected for 10 years is approximately nil.

 

My kids needed medical forms for a few of the summer activities they participated in. This included a "high adventure waiver" at scout camp. I was in Ukraine when I found out about this requirement and had no chance of getting my kids to a health professional prior to camp. I emailed the form to our chiropractor, who filled it out based on past experience with my kids. (This actually makes more sense than going to an MD, because our chiropractor actually spends a few minutes with the kids at each visit, unlike the MDs.) The camp accepted it. Most likely they never even looked at it.

 

I wonder if it's more of a liability issue, i.e., your doc said he was healthy enough to play football, so you can't sue me if he gets hurt. That would explain why it's a US thing.

It is safety. Supervising adults are given the task of insuring that campers and athletes get their meds, have an epipen available, etc. when they need it. The doctor doesnt omit that info...ime some parents do. They will take their child off meds for camp and then blame the supervising adult for not knowing Johnny was having withdrawal symptoms, or that his behavior is now a result of not being medicated. Johnny may also be having so much fun that he forgets his med without a reminder from the supervising adult.

[Bluegoat]

I wonder if part of the difference is, if you are sick in a country with socialized medicine, they know you will most likely go in before it gets serious. Versus in the US, where annual exams are "free" aka covered fully, but sick visits are not. So most people won't go to the doctor at the first sign of any chronic problems, so the best way to catch those things early is to insist on a yearly visit?

 

Maybe, but I wonder if it isn't a money-generating tactic.  It isn't like the doctors are doing the physicals for free. 

[Bluegoat]

So - I just did I quick bit of reaseach, and the reason most counties don't seem to have annual physicals is that the research says they don't improve health outcomes, aren't cost effective, and tend to create false positives.

[GoVanGogh]

So - I just did I quick bit of reaseach, and the reason most counties don't seem to have annual physicals is that the research says they don't improve health outcomes, aren't cost effective, and tend to create false positives.

And on the flip side:

My child never missed a well child exam. Not to mention that he had chronic allergies, asthma and ear infections. He was in the doctor's office all the time when he was younger. Yet his two pediatricians missed his cerebral palsy. They totally brushed off the fact that he has clonus! I had no idea what clonus was until DS was ten and received a late diagnosis of cp. Now that I do, I am pissed that his two pediatricians saw it but didn't know enough to refer us on to a neurologist when DS was younger. I no longer trust pediatricians or the concept of well child exams or physicals.

[idnib]

So - I just did I quick bit of reaseach, and the reason most counties don't seem to have annual physicals is that the research says they don't improve health outcomes, aren't cost effective, and tend to create false positives.

 

My parents were in the medical field before they retired. My dad in particular had a lot of exposure to many doctors and he made a habit of asking them if they had ever found anything serious in a child at a well-visit. In the 30 years he asked thousands of doctors while lecturing at symposiums, he never found one who did. It was always the parents (usually the mother) who found something was wrong, even if that clue was rather subtle such as rubbing their arm or a slightly changed gait. My dad would tell any doctor who would listen to always take what the parents said seriously, and that was the best indicator of a potential problem.

 

Annual physicals can help detect some problems in adults before they get more serious. One can often catch blood sugar that is creeping higher each year, anemia that is getting worse, or obesity. For children, I think the main reason for well-child visits is a schedule based on public health and government coverage for low income people, i.e. vaccinations. I almost died from a vaccination when I was a child, so we have been very cautious and have used an alternative and slow schedule for our kids. But it is a privilege because we have insurance to allow us to do that. Most vaccinations in our area for low income people are covered at the well child visits.

Edited December 12, 2016 by idnib

[SKL]

And on the flip side:

My child never missed a well child exam. Not to mention that he had chronic allergies, asthma and ear infections. He was in the doctor's office all the time when he was younger. Yet his two pediatricians missed his cerebral palsy. They totally brushed off the fact that he has clonus! I had no idea what clonus was until DS was ten and received a late diagnosis of cp. Now that I do, I am pissed that his two pediatricians saw it but didn't know enough to refer us on to a neurologist when DS was younger. I no longer trust pediatricians or the concept of well child exams or physicals.

 

Agreed.  Even several issues I've brought to the doctors' attention have remained undiagnosed and untreated by the MDs.  I can't think of one single thing that got fixed as a result of an MD well visit.  Usually the doc doesn't even look at the kid long enough to make eye contact.  If they do have any observations, they are along the lines of "good language development" / "might have flat feet" but with no follow-up. 

 

Then I get a generic printout that reminds me to feed my kids but don't let them get fat.  I remember the one I got when they were in 1st grade (we were there because the school said they were due for a shot).  The printout said, "here are the things you should consider when deciding if your kid is ready for Kindergarten."

 

What really stinks is that the insurance doesn't let you use the "included" annual wellness visit for a sick visit instead.  Making it that much more likely that a person on a tight budget doesn't go to the doctor when it does make sense.

[SparklyUnicorn]

So - I just did I quick bit of reaseach, and the reason most counties don't seem to have annual physicals is that the research says they don't improve health outcomes, aren't cost effective, and tend to create false positives.

 

I believe it.

 

For the kids it's mostly about the vaccines. 

 

Adults I can see it for checking in periodically if you aren't being followed for any sort of health condition.  But definitely not every year.

[SparklyUnicorn]

I think "all our private personal data" is incredibly hyperbolic.Who is asking for anything remotely like that?  This is more like: getting a car inspection.  I keep my car current for safety. I am responsible. Everyone I know is really responsible in that area, as well.  I don't like having to pay for annual inspections just because some people try to get away with driving cars without working headlights / functional brakes... but I see the necessity. I think most people do.

 

I am sure that annual requirements for kids would be much, much less stringent than annual car inspections, as well.  i live in a "high regulation" homeschooling state and my requirement include:

 

1. Send a letter at the beginning of the year notifying the school I am homeschooling. The school id legally obligated to accept my decision so long as I copy / paste the right words onto the paper. The school provides the words to copy / paste on their website.  If I fail to copy/paste the right words, they contact me to clarify. If I still don't get it, there are advocacy groups that will assist me. I could name 3 right now.

2. Send a letter at the end of the year incidating we've made progress in our goals as outlined in letter 1. The consequence for not sending this letter is, I get a call requesting it.

 

This is the horror of high regulation for homeschooling.

 

The woman who abused that poor child is "believed to be a homeschooler" which--- I don't know what the rules are in her state, or what they were 15+ years ago when she would have started. I don't know if laws would have made a difference. But I don't believe that treating her as not one of us serves anyone.

 

You call this high reg though?  Our regs are much much much more invasive and annoying. 

[Matryoshka]

You call this high reg though?  Our regs are much much much more invasive and annoying. 

 

Yeah, NY totally wins that one.  I still don't understand how MA regs (I think Poppy lives here too?) are 'high reg', no matter how HSLDA wants to spin it...  they really aren't all that intrusive.

 

PA sounds awful too.

[ktgrok]

My niece's flat head was caught at a well child visit. Because it was caught early it was very fixable with some lifestyle changes. 

 

That said, I don't think the requirements for homeschooling, like portfolios, etc, will prevent abuse. BUT...they will distinguish between homeschoolers and those who do this stuff.

 

Basically, it offers a protection to homeschoolers, in my opinion. 

[boscopup]

Wow, long thread...

 

Re Alabama homeschool laws... You have a huge number of cover schools to choose from. I purposely chose one that only requires reporting attendance yearly. There are cover schools that have very stringent requirements, including monthly progress reports. That would completely kill me. 😂 But it is your choice what type of cover school you use. I know of one that doesn't require attendance, as they assume 365 days of "attendance". Most cover schools don't require testing, though some do. One of my kids has done a standardized test 3 years ago. I found it didn't tell me anything I didn't know already, and the scores themselves were utterly useless. Goodness, the kid scored very high in spelling, and you should see his writing! [emoji14]

 

The law was recently changed to allow homeschoolers to be considered private schools without registering with a cover school, but when I read about it, it looked like you'd have to jump through more hoops (weekly attendance reporting, following the state PE curriculum taught by a certified PE teacher), so I don't think it would be a method someone would use to hide abuse. I imagine they'd just never register in the first place. If they moved, they could probably hide a kid. If you never enrolled your kid in the first place, it would be easy to just keep not enrolling. This kid was adopted though, so he should have been in the system. I think even with more stringent homeschool rules, this kid could have still been kept in a basement. How hard is it to forge a standardized test or a portfolio?

 

Re annual physicals for children... My kids' doctor sees them yearly from age 2 to 6 or 7 (I forget),then every 2 years after that. Public schools here don't require doctor visits, but they do require vaccinations. I think physicals are required for school sports, but my sons' non-school hockey league does not require physicals.

 

I would take issue with any requirement of an annual doctor visit for homeschooled children that they (or their insurance) has to pay for. Alabama does not have the expanded Medicaid/Medicare benefits, so there are likely kids who don't have insurance or whose parents are barely making ends meet to pay for a $1000+/month plan with a ridiculously high deductible and high co-pays, and if they have multiple children, it could really add up and affect their ability to put food on the table. And frankly, Alabama can't afford to give free well child visits to homeschoolers. They also probably can't afford to police extra regulations on homeschoolers.

 

Anyway, I don't think this story really has anything to do with homeschooling. You could have more easily said this would lead to stricter laws on adoptions.

 

Sent from my SM-G900T using Tapatalk

[Scarlett]

I truly think that a portfolio is just so much more accurate for every child. I have said to the local school board on numerous occasions that the best way to decide if a child should be promoted to the next grade is let the principal and a team of teachers look at a portfolio of work. Don't send it all home. Keep a variety of papers and kinds of assignments from every core subject for each student. Send it home at the end of the year after the decision has been made. Tests don't show the whole picture. It is also a much kinder method for kiddoes with LD's that make timed testing really nerve wrecking.

 

It is what I'd be in favor of here. You file an affidavit, and at the end of the year you produce the portfolio. No it won't end abuse by any stretch. But it would then put someone in place to question what is going on, and if something needed to be done, maybe a little teeth to it. For those on the fence of whether or not they are really capable of home education it might tip the scales, or make those that really care but are having a hard time either dig deeper or take a semester off and enroll while figuring things out.The worst cases will continue to be the worst cases for certain. The key is that in Michigan there just isn't anything currently to do about it. The resource allocation isn't there. The foster care system is bizarrely under funded, the family court system underfunded, the number of cases per social worker so over the top it is crazy! That means that kids are just simply at higher risk across the board. It has nothing to do with homeschooling per se. It has everything to do with my state, in general, NOT caring about kids but acting like they do. Sigh...and we've dropped to 41st out 50 in the nation educationally. Whoo hoo...Michigan! :cursing:

 

Also, in terms of reputation, Michigan as a homeschool community has a pretty good one. This is because the homeschooling parents who are serious about what they are doing have a pretty good track record of their kids going to college or passing board exams for professional licenses. On paper, that makes it look great. Self selection. If you ask my kids' college profs, they will tell you they love homeschooling, they think it is wonderful, more people should be doing it! Why? Because the only homeschoolers they know are the ones that had the stats and accomplishments to get into U of MI, WMU, Michigan Tech, to be their paramedics, practical nurses, plumbing repair guy, transmission expert, etc. They aren't meeting the ones that can't write a coherent sentence, or multiple 105 and 97. And again, I have no expectation of that level of skill from kids with LD's, and especially certain types of LD's. In the best of PS systems with the best of special ed programs, they might not be able to achieve that. I am referring here to neurotypical students.

 

GAH! And none of this is easy to flesh out. None of it. And as always, much of it also comes down to religious rights too.

 

Technically in Michigan the only exemption to compulsory attendance laws is religion. Otherwise the parent is supposed to have a teaching license. In that respect, on paper, it is a restrictive statute. But no one checks. I know people who have ZERO religious affiliation who are homeschooling and without license. Illegal? Yes. Is anybody checking? Nope, nope, nope, nope, nope...

 

In terms of that particular issue, I have problems because there should be more than just a religious exemption, and because of the way it is worded, it does make it kind of ripe for religious abuse, "OH my church preaches that my children shouldn't have much schoolin' or girls shouldn't get a high school education or...." and then what do you do if you've written it up as an religious rights law instead of an educational rights law??? Not good.

 

I need chocolate! LOL

Is it true that MI has charter schools where unlicensed and uneducated teachers are teaching?

[luuknam]

What really stinks is that the insurance doesn't let you use the "included" annual wellness visit for a sick visit instead.  Making it that much more likely that a person on a tight budget doesn't go to the doctor when it does make sense.

 

I'm not sure if our insurance technically does or doesn't, but my doctor does. It does mean you'll have to sit and let him check all the well-visit boxes while you're there because you're ill, which isn't ideal, but at least he does let me do a 2-in-1.

[boscopup]

I'm not sure if our insurance technically does or doesn't, but my doctor does. It does mean you'll have to sit and let him check all the well-visit boxes while you're there because you're ill, which isn't ideal, but at least he does let me do a 2-in-1.

The insurance companies require that you pay a copay if your well visit turns out to be a sick visit. Your doctor might be working that under the table a bit but could get in trouble if the insurance company found out.

 

We have to sign a form saying we know that this is a well visit and that anything that turns it into a sick visit will cause a copay to be charged.

[lauraw4321]

My point is and was: this is the kind of occurrence that will lead to the demise of homeschooling. People will become increasingly convinced that there is a link between HS and abuse because of cases like these and will insist the government do something about it.

 

Of course this woman wasn't HS her child. But people will (rightly) say that it's easier to hide abuse when a kid never steps foot in a school. If the HS community doesn't address this potential for abuse, the government will.

[Guest]

If the HS community doesn't address this potential for abuse, the government will.

By what means?

[maize]

I'm also thinking that most states do not mandate school attendance before age six or older; when abuse of infants and young children occurs, is it somehow the fault of them not being in school?

[Guest]

Well how about domestic abuse? This is a problem of truly (not exaggerated) epidemic proportions. Still, say someone came along and said we need a someone to lay eyes on every woman every year, and ask every man a few leading questions every year... We know most men don't raise their hands to their wives, but just in case...

 

This is what people mean we say it would put an undue burden on the innocent.

 

So you realize how many people live in the us? How few homeschoolers there are, even if you DO include people that lock kids in closets and absurdly name it homeschooling.

 

We don't all know each other!

 

Furthermore, have you ever tried to report actual children abuse or domestic violence (which is, again, a true epidemic,all that mandated public school notwithstanding)..... Have you ever been in that quagmire of a toothless, ridiculous segment of our justice system? The part that's supposed to protect the weak? I ask because I have yet to meet anyone who says a family Court judge protected them and helped make them safer. But I can name two dozen ppl off the top of my head who were more unsafe...whose lives became more unstable after the interventions of the government. And I don't know many people!! [Nor will I accept any accusations of wanting to get rid of the system because I can criticize it from irl experience. I do not]

 

My point is... Show me a way forward that my conscience can abide AND will make a real difference to folks that are hurting, and it has my full support fwiw. Tell me to "start taking care of this before the government does" and...??????????????????? Tell me to accept unnecessary, bothersome meddling in my Homeschool that makes it more difficult to school the way I feel very strongly about educating, when it's clear to me that this has nothing at all to do with abuse and: nah.

[SparklyUnicorn]

By what means?

 

And what community?  As if we are all one giant close knit group.  The people here are pretty much the only homeschoolers I talk to on any sort of regular basis. 

[SparklyUnicorn]

I'm also thinking that most states do not mandate school attendance before age six or older; when abuse of infants and young children occurs, is it somehow the fault of them not being in school?

 

The solution is obvious.  As soon as a baby is born the baby becomes the property of the state.  We wheel him out of the hospital right to his school for safe keeping.  We can possibly allow the parents some minimal visitation time, but of course under strict supervision.

 

And we know this can't go wrong because abuse never happens in schools.  Everyone knows that.

[SparklyUnicorn]

In that case, shall we end the foster care system because there are bad foster parents out there?

 

That and we need to end the institution of parenting.  Parents can't be trusted to parent because some of them screw it up.  Since we know some of them screw it up badly, we need to assume that most of them are doing that.  End parenting as we know it, and the problem is solved.

[SparklyUnicorn]

And I'm kidding.  In case that isn't clear.