When HS is outlawed

[Crimson Wife]

Requiring children to see a real MD would also help reduce the tragedies where well-intentioned-but-misguided parents rely solely on faith healing (rather than using prayer alongside proper medical care) and their child dies of something preventable/easily treatable.

[SparklyUnicorn]

And no I don't think it is neglectful to not get a yearly physical. Most kids do fine without one and that is setting an awfully high bar for neglect.

 

I'm pretty sure they don't require them every single year here unless one is in sports.  The sports physicals are even less thorough though (at least going by what they charge for them...much less).

[HomeAgain]

We have back to school clinics here for K-12.  The kids bring in their health forms and all go through a basic, routine physical where they go around the clinic to various stations (height, weight, eyes, ears, blood pressure, etc. until they go to a main doc to sign off on it all). It's absolutely wonderful, and only about $30 for those who are paying cash.

 

I'd pay the $30 if we have to.  It's a small fee that already means my kid can participate in sports, scouts, and camps, plus if he needs to, hand it into a school.

[SparklyUnicorn]

I looked it up.  A physical is required for students entering grades: 2, 4, 7, and 10.  Add one in for K.  Nowhere near every year.

 

 

 

[Meriwether]

I live in a University community where most people really value education. My experience with homeschoolers is that the majority of the people I meet are doing a very good job. The children are college ready or, if they enter the public high school, they graduate at the top of the class. The longer I've been homeschooling though, the more examples I've seen of poor homeschooling. One woman I talked to last month told me her friend asked her how homeschooling was going and she replied, "Oh, we don't get around to doing too much schooling." Fortunately, her kids are all very young and are still at an age where they can learn a lot through play. 

I don't get around to doing much school with my six year old. Last year, we did something with school an average of about two times per week. This year we are doing better with math, doing it an average of four times per week. It isn't ideal, but it isn't as awful as it sounds. She is close to finishing Saxon 2. She can read American Girl books. She knows more history than the average six year old and I'd say her general knowledge is at least typical. I have lots of things I'd like to do with her, but between the older kids and the toddler she falls through the cracks a lot. Eventually, that will have to change, but for now, we are making do. If someone heard that I was spending 2 hours a week doing school with her last year, they would probably assume neglect, but I doubt she'd be much, if any, farther along in public school.

[MaeFlowers]

I also witness extreme neglect in my state. I don't know if regulations would help or not except that if there was punishment of some kind and there was actual personnel to do the enforcing, then maybe. 

 

The homeschool statute states a core set of subjects that must be covered each year. But without registration, testing, portfolio review, or really any means of accountability going off grid and doing NOTHING is easy here, and it happens far more than people want to admit.

 

I turned in a family in my parents' church for educational neglect. It only took being turned in FIVE TIMES (others turned them in so not just me over and over) for anyone to finally put some fire under their feet. Their oldest was ten and couldn't count past 20, could not read a simple sentence, did not know how to spell his first name. The children were being raised like feral cats. Not an exaggeration either. The mother was "homeschooled' after a fashion herself by admission formally through 6th grade with another two years of English and History ACE paces provided (no math, science, or other) but she didn't complete them all after that because she was busy growing and selling flowers. That sounds nice...oh she had a business she must have learned so much. Not really. Small number of flowers, cash under the table, no accounting. She readily admits she would never be able to  pass the GED.

 

On threat of losing temporary custody of the kids while they took parenting classes and the kids were enrolled in PS, she opted for putting them into a private school. They are bizarrely behind, but hopefully can catch up. However, it is very hard to go from feral to structured so the oldest is having adjustment problems and is found sneaking off campus regularly causing the neighbors of the school to be quite perturbed which isn't helping this young man out because he is starting life with a bad reputation. Sigh.....

 

The thing is if people who knew them hadn't blown the whistle, this would never have been caught because there isn't any teeth, any enforcement in Michigan. The mom doesn't believe much in "doctoring" either so it isn't as though some medical professional was likely to figure it out and turn them in.

 

I hate standardized testing so I would be all for portfolio review, and not necessarily by local PS teachers either. Could be private teachers, could be college professors, could be a child developmental specialist. I'd be happy if there was a very large, robust list of options for parents. Yes, they could go out of their way to manufacture "work", trying to make it look like a child's handwriting. But if the portfolio review included the child meeting with the reviewer, writing his or her name or some letters on paper to establish a basic handwriting style, I do think this would be a deterrent. The bottom line is that the above mom is quite simply lazy. Lazy, period. She didn't want to wake the kids up for school, was unmotivated to actually teach and lesson plan herself, unwilling to enroll in k-12 online because that would mean making them log into the computer and do work or be reported, etc. She wasn't willing to lose custody, most certainly wasn't going to take a parenting class - her husband is just as lazy of a parent - and she openly admitted they chose to pay tuition at the private school because they could hire the neighbor to drive the kid so didn't have to get up early for the bus or do any driving themselves.

 

Boxed curriculum is easy to implement. Paces, Lifepacs, CLE cover the education basics described in Michigan law. So without tremendous amounts of planning and effort on the part of the parent, they can provide what is necessary, and completed workbooks turned in for portfolio showing grading marks and unit tests could certainly satisfy the requirements. I don't think that is an undo burden. A once a year portfolio review is a heck of a lot less work than 13 years of waking kids up for the bus, signing homework slips, permission slips, filling out paperwork, sending in updated immunizations records, dealing with bureaucracy every day.  My local PS may be crappy, but they do cover the basics and kids do actual work. One would be hard pressed to find a neurotypical kid at the local PS who couldn't produce a significant portfolio of grade level or close to grade level work. In middle school and high school would that work meet my personal standards? NOPE! But the state law should not be asking homeschoolers to meet a higher standard, however they should be able to make them meet some basic threshold that shows an attempt at education is being made.

 

For abuse? I doubt that if she'd been doing horrific physical things to them having to register as a homeschooler and provide a portfolio would have stopped it. However, if turned in for that kind of horror, I can say with confidence it might have taken a long time for an investigation to take place. Our state cut WAY back on the number of social workers and police officers we have for investigating these complaints. WAY back. Our foster care system was cut too so it isn't like the state is looking to remove kids from their homes because they have no where to put them. It is really bad here! So part of having teeth and enforcing the laws we already have is providing the resources to getting the job done which isn't happening. 

 

So Michigan has some big issues. There is no teeth at all in the homeschooling statute, and no resources to really get a handle on abuse allegations and investigations. it makes for a bad situation for children.

 

In GA, there is no accountability either. All we have is a letter of intent. I'm not sure how that does anything other than help the state keep stats. I wish that would change.

 

I know a family that claims to homeschool. I feel so saddened by their lack of education. On top of the fact that they don't receive an education, they are fed conspiracy theories and believe a lot of whack-a-doodle things. They seem to be healthy, well fed kids but I don't think they have ever seen a doctor or a dentist. So, what should I do? Should I report them? How much am I required to do? Am I sticking my nose where it doesn't belong if I report them? Will anything be done if I do? It seems to me that if there was some oversight, I (and others) wouldn't be put in this conundrum. Plus, would it not save the state workers time if they didn't have to answer these sorts of calls?

 

 

[Bluegoat]

I'm sorry, but the American Academy of Pediatrics recommends a well-child physical annually. Parents who do not do so are being neglectful IMHO. Most children are healthy but plenty of serious health issues are caught at routine well-child exams.

 

I don't live in the uS, and don't care what the AAP thinks.

 

Kids here have regular visits, for shots plus checks, pretty much on the Canadian vaccine scedual until they are five.  After that, they come if they are sick, or possibly to get flu shots if desired and they don't get them somewhere else.  The teenage shots are at school.

 

Adults don't typically get yearly physicals here either, and they aren't considered all that useful.

[TravelingChris]

But since Al doesn't really have homeschools, the issue of how to regulate homeschoolers here is irrelevant.  Yes, there are church schools that have no need of physical contact at all. But that goes into a regulation of how church schools are managed and regulated.  There is a general problem with some church schools here in Alabama that has nothing to do with homeschooling.  SInce anybody can set up a church and there are a lot less regulations for how churches are monitored for such things as health and safety due to concerns about the first amendment, some people have founded so-called churches with the intent of providing daycare.  Then they have little regulation and less oversight and some of those day cares have been appalling.  I don't know of any in my area but heard that there was a bad operator of day cares in the southern part of the state.  

 

Abuse is horrible but even if one required yearly checkups at the doctor, someone moves and is off the radar. It is really hard to catch people who move and then imprison someone who was in their household.  People wouldn't know these people were even there.  Plus this kid was seen by his brother and his brother's new family at least very briefly and they didn't catch that he was in such a bad condition.

[Bluegoat]

I don't get around to doing much school with my six year old. Last year, we did something with school an average of about two times per week. This year we are doing better with math, doing it an average of four times per week. It isn't ideal, but it isn't as awful as it sounds. She is close to finishing Saxon 2. She can read American Girl books. She knows more history than the average six year old and I'd say her general knowledge is at least typical. I have lots of things I'd like to do with her, but between the older kids and the toddler she falls through the cracks a lot. Eventually, that will have to change, but for now, we are making do. If someone heard that I was spending 2 hours a week doing school with her last year, they would probably assume neglect, but I doubt she'd be much, if any, farther along in public school.

 

I didn't spend that much time with my kids at that age doing school.

 

We've never felt pressured in that way.

 

My dd11 started grade 6 this year, and in her report card had one B in math, and the rest As.  THe math mark was mostly because of a bad unit, nothing about her.

 

I don't think kids under about 8 need a ton of work.  Reading and writing (the physical act and mechanics) and basic math.  The rest is life for many people - time outside, fun and interesting books, art and music.

[maize]

Personally I favor incentives and supports to encourage good education for all children. I live in a state with low regulation for homeschool but with lots of options for public school support--and the majority of home educating families I know take advantage of those at some point or other. They range from charter school options that are either entirely distance education or provide 1-3 days of on site classes, along with funding for curriculum and extracurriculars, special education services, and individualized tutoring--in exchange of course for regular reporting, possible work samples, and state testing, to partial enrollment in public school at any level from kindergarten to high school, as much or as little as the parents/student want (i.e., 1 class, 5 classes, etc.) to access to sports and other extracurriculars for all homeschoolers. Families get support and services in exchange for accountability. Nobody has to participate, but most families really do want the best for their kids and are happy to take advantage of available options.

 

I think a state tax credit could work similarly--in exchange for the family meeting certain education and reporting criteria. 

[Loowit]

I'm trying to figure out which serious health issues those are because my doctor doesn't test for any health issues.  He has never done blood work.  He has never checked a urine sample.  He taps their knee.  So maybe if there is some associated problem with that he's checking it.

 

My middle was found to have a congenital heart defect at his one year well check.  Not life threatening, but it was serious enough that it needed to be fixed.  My youngest was found to have undescended testicles at his well check a few years ago.  Previously they had been descended.  This is, again, not life threatening but it could be life altering leading to fertility issues later in life.  Having gone through infertility myself, I would like to do what I can to avoid that for my children.

 

The kids doctor does run blood and urine tests, not every year, but they have set years that they check for certain things.  So all of my kids have been lead tested, tested for anemia, and at some point they all had their cholesterol checked.

 

We need to do annual check up, though I would anyway, because my kids all go to overnight camps and they required a doctor to sign off on them if it is beyond 72 hours stay at camp.

[Guest]

I'm sorry, but the American Academy of Pediatrics recommends a well-child physical annually. Parents who do not do so are being neglectful IMHO. Most children are healthy but plenty of serious health issues are caught at routine well-child exams.

Oh please. Neglect?? Hardly.

[FaithManor]

Amen! I see it here IRL, in no reg state, all the stinking time. In fact, I am at risk now of losing a very good friend over the issue. "Oh, I can catch him up if I buckle down," after she has done nothing for at least five years that I know of.

Yes, that excuse is used a lot. And while it is true that in the young years, they can catch up fairly quickly if the parent buckles down, the problem is that the buckling down part often doesn't happen. It gets put off year after year until that child is middle school aged. Suddenly it is we need to go from basic arithmetic to algebra ready in a year or two, from barely reading to high school textbook ready in that time, to doesn't know a subject from a predicate to writing outlines and prepping for solid essay writing, to....

 

And it doesn't happen. The buckle down when it does often times doesn't get the student up to even passing the GED standard much less the minimum state requirements for high school graduation. 

 

So I don't like to see that kind of advice given out. It is one thing to say, take the time off for your surgery and make it up in the summer, it is quite another to say "take a year or two off school" it will sort itself out. It usually doesn't. It just snowballs even with the best of parents. I would rather see people make suggestions of online schools that can be used for an extended period if the parent is adamant about B&M school. We shouldn't encourage one another to simply drop out of schooling for a long period while maintaining that it is "home schooling". It isn't. It is non-schooling and that is not good in the long term.

 

I firmly believe that a parent's right to his or her child does not extend so far as to totally trample that child's rights as a new adult. Refusing to give the child an opportunity to get an education commensurate with his/her abilities is morally wrong because it is a HUGE impediment to the child as an adult.

 

But again, I am not certain how much it would change with regulations. For a few parents, on the edge of whether or not to enroll a child in school vs. keep them home, it might encourage them to either truly commit to home education or enroll. However, I think for those determined to use "homeschooling" as an excuse to go underground and not do anything, it won't help, and it certainly won't stop other kinds of abuse. What the regs would do is give a little teeth to punishment after the fact. I want to see abuser punished, big time. But, in terms of educational neglect, the punishment of he parent doesn't solve the student/young adult's problem of needing an education. It might though put some resources forward that the student did not know about in order to get started. Many of these kids who were off grid, not educated, don't know what their options are. Having a social worker or educational specialist work with that student once the parent is in trouble with the law might at least be one good that could come from "the teeth".

[SparklyUnicorn]

But since Al doesn't really have homeschools, the issue of how to regulate homeschoolers here is irrelevant.  Yes, there are church schools that have no need of physical contact at all. But that goes into a regulation of how church schools are managed and regulated.  There is a general problem with some church schools here in Alabama that has nothing to do with homeschooling.  SInce anybody can set up a church and there are a lot less regulations for how churches are monitored for such things as health and safety due to concerns about the first amendment, some people have founded so-called churches with the intent of providing daycare.  Then they have little regulation and less oversight and some of those day cares have been appalling.  I don't know of any in my area but heard that there was a bad operator of day cares in the southern part of the state.  

 

Abuse is horrible but even if one required yearly checkups at the doctor, someone moves and is off the radar. It is really hard to catch people who move and then imprison someone who was in their household.  People wouldn't know these people were even there.  Plus this kid was seen by his brother and his brother's new family at least very briefly and they didn't catch that he was in such a bad condition.

 

Yes, abuse is often missed in children who attend school regularly. 

 

It wouldn't be that difficult for someone to simply never report their child to a school even if their state requires that.  I have to report here where I live and send in all kinds of pointless paperwork.  The average person has no clue how that even works or that I have to do that. 

[Bluegoat]

Yes, that excuse is used a lot. And while it is true that in the young years, they can catch up fairly quickly if the parent buckles down, the problem is that the buckling down part often doesn't happen. It gets put off year after year until that child is middle school aged. Suddenly it is we need to go from basic arithmetic to algebra ready in a year or two, from barely reading to high school textbook ready in that time, to doesn't know a subject from a predicate to writing outlines and prepping for solid essay writing, to....

 

And it doesn't happen. The buckle down when it does often times doesn't get the student up to even passing the GED standard much less the minimum state requirements for high school graduation. 

 

So I don't like to see that kind of advice given out. It is one thing to say, take the time off for your surgery and make it up in the summer, it is quite another to say "take a year or two off school" it will sort itself out. It usually doesn't. It just snowballs even with the best of parents. I would rather see people make suggestions of online schools that can be used for an extended period if the parent is adamant about B&M school. We shouldn't encourage one another to simply drop out of schooling for a long period while maintaining that it is "home schooling". It isn't. It is non-schooling and that is not good in the long term.

 

I firmly believe that a parent's right to his or her child does not extend so far as to totally trample that child's rights as a new adult. Refusing to give the child an opportunity to get an education commensurate with his/her abilities is morally wrong because it is a HUGE impediment to the child as an adult.

 

But again, I am not certain how much it would change with regulations. For a few parents, on the edge of whether or not to enroll a child in school vs. keep them home, it might encourage them to either truly commit to home education or enroll. However, I think for those determined to use "homeschooling" as an excuse to go underground and not do anything, it won't help, and it certainly won't stop other kinds of abuse. What the regs would do is give a little teeth to punishment after the fact. I want to see abuser punished, big time. But, in terms of educational neglect, the punishment of he parent doesn't solve the student/young adult's problem of needing an education. It might though put some resources forward that the student did not know about in order to get started. Many of these kids who were off grid, not educated, don't know what their options are. Having a social worker or educational specialist work with that student once the parent is in trouble with the law might at least be one good that could come from "the teeth".

 

I do think there is a difference between being low-key at young ages, or emergency situations, and not getting to it - maybe even not thinking about it.

 

Although I do think when kids are withdrawn from school because of problems with it, often the advice to de-school for a while is good. 

[SparklyUnicorn]

My middle was found to have a congenital heart defect at his one year well check.  Not life threatening, but it was serious enough that it needed to be fixed.  My youngest was found to have undescended testicles at his well check a few years ago.  Previously they had been descended.  This is, again, not life threatening but it could be life altering leading to fertility issues later in life.  Having gone through infertility myself, I would like to do what I can to avoid that for my children.

 

The kids doctor does run blood and urine tests, not every year, but they have set years that they check for certain things.  So all of my kids have been lead tested, tested for anemia, and at some point they all had their cholesterol checked.

 

We need to do annual check up, though I would anyway, because my kids all go to overnight camps and they required a doctor to sign off on them if it is beyond 72 hours stay at camp.

 

Ok he does check those two things.  He has never checked anything else though.  No blood..no urine.  I find that rather odd.

[Bluegoat]

Those are all things in the early years though.

[Schadenfreude]

In GA, there is no accountability either. All we have is a letter of intent. I'm not sure how that does anything other than help the state keep stats. I wish that would change.

 

In Ga you are required to submit a letter of intent, keep track of daily attendance, and keep a portfolio for every year. The portfolio and attendance must be kept for 3 years and there are certain subject areas you are required to teach and a day is required to contain a certain amount of hours. These things are never checked unless someone reports you or you are going through a custody issue. If you cannot produce the required documents when asked then you will be referred to truency court and your children will be compelled to go to public school. I have seen this happen to a few families here.

[FaithManor]

I don't know that I'd call lack of a well child visit neglect. But, I think it ought to be strongly encouraged during the baby - elementary years. Many of the children in Flint who fell through the cracks, years of teachers trying to figure out what was going on, would have been well served by a blood draw long before now. Seriously, given what we know about lead, given that it has come out that in the Midwest where manufacturing was a strong hold for a lot of years and chemical dumping was the norm, lead and heavy metal testing should almost be a requirement, hate to say it.

 

Sigh...

 

This world we live in......

 

And if we would embrace some concept of universal healthcare, we might be able to catch these things sooner because right now many parents have to pay $20-100 co pay or worse for a well child visit. A lot of people fall into that crack of not having it paid for by medicaid, and not having it fully covered or even partially covered by insurance. So making something like this a universally paid for item might help many children. Make blood testing every so many years also free. The pay off in terms of human life saved and tax dollars for future issues could be enormous. Some of what is happening in Flint is just gut wrenching, and it could have been stopped sooner if there was better health care access. Well, that and NOT HAVING A CORRUPT CITY AND STATE GOVERNMENT!  :smash:  :smash:  :smash:

 

So I wouldn't want to see parents punished for not getting them. What I'd like to see is that it is so easy and so cheap to get them that the incentive is pretty big so a much larger percentage of children in their primary years get them, and i'd like to see them include hair or blood testing for toxins.It doesn't always have to be blood work which is of course scary to the child. Hair can be tested for many things as well as skin.

[HomeAgain]

I think the important thing about the doctor is that he/she is a mandated reporter.  It is one of the few people my youngest child sees regularly who is.  His violin teacher is not.  His librarian is not. Our state park ranger and art museum docents are not.  His activities director was, but we don't do that activity anymore.  I am in favor of making sure all kids come in contact with a mandated reporter - but I'm also in favor of revamping our social services system so kids don't fall through the cracks.

[Bluegoat]

I don't know - do kids go for yearly checks past pre-school in any places other than the US?  And do they get urine tests and blood tests as a matter of course when they do go? 

 

They test blood on newborns here, but not generally after that.

 

More testing doesn't necessarily help prevent problems.

 

This seems to me like it might be related to the way you fund things.

[SKL]

Didn't watch the video. But I wonder why it is homeschooling that is the issue. Why not adoption.

 

I think the idea is that kids who aren't homeschooled are harder to severely abuse/neglect.  If they have to get out of the house, someone will notice if they are bruised, wasting away, etc. and they have the chance to tell what's happening at home.

 

To your comment about adoption, this was a child adopted out of foster care because his mother wasn't doing such a great job either.  The kid was dealt a raw deal on the bio parent side, then moved from foster home to foster home (not abused, but foster homes can be abusive) and finally adopted.  Obviously there are many adoptive parents that are better than some bio parents.

 

I would be in favor of requiring follow-up visits for adopted kids.  I don't know if that was happening with this kid or not.  Even with home visits, not all hidden abuses are caught, unfortunately.

 

Another issue is that kids with a similar history are likely to have a difficult time living in a family.  Adoptive families need more support so that problems are dealt with before the parents are overwhelmed and turn to extreme measures.  Not saying the parents in this case have an excuse, but the kids might have had a better life if that was done.

[SparklyUnicorn]

I don't know - do kids go for yearly checks past pre-school in any places other than the US?  And do they get urine tests and blood tests as a matter of course when they do go? 

 

They test blood on newborns here, but not generally after that.

 

More testing doesn't necessarily help prevent problems.

 

This seems to me like it might be related to the way you fund things.

 

Probably not.

 

It's like eye exams.  In other countries it is good enough to get a prescription checked every other year (or less).  Here they require it yearly. No reason that I can fathom except to charge more money.

 

Testing is as good as treatment in some people's minds.  They make a huge stink about it.  Woe to the person that finds a problem.  The care and concern stops at testing.  If you have a problem...you are on your own to pay for it.

[FaithManor]

I don't know - do kids go for yearly checks past pre-school in any places other than the US?  And do they get urine tests and blood tests as a matter of course when they do go? 

 

They test blood on newborns here, but not generally after that.

 

More testing doesn't necessarily help prevent problems.

 

This seems to me like it might be related to the way you fund things.

Where my sister is in France, yes kids do get more evaluations because they believe in preventative medicine. But they also test water supplies and paint and what not. This is country with buildings that are more than a thousand years old so they know they have issues, and the number of wars fought on their soil is insane so with all of that warfare, comes chemical issues as well. They are a lot more proactive about this stuff. A lot more. But they have universal healthcare and some where along the way they decided that for every dollar spent on preventative medicine it saved about $17.00 in long term treatment for undiagnosed problems that become huge. So what is offered is more comprehensive, and it is fairly easy to access. Sis said that the docs and clinics that provide these services have very flexible hours, easy access by public transportation, and labs right around the corner. It is a bit of a coordinated effort, and if there needs to be something done with food, water, paint, soil toxins, whatever, that is taxpayer funded not homeowner or landlord funded unless the landlord caused it. In that case, I do think the landlord can be on the hook for the bill.

 

It is a different system which is why yes, the additional visits and testing does help. It can't prevent a problem necessarily, but it can very much prevent a small problem now from becoming a crisis later.

[Tanaqui]

I would be in favor of requiring ALL parents to have their children undergo a physical (by a licensed MD or physician assistant/nurse practitioner working under a MD) and a dental checkup annually. Not treating one class of parents as inherently suspect because their children are homeschooled. Remember that the FLDS did not homeschool their kids but operated their own private schools.

 

I completely agree, 100%. Here we don't have the FLDS, but we do have our own dubious private schools which don't educate and where the communities that send their kids there almost never report abuse to the proper authorities.

 

It's like eye exams.  In other countries it is good enough to get a prescription checked every other year (or less).  Here they require it yearly. No reason that I can fathom except to charge more money.

 

I asked my optometrist about this at my last checkup. He told me that the main reason is to check for glaucoma. For many people, the first sign of glaucoma is losing their vision - and then you don't get it back.

 

Mind, I didn't need to be convinced on eye exams, just on why I had to have the glaucoma test yearly. (He doesn't do the drops anymore, so I wasn't complaining!) From the time I was 6 until the time I was 20, my prescription changed severely every single year, to the point where my old glasses were pretty much useless - but I didn't know how badly my vision had deteriorated until I had my new glasses on my face.

 

Edited December 8, 2016 by Tanaqui

[regentrude]

I don't know - do kids go for yearly checks past pre-school in any places other than the US?  And do they get urine tests and blood tests as a matter of course when they do go? 

They test blood on newborns here, but not generally after that.

More testing doesn't necessarily help prevent problems.

 

In Germany, there is a recommended sequence of eleven well child examinations. High frequency in the baby years, less frequently afterwards. #1-6 during the first year, then at age 2, 4, 5 (before school); 7-8, 9-10, 12/14, 16-17.

 

Blood and urine tests are not routinely done after the newborn screening.

[Bluegoat]

Where my sister is in France, yes kids do get more evaluations because they believe in preventative medicine. But they also test water supplies and paint and what not. This is country with buildings that are more than a thousand years old so they know they have issues, and the number of wars fought on their soil is insane so with all of that warfare, comes chemical issues as well. They are a lot more proactive about this stuff. A lot more. But they have universal healthcare and some where along the way they decided that for every dollar spent on preventative medicine it saved about $17.00 in long term treatment for undiagnosed problems that become huge. So what is offered is more comprehensive, and it is fairly easy to access. Sis said that the docs and clinics that provide these services have very flexible hours, easy access by public transportation, and labs right around the corner. It is a bit of a coordinated effort, and if there needs to be something done with food, water, paint, soil toxins, whatever, that is taxpayer funded not homeowner or landlord funded unless the landlord caused it. In that case, I do think the landlord can be on the hook for the bill.

 

It is a different system which is why yes, the additional visits and testing does help. It can't prevent a problem necessarily, but it can very much prevent a small problem now from becoming a crisis later.

 

Well, we also believe in preventative healthcare. 

 

But we don't send schoolkids or adults to the doctor every year.  They go if there is a reason to go. 

[Bluegoat]

In Germany, there is a recommended sequence of eleven well child examinations. High frequency in the baby years, less frequently afterwards. #1-6 during the first year, then at age 2, 4, 5 (before school); 7-8, 9-10, 12/14, 16-17.

 

Blood and urine tests are not routinely done after the newborn screening.

 

This seems closer to what we do.

 

Infants go more often, and once a year till 3.  There are no shots at 4, so they go again at 5.

 

After that, it's as needed.  But most kids do go in from time to time, because they get sick of have an accident, or maybe to get a flu shot.

 

And of course people can have an appointment whenever they want.

[SKL]

I would be in favor of requiring ALL parents to have their children undergo a physical (by a licensed MD or physician assistant/nurse practitioner working under a MD) and a dental checkup annually. Not treating one class of parents as inherently suspect because their children are homeschooled. Remember that the FLDS did not homeschool their kids but operated their own private schools.

 

I would be in favor of some health professional OR educational professional seeing each child periodically, but I'm not sure I'd go to the extent you suggest.  My family does not see MDs unless there is a specific need.  We have gone years between MD visits and that is fine.

 

I would like to know if there is any study that indicates certain kids are more likely to be treated badly and need monitoring.  I think the combination of disrupted home life and homeschooling would unfortunately prove to be a high risk.  There should be visits of such kids in my opinion.  As an adoptive parent, I went through three years of follow-up visits; it didn't hurt us, and I would have been fine with doing it longer.

Edited December 8, 2016 by SKL

[SKL]

They require it here for school children in general. I don't think a physical is required every single year, but at some regular interval based on the vaccines.  They do have a clinic though that one can use if they can't afford it.   But this really in large part comes down to the vaccinations.  My guess as to why some homeschoolers would avoid physicals are due to objecting to vaccines or they may have trouble finding a doctor who isn't anti homeschooling.  I have a lot of options for doctors and I asked around beforehand to find one friendly towards homeschooling.  So I don't go there and worry about it.  I also don't object to vaccines.  A lot of doctors won't keep patients not willing to do vaccines. 

 

How would the doctor even know if you homeschooled your kids?

[regentrude]

I'm trying to figure out which serious health issues those are because my doctor doesn't test for any health issues.  He has never done blood work.  He has never checked a urine sample.  

Back home, issues checked are:

growth and development

vision, hearing, speech

allergies

teeth/jaw development

fine and gross motor skills, skeleton, feet

skin problems

 

The doctor talks to parents and patient about nutrition, social and behavioral issues, alerts them to suspected learning disabilities, mental health issues, etc.

A lot of problems are much easier to treat if they are diagnosed early.

 

 

He taps their knee.  So maybe if there is some associated problem with that he's checking it.

 

 

ETA: The knee tapping does not check the knee. It checks the patellar reflex, an absence of which can indicate serious neurological disorders.

Edited December 8, 2016 by regentrude

[SKL]

I don't know that I'd call lack of a well child visit neglect. But, I think it ought to be strongly encouraged during the baby - elementary years. Many of the children in Flint who fell through the cracks, years of teachers trying to figure out what was going on, would have been well served by a blood draw long before now. Seriously, given what we know about lead, given that it has come out that in the Midwest where manufacturing was a strong hold for a lot of years and chemical dumping was the norm, lead and heavy metal testing should almost be a requirement, hate to say it.

 

Sigh...

 

This world we live in......

 

And if we would embrace some concept of universal healthcare, we might be able to catch these things sooner because right now many parents have to pay $20-100 co pay or worse for a well child visit. A lot of people fall into that crack of not having it paid for by medicaid, and not having it fully covered or even partially covered by insurance. So making something like this a universally paid for item might help many children. Make blood testing every so many years also free. The pay off in terms of human life saved and tax dollars for future issues could be enormous. Some of what is happening in Flint is just gut wrenching, and it could have been stopped sooner if there was better health care access. Well, that and NOT HAVING A CORRUPT CITY AND STATE GOVERNMENT!  :smash:  :smash:  :smash:

 

So I wouldn't want to see parents punished for not getting them. What I'd like to see is that it is so easy and so cheap to get them that the incentive is pretty big so a much larger percentage of children in their primary years get them, and i'd like to see them include hair or blood testing for toxins.It doesn't always have to be blood work which is of course scary to the child. Hair can be tested for many things as well as skin.

 

How many kids are tested for lead even if they have annual check-ups?

 

I requested a blood test for lead when my kids were preschoolers.  I was concerned as they were adopted from a developing country and one had learning issues.  Had I not requested it, I doubt they would have ever had a blood test.

 

[SKL]

I think the important thing about the doctor is that he/she is a mandated reporter.  It is one of the few people my youngest child sees regularly who is.  His violin teacher is not.  His librarian is not. Our state park ranger and art museum docents are not.  His activities director was, but we don't do that activity anymore.  I am in favor of making sure all kids come in contact with a mandated reporter - but I'm also in favor of revamping our social services system so kids don't fall through the cracks.

 

I agree with this.

 

Edited December 8, 2016 by SKL

[Guest]

I looked it up. A physical is required for students entering grades: 2, 4, 7, and 10. Add one in for K. Nowhere near every year.

Our practice won't even do one yearly unless you have to have it for something specific like a sports physical. And we pay out of pocket for it - it's usually close to $1000 these days because of the number of kids, and we go to the least expensive ANP we could find after the cost became prohibitive with our pediatrician.

 

Yeah. No. Cracking down more on law abiding citizens doesn't stop criminals, it just hurts those who are already trying to follow the law. We have enough oversight to prevent the worst basic educational neglect outside of public schools (I'd like to see some stronger reforms there to prevent some of their biggest issues but that's another thread). I already test, submit work samples, and keep records far and away more detailed than many here, if the education board thread on record keeping is any indication, and I shouldn't have to prove to the state I'm not breaking the law in absence of evidence I am. If there is grounds to investigate that's a different matter.

[MaeFlowers]

In Ga you are required to submit a letter of intent, keep track of daily attendance, and keep a portfolio for every year. The portfolio and attendance must be kept for 3 years and there are certain subject areas you are required to teach and a day is required to contain a certain amount of hours. These things are never checked unless someone reports you or you are going through a custody issue. If you cannot produce the required documents when asked then you will be referred to truency court and your children will be compelled to go to public school. I have seen this happen to a few families here.

 

You are required to keep attendance and write an assessment report but those things are easy to make up. You are also supposed to have your children tested every 3 years. But, none of that matters when no one is checking them unless the family is reported. Children are still falling under the radar. I think there needs to be yearly accountability.

[SKL]

Probably not.

 

It's like eye exams.  In other countries it is good enough to get a prescription checked every other year (or less).  Here they require it yearly. No reason that I can fathom except to charge more money.

 

 

I don't agree with the word "require" here.  AFAIK there is no "requirement" to do anything yearly, but it is recommended.  Nobody comes and takes your kids away if you don't do it.

 

Once I got a all from my then-HMO asking me to set up a well visit for my kid.  The woman said "since it is required annually."  I said, "required by WHOM?"  She backed off and said, "well, er, it's recommended."  So maybe some people think they are "required" to do this when they aren't.

[snowbeltmom]

How many kids are tested for lead even if they have annual check-ups?

 

I requested a blood test for lead when my kids were preschoolers.  I was concerned as they were adopted from a developing country and one had learning issues.  Had I not requested it, I doubt they would have ever had a blood test.

 

 

When my kids were young, I had to fill out a form every year at the doctor's office that asked about the house I lived in.  Certain answers to the questions resulted in the kids being tested for lead.  I didn't live in a home that fell into the "risk" category, so I don't know what type of tests were then performed (I am assuming it was a blood test, but not sure).

 

[SparklyUnicorn]

How would the doctor even know if you homeschooled your kids?

 

They ask a lot of school questions. 

[maize]

I appreciate the reminder about lead testing; it's not something our dr. routinely does but I'd been intending to ask for it for ds4 who regularly eats dirt. I'll be more likely to remember after reading this thread :)

Edited December 8, 2016 by maize

[lauraw4321]

Our practice won't even do one yearly unless you have to have it for something specific like a sports physical. And we pay out of pocket for it - it's usually close to $1000 these days because of the number of kids, and we go to the least expensive ANP we could find after the cost became prohibitive with our pediatrician.

 

Yeah. No. Cracking down more on law abiding citizens doesn't stop criminals, it just hurts those who are already trying to follow the law. We have enough oversight to prevent the worst basic educational neglect outside of public schools (I'd like to see some stronger reforms there to prevent some of their biggest issues but that's another thread). I already test, submit work samples, and keep records far and away more detailed than many here, if the education board thread on record keeping is any indication, and I shouldn't have to prove to the state I'm not breaking the law in absence of evidence I am. If there is grounds to investigate that's a different matter.

 

But Arctic Mama - AL doesn't require ANY of those things you listed.  No testing.  No submitting work samples. Each cover "school" (which you aren't even required to go through is supposed to keep an attendance record). So who would ever notice that something was wrong.  I'm completely sincere in my question. Who would know there's a kid in the basement?

[SparklyUnicorn]

Our practice won't even do one yearly unless you have to have it for something specific like a sports physical. And we pay out of pocket for it - it's usually close to $1000 these days because of the number of kids, and we go to the least expensive ANP we could find after the cost became prohibitive with our pediatrician.

 

Yeah. No. Cracking down more on law abiding citizens doesn't stop criminals, it just hurts those who are already trying to follow the law. We have enough oversight to prevent the worst basic educational neglect outside of public schools (I'd like to see some stronger reforms there to prevent some of their biggest issues but that's another thread). I already test, submit work samples, and keep records far and away more detailed than many here, if the education board thread on record keeping is any indication, and I shouldn't have to prove to the state I'm not breaking the law in absence of evidence I am. If there is grounds to investigate that's a different matter.

 

I'm glad I don't have to pay full price out of pocket.  I probably wouldn't bring them if I did because really I couldn't afford it.  The vaccines are the biggest reason I go.  I often feel like it's a waste of time and money otherwise. 

[Bluegoat]

Yeah, my understanding is that lead is an issue in some settings and not others.  So, some places do it more regularly, some only under particular circumstances.

[SparklyUnicorn]

I don't agree with the word "require" here.  AFAIK there is no "requirement" to do anything yearly, but it is recommended.  Nobody comes and takes your kids away if you don't do it.

 

Once I got a all from my then-HMO asking me to set up a well visit for my kid.  The woman said "since it is required annually."  I said, "required by WHOM?"  She backed off and said, "well, er, it's recommended."  So maybe some people think they are "required" to do this when they aren't.

 

It's required if you want to buy more contact lenses or glasses.  You can't use a prescription that is over a year old.  Not even a week over a year. 

[maize]

I don't agree with the word "require" here. AFAIK there is no "requirement" to do anything yearly, but it is recommended. Nobody comes and takes your kids away if you don't do it.

 

Once I got a all from my then-HMO asking me to set up a well visit for my kid. The woman said "since it is required annually." I said, "required by WHOM?" She backed off and said, "well, er, it's recommended." So maybe some people think they are "required" to do this when they aren't.

She's talking about eye exams. Prescriptions for glasses and contacts are usually only good for one year, so if you need those you have to go back for a new exam every year.

 

In not sure that is law though, I think it is more of a standard of practice for optometrists.

[maize]

Ah, we cross posted :)

[SKL]

It's required if you want to buy more contact lenses or glasses.  You can't use a prescription that is over a year old.  Not even a week over a year. 

 

True - but you can stock up.  :)

 

[mamaraby]

Yeah. No. Cracking down more on law abiding citizens doesn't stop criminals, it just hurts those who are already trying to follow the law. We have enough oversight to prevent the worst basic educational neglect outside of public schools (I'd like to see some stronger reforms there to prevent some of their biggest issues but that's another thread). I already test, submit work samples, and keep records far and away more detailed than many here, if the education board thread on record keeping is any indication, and I shouldn't have to prove to the state I'm not breaking the law in absence of evidence I am. If there is grounds to investigate that's a different matter.

They don't require that in my state. I file a form once a year and then that's it.

 

So, no, we (the global we) do not all have enough oversight to prevent the worst basic educational neglect. State laws are a patchwork and there are large, vociferous groups who oppose even the most basic oversight which just gives abusers space to hide.

[SparklyUnicorn]

True - but you can stock up.  :)

 

 

No, you really can't.  A lot of places will sell you a year's worth.

 

I just buy mine from other countries.

[pinkmint]

I'm not sure how a lady saying she doesn't get around to doing a lot of school with her "very young" children is in the same category as parents who locked and starved a child in the basement.

 

By the way I can assure you a child can be abused while in public school daily. I was forced to perform sex acts at home and went to elementary school not saying anything because the person has threatened me not to.

[SKL]

No, you really can't.  A lot of places will sell you a year's worth.

 

I just buy mine from other countries.

 

But can't you go to WalMart and buy some more?  That's what I used to do.

 

As for glasses, unless we think our prescription has changed, we just keep wearing the old ones until they break.  :P