Article: The U.S. Will Forgive at Least $108 Billion in Student Debt

[TranquilMind]

ah, never mind. these threads are so personally upsetting. Like if someone did not make the same exact choices as you then they are not deserving of a break. I should know better than to read these, mea culpa. 

Looking at a policy rationally instead of emotionally because of how it will affect us personally is exactly what we need to do to make good policy. 

 

Separate the two. 

[SparklyUnicorn]

In my area there is no transportation. One does what recent arrivals do...bicycle, walk, or find someone to give you a ride until you do can afford a vehicle. For one of my sons friends, this meant dropping out of sports, working at mcd throughout high school, and by mid senior year he had his jalopy. Until then, he walked. Out here, rural, high schoolers walk zero to two miles to a school bus stop, depending on the road they live on, so picking a kid up walking is pretty routine.

 

The high schoolers here are sitting in a half day of study hall senior year. The district sends multiple busses by the CC daily, but they wont allow a DE student to use one of the many empty seats, or a student with four study halls to get to a job in town.

 

Yes I got hit by a car riding my bike to work one morning at 5 am.  I stopped riding my bike after that and walked.  Lot of areas are very sucky for bike riding.  And during the winter that would have been impossible. I also had a boyfriend who helped me out, but he worked full time and so not like he was available to drive me anywhere I wanted to go.

 

I couldn't afford a car until after I graduated from college and was able to get a real job.  Which incidentally was also within walking distance.  My salary more than doubled and I was able to buy a car.  I then was able to get a second job and save up more money that I used to help me move out. 

 

I wasn't lacking imagination.  I wasn't lacking a work ethic.  I was lacking a real chance. 

[Guest]

Remember, it takes money OR support to make money in the first place which is something I think a lot of people forget. One thing I like about the area I live in now is that there is some affordable public transportation. I feel WAY WAY better about my kids' options. I had no options. I lived in an expensive area with no way to get around.

With a mcd job, you needed time to save book money, as your grant and scholarships paid for tuition. What if you had worked a few years first? Edited December 1, 2016 by Heigh Ho

[SparklyUnicorn]

Looking at a policy rationally instead of emotionally because of how it will affect us personally is exactly what we need to do to make good policy. 

 

Separate the two. 

 

Some stuff you cannot separate.  It is THAT important and THAT personal. 

 

And I want people to know that REAL people struggle with these things and these people aren't necessarily free loading stuff offs who are too afraid to work hard and unable to make good decisions. 

And one of the biggest reasons I didn't major in something more lucrative was because you can't study math and science and work like crazy and hope to get through it.  I majored in what I majored in because I really did hope to go further with it (I could not afford to) and it was doable under the circumstances.  I would have liked something like nursing, but there were no nearby schools and I could not afford the extra costs of transportation, uniforms, and insurance. 

[SparklyUnicorn]

With a mcd job, you needed time to save book money, as your grant and scholarships paid for tuition. What if you had worked a few years first?

 

I'm sorry I don't think I completely understand the question.  I actually did not go to school right away.  I did save up money.  I did not get any scholarships.  I got some grants, but mostly I got loans. 

 

And on top of that I didn't have parents who encouraged me to go to school.  I don't think they thought it was possible.  My dad had wanted to and had not managed it so he figured I would not either.  The major difference between us was I don't have a mental illness. 

[TranquilMind]

Some stuff you cannot separate.  It is THAT important and THAT personal. 

 

And I want people to know that REAL people struggle with these things and these people aren't necessarily free loading stuff offs who are too afraid to work hard and unable to make good decisions. 

And one of the biggest reasons I didn't major in something more lucrative was because you can't study math and science and work like crazy and hope to get through it.  I majored in what I majored in because I really did hope to go further with it (I could not afford to) and it was doable under the circumstances.  I would have liked something like nursing, but there were no nearby schools and I could not afford the extra costs of transportation, uniforms, and insurance. 

 

Lawmakers have to separate it.  

 

[Sneezyone]

I actually wasn't in a position to save anything before going to school. What little I made went to keep the lights on when my parent ran through a severance package. When I left, they used candles.

[SparklyUnicorn]

I actually wasn't in a position to save anything before going to school. What little I made went to keep the lights on when my parent ran through a severance package. When I left, they used candles.

 

:grouphug:

Damn, that's hard.

[SparklyUnicorn]

Lawmakers have to separate it.  

 

 

I guess I misunderstood.  Mad isn't the govt.  If she is feeling emotional she is feeling emotional.  My middle name is Emotional when it comes to this stuff. 

[TranquilMind]

I guess I misunderstood.  Mad isn't the govt.  If she is feeling emotional she is feeling emotional.  My middle name is Emotional when it comes to this stuff. 

 

I understand.  I'm just talking about when one is discussing policy that will apply to all. 

 

 

[Guest]

I was not in a position to save before college either. Jobs around me were reserved for male teens and required a vehicle to get to. So, I took the loans and lived very very frugally, as my father was quite ill and short term disability doesnt go far. I didnt have to live in my car as an undergrad (which was good as I didnt have one) but I knew a few who did, or who lived in trailers without water and power and dumpster dived. It didnt strike us as horrible, because we knew people who still lived in pine shacks or had dirt floors in their home. I wasnt eligible for any loans after my sib graduated high school and left home. I wouldnt have been able to finish if certain friends and profs hadnt thrown some help my way. I paid that forward.

Edited December 1, 2016 by Heigh Ho

[Ravin]

Lawmakers have to separate it.  

 

 

Yes, and lawmakers look at the big picture. The big picture includes the need for many, many people who would not otherwise have access to higher education to be able to access it. There are more efficient solutions than the continuing cycle of increasing tuition costs and loan costs, such as directly subsidizing the institutions. Many states have been rolling THAT idea back for decades, and most especially since the recession. 

 

If you were able to go to college debt free, and can send your kids to college debt free, that's nice for you. It's not the reality for millions and millions of people, and richsplaining away the validity of the choice to take student loans in order to get an education and thereby maintain middle class status or move into the middle class, does not change the reality that it's the most viable choice actually presented to most.

[TranquilMind]

Yes, and lawmakers look at the big picture. The big picture includes the need for many, many people who would not otherwise have access to higher education to be able to access it. There are more efficient solutions than the continuing cycle of increasing tuition costs and loan costs, such as directly subsidizing the institutions. Many states have been rolling THAT idea back for decades, and most especially since the recession. 

 

If you were able to go to college debt free, and can send your kids to college debt free, that's nice for you. It's not the reality for millions and millions of people, and richsplaining away the validity of the choice to take student loans in order to get an education and thereby maintain middle class status or move into the middle class, does not change the reality that it's the most viable choice actually presented to most.

 

You don't have to be condescending and dismissive.  "Richsplaining"?  Really??

 

You don't know my income; you don't know our choices or sacrifices either.  One of my kids did bust it to learn a foreign language to university level (not easy) and go overseas, both for financial reasons and because the chosen career requires multilingualism anyway.    There are ways to reduce costs but you have to work your butt off for it today.

 

Back in the day, I did get a sweet deal because my dad was a disabled veteran so I got Child of a Disabled Veteran benefits that kept my costs down.  I got a better deal than ACTUAL veterans today, which is really sad.  I'm very appreciative of that benefit, but I would rather have had a dad who didn't have screaming nightmares because a bullet blew off half his face on Normandy. 

 

I knew a guy who got through law school by working full time and going to school 5 nights a week until 9 p.m., paying for classes as he could afford them.  It took him several years, but he did it. 

 

 

[Frances]

The programs which forgive at the 10 year mark do so not because the person is just at 10 years, but because they have worked in the public or community interest for those 10 years. This includes programs for doctors, nurses and teachers who commit to poor urban/rural areas and attorneys who work for community legal service programs or as prosecutors or public defenders. In short, people who accept work in lower-paying yet necessary positions within their profession. Yes, the Federal Government eats the cost of those degrees, but without those programs in place, local and state governments would have to pay higher salaries or subsidize in some other way to keep people in those positions.

While I agree that some healthcare professionals are working in high need areas in exchange for loan forgiveness, many others are now just working for regular nonprofit hospitals in regular communities. My husband works at the local, nonprofit hospital where healthcare professionals are eligible for this type of forgiveness and it is just a regular community hospital in a desirable place to live.

[Guest]

Thats a very good point. Today there is a lot more financial support for nondisabled children of disabled people. It ends at 19, but that has been enough for my childrens' friends to grad high schol at 16, buy and support a reliable vehicle, and be in a college major where they can co-op. And co-op jobs are paying more, not min wage.

[Sneezyone]

You don't have to be condescending and dismissive.  "Richsplaining"?  Really??

 

You don't know my income; you don't know our choices or sacrifices either.  One of my kids did bust it to learn a foreign language to university level (not easy) and go overseas, both for financial reasons and because the chosen career requires multilingualism anyway.    There are ways to reduce costs but you have to work your butt off for it today.

 

Back in the day, I did get a sweet deal because my dad was a disabled veteran so I got Child of a Disabled Veteran benefits that kept my costs down.  I got a better deal than ACTUAL veterans today, which is really sad.  I'm very appreciative of that benefit, but I would rather have had a dad who didn't have screaming nightmares because a bullet blew off half his face on Normandy. 

 

I knew a guy who got through law school by working full time and going to school 5 nights a week until 9 p.m., paying for classes as he could afford them.  It took him several years, but he did it. 

 

Yeah, well, I was near fluent in French when I graduated too, had to go to the UofA up the hill because my HS didn't offer French at that level. It doesn't make up for horrible counseling and no money. My dad was a disabled vet too. Funny how that worked for me. It took him 15 years to get retroactive benefits that covered some college expenses. You know when I was offered that? Two years after I'd graduated. I also attended law school at night while working full time in state gov't in Olympia. I drove three hours a day and got home at 11 every night with a brand new baby. None of the time I spent working in state gov't counts toward forgiveness because it was pre-2005. And the exhaustion of going to school at night after working all day broke me by year three of four. These are not solutions. 

[TranquilMind]

Yeah, well, I was near fluent in French when I graduated too, had to go to the UofA up the hill because my HS didn't offer French at that level. It doesn't make up for horrible counseling and no money. My dad was a disabled vet too. Funny how that worked for me. It took him 15 years to get retroactive benefits that covered some college expenses. You know when I was offered that? Two years after I'd graduated. I also attended law school at night while working full time in state gov't in Olympia. I drove three hours a day and got home at 11 every night with a brand new baby. None of the time I spent working in state gov't counts toward forgiveness because it was pre-2005. And the exhaustion of going to school at night after working all day broke me by year three of four. These are not solutions. 

 

I'm sorry that happened.  Was your dad a later Vet?   This country stood behind WW II vets but the rest have been left to flounder around and that's despicable. 

 

After you graduated, was there any way to apply the retroactive benefits to your college tuition or collect in some fashion?  I'm sure, as an attorney-to-be, you must have pursued this option. Wondering what happened there. 

 

Law school must be very difficult with a baby. I can't even imagine trying, though I knew one mom who kept popping out babies all the way through.  I admired her stamina. 

 

[Sneezyone]

I'm sorry that happened.  Was your dad a later Vet?   This country stood behind WW II vets but the rest have been left to flounder around and that's despicable. 

 

After you graduated, was there any way to apply the retroactive benefits to your college tuition or collect in some fashion?  I'm sure, as an attorney-to-be, you must have pursued this option. Wondering what happened there. 

 

Law school must be very difficult with a baby. I can't even imagine trying, though I knew one mom who kept popping out babies all the way through.  I admired her stamina. 

 

 

My dad is a Vietnam era vet. The retroactive benefits had to be fought for too. VA denied my claim four times. They gave me one year to either use the benefit for grad school or accept a lump sum payout. Over the four years I attended, I would have received a total of $11,600. Benefits in the 90s were not nearly as generous as they are today. I used that to pay for my child's adoption. My employer paid for my graduate degree. For law school I was on my own.

Edited December 1, 2016 by Sneezyone

[madteaparty]

Looking at a policy rationally instead of emotionally because of how it will affect us personally is exactly what we need to do to make good policy.

 

Separate the two.

I'm not in the business of policy making. I'm in the business of reading a homeschooling message board, and I was commenting on how sad I find certain views.

You know how I told you to feel free to skip my posts? Learn to do it.

Also, student loans have worked beautifully for my family, and they won't, nor should they, be forgiven. I'm not stupid enough to imagine that it was because I pulled my immense inner resources. No, it's about luck, and health. But this "do exactly what I do or else go to hell" attitude or "if I choose not to have cake, you can't have bread" type response is what's distressing.

Edited December 1, 2016 by madteaparty

[Ravin]

You don't have to be condescending and dismissive.  "Richsplaining"?  Really??

 

You don't know my income; you don't know our choices or sacrifices either.  One of my kids did bust it to learn a foreign language to university level (not easy) and go overseas, both for financial reasons and because the chosen career requires multilingualism anyway.    There are ways to reduce costs but you have to work your butt off for it today.

 

Back in the day, I did get a sweet deal because my dad was a disabled veteran so I got Child of a Disabled Veteran benefits that kept my costs down.  I got a better deal than ACTUAL veterans today, which is really sad.  I'm very appreciative of that benefit, but I would rather have had a dad who didn't have screaming nightmares because a bullet blew off half his face on Normandy. 

 

I knew a guy who got through law school by working full time and going to school 5 nights a week until 9 p.m., paying for classes as he could afford them.  It took him several years, but he did it. 

 

My tone reflects the tone of the first several posters in the thread who condescendingly dismissed any possibly legitimate reason why people take out student loans.

[TranquilMind]

My dad is a Vietnam era vet. The retroactive benefits had to be fought for too. VA denied my claim four times. They gave me one year to either use the benefit for grad school or accept a lump sum payout. Over the four years I attended, I would have received a total of $11,600. Benefits in the 90s were not nearly as generous as they are today. I used that to pay for my child's adoption. My employer paid for my graduate degree. For law school I was on my own.

 

That's what I figured. Those Viet Nam vets were treated very badly and I'm sorry.

Yes, the benefits didn't cover grad schools of any kind.  I did know that. 

[TranquilMind]

My tone reflects the tone of the first several posters in the thread who condescendingly dismissed any possibly legitimate reason why people take out student loans.

 

But you quoted me, as if *I* were "richsplaining" everything.  I was not.  I do understand that there is no way for some to do it without at least some loans, though I definitely think minimizing that is worth every bit of effort.

 

You should have made your target clear, if you were not addressing me with this richsplaining comment. 

 

[creekland]

My tone reflects the tone of the first several posters in the thread who condescendingly dismissed any possibly legitimate reason why people take out student loans.

 

Well, allow me to add that my family wouldn't be where we are now without student loans.  No regrets - and no shirking duties of paying them back.  Once paid, we've been reaping the benefits ever since.

 

IME, a big key is keeping those debts at a manageable level and not getting starry eyed thinking a school is worth 100K when there truly are other options.

[Crimson Wife]

What about kids who believe they deserve "the best" and accrue 3 times the debt bc they opted for an expensive school over a "lowly" public. Should taxpayers be responsible for funding dream school educations?

 

Should I be forced to attend grad school at a Cal State over one at an out-of-state or private university that offers a specialty track in my area of interest simply because it would be the cheapest option? It would be better for my future patients for me to receive specialty training in working with deaf & hard-of-hearing kids instead of just the "jack-of-all-trades-but-master-of-none" generalist speech therapy master's.

 

It is about receiving the "best" education, but it isn't about prestige. I've gotten a lot of :confused1: reactions when telling people that I'm not applying to Columbia, Northwestern, or NYU but I am applying to the University of Akron, the University of Arkansas, and Fontbonne.

[Guest]

All this does is make dh and I feel like suckers. We stretched grad school loans over 30 years, still repaying. We have never missed a payment, bought cheaper houses, made do with old cars, no vacations, etc. I am sympathetic, but at the same time, I am a little peeved.

 

Could I get a credit on my taxes for holding up my end of the bargain?

Word. I finished repaying my loans in 2015. My husband worked his butt off for months while his friends relaxed and partied so he could pay for school with no loans, including finishing his Masters in Engineering in three semesters, because he couldn't make enough to afford another semester out of pocket. Apparently the joke was on us for trying to plan education expenses responsibly. Sheesh. Edited December 1, 2016 by Arctic Mama

[Guest]

So what do we poor clucks do? Save up our money from our McD jobs so we can avoid loans? Oh wait, that doesn't work. I know first hand it does not. Ok so should they just not go to college? I mean after all, nobody has any business spending money on something they can't afford in the first place. Education included. Those who were stupid enough to not be born into a family with some money don't deserve to go to college.

 

It doesn't take much to rack up debt. It's not always about being stupid with money. Or wasting time on a useless education. A lot of people see it as a means to an end and it often is. It was for me.

 

So yeah some of these attitudes stink quite frankly.

Private loans still exist. It is the government subsidized ones that are a problem, with rates and repayment.

[Guest]

Well, allow me to add that my family wouldn't be where we are now without student loans. No regrets - and no shirking duties of paying them back. Once paid, we've been reaping the benefits ever since.

 

IME, a big key is keeping those debts at a manageable level and not getting starry eyed thinking a school is worth 100K when there truly are other options.

That's my angle too. I am going to a no name local state school a class or two at a time to finish the rest of my degree, paying out of pocket. That's what we can afford. I could go somewhere nicer and more prestigious and more expensive, but we can't swing it. I don't *deserve* a certain level of education irrespective of cost and neither do my kids. I paid off my old loans and am now going while not accruing any new ones, because that was the best option in my case.

 

It isn't that college isn't worth it, or loans can't be used. But they need to not be divorced from the student's ability to pay them back. We told our girls flat out that if college costs don't improve by the time they go they should plan on working for DOT here in this state for ten years, because of the full loan forgiveness program they offer. Just plan it in. It's the most sound option and they are well positioned for employment as girls who will likely have science degrees and are local to this state, all of which stacks the interviews in their favor. We just cannot afford it otherwise and don't want them saddled with mountains of debt if it can be avoided. We will be reminding them of this every year or three as they age :lol:

[SparklyUnicorn]

Private loans still exist. It is the government subsidized ones that are a problem, with rates and repayment.

 

So you think a bank would have given me a private loan when I was 18?  I had no credit history, no collateral, and basically no money.

[Guest]

They did for me. Half my loans were through the local bank here in Alaska (I picked it because it was the one with an ATM in the dining hall :lol:). I opened a checking account and they walked me through taking out the extra loans I needed. I only qualified for maybe 40% of the cost of my education in federally backed loans and the rest was through that bank.

 

I was 18 with no local support, but it worked just fine.

Edited December 2, 2016 by Arctic Mama

[SparklyUnicorn]

They did for me. Half my loans were through the local bank here in Alaska (I picked it because it was the one with an ATM in the dining hall :lol:). I opened a checking account and they walked me through taking out the extra loans I needed. I only qualified for maybe 40% of the cost of my education in federally backed loans and the rest was through that bank.

 

I was 18 with no local support, but it worked just fine.

 

Uh yeah I doubt that would have happened.

 

But really I didn't know about stuff like that at the time. 

 

I was considered an independent student because my parents didn't have the money or credit to borrow money so I had higher borrowing limits. 

[Guest]

Yeah, at that point I'd been cut loose too. It's not ideal by any stretch but it worked out pretty well. I worked through college too, which helped. If I hadn't gotten hitched when I did I'd have probably finished in another three semesters. Oh well.

 

Like I said, for my kids we keep telling them to attend as much here as possible with CLEP and dual enrollment, or even their AA or Bachelors on the cheap local campus. Live at home. Any graduate degree do the best they can for a suitable program and then just plan to do the loan subsidizing/payment program through DOT. It's ten years of your life to paying with labor, but their benefits are phenomenal and entry level pay is often slightly higher than private sector. So they're not only not weathering the cost of their loans but they're making a good paycheck with health insurance paid for, and accruing pension too.

 

My husband worked for DOT right after college and didn't know about the program - he'd have probably gotten a phD and made them pay for it if he had :D

Edited December 2, 2016 by Arctic Mama

[SparklyUnicorn]

Yeah, at that point I'd been cut loose too. It's not ideal by any stretch but it worked out pretty well. I worked through college too, which helped. If I hadn't gotten hitched when I did I'd have probably finished in another three semesters. Oh well.

 

I wasn't cut loose per se, but it was somewhat of a lucky break to be able to be declared independent because I am certain my parents wouldn't have taken out any loans anyway.  Although really that would have been insane.  They had no money.  They could barely make ends meet.

 

But fast forward to now and I'm still paying my loans back.  My older kid may be in school in about 2 years.  I will do what I can to help, but given the fact I'm still paying for my loans it's going to feel extra painful. 

 

The great news though is DH has no student debt of any kind.  He went to school in Germany.  An employer here paid for his master's degree (even books). 

[Granny_Weatherwax]

Uh yeah I doubt that would have happened.

 

But really I didn't know about stuff like that at the time. 

<snip>

I didn't know about stuff like private loans or any loans other than what the school told me I could have. I was a naive, unworldly poor kid who had no idea what real life was like or what was available. Even now, working with my DC, what I thought I knew is incorrect and outdated. So much has changed and I haven't kept up. Now it's not enough to school 'em up and get 'em into college. Now it's about internships, externships, the right clubs, the right degree plan, the right experiences.  Everybody has anecdotes and experiences to share and you're either right or wrong, depending upon the audience. It's overwhelming. I just want my children (and myself) to be happy, employed, self-sufficient contributors. 

[SparklyUnicorn]

I didn't know about stuff like private loans or any loans other than what the school told me I could have. I was a naive, unworldly poor kid who had no idea what real life was like or what was available. Even now, working with my DC, what I thought I knew is incorrect and outdated. So much has changed and I haven't kept up. Now it's not enough to school 'em up and get 'em into college. Now it's about internships, externships, the right clubs, the right degree plan, the right experiences.  Everybody has anecdotes and experiences to share and you're either right or wrong, depending upon the audience. It's overwhelming. I just want my children (and myself) to be happy, employed, self-sufficient contributors. 

 

Yeah I'm not buying into the rat race.  My kid plans to go to the CC and transfer.  He'll get to study what he wants without going insanely broke and he'll have options.  AND he won't have to sell his soul to do it.

 

I'm sure some people will think my attitude is crazy, but there is more to life than all of that.  I don't want to play the game.  He doesn't want to play the game either.

[Guest]

Yeah I'm not buying into the rat race. My kid plans to go to the CC and transfer. He'll get to study what he wants without going insanely broke and he'll have options. AND he won't have to sell his soul to do it.

 

I'm sure some people will think my attitude is crazy, but there is more to life than all of that. I don't want to play the game. He doesn't want to play the game either.

Agreed. We just can't, in good conscience, let our kids start out their lives with two feet in a financial hole if it can be avoided. I really like my CC, the first college I went to, for what's it's worth. The instruction was on par with the state schools I attended after.

[creekland]

Now it's not enough to school 'em up and get 'em into college. Now it's about internships, externships, the right clubs, the right degree plan, the right experiences.  Everybody has anecdotes and experiences to share and you're either right or wrong, depending upon the audience. It's overwhelming. I just want my children (and myself) to be happy, employed, self-sufficient contributors. 

 

FWIW, I see oodles of kids graduate each year and go on to all sorts of futures.  The vast majority end up happy, employed, and self sufficient contributors.

 

It's far more important to look for the path that fits the individual than it is to pre-plan a "set" future.  The way things are now (in 2016) some private top colleges can be less costly for lower income students than community college...

 

My middle son is going to a Top 30 school.  They came in the least expensive for him of those he applied to.  He could have gone to a much lower level college for free (his academic peer did), but by choosing to go where he did (and getting basic student loans to do so), he's had far more opportunities in research and the academics are certainly far more in depth - something he loves and thrives on.

 

No regrets for us with those loans - or the share we've been paying.

 

My other two didn't want research or that much depth.  We're still ok with basic student loans (as are they) and they've enjoyed their colleges too.

 

When one wants to skip the rat race, there's a lot more to choosing a college than "cheap sticker price."  We look for a great fit, both now, and for their future - then work to find something within what we can afford.  To us, the rat race is all about "work, work, work."  We want "enjoy life" (including work).  It's tough to "enjoy life" with high student loans - that's true.  I'd avoid that (we have), but usually there are other options if one looks for them - esp if the student has decent scores.

[SparklyUnicorn]

FWIW, I see oodles of kids graduate each year and go on to all sorts of futures.  The vast majority end up happy, employed, and self sufficient contributors.

 

It's far more important to look for the path that fits the individual than it is to pre-plan a "set" future.  The way things are now (in 2016) some private top colleges can be less costly for lower income students than community college...

 

My middle son is going to a Top 30 school.  They came in the least expensive for him of those he applied to.  He could have gone to a much lower level college for free (his academic peer did), but by choosing to go where he did (and getting basic student loans to do so), he's had far more opportunities in research and the academics are certainly far more in depth - something he loves and thrives on.

 

No regrets for us with those loans - or the share we've been paying.

 

My other two didn't want research or that much depth.  We're still ok with basic student loans (as are they) and they've enjoyed their colleges too.

 

When one wants to skip the rat race, there's a lot more to choosing a college than "cheap sticker price."  We look for a great fit, both now, and for their future - then work to find something within what we can afford.  To us, the rat race is all about "work, work, work."  We want "enjoy life" (including work).  It's tough to "enjoy life" with high student loans - that's true.  I'd avoid that (we have), but usually there are other options if one looks for them - esp if the student has decent scores.

 

I think we are probably on the edge. In the worst place really.  We aren't low income, but we aren't high income...  I do know private colleges sometimes have more money to give out, but where I'm a big jaded is I feel like if they expect all kinds of extra curricular stuff and the student to be super duper, that all costs money up front.  I know, I know, people will say it doesn't have to cost a lot, but it's going to cost some.  And I only have so much.  As homeschoolers it is probably harder because we don't have access to the extras at school either.  And while I think my kid has the potential to do well with testing, etc. I don't know that.  I think it's a lot of pressure.  I don't want to burn him out before he gets there.  Yes, I'm big on avoiding burn out.  I'm very leery on preserving mental health given the family background.  I've seen too many family members crash and burn trying. 

 

But...really the CC down the street is ridiculously affordable ($3700 for the year and this includes transportation costs on top of that).  And since it is so close he'd save on living expenses.  AND he has already started taking courses there.  He's starting his third course in the spring.  And they will count because they are courses required for the major he is interested in.  I don't think it's going to get better than that.

 

 

[MarkT]

 

If you were able to go to college debt free, and can send your kids to college debt free, that's nice for you. It's not the reality for millions and millions of people, and richsplaining away the validity of the choice to take student loans in order to get an education and thereby maintain middle class status or move into the middle class, does not change the reality that it's the most viable choice actually presented to most.

For those like me who had no idea what the term "richsplaining" meant:

http://www.truth-out.org/news/item/27190-you-just-got-richsplained

[creekland]

I think we are probably on the edge. In the worst place really.  We aren't low income, but we aren't high income...  I do know private colleges sometimes have more money to give out, but where I'm a big jaded is I feel like if they expect all kinds of extra curricular stuff and the student to be super duper, that all costs money up front.  I know, I know, people will say it doesn't have to cost a lot, but it's going to cost some.  And I only have so much.  As homeschoolers it is probably harder because we don't have access to the extras at school either.  And while I think my kid has the potential to do well with testing, etc. I don't know that.  I think it's a lot of pressure.  I don't want to burn him out before he gets there.  Yes, I'm big on avoiding burn out.  I'm very leery on preserving mental health given the family background.  I've seen too many family members crash and burn trying. 

 

But...really the CC down the street is ridiculously affordable ($3700 for the year and this includes transportation costs on top of that).  And since it is so close he'd save on living expenses.  AND he has already started taking courses there.  He's starting his third course in the spring.  And they will count because they are courses required for the major he is interested in.  I don't think it's going to get better than that.

 

I've definitely seen kids do well starting at CC too, so I'm not dissing that.  I'm just encouraging folks to consider all options based upon their kids and situation.  My middle son was taking upper level CC courses his junior year of high school.  It wouldn't have been a good college start for him (and his courses didn't transfer either, but we're ok with that knowing the depth difference).  My oldest and youngest took CC courses that counted and they're quite satisfied.

 

There are so many different kids.  There are so many different paths to a successful life.  That's a good thing.  If we all had to hit "one" right path it would be way too crowded.

[JanetC]

Before people get all upset over loan forgiveness, you might try reading the actual policies under which students qualify

 

https://studentaid.ed.gov/sa/repay-loans/forgiveness-cancellation#when

 

I wonder how much of that 100 billion is for for-profit institutions that basically funded themselves with student loans before being shut down by the government for failing to actually provide a useful education.

[Bootsie]

Before people get all upset over loan forgiveness, you might try reading the actual policies under which students qualify

 

https://studentaid.ed.gov/sa/repay-loans/forgiveness-cancellation#when

 

I wonder how much of that 100 billion is for for-profit institutions that basically funded themselves with student loans before being shut down by the government for failing to actually provide a useful education.

I have tried to sort this out.  I think much of this has been either students who went to expensive, for-profit schools and students who started college but never finished.  

 

A growing group appears to be debt for graduate programs.  I am seeing an alarming trend of universities encouraging students to remain for a masters degree.  For some universities, the funding to individual departments differs from undergraduate education and graduate education.  Sometimes schools can charge "differential tuition" for these specialized programs with the department keeping the difference between this and regular tuition.    

[Frances]

These are examples of serious issues that our society should address. I favor educational grant programs, innovative work-study internship programs that cover basic living and education expenses, better vo-tech programs, and funding for mental health issues. Spending money on areas that directly impact a young person's ability to receive education or training to become a self-supporting adult would be much more productive and helpful than programs that subsidize and forgive student loans.

Exactly! Especially because many of the people in the worst debt situations from student loans never even finished their degrees.

[JanetC]

I have tried to sort this out. I think much of this has been either students who went to expensive, for-profit schools and students who started college but never finished.

 

A growing group appears to be debt for graduate programs.

But if you look at the people who are eligible for loan forgiveness, it's not just anyone who didn't finish a degree or who stuck around another year for a masters. Corinthian and ITT took an outsized portion of federal loan money, and if your school was shut down, that is a basis for forgiveness.

 

The masters is almost a requirement to be eligible for a higher pay level in teaching, and there are some loan forgiveness programs for teachers at lower income school districts, so they may be a slice, too.

 

The rules for the income-based forgiveness program require you to pay a certain percentage of your income for 10-20 years, without going into default, which is not the same as letting people walk away from their loans willy-nilly.

[teachermom2834]

The rules for the income-based forgiveness program require you to pay a certain percentage of your income for 10-20 years, without going into default, which is not the same as letting people walk away from their loans willy-nilly.

 

It is a totally valid opinion to think loan forgiveness is unfair to other borrowers or the taxpayers. But this is not forgiveness for people that just did not pay their loans. This is forgiveness for people that have never been in default and who have been making on time payments for 10-25 years depending on the situation and who will have tax liability in the end. While some of it may have been forgiven they have been paying between 10-15% of their adjusted income for at least 10 and up to 25 years. So...while some people will have large balances forgiven most will have paid back a significant amount according to the rules. While I understand people being unhappy about it, those benefiting from the program are not exactly deadbeats and freeloaders.

 

I do not know much about bankruptcy or foreclosures or any such things because we have been lucky not to have a turn of luck that put us there. But it seems like those things can be recovered from eventually. Why is taking student loans the one type of debt for which there is no recovery? Why can someone who goes into deep credit card debt or overbuys on a house have recourse to put themselves back together but the young person who took student loans has no way out?

 

I am not even sure completely how I feel about it but I do know this is not just amnesty for people that have refused to pay their loans.

Edited December 2, 2016 by teachermom2834

[FaithManor]

This made my eye twitch. What a wasted opportunity. Is the school district opposed to DE or the CC? I guess it doesn't really matter; either way those students are missing out on wonderful opportunities.

If her district is anything like mine, the answer is "We want to collect the per head funding and keep it for ourselves, not paying for IB, AP, Honors, DE, or anything else that would help the top 25% of the student body. Remedial coursework in house is cheaper, and we think we can raise our test scores."

 

The end.

 

They.do.not.care.about.the.decently.performing.students.

[FaithManor]

I don't think this will go anywhere under the new administration.

 

That said, I'd LOVE to see an all out assault on the private student loan industry...a financial colonoscopy. End that abuse, and without the private industry to fund tuition/room/board hikes, I think we'd all be surprised how much larger the merit aid pool of money gets because without private loans, and awful lot of middle class kids aren't going to enroll in college. The reality is that $5500.00 is the max Stafford the freshman year. That does not pay the other $23,000 of the University of Michigan bill and a combo of campus job with summer job won't do it either.

[Bootsie]

I don't think this will go anywhere under the new administration.

 

That said, I'd LOVE to see an all out assault on the private student loan industry...a financial colonoscopy. End that abuse, and without the private industry to fund tuition/room/board hikes, I think we'd all be surprised how much larger the merit aid pool of money gets because without private loans, and awful lot of middle class kids aren't going to enroll in college. The reality is that $5500.00 is the max Stafford the freshman year. That does not pay the other $23,000 of the University of Michigan bill and a combo of campus job with summer job won't do it either.

Where would this much larger pool of merit aid come from?  

[JanetC]

That said, I'd LOVE to see an all out assault on the private student loan industry...a financial colonoscopy. End that abuse, and without the private industry to fund tuition/room/board hikes, I think we'd all be surprised how much larger the merit aid pool of money gets because without private loans, and awful lot of middle class kids aren't going to enroll in college. The reality is that $5500.00 is the max Stafford the freshman year. That does not pay the other $23,000 of the University of Michigan bill and a combo of campus job with summer job won't do it either.

 

I agree that private student loans are evil, but if those loans go away, either the quality of instruction has to go down, or the universities have to be funded by taxpayers the way they were in the "old days." Simply dropping the prices would impact the qualify of education.

 

I saw a talk on NBER about the wide disparity in core spending per full-time-equivalent in the US college system. http://nber.org/feldstein_lecture_2016/feldsteinlecture_2016.html Surprisingly, her conclusion was, "students mostly get what the institution is spending on them" (which is different from "what they pay for" because of financial aid). She didn't see signs that institutional money was being spent without producing results for the graduates.

 

Given that hypothesis, I went into my DD's college list (she currently has about 40 schools she's looking at) to see what their core spending per student was (using most recent IPEDS data)

Biggest spender was: MIT - $138,591 per FTE

Smallest was:  University of Minnesota, Duluth $12,697 per FTE

 

Core spending = instruction, student services, academic support, institutional support, using the methodology in the above video. 

 

Selective private schools spend more on their students than the publics, but some public flagships are in the ballpark of the less elite private schools.

 

University of Michigan was $37,068, comparable to Boston University at $38,388

[Bootsie]

 

 

I saw a talk on NBER about the wide disparity in core spending per full-time-equivalent in the US college system. http://nber.org/feldstein_lecture_2016/feldsteinlecture_2016.html Surprisingly, her conclusion was, "students mostly get what the institution is spending on them" (which is different from "what they pay for" because of financial aid). She didn't see signs that institutional money was being spent without producing results for the graduates.

 

Thanks for sharing this.  I just watched it and some of the conclusions are very interesting.  The wide variety of schools in the "non-selective" category is striking.  One suggestion is that to improve the return on education dollars in that group students should have more incentive to choose wisely among those schools; one way to do that is to have students know that they face the consequences of their choices and paying for their education, including paying back loans they incurred.

[creekland]

I agree that private student loans are evil, but if those loans go away, either the quality of instruction has to go down, or the universities have to be funded by taxpayers the way they were in the "old days." Simply dropping the prices would impact the qualify of education.

 

I saw a talk on NBER about the wide disparity in core spending per full-time-equivalent in the US college system. http://nber.org/feldstein_lecture_2016/feldsteinlecture_2016.html Surprisingly, her conclusion was, "students mostly get what the institution is spending on them" (which is different from "what they pay for" because of financial aid). She didn't see signs that institutional money was being spent without producing results for the graduates.

 

Given that hypothesis, I went into my DD's college list (she currently has about 40 schools she's looking at) to see what their core spending per student was (using most recent IPEDS data)

Biggest spender was: MIT - $138,591 per FTE

Smallest was:  University of Minnesota, Duluth $12,697 per FTE

 

Core spending = instruction, student services, academic support, institutional support, using the methodology in the above video. 

 

Selective private schools spend more on their students than the publics, but some public flagships are in the ballpark of the less elite private schools.

 

University of Michigan was $37,068, comparable to Boston University at $38,388

 

Can you link to where you found the individual school information?  I'm at home and the internet we have here is way too slow to watch that video if it's on there.